The NEW Build Your Own Arcade Controls
Main => Monitor/Video Forum => Topic started by: Guywiththegun on May 17, 2011, 11:49:45 am
-
Yeah, I just had to vent. I've pinpointed the problem. Its the monitor. It turns the wide-eyed dreams of my inner-child into the nightmares of the pessimistic bitter adult I've become.
Arcade monitors are not worth what they cost. Not even close. I wouldn't pay more than $200 for one without feeling ripped off. They are ludicrous in price. Don't tell me it makes sense that my 42" 1080p 120hz flat-screen is cheaper than a 27" tube that can't go beyond 800x640 pixels.
Tube TV's are old and outdated. S-Video sucks, apparently, and good luck finding one that will come on with your computer and will stay on the same channel. In fact, good luck finding any without the ---meecrob--- selling it putting a $250 price-tag on it like its 1998. Oh and its so much FUN thinking of ways to mount that monstrosity!
LCD TV's are all widescreen and you might have to worry about lag, just because God hates arcade machines.
LCD Monitors, I'm leaning towards . . frankly because every option is an absolute disaster in its own way, so why not stick with the one that won't make you want to get black-out drunk and forget you ever set foot in an arcade?
As a side-note, as you can see I'm in the market for something to fit into my Kangaroo machine, which I decided to (once again) undertake but is already starting to get under my skin. Advice, comments, etc. are all appreciated.
I'm thinking (and this may sound crazy) of getting a big LCD monitor and turning it vertical. Then I'll play the 4:3 games with the top and bottom of the monitor cut off. I just need to know what size TV would give me a good 20"+ display like that.
-
Start looking on things like Craigslist for a 21" VGA computer monitor? I picked up one for around $30USD a while back. It was a little dim, but an 1/8th turn of the brightness pot on the flyback brought it up good as new.
-
I feel your pain. Buying TVs off of craigslist is hard as the best demo I've gotten is a view of static in the person's house before I bought it, to find out the geometry is off or the colors are bad, or the channel/power return was inconsistent... and try to sell it right back on craigslist. Finally found a 19" tv that mounted right in my pac cab with power return, and I decided that composite video was good enough (it really is), as the set met enough of the requirements to stop looking for the white whale. And learning about different video card sockets (pci-e, etc?) Pain in the :censored:.
Just wanted to commiserate, I think you summed up the monitor challenge well. Only advice I have is that the later Sylvania CRT TVs have been my best luck for power/input return.
-
Welcome to the darkside.
If its an old Kangaroo machine, a 19 inch 4:3 lcd would be a good solution. You can go up to 21.5" on a 4:3 screen and they are cheap used. You can get a 19 inch for under a hundred bucks and a 21.5 incher for under 200.
21.5 inches is PLENTY big enough, especially when you consider most classics were played on 19 inch crt's that probably had 17.5 inches viewable..
Not to mention the weight of the damn CRT screens.
Just get a LCD and don't look back.
-
The problem is I can never settle. You have brilliant people on here and throughout the net posting these amazing machines, making it seem like its easy. It makes you want to go for the best option . . problem is, the best option is $2000 in total, with years of wood-working experience and knowledge in wiring and soldering, etc.
For someone like me who doesn't know how to build a set of shelves, its impossible to match up.
I want my machine to look good and sleek, but I need to accept that its not gonna win any prizes here, or even be celebrated at all here. A self-built arcade machine with an LCD monitor and my Hotrod SE as controls would have made me weep in joy 5 years ago . . what the hell changed?
-
You are just psyching ourself out. Nobody builds a masterpiece with their first build. The most important thing is that it plays games you want, isn't a pain in the ass to keep up, and is acceptable enough in appearance that your wife lets you put it in your house.
The woodworking is a challenge, but go slow, and take your time and you will learn fast enough.
The wiring and soldering are really simple, especially now. Honestly, you can build without soldering a thing
Personally, I think the best looking, sleekest cabs have lcd's in them. But get a 4:3 LCD.
-
I got a dynamo cab, and luckily, I had a 27" CRT lying around with S-video that I didnt need. I decased it and luckily it fit in the frame that came with the cab(it had a monitor, but didnt work) and viola. Everything worked perfectly. The bummer though was getting it into the thing by myself, making sure everything lined up etc. The thing was more awkward than it was heavy, and I didnt discharge it, so I was afraid of getting a jolt. Everything worked out though, but I know what you mean. If that didnt work then who knows, I would just have a pile of junk in my garage :lol.
I do know what you mean about how peoples projects end up looking, most on here put mine to shame. SHAME. But like Donk said, as long as it looks decent, plays the games you want, and is easy to upkeep, who cares. I had to cut a metal CP with a dye grinder in order for it to fit on the cab. I have no wood working skills whatsoever, but hey, sometime down the road Ill make something nice, with LED buttons etc, but for now, this one works.
