Author Topic: Mortal Kombat 4 Jamma MAME - questions (Read 10537 times)

kgibbons · « **on:** July 21, 2003, 01:28:38 am »

Hello all,

I've finally decided to take on a MAME cabinet project. After thinking about it some, I decided to go with a pre-built fighter cabinet. So I got ahold of a Mortal Kombat 4 cabinet -- actually a full working MK4 game, which is just added gravy to have the MK4 board to tinker with

I decided on the fighter cabinet for the large monitor and control panel. I thought of building my own cab, but for my first venture into the dedicated MAME cabinet world, I think I'm going the easy route.

Ok.. so as I was saying, this is a full working MK4 machine with everything intact. So as I was browsing arcadecontrols, I came across the PC2Jamma conversion section -- and this seemed a perfect fit for my situation.

So, to make things even more plug-and-play, I decided to go with a J-PAC unit and ArcadeVGA card from http://www.ultimarc.com

As far as I'm aware, this now will completely solve the monitor frequency issues since I will be pushing video out throuth the ArcadeVGA card, AND the control panel/keyboard issue due to the features of the J-PAC itself. And from looking at the current J-PAC page, they also have a video amp built into the units now... so that issue is squashed as well.

The only thing I'm guessing that will remain is audio. Ideally, I would like to use the cabinet speakers rather than re-wiring computer speakers or something similar. The J-PAC information has this:

Quote

JAMMA cabinet speaker routed to screw connectors for wiring to powered sound card or hacked PC speakers.

So do I simply make a custom speaker cable coming out of my PC's soundcard into the J-PAC's screwdown terminals?

And with regards to the control panel joystick/buttons... with the J-PAC, does any re-wiring of the control panel have to be done? I'm guessing the answer to this is NO... since the standard JAMMA connector plugs into the J-PAC, and then the J-PAC plugs into the PC's keyboard connection. So then the J-PAC is converting the signal from the control panel joystick/buttons into what the keyboard would produce. Am I correct in this assumption?

Sorry for some of the dumb questions... I'm still waiting for my J-PAC, so all my thought process here is very preliminary. Just trying to get it all straight in my head as to how I'm going to get the system up and running properly.

Thanks in advance for any help you can give!

Kevin

F|end · « **Reply #1 on:** July 21, 2003, 05:36:57 am »

I cannot tell you what you want but i recommend you to not mutilate your control panel! Your cab is already being a collectors classic don't destroy a piece of history! $:-\$

;DSee ya!

AlanS17 · « **Reply #2 on:** July 21, 2003, 12:11:31 pm »

As new as it is, it's hardly a classic. However, you may want to consider destroying a different machine. You've about to dismantle equipment that is actually worth something.

If you don't mind my asking, how much did you pay for it? If you didn't pay much you could turn it around for a real profit that may completely fund a low-budget rebuild "mameification" of an older machine.

rampy · « **Reply #3 on:** July 21, 2003, 12:23:21 pm »

hey man, welcome to the board/hobby...

FWIW you might have more luck/replies if you had posted this in the main forum... I'd just copy paste stuff over to a new post there...

when I get a chance I'll come back and try and answer you questions as best i can...

rampy

kgibbons · « **Reply #4 on:** July 21, 2003, 12:24:54 pm »

Quote from: AlanS17 on July 21, 2003, 12:11:31 pm

As new as it is, it's hardly a classic. However, you may want to consider destroying a different machine. You've about to dismantle equipment that is actually worth something.

If you don't mind my asking, how much did you pay for it? If you didn't pay much you could turn it around for a real profit that may completely fund a low-budget rebuild "mameification" of an older machine.

Well, I paid $675 for the game. Not on the extreme low end, but not as much as some newer fighters I've seen go for.

I actually don't plan on destroying the cabinet or CP at all. From my understanding of how the J-PAC works, I won't have to dismantle the control panel at all, or for that matter I won't really have to even clip one wire.

My plan is to use the J-PAC to turn my mame computer into a JAMMA "board" per se. Since the J-PAC does essentially the PC2JAMMA conversion for you without having to mutilate anything

Then I thought about even picking up a Multi-JAMMA kit from Clay Cowgill that will allow me to keep the original MK4 board installed, along with the jamma MAME system -- then I'll be able to switch back and forth, and also add more JAMMA boards in the future. But the whole time, keeping the original integrity of the cabinet.

