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Amiga: To use actual hardware or Emulate

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Xiaou2:

 Strange.  My A500 Never crashed.   It was my C64 that locked up all
the time due to poor floppy drive manufacturing / quality.

 As for the Space Harrier comparison, I agree that programming has
some to do with it... However, you must remember, that the limits
of a machine drastically alter exactly what a programmer can do...and
thus there are REASONS why they couldnt make it look / sound better.

 For example... They Could have made the ST version
sound much better... but then they probably would have had to
cut back on the games graphical details... Otherwise, they may not
have had the processing power/ram to make the game play fast enough.

 Another example: The Amiga could do "1024" color mode... but, you couldnt use that in scrolling games.  Only for art programs, and static snapshots basically.

 As a programmer, you have to consider the onboard ram
(how many objects / sounds / and code the system can hold onto
at one time) , processing power  (Too many objects, or things at once,
could slow the game to a crawl) , media limitations (How many floppies?
Load times? Ram limitations...)

 Generally, you can see by example after example, that Amiga clearly
can outperform the ST. in overall processing power.  The only case
where that may not be true is when someone does a poor job in
programming the Amiga.  However, get the same programmer on
both machines... and he could make the Amiga version do much more
than the ST. hardware could handle.

---

 jukingeo,  TFII = Thunderforce II.   Probably one of the Best
Shooters (Shumps)  of all time IMOP.

 The game has Top and Side view levels (They alternate each level).
Many people didnt care for the Top view sections. Admittedly, they
are a little clunky.  Still, I thought they were a nice change of pace,
and added some additional challenge.

 The game really does shine however, on the Side view stages... which
are detailed, fast, furious, and fun as hell.

 Unlike most shooters, the games balance is extremely good.  IE: If you
get killed in a high level, your basic weaponry is still great in taking
out the enemies.   And, as long as you have enough men behind you,
if you crash, you keep scrolling forwards.  (No horrific mid-level restarts)


Sadly, I cant find any 'good' vids up.  This one is blurry / low quality.





jukingeo:

--- Quote from: Loafmeister on December 15, 2009, 01:13:24 pm ---The Amiga was an amazing system but we're talking about a computer who's majority of classic games are anywhere from 15-20 years old, and thus have aged quite a bit compared to most other computers/consoles released since.  Because of this, and because software emulation works darn good for most of the classics, I'd say stay with the emulation solution. Keep in mind, like any advanced hardware, nothing beats the real thing as opposed to emulation.  But like any system we emulate, there's always some compromise and imho the level of emulation on the Amiga really is high enough that compromising is kept to a minimum.
--- End quote ---

Right so.  Usually older systems DO emulate well.  I have Stella for my Atari 2600 games and everything is on my computer.  Most of the games play spot on without any speed or sound issues, BUT there is the occasional game that causes a hiccup or two.  But the Atari 2600 is also great from the hardware point of view.  You could cobble together something using an old 2600 or something newer such as a Flashback 2 system.  Heck I have even seen an entire Atari built into a classic 2600 joystick!


--- Quote ---I'm in the midst of reconfiguring my arcade cab and you can betcha I'll have an Amiga section so I can give it the odd Amiga originals some good playtime; great games like: Apidya, Battle Squadron, Project X, Blood Money, Alien Breed 1 & 2, Speedball 2, Turrican 1 and 2, Stunt Car Racer, Nebulus, Rick Dangerous 1 and 2, Typhoon Thomson, Xenon 1 and 2, Prince of Persia, Killing Games Show, Shadow of the Beast 1 and 2 (probably with cheats, Xiaou2 is right :) ), Zany Golf, Silkworm (there was an arcade version but I loved it to death on my Amiga :) ), SWIV, Lotus 2, Flood, Rocket Ranger, James Pond 1, 2 and 3 and yeah, Lemmings.  Heck, I might even try and play Wings on it, I don't think it's too keyboard dependant. :)
--- End quote ---

That was another issue too.  Since I never had an Amiga, did it have some kind of game controller or is it pretty much like a PC with a keyboard and/or mouse?  I would assume it was more like the latter.  However, the older Atari computers such as the 800, DID have regular 9pin game ports to use with their joysticks.

As for the original games for the Amiga, I wouldn't know.


--- Quote ---Anyway, I think most of those are Amiga originals or if they were multiplatform, the Amiga release was one of the better versions.  There might of course be some exceptions due to personal preference but these have aged pretty good (minus maybe a 3d game like Stunt Car Racer but any self-respecting Amiga fan will look past its dated look and just enjoy the gameplay :)). Whatever the case, there were many, many more quality releases but either my memory fails me and I'm forgetting them (believable!) or they were too dependant on keyboard control or just don't fit into my own definition of what's playable on a cab, IE: an adventure game.
--- End quote ---

That is the one shortcoming when it comes to controlling computer games and that it is never consistent and you have to always map the controls.  It isn't a biggie, but it can be tedious.  Whereas a console system, once you have the right controller, that is it.


