Build Your Own Arcade Controls Forum
Arcade Collecting => Pinball => Topic started by: MTPPC on May 30, 2013, 04:21:04 pm
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I recently picked up a gottlieb Pioneer in a mild state of disrepair. I got it working good and now the only problem is an occasional lighting of two different match numbers. NBD. I put it up next to my simulator and loaded Pioneer Table on Future Pinball 2.5. These are my conclusions:
1. The rubber on the Future Pinball flippers and posts is not bouncy enough. It makes bouncing the ball from one flipper to the other without touching the button almost impossible. This is easily done in RL.
2. The direction of a caught ball is very difficult to control on the Future Pinball simulation. This is common to most FP tables.
3. The ball speed is very well simulated and accurately represents the RL ball movements.
4. When catching a ball on the RL pinball with an extended flipper, the dead rubber on the FP flipper is almost exactly the same.
5. The sounds of the simulation are almost dead on. Although my loose chime box was a little more clangy and marginal 10 point bumper hits often to not register a chime.
6. The simulation has a slight flipper delay when compared to the real table. This is easily adapted to in the simulation and it was easier to switch back and forth than I expected.
The play of the real life table is clearly superior, but the simulation is extremely immersive. I rotated back and forth playing one ball on each table for an hour or so and I found myself shaking my simulator and looking for nudge buttons on my RL machine. My conclusion is that while the real table is slightly more enjoyable to play, the difference is little enough that the opportunity to play nearly every table on the simulator greatly outweighs the difference in quality of play. It's really too bad that SO76, Pioneer or NYC isn't available in Visual Pinball, or I could have reviewed that as well. I would recommend a simulator for an addition to any real world pinball line-up, but if you only have room or $$ for one machine, that machine should be a sim. I'm saying this from the perspective of having neither force feedback or a real DMD, so I can only imagine how much better that would play.
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z182/phatcaddydaddy/Gottlieb%20Pioneer/IMAG0594_zpsa4a366ca.jpg)
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z182/phatcaddydaddy/Gottlieb%20Pioneer/IMAG0596_zpse57dbf9a.jpg)
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Nice. I'd always wondered if anyone with a vpin had ever compared side by side with the real table. I always thought the simulations were pretty good, but it's nice to see an actual comparison.
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Nice. I'd always wondered if anyone with a vpin had ever compared side by side with the real table. I always thought the simulations were pretty good, but it's nice to see an actual comparison.
I was thinking the same about that.
If you see the vp first you think that's almost the real deal, but now i see why people like the real pinball more.
But one Day I build a mini pinball my own >:D
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It comes down to what you prefer...
Cartoon animation or real life...
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I thought I really wanted a virtual table but after getting a couple real ones I don't think I would be happy with virtual. It would be really nice to play all the tables but the randomness of the real thing will be too hard to replicate in the virtual world.
Sent from my Nexus 4
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That IS the one thing I like about VP...
Getting to see AND HEAR an 'X' amount of tables that I may never see or haven't seen in a long time...
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Same here. VP would be the only way for me to play a number of machines that I would love to. Nothing will replace a real silver ball, but I hope to build a VP some day just because I don't have the funds or space for more than 1 more machine, and I would be able to build a REALLY nice VP for about $4000 or less vs. buying just one mid-90's vintage machine.
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I think people always forget that the purpose of simulation is not to do what you can in real life. It's to do the things you can't... like having a couple hundred machines in your house or like learning to drive a multi-million dollar aircraft or automobile. Simulation is not the real thing by definition. That's why it's sort of funny to see all these guys bad-mouthing it when the don't have a simulator or haven't played on a good one. Of course we would all like to have a basement full of classic pins in like new condition. That's what I am simulating and the haters will never have that. I really posted this topic hoping that others who have done the side by side could report their results, but perhaps there just aren't more than a couple of us in this elite group.
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I know in VP you can adjust the rubber bounce as a parameter- No can do in FP?
How about an AB between your VP and a 90's DMD pin?
Do you thing doing a tactile nudging mod would make a big difference v/s the extra buttons?
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I only have the pioneer and I would also be very interested to see a comparison with a 90s Williams. I have a MS Sidewinder on order to try it without the nudge buttons.
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Sorry, had you confused with Mebronx, guy has a ton of a-list games.
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I think people always forget that the purpose of simulation is not to do what you can in real life. It's to do the things you can't... like having a couple hundred machines in your house or like learning to drive a multi-million dollar aircraft or automobile. Simulation is not the real thing by definition. That's why it's sort of funny to see all these guys bad-mouthing it when the don't have a simulator or haven't played on a good one. Of course we would all like to have a basement full of classic pins in like new condition. That's what I am simulating and the haters will never have that. I really posted this topic hoping that others who have done the side by side could report their results, but perhaps there just aren't more than a couple of us in this elite group.
I hope that you didn't take my post that way. :'(
I was saying just the opposite that I can't afford the space or massive funds to buy and keep a bunch of games, so someday, next to my Theatre of Magic, I will have my own virtual pinball machine for the reasons you mention.
I for one, appreciate your initial post and comparison.
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The magic of VP isn't in the recreations of existing games. It's in new and original games that can do things a real pin cannot do. There are tons of really great original tables for VP/FP that are gorgeous and tons of fun. And anybody who likes pinball can make their own games, play them and share them, and get into the "pinball creation game".
The problem is when someone comes in and decides the only purpose of the simulation is so they can play Medieval Madness and Attack From Mars. Yes, it can do that, but that's not what it does best.