The only thing like I mentioned in my original post was SOUND with the MAME system. I believe you simply have to make up a modified cable coming out of your PC's soundcard -- and connect the wires into the speaker terminals on the J-PAC. But I'm not 100% sure on this.

Let me know some thoughts on the whole thing guys.

Thanks again,

Kevin

Edgedamage · « **Reply #5 on:** July 21, 2003, 12:36:33 pm »

Sorry to say this but with all the plans on the net and all the plans for sale. I see no reason to mame a fully working cab. I know operators who in the 80's trashed stargates and defenders and other classics because "They were not classics and there were so many of them" Now speaking to the same operators they ALL say "If I had only known what those cabs were worth in the future". Don't go the easy route by trashing a working cabinet THAT WILL BE WORTH SOMETHING IN THE FUTURE!

Brax · « **Reply #6 on:** July 21, 2003, 12:38:46 pm »

Quote from: AlanS17 on July 21, 2003, 12:11:31 pm

As new as it is, it's hardly a classic. However, you may want to consider destroying a different machine. You've about to dismantle equipment that is actually worth something.

In 1984 Pac-Man wasn't a classic either. Have a little foresight. Any game that is popular is destined to be a future classic. ESPECIALLY considering that full size upright cabinets are likely to be dinosaurs in the not too distant future.
It WILL be a classic. Don't hurt it!

freppa · « **Reply #7 on:** July 21, 2003, 01:10:22 pm »

I'll try to actually answer your question...

The speakers on a JAMMA-cab are not amplified, only regular cables go from the speakers to the JAMMA-connection. The amplifier usually sits on the JAMMA-board.

This means you can't wire a cable from your regular soundcard directly to the J-PAC since it doesn't contain any audioamp. It simply wouldn't have the power the speakers. You need some kind of amplifier inbetween the soundcard and the J-PAC.

You can do this in a thousand different ways. The easiest would be to hack a couple of PC-speakers (open them, remove the speakerelements, use the wires for the elements to connect to J-PAC), or you could go for the caraudioequipmentroute which some people like...

Hope this helps.

/Freppa

kgibbons · « **Reply #8 on:** July 21, 2003, 01:11:42 pm »

Um.... guys, did you not read my reply

I have no intentions of killing the cab, control panel, or anything of the sort.

The mame PC will simply be inside the cabinet, along with the MK4 board --- and through the use of the JAMMA harness, I'll be able to switch either to the J-PAC (mame pc), or back to the MK4 board.

So as you can see, I don't plan on cutting even one wire inside the existing cabinet. The cab will be 100% original and untouched.

kgibbons · « **Reply #9 on:** July 21, 2003, 01:17:56 pm »

Quote from: freppa on July 21, 2003, 01:10:22 pm

I'll try to actually answer your question...

The speakers on a JAMMA-cab are not amplified, only regular cables go from the speakers to the JAMMA-connection. The amplifier usually sits on the JAMMA-board.

This means you can't wire a cable from your regular soundcard directly to the J-PAC since it doesn't contain any audioamp. It simply wouldn't have the power the speakers. You need some kind of amplifier inbetween the soundcard and the J-PAC.

You can do this in a thousand different ways. The easiest would be to hack a couple of PC-speakers (open them, remove the speakerelements, use the wires for the elements to connect to J-PAC), or you could go for the caraudioequipmentroute which some people like...

Hope this helps.

/Freppa

Hello there,

Thanks for the reply on that question... I've been waiting for someone to finally respond to that

Let me ask you however.. what exactly do you need from the PC speakers if I went that route?

Are you saying to crack a set apart, and use the speakers themselves? Or just use the guts, which I'm guessing would contain an audio amp since all PC speakers are powered.

freppa · « **Reply #10 on:** July 21, 2003, 01:26:58 pm »

Quote from: kgibbons on July 21, 2003, 01:17:56 pm

Let me ask you however.. what exactly do you need from the PC speakers if I went that route?

Are you saying to crack a set apart, and use the speakers themselves? Or just use the guts, which I'm guessing would contain an audio amp since all PC speakers are powered.

Yes, crack them apart and use the guts... Make sure to put the volumeknob in a reachable place to, it saves a lot of complaints from the wife

/Freppa

AlanS17 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 21, 2003, 02:51:35 pm »

For what you paid for the thing I still think you would be better off selling it and making a profit. Then from there I'd make a dedicated MAME machine.