Hell, I had to rely on a friend to help me with the guts of the actual machine. :cheers:
-
CRTs are definitely for the more die hard enthusiasts. They present a lot more challenges unless it's a reworked existing arcade cab. I think unless you're building a dedicated cab, using NOS, leafs and all OEM stuff, it's just not worth the hassle to be that "genuine" for a MAME cab or something that's going to play multiple games. The sooner you choose which path to head down, the less hassle you'll have down the road.
-
The problem is I can never settle. You have brilliant people on here and throughout the net posting these amazing machines, making it seem like its easy. It makes you want to go for the best option . . problem is, the best option is $2000 in total, with years of wood-working experience and knowledge in wiring and soldering, etc.
For someone like me who doesn't know how to build a set of shelves, its impossible to match up.
I want my machine to look good and sleek, but I need to accept that its not gonna win any prizes here, or even be celebrated at all here. A self-built arcade machine with an LCD monitor and my Hotrod SE as controls would have made me weep in joy 5 years ago . . what the hell changed?
You're doing it all wrong. Find an amusement auction (http://www.google.com/search?q=amusement+auctions) in your area and scout out a working arcade machine.
Basically, you want a good clean monitor with no burn-in, a large control panel, and no water damage or rot at the bottom of the cabinet. If you pick a crappy game that nobody likes, you can sometimes get really good deals.
I picked up my cabinet at an amusement auction. It has a clean 25 inch standard res arcade monitor, a wide 4-player sized control panel, a 4-slot coin door, and the wood on the bottom of the cabinet is in pristine condition. It came with a Capcom shooter called "Gigawing". After taxes and auction fees, I paid $250 total.
At the same auction, cabinets in much worse condition sold for a lot more money because they had desirable games in them. And by desirable, I mean desirable to an arcade operator, not a collector. Neo-Geo cabs sold for crazy money even when they were beat to hell.
Here's what my cabinet looked like after cleaning it up...
(http://mame.3feetunder.com/gigawing.jpg)
After getting my cabinet, I added the following...
1) A PC running MAME
2) Ultimarc ArcadeVGA
3) Ultimarc JPAC
4) USB powered amplifier (a PC speaker hack (http://mame.3feetunder.com/pcspeakerhack/))
5) Two 4-inch shielded arcade cabinet speakers from Bob Roberts (http://homearcade.org/BBBB/parts.html) (the old ones were shot)
-
I actually grabbed a SFII at a warehouse a year or so ago. It was an absolute nightmare. It just wouldn't power on, for seemingly no reason at all. It sucked the life out of me everytime I passed it, and it ended up on CL about a month later. Thankfully, I banished the demon from my home.
I was an idiot to take a gamble like that, not knowing if it worked . . but its made me weary of going with an older used machine. I just KNOW something would stop working a few days in, and nobody, not here, not in real life, would know what was wrong with it. I asked everyone here, electricians, other people in the hobby . . Nobody knew what was wrong with that GD Street Fighter. Sometimes I wish I didn't sell it, but took it out somewhere to throw off a cliff, for peace of mind, knowing it would never harm anyone's soul again.
-
At the amusement auction I went to, every game that was sold as working was able to be powered on so you could check it out and play it. They had the floor open for about 3 hours before the auction started so that everyone could thoroughly check things out.
Arcade cabinets really aren't that complicated. If you convert a JAMMA cabinet to run mame, you pretty much remove all the complicated stuff except for the arcade monitor. There's TONS of information on the web about how to fix arcade cabinets. Plus there's great forums like this one where you can ask questions and get help.
I've been lucky with my monitor. The only issue I has was a failed flyback transformer (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=93411.0). I'm fairly handy with a soldering iron and I was able to replace it myself using a part I purchased from Bob Roberts (http://homearcade.org/BBBB/parts.html). If I couldn't fix it myself, I'm sure I could have found someone on these boards who was fairly local who would have fixed it for me for a few bucks plus pizza and beer. Or, I imagine I could have taken the monitor out and hauled it to a local TV repair guy, though it probably would have cost me a bit more.
Much of it comes down to your level of patience. If you just want to play games without any hassles, then you probably want a PS3 or an XBox 360, not an arcade cabinet. I'm sure I speak for most of the people on BYOAC when I say that half the fun of owning an arcade cabinet is tinkering with it. Heck, I spend more time fiddling with it than I do actually playing games.
-
My frustrations have come from my own ignorance, and dead-ends. It would be a dream to just know exactly what to do, and start doing it. Truth is, there aren't any resources for somebody starting 100% fresh into this sort of thing. Everything seems to be geared towards people with prior experience in wood-working, wiring, or even the machines themselves.