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Agreed. While I only touched on the "1 virtual instead of 100 real" pinball machines, you are correct. There are a number of "machines" out there that only exist virtually, and they are pretty cool even on a computer monitor.
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Sure VP/FP isn't the real thing but it's still damn enjoyable. Otherwise I wouldn't be 4k deep into my vpin build. :laugh2:
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Another great thing about vp is the minimal need for replacement mechanical parts.
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Another great thing about vp is the minimal need for replacement mechanical parts.
Yup. If even a 50th of the physics crunching of FPSs was put into a VP machine.......and old VP is still damn satisfying.
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Thanks for posting your comparison, I've been researching a vpin build myself and I think some of the areas where you noted the experience to be lacking could be made better...
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1. The rubber on the Future Pinball flippers and posts is not bouncy enough. It makes bouncing the ball from one flipper to the other without touching the button almost impossible. This is easily done in RL.
2. The direction of a caught ball is very difficult to control on the Future Pinball simulation. This is common to most FP tables.
From what I've been reading "Future Pinball" isn't as good at emulating the movement physics as the "Visual Pin" based emulators. I realize that most tables are only available in one or the other but it would be interesting to see a comparison based on Visual Pin to see if the rubber issues are resolved.
6. The simulation has a slight flipper delay when compared to the real table. This is easily adapted to in the simulation and it was easier to switch back and forth than I expected.
Anytime you're dealing with LCDs you have the chance of laggy gameplay, I'm curious if you've got your LCD setup for "game" mode, that usually eliminates most, if not all discernible lag. This could also be a factor related to Future pinball itself.
I found myself shaking my simulator and looking for nudge buttons on my RL machine.
Instead of using nudge buttons you can pick up something like the Mot-Ion http://www.ntekgaming.com/mot-ionkit.php (http://www.ntekgaming.com/mot-ionkit.php) that would provide you with an accelerometer bolted to the inside of your cab and all you to translate real life nudges into virtual nudges. (they also have an analog plunger) This would bring your vpin setup one step closer to the real thing.
for a cheaper option I've seen people pick up old Microsoft Sidewinder joysticks as many of these have accelerometers built in and could be programmed the same way. I would suspect you could also potentially use a Wii Remote as well. I've never seen one used in a vpin but they've been hacked for numerous other projects so their use should be well documented.
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Instead of using nudge buttons you can pick up something like the Mot-Ion http://www.ntekgaming.com/mot-ionkit.php (http://www.ntekgaming.com/mot-ionkit.php)
Newest alternative to the Mot-Ion kit is Noah's VirtuaPin Digital Plunger Kit (http://www.vpforums.org/index.php?showtopic=24401&page=1).
Early reviews confirm that the auto-calibration on power-on is solid with none of the jitters and calibration problems of the Mot-Ion kit. :woot
Scott
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Nice! I'll have to keep that in mind when I start my build.
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Instead of using nudge buttons you can pick up something like the Mot-Ion http://www.ntekgaming.com/mot-ionkit.php (http://www.ntekgaming.com/mot-ionkit.php)
Newest alternative to the Mot-Ion kit is Noah's VirtuaPin Digital Plunger Kit (http://www.vpforums.org/index.php?showtopic=24401&page=1).
Early reviews confirm that the auto-calibration on power-on is solid with none of the jitters and calibration problems of the Mot-Ion kit. :woot
Scott
Mine should be on my steps when I get home tonight......woot!
Edit: Shouldn't have said anything......wasn't there when I got home. :badmood:
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I just threw a sidewinder freestyle pro in my galaxy and it works pretty good. First you calibrate it with the windows game controller ap. Then you need to activate analog nudging in the "configure keys" settings in VP. I think I used about a 12% deadzone, flipped the Y axis at 300% and set the X axis gain to about 500%. I'm sure there is more tweaking to do, but for now this is working pretty good. I screwed the stripped PCB down to a thin board and glued and stapled the board to a cross brace in the cabinet. I think I got it for $22 off ebay including the USB converter.
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z182/phatcaddydaddy/Galaxy/sidewinder_zpse9b7d789.jpg)
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I've picked up a few more machines to try this test on, but VP seawitch is terrible and gold ball isn't available. I guess I can try FP seawitch and check it out. Taxi is a fair comparison, but I need to go back and forth a few times to do an accurate review. More to come in the future.
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z182/phatcaddydaddy/Gold%20Ball/IMAG0636_zpsf5e8add2.jpg)
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z182/phatcaddydaddy/taxi/IMAG0652_zpsd0927dd0.jpg)
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z182/phatcaddydaddy/seawitch/IMAG0676_zpsca6bf0ab.jpg)
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I think people always forget that the purpose of simulation is not to do what you can in real life. It's to do the things you can't... like having a couple hundred machines in your house or like learning to drive a multi-million dollar aircraft or automobile.
Exactly this. Very eloquently said!
I'll never have the money to fill a room with every arcade game and pinball machine I want, since it's likely I'd need a house the size of a small warehouse.
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I have a real Addams Family and have it in both Future Pinball and Visual Pinball on my own cabinet.
While Addams Family is a bad tabel to use as an example, due to the physics not being just right on it, as compared to some of the better VP tables..
I still find the play very similar. Getting the thing shot and the right ramp is a LOT easier on the real table, but most of the other shots i can replicate.
My Contactors do not hit as hard or as loud as the real pinball solenoids, but it is close enough to keep me feeling like I am playing a real table.