I originally went your route with my Killer Instinct 2 machine, but now I can't wait to sell it. If this hobby interests you as much as it does alot of the people around here then sooner or later that MK4 is not going to be enough to make you happy. You're going to want a dedicated MAME machine.

Plus I guess you can hold onto it for 20 years to see if it might become a classic. Most arcade games don't become classics, though. They just become old. Even "classic" fighters, though they are technically old, aren't worth a whole lot. My friend bought a SF2 for like $200. Keep the game if you like playing it alot, but don't expect it to be worth too much. Especially don't expect the value to rise.

I would hold onto a newer Golden Tee, but I wouldn't hold onto an MK4. My brother has a dedicated original MK and the major portion of its value is in the 25" monitor. Fighting games just aren't worth much beyond their playable value and fun factor. If they are worth anything at all it's because they still make money in the arcades even years after they come out.

However, I think an intact original Virtua Fighter is worth some money, but that would be an exception to the rule.

Amra · « **Reply #12 on:** July 21, 2003, 04:26:04 pm »

I done know what it is, but some people just dont "get it"...

With a computer in it, it WILL be a dedicated MAME Cabinet, but as soon as he unplugs it and plugs back in the jamma mk4 board, it will once again be completely original..

Why dont you people read the fricking post instead of reading the Title and making assumptions! so quit telling him not to destroy the cabinet, hes NOT!

--------------------

What you need to do is take a pair of Amplified speakers, remove the speakers, and run wires from where the old speakers would have been, to your jamma connector. Then simply connect the amplifier to your computer.

Hopefully that helps...

IIOIOOIOO · « **Reply #13 on:** July 21, 2003, 04:35:22 pm »

$675 is pretty fair non-Ebay market price for that game. MAME to your heart's content. Esp considering that no MK holds its value as well as MKII, since it was all downhill from that point. Beware people who urge you into entering the trap-laden world of b/s/t on arcade games without having much experience themselves. You might sell it and make a $100 profit, but you will pay WAY more than $100 worth of hassle to get the deal done.

kgibbons · « **Reply #14 on:** July 21, 2003, 04:35:33 pm »

Hehe... I never meant to start any fueding here guys. But yes Amra, you're right that it will be back to complete ORIGINAL status once I simply swap the JAMMA connection over again.

And yes, I realize MK4 isn't a classic game... but my intention was never to buy a classic cab. I just so happen to come across the MK4 cab, and thought it looked like a good fit for a MAME machine. And the added ability to play MK4 was extra incentive to purchase the machine.

Granted... I won't have a trackball or spinner on the stock CP, but it's totally fine. That will be my second project... this one is just to give it a shot as painless as possible, and see how it goes

AlanS17 · « **Reply #15 on:** July 21, 2003, 05:16:05 pm »

I understand it will be original after you take out the PC. Like I said, I did the same with my KI2 machine. All I'm saying is that sooner or later you're *probably* going to want to have a dedicated MAME machine. By that I mean a machine that will never ever play anything but MAME without some sort of conversion, that has MAME sideart, controls all over the place, etc. Now THAT is a dedicated MAME - not an MK4 machine with a PC in it. That is not a dedicated MAME machine.

When the decision comes around to have a TRULY dedicated MAME machine (not an MK4 machine with a PC in it), you're *probably* not going to want the MK4 machine anymore. Unless it's a classic or unemulated and REALLY good, most people would rather not have a dedicated machine for a game that is already MAMEd.

FYI I did read the posts. Maybe you don't "get it" when I try to make my point. Maybe you need to read my post more slowly or maybe you don't understand the meaning of "dedicated". A cabinet with designed for one game with another game in it is not a dedicated anything.

Now I'm not saying there is anything wrong with dropping a PC in an MK4 machine. Just saying sooner or later that probably won't feel like enough... And when that's not enough you'll probably want to sell it anways... And that's ALL I'm really getting at... It's worth more intact than as a MAME machine so in the long run you may want to sell it for the good money in order to MAME a lesser machine...

Until that day, though, there's no rush...

IIOIOOIOO · « **Reply #16 on:** July 21, 2003, 06:16:34 pm »

In my opinion, most MAME machines with MAME stuff slathered all over the sides look pretty crummy. I'm sure I'm not alone.