This is something I've wanted for a long time, but I just keep hitting dead-ends. You'd think this was my first monitor/TV for this thing, right? Ha! This is my third. The first was a crap TV that had burn (and had huge speakers on the side . . what was I thinking??). The second was an awesome 4:3 LCD TV, which ended up having this weird bleed . . and tons of burn. It ended up going back. Hell if you add the monitor on the SF I had, that's 3 absolute disasters in Arcade display.
Its frustrating.
I just built my second PC, and one of the things I've learned is you just gotta pick the parts. You can't wait for the next 'deal' or listen to every last person who's got something to say. This is the whole problem. I just gotta move forward. I'm gonna get a 21" 4:3 LCD.
-
21.5 inch 4:3
:)
Love mine
-
My frustrations have come from my own ignorance, and dead-ends. It would be a dream to just know exactly what to do, and start doing it. Truth is, there aren't any resources for somebody starting 100% fresh into this sort of thing. Everything seems to be geared towards people with prior experience in wood-working, wiring, or even the machines themselves.
There are resources for people starting 100% fresh. Check out the book "Project Arcade" by Saint (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=profile;u=167), BYOAC's benevolent dictator... First Edition (http://www.amazon.com/dp/0764556169/?tag=buildyourowna-20) or Second Edition (http://www.amazon.com/dp/047089153X/?tag=buildyourowna-20). Also, you have the entire BYOAC community at your disposal.
The vast majority of us started out not knowing jack about arcade machines. We did our time, reading forums like this one, buying Saint's book, asking questions, and doing research. Eventually, we gathered a critical mass of knowledge and made the plunge.
In my opinion, the easiest way to get a proper start in this hobby is by getting a working JAMMA-wired cabinet and "MAME-ing" it. The ArcadeVGA (http://www.ultimarc.com/avgainf.html) and J-PAC (http://www.ultimarc.com/jpac.html) make the experience as close to plug and play as humanly possible. If that's still too hard, then I don't know what to tell you.
The problem that people see those amazing hand-crafted cabinets on the Internet and they think they can do the same thing with no skills or experience. It doesn't work that way. I understand your frustration, but I can't help but being blunt... this is NOT an easy (or cheap) hobby. It takes a lot of work and you're constantly learning new things, as well as making mistakes and (hopefully) learning from them. If you want something that doesn't take any work, just buy one of the pre-made home arcade cabinets and call it a day. :)
-
21.5 inch 4:3
:)
Love mine
21.3.. the ones with IPS panel are scarce (Philips, NEC and Viewsonic made IPS 21.3 inches). The PVA versions have very nice contrast, but are laggy (45ms input lag). Still available, great looking and FAST, the HP LP2065.
With a good LCD panel, good brightness setting, and decent bezelling, it really does not matter if you mount 16:9 or 16:10 screens. I have a 27 inch screen 16:10 in my cab, and the black of the screen almost goes seamless with the bezel. You really don't mind the black bars left and right. So if you want fancy... try a Fujitsu P27T-6 or Dell U2711
-
I like the idea of getting a bigger LCD that will equal about a 4:3 24" or so . . but is there a cheaper option besides the Fujitsu P27T-6 or Dell U2711? Those prices are out of control!
-
The cheapest you're probably going to do in that size is a 30" 16X9 television or a 28" 16:10 monitor. I think the 16X10 monitors are still pretty pricey, so the TV might be your cheapest route. Issue here will be finding a panel that has good viewing angles.
You might want to consider the Wells Gardner replacement arcade LCDs. You can get a 32" widescreen which would make your 4:3 viewing area just over 26". It comes at a cost though.. the internal dimensions of your cab need to be at least 28" wide. http://patriotgaming.com//catalog/product_info.php?cPath=10_655_969&products_id=4488&osCsid=719b3905570de7b104a186a6ec205a92 (http://patriotgaming.com//catalog/product_info.php?cPath=10_655_969&products_id=4488&osCsid=719b3905570de7b104a186a6ec205a92)
-
The cheapest you're probably going to do in that size is a 30" 16X9 television or a 28" 16:10 monitor. I think the 16X10 monitors are still pretty pricey, so the TV might be your cheapest route. Issue here will be finding a panel that has good viewing angles.