--- Quote ---Enjoy the Amiga world, it's never too late to play great games.
--- End quote ---

Hmmm perhaps I will revisit it, but I am looking to create a small cabinet with something quick and easy to set up.  I think I might be better off with a console, BUT the clincher with a console is how faithful it is to the original arcade version.

I know that a good console to set up in an arcade style cabinet would be the Sega Genesis.  There were MANY games that were of arcade quality and the Genesis did have some good original games too.  The downside was that it was a cartridge based system and that you could never pick a bunch of games from a list...you would be swapping cartridges.


--- Quote from: Level42 on December 15, 2009, 01:47:24 pm ---The ST was "good with music" _because_ of the Midi port. The sound processor was inferior to the Amiga for sure. But you should read about the history of the Tramiel family and Atari, Commodore and Amiga at the time. There was a battle going on.
--- End quote ---

Yeah, I read about that in magazines that magazines.  They always talk about it in Retro Gamer.


--- Quote ---
Atari beat Commodore by releasing the ST much earlier and especially much cheaper.
Also, I liked the way that it could also be used as a serious computer with the high-res monochrome screen. The Amiga lacked business credibility. The ST was often used as a cheaper Mac as a desktop publishing system (Talk about long-gone buzz-words).
--- End quote ---

Yes, I do remember that the ST did come into the picture several times, and I ALMOST did buy one.  But it was a hard decision to go between the ST and the Amiga and I was bouncing around between the two often.   While I had considered a PC, most games were still text based...but then a new thing came along called "Windows", and both the ST and Amiga fell very quickly out of contention.   


--- Quote ---I think the ST was the better "all round" machine of the two. The Amiga was great for games.
--- End quote ---

That is what I gathered.   While the Midi ports on the ST were very much it's strong points, I could always get a cheap Mac if I want to concentrate on music and midi.


--- Quote ---I think the given example of Space Harrier is not entirely honest. It was also about who programmed what for what machine. If a programmer was good with programming the ST's sound processor, he could do some great stuff with it. Sometimes programmers were just lazy or under a time-limit to release stuff. Look at what the Pokey could do when the Atari 8-bit machines were almost 10 years after it's initial release. I bet the hardware designers never dreamed stuff like that would be possible when they developed the system, but the programmers simply learned to use it to it's full potential.
--- End quote ---

I thought that the Atari computer had 'good' sound synthesis, but after seeing that comparison, the Amiga clearly is better.  But then again the Sharp is better still!


--- Quote ---As far as the Amiga Star Wars version beating the real arcade version: Only someone who never played the arcade version can write something crazy like that.
--- End quote ---

LOL!  You are probably right.  I for one know no computer will ever beat the arcade sit down version of Star Wars.  BUT Mame does get pretty close, and if you can get a hold of that controller, then you have it made in the shade :).


--- Quote from: Xiaou2 on December 15, 2009, 04:22:00 pm ---
 Strange.  My A500 Never crashed.   It was my C64 that locked up all
the time due to poor floppy drive manufacturing / quality.
--- End quote ---

I never really had crashing problems with the C64/C128 system I had, BUT I did start with a tape drive system, and that was horrible.  It was give and take if the program would even load up properly.   I got the disk drive later on and that was much better and much faster, but it still did have issues.   But once the game was loaded properly, it usually ran fine.


--- Quote --- As for the Space Harrier comparison, I agree that programming has
some to do with it... However, you must remember, that the limits
of a machine drastically alter exactly what a programmer can do...and
thus there are REASONS why they couldnt make it look / sound better.

 For example... They Could have made the ST version
sound much better... but then they probably would have had to
cut back on the games graphical details... Otherwise, they may not
have had the processing power/ram to make the game play fast enough.

 Another example: The Amiga could do "1024" color mode... but, you couldnt use that in scrolling games.  Only for art programs, and static snapshots basically.

 As a programmer, you have to consider the onboard ram
(how many objects / sounds / and code the system can hold onto
at one time) , processing power  (Too many objects, or things at once,
could slow the game to a crawl) , media limitations (How many floppies?
Load times? Ram limitations...)

 Generally, you can see by example after example, that Amiga clearly
can outperform the ST. in overall processing power.  The only case
where that may not be true is when someone does a poor job in
programming the Amiga.  However, get the same programmer on
both machines... and he could make the Amiga version do much more
than the ST. hardware could handle.
--- End quote ---

That is what I gathered.