BTW, all the MK4 machines I've seen have these totally sweet monitors in them that just look "cleaner" than others. Is this the case with yours? If so, right on. You payed only slightly more for the whole game than what it would've cost you to buy the monitor by itself. Also, check the CP. It's probably easily removeable, so you could just set it aside and use it as a template for your new one. With a blank the same size, you probably have lots of real estate to work with...

Can't wait to see the pictures!

BobA · « **Reply #17 on:** July 21, 2003, 06:53:47 pm »

Do exactly what you have decided to do and don't listen to detractors.

When using a JPAC you have jamma buttons 1 to 3 standard and button 4 nonstandard on the JAMMA connector. Buttons 4 and 5 may go to a molex and plug directly into your MK4. My MK1 board is setup this way cuz only buttons 1 to 3 are standard JAMMA. You may need and adapter to your molex to plug into the JPAC terminal strip for these buttons if you do not want to cut a single wire. If you do cut a few wires you will not need the molex to mate with your button 4 and 5 for each player.

BobA

SirPeale · « **Reply #18 on:** July 21, 2003, 07:56:24 pm »

Quote from: AlanS17 on July 21, 2003, 05:16:05 pm

I understand it will be original after you take out the PC. Like I said, I did the same with my KI2 machine. All I'm saying is that sooner or later you're *probably* going to want to have a dedicated MAME machine. By that I mean a machine that will never ever play anything but MAME without some sort of conversion, that has MAME sideart, controls all over the place, etc. Now THAT is a dedicated MAME - not an MK4 machine with a PC in it. That is not a dedicated MAME machine.

Bologna. My cab is a MAME machine, doesn't have controls all over the place, and is a conversion of a Moon Patrol cabinet. It is no less a "MAME" machine than anyone else's here. True, I didn't build the cabinet, but I built the control panel, wired everything from scratch, configured all the software and placed it in the cabinet just so.

I've worked hard to make sure that, if I ever wanted to, I could convert it back to a Moon Patrol easily. All original parts have been taken off and moved to storage. The sideart was stripped off (as it was painted over in several coats) but since it was just a stencil, it can easily be replaced. I don't have any of the original guts, but they can be obtained fairly easily.

AlanS17 · « **Reply #19 on:** July 21, 2003, 08:12:02 pm »

Then it's a MAME machine, but it's not a dedicated MAME machine. It's dedicated to playing MAME, but that doesn't make it dedicated - even though that's all it does.

I suppose in that anybody that doesn't build their own doesn't have a truly dedicated machine, but since there is no such thing as a factory-fresh MAME machine it's a fuzzy definition. With enough work I could make my original Bad Dudes look like it used to. Will I ever do it, though? No. Does it even resemble the Bad Dudes that it used to be? No. It's not MAME in a Bad Dudes machine. It's a MAME machine.

However, if you drop Centipede into a Millipede cabinet, do you have a dedicated Centipede? No you don't. Can you go back to Millipede? Yes you can. See what I'm saying here?

My comments weren't posted to ridicule anybody who has a MAME conversion. Hell, I have one. But it's a complete conversion. Nobody can say what a MAME machine looks like, but it's easy to tell what a MAME machine DOESN'T look like. MK4 is not a MAME machine. Moon Patrol is not a MAME machine, either. Do you see what I'm saying?

It's not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of fact. Any machine that wasn't built for the sole purpose of playing a particular game is a conversion. Any machine built with the purpose of playing a particular game is dedicated. Mine is a MAME conversion, but it's a complete conversion. It's not just a matter of what's inside.

A Street Fighter machine with Mortal Kombat in it isn't a Mortal Kombat machine. It's an SF machine with MK in it. Same goes for MAME machines that aren't MAME machines. Every MAME machine is going to look different, but if it's another game on the outside then it isn't a MAME machine.

Apollo · « **Reply #20 on:** July 21, 2003, 09:10:14 pm »

Oooooo my head hurts now.

jakejake28 · « **Reply #21 on:** July 21, 2003, 10:24:52 pm »

i betcha you've spent more time arguing about this than playing your cabs. if the macine only plays one thing, its dedicated, right? at least, according to websters it is: dedicated: to commit to a particular course of action

as for classic vs. non-classic, 20 yrs from now arcades wont be built and anything with a joystick and pcb will be "classic". especially as popular a game as mk4... arcades are only really surviving in asia and, to a lesser extent, europe. not to say they are not large, important masses, but the usa is still the target for most companys that want to get rich. companys are pulling support of arcades in favor of consoles.