You might want to consider the Wells Gardner replacement arcade LCDs. You can get a 32" widescreen which would make your 4:3 viewing area just over 26". It comes at a cost though.. the internal dimensions of your cab need to be at least 28" wide. http://patriotgaming.com//catalog/product_info.php?cPath=10_655_969&products_id=4488&osCsid=719b3905570de7b104a186a6ec205a92 (http://patriotgaming.com//catalog/product_info.php?cPath=10_655_969&products_id=4488&osCsid=719b3905570de7b104a186a6ec205a92)
If you were going to spend that much on the LCD panel for the 4:3 viewing area, why not get the 29" Makvision SVGA for $100 less?
http://www.xgaming.com/store/arcade-parts-and-accessories/product/weiya-29-flat-screen-crt-arcade-monitor/ (http://www.xgaming.com/store/arcade-parts-and-accessories/product/weiya-29-flat-screen-crt-arcade-monitor/)
I have one of them, I think it looks fantastic. It's large enough that vertical games are large 'full sized' and has enough lines of resolution to display them as such with no loss of resolution. Dreamcast/Naomi games look pretty damn sweet too.
-
Still far too pricey, but thanks. How about a 24" monitor? Would the 4:3 size be about a 21"?
-
A 24" will give you more like 19.5:
http://www.displaywars.com/24-inch-16x9-vs-19,5-inch-4x3 (http://www.displaywars.com/24-inch-16x9-vs-19,5-inch-4x3)
(http://www.displaywars.com/comparisons/24-inch-16x9-vs-19,5-inch-4x3.png)
Here's a 27" for $260 after a coupon good until 5/23:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824016155 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824016155)
That would give you around 22" of 4:3 space:
http://www.displaywars.com/27-inch-16x9-vs-22-inch-4x3 (http://www.displaywars.com/27-inch-16x9-vs-22-inch-4x3)
(http://www.displaywars.com/comparisons/27-inch-16x9-vs-22-inch-4x3.png)
-
Awesome link! I was looking for something like that.
If you go to 24" 16x10, it seems to equal the height of a 21" though. Isn't a 24" monitor 16x10 rather than 16x9?
-
If you go to 24" 16x10, it seems to equal the height of a 21" though. Isn't a 24" monitor 16x10 rather than 16x9?
Depends on the make and model. I have seen 24" in both aspect ratios
-
http://www.displaywars.com/24-inch-16x10-vs-21-inch-4x3 (http://www.displaywars.com/24-inch-16x10-vs-21-inch-4x3)
(http://www.displaywars.com/comparisons/24-inch-16x10-vs-21-inch-4x3.png)
Yeah, a 16:10 24" will have a ~21" 4:3 space (0.94% smaller diagonal).
-
If you go this 16:10 route look for resolutions of 1920X1200 (as opposed to 1080).
Here are the ones from Newegg. I don't know about lag on these larger LCDs, but something to keep in consideration before purchasing. Also the viewing angle.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100007617+600030619+600012349&QksAutoSuggestion=&ShowDeactivatedMark=False&Configurator=&IsNodeId=1&Subcategory=20&description=&Ntk=&CFG=&SpeTabStoreType=&srchInDesc= (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100007617+600030619+600012349&QksAutoSuggestion=&ShowDeactivatedMark=False&Configurator=&IsNodeId=1&Subcategory=20&description=&Ntk=&CFG=&SpeTabStoreType=&srchInDesc=)
-
Why no 1080? Is there some kind of problem with it?
I found an awesome deal for an Emachines 23 inch monitor ($100 after Staples coupon), but its 16.9. Using displaywars, a 21 inch 4:3 actually looks way bigger in comparison. Who knew that made such a difference?
-
1920X1080 is a 16:9 aspect
1920X1200 is a 16:10 aspect
Just trying to show you how you can tell if it's one or the other. A lot of places just have the resolution listed.
-
Why no 1080? Is there some kind of problem with it?
I found an awesome deal for an Emachines 23 inch monitor ($100 after Staples coupon), but its 16.9. Using displaywars, a 21 inch 4:3 actually looks way bigger in comparison. Who knew that made such a difference?
A reason to go with the higher resolutions would be the DPI of the image you'll be looking at.. The higher the resolution (at the same physical size), the smaller the pixels. The smaller the pixels the control you have over the look of various 'filters' and 'scanlines'.
Since a monitor cannot be 'upgraded' without being replaced, if you can spare the extra money for a higher resolution screen, it's probably worth it. You will be standing closer to this monitor than you would a regular television, so the individual pixels would be easier to see.
-
If you can do the 24" 16:10 ratio you can find a few new @ ~$300
If not, that's why many people move to the 20" 4:3 monitors. Two monitors that come to mind are the HP LP2065 and the Dell 2007FP. Both can be had on ebay used fairly reasonable. <$200 There was a deal over at Geeks.com for some refurbed 2065's @ $89 + shipping. They are now sold out, but it's a good place to watch for refurbs.
Remember, the 24" only gives you 1" over the 20" 4:3 aspect, but the drawback is the added width of the cab's interior. If you are rotating the monitor, this is a deal breaker unless you have a wide cab.
-
Yeah, looks like going to 16:10 is a big price increase. There are some floating around ebay for <200 but spending that much on something used seems like a gamble.