--- Quote ------

 jukingeo,  TFII = Thunderforce II.   Probably one of the Best
Shooters (Shumps)  of all time IMOP.
--- End quote ---

I never played it, but I have heard of it many times.   Usually when it came to shmups, it was those in the arcade such as the 194x series (which I never really cared for), or the really cool R-Type.  Usually when it comes to arcade games, I am usually found hanging around the classics :).


--- Quote ---The game has Top and Side view levels (They alternate each level).
Many people didnt care for the Top view sections. Admittedly, they
are a little clunky.  Still, I thought they were a nice change of pace,
and added some additional challenge.

 The game really does shine however, on the Side view stages... which
are detailed, fast, furious, and fun as hell.

 Unlike most shooters, the games balance is extremely good.  IE: If you
get killed in a high level, your basic weaponry is still great in taking
out the enemies.   And, as long as you have enough men behind you,
if you crash, you keep scrolling forwards.  (No horrific mid-level restarts)
--- End quote ---

Yeah, that was a big turn off on side scrollers and platform games.  You die and you start the level completely over.  That is why I was shocked when I first played Sonic (one of the few side scrollers I still play) they DID have midpoint cues in which once you reached them you DON'T have to start the level over.


--- Quote ---Sadly, I cant find any 'good' vids up.  This one is blurry / low quality.





--- End quote ---

Oh...oh...Yeah, now I remember that game.  I played it a couple of times, but it was too nerve racking for me.

I mostly like my Pac-Man, Space Invaders, Lunar Lander, Dig Dug, Star Wars, Tempest...well you get the idea, mostly 80's games.

I think I probably would be better off looking at some of the better consoles for some good ports.  But I believe I will make a separate thread for that.

Thanx for the info guys.

Geo

Scotty:
I have to chime in on this one.  I have owned countless Atari 8-bits (400, 800, 800XL), 2 Commodore 64c (white ones) 3 Atari STs and 2 Amigas.  All 4 were great machines.  Emulation of each by a windows box is virtually flawless.  WinUAE for the Amiga and STeem for the ST.  Both allow you to do things that was not so easy (or inexpensive) with a real ST/Amiga back in the day, like max out the memory, or use a later version of the OS.   I have a HotRod SE controller made by Hanaho (Real arcade joysticks and buttons) and both the Amiga and ST have no problems with it.  The Stelladapter is also another option.  It allows REAL atari 2600 joysticks to be used on the PC.  This works great as well as I have two of them.  :) 

One downside to a real Amiga was the flickering.  It used interlacing to achieve higher resolutions.  This caused a really annoying flicker affect.  The ST did not suffer from this problem.  With the emulation of WinUAE, this is not an issue.

There were some GREAT games for both platforms that were specific to that machine, and were never released in the arcades.  Midi Maze for the ST.  Up to 16 St's could be connected via a MIDI port for multi player fun.  You were a smiley face running around a maze looking for other smiley faces to shoot.  This is years before Doom/Duke Nukem/Quake death matches and lan parties.  Still a lot of fun.

Two must have games for the Amiga that belong in the arcade are FootMan and Deluxe Galaga.  Footman is Pac-Man done right.  The graphics are spot on, whereas you can ad a Midway copyright to the game,  and nobody would question it.  The main advantage to  Footman is that in two player mode, both players play at the SAME TIME.  One is the traditional yellow gobbler while the other is green.  Sound is in Stereo so yellows chomps were heard from the left speakers, and greens from the right.  Each screen was a totally different maze.  Oh, and did I mention, it also came with a maze editor to let you make your own mazes?  Deluxe Galaga has to be seen to be believed.  It does require the AGA chipset so an Amiga 600/1200 would be required.    This is where emulation is your friend.  :)  Also of note is Pinball dreams/Pinball Fantasies.  While not as good as Visual Pinmame or Future Pinball on the PC, these titles did reign supreme for years on the Amiga and PC worlds.  They were so popular that they were both just released for the Appple iPhone recently.  4 unique tables per title.  None were ports of real arcade tables, but the physics and graphics were of arcade quality. 

Being that you are using Mame. and that you have a hard drive already installed in the cab, There is no reason Mame, WinUAE and STeem will not coexist with each other.  You can have the best of all worlds.  There are several front-ends that will run all three emulators together.