Brax · « **Reply #22 on:** July 22, 2003, 12:06:44 am »

I think I need to find a Duramold and set it on fire.

rampy · « **Reply #23 on:** July 23, 2003, 11:45:17 am »

Hey Alan, et al...

Can one really have a "dedicated" mame machine?

Aren't they all really conversions?

Isn't a "dedicated" MAME machine really a converted home made "box" with "MAME" capabilities (although there's been some fancy pants nice-arse cabinets built) -- can they really be dedicated? If a tree falls in the woods is it still a tree if it's been converted from a bush?

Does anybody really care?

blah... I think any cabinet, reversible or not, conversion or not that has a PC running mame in it, is a mame cabinet =P

Rampy

AlanS17 · « **Reply #24 on:** July 23, 2003, 02:04:43 pm »

I can see other points of view and I can also see this whole subject never coming to an end. It's almost as bad as "build or buy". I'm willing to just drop it if anybody else is. It was Amra that just got me started by misreading what I wrote - complaining that I didn't read enough when clearly Amra didn't read mine.

I never said he was destroying the cabinet. Just said he'd make better use of it by selling it. The whole mame conversion subject was a bit of a side track.

BobA · « **Reply #25 on:** July 23, 2003, 06:45:05 pm »

Quote from: AlanS17 on July 23, 2003, 02:04:43 pm

I'm willing to just drop it if anybody else is.

Amen

What was the original question again?

BobA

RedSquirrel · « **Reply #26 on:** July 23, 2003, 08:44:50 pm »

Quote from: AlanS17 on July 21, 2003, 08:12:02 pm

Then it's a MAME machine, but it's not a dedicated MAME machine. It's dedicated to playing MAME, but that doesn't make it dedicated - even though that's all it does.

sorry

F|end · « **Reply #27 on:** July 24, 2003, 05:11:37 am »

;DThat seems just like a George Bush quote!

A car is a car, well, it's not really a car but does the same things and it's just like a car! Oh wait, it is a car...

AlanS17 · « **Reply #28 on:** July 24, 2003, 10:24:16 am »

You both know exactly what I mean. "Dedicated" has a more specific definition than Webster's when refering to arcade machines. Let's not start this up again, ok?

JayTea · « **Reply #29 on:** July 24, 2003, 12:22:17 pm »

Alan, I understand what you are saying. In the world of Arcade Games there are many types of cabs.

Dedicated: Means that the cabinet was built for a specific game, and still has that game in it. (Pac Man cab plays Pac Man)

Conversion: Means that the cab was built for a specific game, but now plays another game. (Pac Man cab converted to Galaga)

Kit: Usually used to convert a dedicated cab, or restore a Dedicated cab to it's original state.

If you check out this Namco website, search for some used upright games and you will see the abbreviations and definitions for CONV, DED, KIT, etc...

http://www.namcoarcade.com/game-sales.asp

As for a Dedicated MAME machine, You would have to build one yourself, or buy one specifically built for MAME / EMU's. I beleive the artwork is up to the individual and isn't the determining factor for a MAME dedicated cab. If I want a Street Fighter overlay, marquee, and sideart, that's my choice - and it would still be a MAME dedicated cab, using the industry standard definition of "Dedicated". MAME is what it was built for.

What about folks like me who run Daphne and z26 EMU's along with MAME? Does that make my cab an undedicated MAME Cab? ahh we could discuss for hours....

AlanS17 · « **Reply #30 on:** July 24, 2003, 03:51:05 pm »

Quote from: JT - aka The Football Guy on July 24, 2003, 12:22:17 pm

What about folks like me who run Daphne and z26 EMU's along with MAME? Does that make my cab an undedicated MAME Cab? ahh we could discuss for hours....

We would probably sooner come to agreement on the meaning of life. That's why I give up on the subject. It wasn't even the intent of my original post.

Brax · « **Reply #31 on:** July 25, 2003, 02:12:38 pm »

Quote from: AlanS17 on July 24, 2003, 03:51:05 pm

We would probably sooner come to agreement on the meaning of life.

42, silly!