Man, it would be sweet to go from 4:3 classics to full 24" Street Fighter 4 though (and other newer games).
The 20" 4:3 refurb sounds great. I actually just found that thread, but yeah, sold out . . I'm not sure I wanna deal with painting it black anyway.
I'm keeping an eye on this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/310319560650?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%3A80%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_from%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dp4712.m570.l1313%26_nkw%3D310319560650%26_sacat%3DSee-All-Categories%26_fvi%3D1&_rdc=1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/310319560650?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%3A80%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_from%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dp4712.m570.l1313%26_nkw%3D310319560650%26_sacat%3DSee-All-Categories%26_fvi%3D1&_rdc=1)
I'm just gonna keep an eye out for a good 20", 21.3" in 4:3 or a 24" in 16:10. I think I'd be happy with any of those.
-
"Arcade cabinets really aren't that complicated. If you convert a JAMMA cabinet to run mame, you pretty much remove all the complicated stuff except for the arcade monitor. There's TONS of information on the web about how to fix arcade cabinets. Plus there's great forums like this one where you can ask questions and get help."
+1
I'm into my nephews' mame for $350. $200 on UMK3 and roughly $150 in JPac, video cards, etc. Also, I have the board to sell (which seems like it'd go for around $100 on ebay - which I'm planning to keep in case I'd like to convert it back at some point). Anyway, it's got a 25" WG monitor and even I was able to pull it off (after a bit of trouble). Not a bad way to go to save yourself a lot of headaches... My only regret was not holding out for a 4 player...
-
That sounds like a wonderful option, but for me personally, it turned out to be an even bigger nightmare than this Kangaroo cab. I've had my fill of poking around in decades old electronics. I'll just stick to poking around in decades old wood. (there's a joke in there somewhere)
-
Ha ha. Either way, I'm a big fan of this thread. Glad to know I'm not the only burnt ass...
-
Yeah, this thread has been therapeutic for me. Its got me settled on an LCD, and I needed a change from the usual "scrap wood to BEST ARCADE EVER in 3 pages" threads. Not that those aren't awesome threads, just frustrating when you have an empty cab sitting in your basement for 2 years that you don't know what you're doing with . . meanwhile people are busting them out in a weekend!
-
There was a deal over at Geeks.com for some refurbed 2065's @ $89 + shipping. They are now sold out, but it's a good place to watch for refurbs.
That is a very recent change. They were available at HP one month ago. But I do not see them any more. Holy crap: what a bad website they have! Does not work at all.
-
UPDATE.
Grabbed this off fleabay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&rt=nc&nma=true&item=290567932866&si=XuHZOVF85HJm5sOrS3hE19aIUKg%253D&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&rt=nc&nma=true&item=290567932866&si=XuHZOVF85HJm5sOrS3hE19aIUKg%253D&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT)
Any thoughts?
-
http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-SyncMaster-245BW-24-inch-Monitor/dp/B000P6MOG2 (http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-SyncMaster-245BW-24-inch-Monitor/dp/B000P6MOG2)
the reviews on amazon seem to have an agreeable distribution.
-
just get a TV from a pawn shop (dirt cheap, they practically give them away) and use s-video. The picture quality is totally acceptable for MAME. Only the hard core video phile people would complain. If your PC doesn't have s-video out, buy a graphics card with s-video for $40 off newegg.. You would have no problem doing everything for under $100.
I guarantee the results will be better than a LCD.
-
i posted without reading the whole thread. apparently you bought an LCD. I still stand by my post though. a widescreen LCD will never look as good as a 4:3 CRT, even with s-video.
-
I came to the conclusion that there are drawbacks and advantages to each choice, and just went with the one I felt suited me best. For old arcade games, my ideal choice would be an arcade monitor, followed by a TV, but I don't want to get into de-casing or mounting or building a shelf. I just don't have the knowledge yet. Beyond that, with the advantages of an LCD (hi-def, newer games in full 24" wide-screen, hi-res front ends and programs, easy to install, fool-proof, etc), I can live with just throwing up a MAME RGB effect for the old classics. Its just something I had to settle on.
If I had decided on a TV, right now I'd be scratching my head wondering how I'm gonna get that thing into that little Kangaroo machine, with the same indecision and confusion that has stalled me for 2 years. Maybe after this project is finally done, somewhere down the line, I'll consider something different with the knowledge I will have surely gained . . but to be honest, once I jump from classic Street Fighter II in 21" 4:3 to high resolution Super Street Fighter 4 in full 24" wide-screen with a few button presses, I think I'll be ok with the choice.