On a side note, I have to chuckle when I read posts on here and think back to the BBS days.  Many computer users in the day were loyal to the brand.  Most people who had C-64s went to the Amiga, and most with Atari 8-Bits went to the ST.  In REALITY.....  Jay Minor who developed the 8-bit was the father of the Amiga.  Jack Tramiel who was responsible for the 64, threw together a lot of "off the shelf" parts and made the ST.  Not many people realize it, but Atari was originally supposed to release the Amiga under there name, and actually paid for a large portion of the development.   Too funny.

jukingeo:

--- Quote from: Scotty on December 16, 2009, 09:31:35 am ---I have to chime in on this one.  I have owned countless Atari 8-bits (400, 800, 800XL), 2 Commodore 64c (white ones) 3 Atari STs and 2 Amigas.  All 4 were great machines.  Emulation of each by a windows box is virtually flawless.  WinUAE for the Amiga and STeem for the ST.  Both allow you to do things that was not so easy (or inexpensive) with a real ST/Amiga back in the day, like max out the memory, or use a later version of the OS.   I have a HotRod SE controller made by Hanaho (Real arcade joysticks and buttons) and both the Amiga and ST have no problems with it.  The Stelladapter is also another option.  It allows REAL atari 2600 joysticks to be used on the PC.  This works great as well as I have two of them.  :) 

One downside to a real Amiga was the flickering.  It used interlacing to achieve higher resolutions.  This caused a really annoying flicker affect.  The ST did not suffer from this problem.  With the emulation of WinUAE, this is not an issue.

There were some GREAT games for both platforms that were specific to that machine, and were never released in the arcades.  Midi Maze for the ST.  Up to 16 St's could be connected via a MIDI port for multi player fun.  You were a smiley face running around a maze looking for other smiley faces to shoot.  This is years before Doom/Duke Nukem/Quake death matches and lan parties.  Still a lot of fun.

Two must have games for the Amiga that belong in the arcade are FootMan and Deluxe Galaga.  Footman is Pac-Man done right.  The graphics are spot on, whereas you can ad a Midway copyright to the game,  and nobody would question it.  The main advantage to  Footman is that in two player mode, both players play at the SAME TIME.  One is the traditional yellow gobbler while the other is green.  Sound is in Stereo so yellows chomps were heard from the left speakers, and greens from the right.  Each screen was a totally different maze.  Oh, and did I mention, it also came with a maze editor to let you make your own mazes?  Deluxe Galaga has to be seen to be believed.  It does require the AGA chipset so an Amiga 600/1200 would be required.    This is where emulation is your friend.  :)  Also of note is Pinball dreams/Pinball Fantasies.  While not as good as Visual Pinmame or Future Pinball on the PC, these titles did reign supreme for years on the Amiga and PC worlds.  They were so popular that they were both just released for the Appple iPhone recently.  4 unique tables per title.  None were ports of real arcade tables, but the physics and graphics were of arcade quality. 

Being that you are using Mame. and that you have a hard drive already installed in the cab, There is no reason Mame, WinUAE and STeem will not coexist with each other.  You can have the best of all worlds.  There are several front-ends that will run all three emulators together.


--- End quote ---

Thanx for sharing all that info.  It it surprising to learn that the emulations are just as good, if not better than the hardware.   Generally with emulation, it does take it's share of computer power.  I have noticed that with Mame.  Most of the early arcade games used very small computer resources...but once you go to emulation, you need a tremendous amount of power (in comparision).   When I first learned about Mame, the issue regarding performance & emulation always eluded me as I couldn't fathom how my computer which is many times faster than those old arcade game boards could actually 'choke' on a game that was originally created on inferior hardware.  But emulation takes up some juice.  I just wasn't sure how other platforms fared in regards to PC emulation.  So it is good to hear that Amiga/Atari ST emulation is very good.

I guess when it comes to these machines, I would be looking into more platform specific games.  I probably will revisit both the Amiga and Atari ST later on down the road.   I was mainly thinking that if an original hardware unit could be set up similar to Mame in a cabinet, that it might run 'better' or faster than Mame.  But as it turns out many of the arcade ports don't compare to the arcade versions.

I have looked at several arcade game packages for the PS2, XBox and Dreamcast and I believe that using one of those systems would be FAR better than building something around an Atari or Amiga machine.  Heck, I even learned that you CAN run Mame on a PS2 or Xbox.  I started up a discussion in the console section in case anyone wants to jump over and take a peek :).

Thanx,

Geo

Loafmeister:
One correction from Scotty's post, the 600 was not AGA, the AGA Machines were the 1200 and (I think) the 4000?

Where Scotty is now spot on, and where he embarassed me was in pointing out the Pinball Dreams/Fantasies games, which is probably THE Games that I've played the most on the Amiga, specifically "Nightmare" on the original Pinball Dreams.  Man, can't believe I forgot that one, thanks for pointing it out Scotty!  I've got some pinball buttons on my cab, I'm going to have to play that too.

Hmmm, I don't know jukingeo, it's so much easier to have the "best of both worlds" by just building your cab around a PC. As you indicated, if you build your cab around a genesis, you've got that problem with loading different roms, not so with a pc.

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