Howard_Casto · « **Reply #32 on:** July 28, 2003, 07:07:39 pm »

Didn't see this post as it's buried in the wrong forum. Your resident mk expert comes to the rescue.

First regarding your question, which other people seem to have ignored.

For the speakers simply mount a y adaptor at the actual speaker cables. Then you can plug both the pc and board in at once. You will need an amp for the pc end of things though, as I believe mk4 boards had built in amps on the main board, like the rest of the mk series.

No you will NOT be able to simply plug it in, or use a multi-jamma adaptor to use both at once. Mk4 has more than 4 buttons, and thus it's not fully jamma. It has an additional kick harness for the rest of the buttons. You'll need to purchase an additional kick harness and hack it to the jpac (not much to hack, but you want to keep it original as i understand it) and perhaps make some sort of custom switcher between the two.

You aren't going to like any mk game as a dedicated cab, simply becuase it doesn't have the standard 2 rows of 3 buttons sf layout. It makes it quite akward for other games. DO NOT hack it though and here's why.

Contrary to popular belief the mk4 cab will become exteremely popular in years to come, for several reasons:

1. Although nothing will ever top mk2, mk4 almost held it's own in that dept. Considering the dwindleing interest in old school fighters when it was released, it was extremely successful.

2. Mk4 has the unfortunate distinguishment of being one of the last midway arcade games ever. (not counting racing games, which use more of a gimmick machine)

3. It's also the last of the games to use the classic mk2 cab design.

4. It's the last mk game that will ever be released in the arcades, according to midway.

5. Because all the mk games used exactly the same cabinet, finding one that is original to the game is extremely rare. Most mk1 cabs are upgraded to mk2 and mk2 cabs up to mk3. The beauty of mk4 cabs is generally the original side art is in tact, which is the most valuable part as midway flat out sells a different sideart if you are going for a kit form.

AlanS17 · « **Reply #33 on:** July 28, 2003, 07:12:52 pm »

Which would be worth more - a fully original MK1 or MK4?

And would a fully original MK1 be worth more than some other MK (MK2, UMK3) in an MK1 machine?

I ask this cuz my brother has an MK1 machine with boards for MK1, MK2, amd UMK3. He plans to sell it at auction with UMK3 in since he feels that will fetch the most money for it.

jakejake28 · « **Reply #34 on:** July 28, 2003, 09:38:24 pm »

Quote from: Howard_Casto on July 28, 2003, 07:07:39 pm

4. It's the last mk game that will ever be released in the arcades, according to midway.

i think thats too bad. flame me, but Deadly Allince for my Xbox is my favorite MK yet....

Edgedamage · « **Reply #35 on:** August 06, 2003, 05:08:09 pm »

Hmm edgedamage thinks to himself maybe I should get that PERFECT MK2 that was offered to him for $200.

AlanS17 · « **Reply #36 on:** August 06, 2003, 11:44:16 pm »

Quote from: Edgedamage on August 06, 2003, 05:08:09 pm

Hmm edgedamage thinks to himself maybe I should get that PERFECT MK2 that was offered to him for $200.

The hardware alone is easily worth twice that price in good condition. Plus you're talking about one of the prettiest cabinets in more recent history. MK2 is also generally agreed upon as the best MK of the series, though there are exceptions.

Where is this machine you speak of? Is it in Texas???

Edgedamage · « **Reply #37 on:** August 07, 2003, 10:37:47 am »

No not in texas but when I get the machine it will be given the once over and have a comfortable life being well taken care of. That is untill I sell it at the toronto game room show in november.
http://www.torontogameroomshow.com/


Main	Restorations	Software	Audio/Jukebox/MP3	Everything Else	Buy/Sell/Trade
Project Announcements	Monitor/Video	GroovyMAME	Merit/JVL Touchscreen	Meet Up	Retail Vendors
Driving & Racing	Woodworking	Software Support Forums	Consoles	Project Arcade	Reviews
Automated Projects	Artwork	Frontend Support Forums	Pinball	Forum Discussion	Old Boards
Raspberry Pi & Dev Board	controls.dat	Linux	Miscellaneous Arcade	Wiki Discussion	Old Archives
Lightguns	Arcade1Up	Try the site in https mode		Site News


Unread posts \| New Replies \| Recent posts \| Rules \| Chatroom \| Wiki \| File Repository \| RSS \| Submit news