-
Apparently you're raging like a madman at CRTs but have you ever considered that given an ArcadeVGA you could pick a RGB to YPrPb transcoder and use just ANY SDTV CRT and it will look just as good as an arcade monitor? At least as far as Neo Geo goes it would be very close to pixel perfect. Neo-Geo runs at 320x224, if you use such setup, you would get 320x240. Other games would have to be scaled or centered but still, it's a nice alternative for arcade monitors, which are costly and hard to do maintance. I'll be picking up that setup soon, as soon as I'm a full member I'll post a WTB at Trade/Sell, I could then post some results. I'll use a 38" Sony CRT TV through YPrPb (S-Video DOES SUCK). :notworthy:
-
Half of that is Greek to me. I'm nowhere near that level.
-
I'll break it out to you:
Arcade monitors have scanlines and a fluid picture because they have half the horizontal frequency of a regular VGA monitor.
That is, the VGA has 31 khz and the arcade monitor has 15 khz.
An RGB signal from ArcadeVGA, SuperNES, Saturn, is always 15 khz, the resolution usually is 320x240 non-interlaced (runs at 60 frames per second, the most recommended) or 640x480 interlaced (runs at 30 frames per second, avoid if possible for arcade games due to flicker).
Now any Standart Definition CRT TV has 15 khz BUT your problem is: you can't input RGB because in North America there's no RGB connection. So what you have to do, is pick your RGB connection and a converter (not an adapter, there's a need to change the nature of the signal) to make it compatible with your TV. That would be the SCART RGB to YPrPb converter.
A member in shmups system11 told me it would work and i'm investing toward this setup. Let's pick two cenarios:
1) SDTV + ArcadeVGA + RGB to YPrPb
Neo-Geo (320x224) would run at 320x240 and at the correct frequency. It would have NATURAL scanlines.
2) LCD + regular VGA
LCD are bad. The reason is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed_pixel_display (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed_pixel_display)
Fixed pixel displays are display technologies such as LCD and plasma that use an unfluctuating matrix of pixels with a set number of pixels in each row and column. With such displays, adjusting (scaling) to different aspect ratios because of different input signals requires complex processing.
In contrast, the CRTs electronics architecture "paints" the screen with the required number of pixels horizontally and vertically. CRTs can be designed to more easily accommodate a wide range of inputs (VGA, XVGA, NTSC, HDTV, etc.).
It means: LCD has only one resolution whereas a CRT has many. If you input something low-res at the LCD, it will have to scale it, and scaling is bad.
Not only that, as you're drawing 15 khz games at 31 khz, your scanlines will be gone and you'll have to emulate them with MAME or with an external box like SLG3000.
And by the way, don't dissamble a CRT monitor. They are VERY dangerous and could get you killed.
-
I've been trying out MAME on my LCD with the various filters and it looks fine to me. In fact, I had a hi-res bezel around filtered Donkey Kong and it looked amazingly real.
There is very little return for going with a CRT, IMO, unless you have an easily mountable one just sitting around or you REALLY know what you're doing (which I don't). Your last sentence is yet another reason I opted out of CRT. Bad enough I'm clueless . . I don't want to be clueless about something I need to handle like a land-mine.
I just want to get this thing done and play arcade games. I'm happy with my choice. Paralysis by over-analysis is a hell of drug.
-
I still stand by my post though. a widescreen LCD will never look as good as a 4:3 CRT, even with s-video.
Here it looks way better ;D
-
2) LCD + regular VGA
LCD are bad. The reason is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed_pixel_display (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed_pixel_display)
Never use LCD with VGA. That is the dumbest ever.
And Fixed Pixel is no problem. The game we talk about here are in the 240x320 range. On a 1200x1600 it means all pixels are 5x5 pixels, on a fullHD 4x4. Who cares? The stunning pixel art will shine in all its blocky awesomeness. Throw in some wide gamut (which was never available in CRT) and these games shine like they have never done before. If wide gamut LCD's were standard in the eighties, they would not have used CRTs at all. It's a myth that scanlines and fuzzyness are ON PUROPSE. It's just a limit of tech at that time. The prove of this is the Atari 2600 and Colecovision. Way blockier than 480i was asking for. These consoles also had 4x4 pixel blocks! Second prove: have a kid watch an old game on the original cab and on my 27 inch PVA display. He will prefer the second. Kids are insensitive to nostalgia, and just pick the best, following the purest desires possible. They take the game for its game play and choose the best display to view it on!
-
developers DID design graphics to take advantage of the unique characteristics of CRT's. As a result, they do not look as good on LCD's. There is also the issue of lag that LCD monitors have. I acknowledge that some people don't care and prefer LCD's, and I admit LCD's are more convenient because of they're size and weight compared to CRTs.
I first had an LCD in my cab and it wasn't horrible by any means, but after switching to a CRT I would never go back. You also have the issue of finding a large 4:3 aspect LCD. For the size of my cab for instance, it would be impossible to find a 4:3 LCD that would fit and fill it out properly, whereas a 28" CRT is easy to find and cheap.
-
They aren't easy to find by any means. The ones I see are either far too old and lack proper input for good PC use, or they have massive speakers on each side making it impossible to fit into a cab.
-
They aren't easy to find by any means. The ones I see are either far too old and lack proper input for good PC use, or they have massive speakers on each side making it impossible to fit into a cab.
I'm still with you on this. I appreciate the strategies outlined in this thread, but I agree that the display aspect of my arcade project was one of my most frustrating and the thing I felt I had the least control over, unless I wanted to throw a ton of money at it.
-
CRTs are old tech and going the way of the dodo bird. Even if you like it better, buying and maintaining one is only going to get more difficult as time goes on. We live in a digital world, and panels of glass that turn into monitors is the wave of the future. The sooner you make the transition, the less pissed off you'll be when your beloved CRT dies.
-
CRTs are old tech and going the way of the dodo bird. Even if you like it better, buying and maintaining one is only going to get more difficult as time goes on. We live in a digital world, and panels of glass that turn into monitors is the wave of the future. The sooner you make the transition, the less pissed off you'll be when your beloved CRT dies.
My grandma is old and cost more than she did in her 20s... I think we should transition to a new family member.
Just kidding guys! :)
Of course you are right... CRTs are dying and digital will soon be our only option. However, until then I'm going to try and suck the last drop of joy out of them.
-
Building a nice, 'square' cab isn't hard. A table saw, a radial arm saw, and a mounted router, and you're good to go. However, these are pricey items/rigs, and take a lot of space.
Monitors aren't difficult, either. Knowing how they work and what features various models have are crucial before even thinking of going to look at one. There's information in the wiki here, as well as at KLOV and other places. Researching is crucial. If you don't have the patience for at least this, really don't bother.
-
They aren't easy to find by any means. The ones I see are either far too old and lack proper input for good PC use, or they have massive speakers on each side making it impossible to fit into a cab.
I guess it depends on your area. There is a pawn shop a few minutes away from where I live that has a whole wall of CRT's ranging from 22 to 32 inch. I got a 27" panasonic with s-video and component inputs for $50. I decased it and threw in my candy cab (i broke the original monitor neck. :badmood: :banghead: :angry:).
But it ended up working out fine. I have my PCB's going through a s-video converter (decent quality, but not arcade perfect) and my 360 through component (very good quality) in the cab.
-
Building a nice, 'square' cab isn't hard. A table saw, a radial arm saw, and a mounted router, and you're good to go. However, these are pricey items/rigs, and take a lot of space.
Monitors aren't difficult, either. Knowing how they work and what features various models have are crucial before even thinking of going to look at one. There's information in the wiki here, as well as at KLOV and other places. Researching is crucial. If you don't have the patience for at least this, really don't bother.
You know how a lot of the information on this hobby goes? Like this:
"A table saw, a radial arm saw, and a mounted router, and you're good to go." It is full of holes, takes huge leaps, and generally just starts from an assumption that you already know what you're doing, just not 'quite' there, as opposed to being a full on beginner in all things wood-working.
-
Sounds like it's time to get a few simple tools and just start cutting wood. Learn as you go.
-
You know how a lot of the information on this hobby goes? Like this:
"A table saw, a radial arm saw, and a mounted router, and you're good to go." It is full of holes, takes huge leaps, and generally just starts from an assumption that you already know what you're doing, just not 'quite' there, as opposed to being a full on beginner in all things wood-working.
Well, again you seem to want to quantum magically 'know' how to saw things. That's fine, it may not be too far off. As for experience and skills, I had some shop in high school, and haven't done much else since then. But again, the internet is a great place to cheaply find novice wood working info.
And, in contrast to my statement about tools, check this (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=43568.msg1188019) out. Also, you might want to see my recent addition at the end.
Although, you are kind of busy getting attention here. You might not want to leave.
-
developers DID design graphics to take advantage of the unique characteristics of CRT's.
That accounts only for a small space in gaming-time: the 16-bit era (1986-1990). 8bit games had too few colours and too slow processors, so stuff is just blocky and candy-coloured and looks like that on a CRT and even brighter, more colourful and blockier on an LCD: pefect! After that, video sections became capable of colour maps 64-4096 colours, so dithering in graphics was introduced. These dithered games are the only few who look better on CRT. After that, 256K and 16M colour was getting common, 640x480 or higher resolutions were introduced so the dithering went away. These true-colour games were made for rom-based or disk based systems (no longer single game PCB's) in various cases with various displays, and they also look great on LCD.
That so called lag is there with LCD's, but with the right ones it is no problem: good IPS screens have 5-15ms lag, which our brain compensates for automatically (we have to signal our own muscles also a bit in advance!).
-
Well, again you seem to want to quantum magically 'know' how to saw things.
I want to know where to start. Everything I find starts 10 steps in, even the link you posted.
Its no problem, all this info is free and given by people just trying to help, but lets not pretend the vast majority of information on this hobby doesn't build from a foundation of previous experience.
-
I want to know where to start. Everything I find starts 10 steps in, even the link you posted.
Its no problem, all this info is free and given by people just trying to help, but lets not pretend the vast majority of information on this hobby doesn't build from a foundation of previous experience.
I have built a lot of furniture for my wife over the past fiew years. The very first piece I built was a country hutch that I designed. My wife often tells guests that I built the piece and one of the questions that continues to come up again and again is, "Where did you learn woodworking?" There is an assumption by some that you must know how to do something before you can do it. I tell folks, I had zero experience building furniture before this piece. I didn't take woodshop in high school, and I didn't grow up watching anyone do this sort of thing. I learned to build the hutch by building the hutch.
Take cotmm68030's advice... pick up a circular saw or jigsaw and maybe a mid-range router and start making sawdust. You'll learn fast. :)
-
2) LCD + regular VGA
LCD are bad. The reason is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed_pixel_display (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed_pixel_display)
Never use LCD with VGA. That is the dumbest ever.
And Fixed Pixel is no problem. The game we talk about here are in the 240x320 range. On a 1200x1600 it means all pixels are 5x5 pixels, on a fullHD 4x4. Who cares? The stunning pixel art will shine in all its blocky awesomeness. Throw in some wide gamut (which was never available in CRT) and these games shine like they have never done before. If wide gamut LCD's were standard in the eighties, they would not have used CRTs at all. It's a myth that scanlines and fuzzyness are ON PUROPSE. It's just a limit of tech at that time. The prove of this is the Atari 2600 and Colecovision. Way blockier than 480i was asking for. These consoles also had 4x4 pixel blocks! Second prove: have a kid watch an old game on the original cab and on my 27 inch PVA display. He will prefer the second. Kids are insensitive to nostalgia, and just pick the best, following the purest desires possible. They take the game for its game play and choose the best display to view it on!
Even if you do happen to set resolution to 1200x1600 you would still have the LCD's native resolution. It is a fixed pixel display, no matter what resolution you set it, it has only one. If the native resolution were to be 1200x1600 (which dare I say it's rare, very rare, never seen one) then maybe your scaling would be fine, but the pixel art would be very messed up. So yeah, in the avarage-Joe's LCD even if you did set that resolution, the LCD would scale it to the native resolution and destroy the image quality as a result.
The reason that CRTs are better is because they "don't have resolution" meaning that whichever resolution you input, as long as the CRT is able to draw horizontally and vertically at the given refresh rates, you will obtain a pixel perfect native resolution image. That's why it's an analog display. Some really fast games like F-Zero GX, Third Strike and Counter-Strike are barely playable on LCDs. Trust me, I have a Plasma, 120 hz input LCD and a CRT and the CRT beats the other two by a wide margim. Third Strike in a 240p TV turns parrying WAY easier. Combo that with a Sanwa joystick and you're in heaven as far as fighting games go.
It is true that space is the biggest issue with CRTs, can't be helped though. :dunno
Edit: And by the way, I don't know if you're into consoles but at consoles having to scale 320x240 or 640x480 interlaced (deinterlacing will be necessary) is ill-advised at best. I tried to scale ICO which is 320x240 non-interlaced to 1024x768 for my FPD 42" Plasma and it looked horrible. Much better on the CRT, and the CRT had natural scanlines.
-
I have to agree with others that you need to physically do some of these things with some tools in hand in order to master the skills. If you don't have the time, money, or tools for this, perhaps you're better off buying a kit that you could assemble. There's a lot of great stuff out there and you just need to assemble it. I agree with you, a lot of people take it for granted that you know how to do this cut, or that cut, this design or that design. It's a little daunting, and unless you're the type of person who is really into having these skills and perhaps using them for projects around the house, perhaps it's better to just not bother with mastering them. Building your own cab from the ground up is no simple task. As an experienced woodworker, I would not say it's the most complicated thing, but there are some complexities to it.
-
Oh I wouldn't start with a full cab. But even just to be able to build a CP would be amazing to me. Even putting in shelves in the cab, and making the monitor mount myself. That's all I need right now. I already have an emptied out Kangaroo cab.
But thanks, its nice being heard.
My Father knows some wood-working. This saturday we're supposed to 'work on it.' (I don't even know enough to know what to 'work on'). I'm gonna pick his brain I guess.
I agree with you, a lot of people take it for granted that you know how to do this cut, or that cut, this design or that design.
Yes! Exactly this.