Arcade Collecting > Pinball
Limited Edition Run On New LOTR
Xiaou2:
Xiaou2,
--- Quote ---The thing you're forgetting is that if Stern decided to run a popular game from teh past that they're already trying to sell a machine that has thousands already in the hands of collectors and operators. There were over 20,000 Addams Family machines sold, they're not going to be able to sell another 5,000.
--- End quote ---
I do not think you really understand pinball. Many pins have been completely destroyed
and parted out by now... because people didnt want to take the time and effort to
restore them.
We have Missing or dead pcbs, acid damages, floods ,lightning strikes/surges, fires, hurricanes, tipped over / sunken container ships, freight transport damages,
vandalism, and pins sitting in some grampas house - or a warehouse/barn collecting dust..
rotting, rusting, and warping.
ALSO, remember that the number of pins were sold in numbers relative to the arcades.
The numbers of arcades + the number of pins were not extremely high compared to the
number of arcade players.
And, given that the number of players kept growing... and multiplying offspring like
rabbits... that difference becomes even greater.
The kids who passed through the arcades never thought it would be possible to
own a real arcade machine or pin. However, as the arcades started to die off, and the
kids were adults... things changed significantly. Us kids are willing to invest a good
chunk of change in a great machine.
And that is not counting the wealth people out there. Where I live, there is a group
of guys here that own entire basements filled with pins. Some make ok or good money... while others are merely obsessed.
Now, lets not forget that Ops still are in the game. And, putting a Medievil Madness
out on location will still do very well. In fact, my buddy had to beg high and low to try
to pursuade/pay any ops from taking a game off-route so he could buy it.
The story is still the same. The games will still make enough sales to remain on route
for some time... and then can be resold to collectors. There are of course also a ton
of collectors who will sell off their current machines for brand spankin new machines...
just because. And Imop, there will still be more than enough demand for a boatload
of MM's.
You could make enough to sell them from now till the year 3030.. and they would sell.
(unless someone made some even more advance and fun pins) (Population continues
to grow... and new gens who previously didnt have the money now Do have it, and will
want to spend it on a great machine)
But a pile of dog poo like Ripleys? All that did was further sour the ties with Ops.
And only the stupidest or most sympathetic of collectors bought them. I know some
collectors buying sterns... not because they like them... but because they were trying
to keep pinball from a complete death.
This way of being isnt going to keep working. Its not working as it stands.
( Btw - They probably could also get a deal with places like Museums. The games may
be remakes... but they are historical designs / machines. )
--- Quote ---Also, in order to re-tool to make these machines it would basically run them into debt faster than a flop based on a machine where they use their own current resources.
--- End quote ---
That makes no logical sense at all. What cost more? To have a plastic injection mold
from the past be re-used (many companies who have made them never toss them out),
OR... to have all new molds made?! FYI - AFAIK, Its like $10,000 for a detailed plastic
injected mold to be made.
That does not even count things like the ball assemblies. Every assembly that is
new has to be completely engineered from the ground up. Such engineers are not
cheap... and the stuff takes a ton of time and testing to finalize each new part.
A simple assembly can easily take thousands of dollars to finalize.
Remaking a known working / tested assembly? Maybe 1/50th the cost and time.
Stern has some choices... 1) Keep making crap, and all orders will dry up eventually.
2) Make cheaper crap - like zizzle and pray its cheap enough and enough desire to own.
3) Make Quality pins that people would Love to play and own.
4) Sell parts and 'easy to work software' - for "Build you own pinball kits"
5) Repo and distribute parts only.
Really man... its one thing to try to sell a poorly done painting for a few dollars. But
quite another to try to sell that same painting at the Thousands of dollar level. You really
cant sell "crap" at that price point. And that is basically what they are doing.
--- Quote ---To make money on something like a Medieval Madness run, they'd need to sell way more than they'd be capable of doing or they'd need to charge a big premium for the machine.
--- End quote ---
There is no real limit to the number of machines one could build. They simply would have
to be able to produce more pins within the set time lot in order to cover the bills of the
employees & facilities/electric...etc. If they had to, they could simply hire more people,
and run the shop in multiple shifts. (non-stop flow)
If they can produce and sell a game like WOF, then they can afford to sell a
Really great game like MM. WOF isnt going to be getting multiple lots like
LOTR and Simpsons did... which are what saved them from being completely buried.
--- Quote ---And no, interest in pinball isn't on the rise.
--- End quote ---
Wrong. As said before, there are plenty like myself who has gotten older and
scrapped enough cash to get a dream machine. Which once you have one... that
then multiplies.
I know a local woman who went from zero machines about 2 yrs ago... and now has
bought 4. She is already looking at another.
The video pinball emulations have also sparked a great interest. Video game players
who may have skipped out of pinball before.. have found digital machines that they
find intriguing... and want to play and own a real machine.
Auctions and game shows are popping up left and right.. and the interest is
climbing. The internet has helped to fuel the passion, and to spread the word. Other
video pinball games for pc, and consoles... and heck... even the cheesy windows
xp pinball game have created interests.
And what do you think the kids of the parents who own pinballs are gona want
when they get older? Their own pinball collections.
Btw - have you even noticed the number of video pins that have been created by
users for visual pinball as well as "Future Pinball" ?
--- Quote ---The distribution network is in shambles and getting worse. Some states don't even have the ability to bring a Stern machine in, and it's not Stern's fault. For pinball to stick around, Stern has to be very conservative.
--- End quote ---
This is the worst idealism. The whole reasons arcades went byebye...is because
they stopped originality, quality, and reduced the gameplay to crap. So what do they
do??? They keep making the same level crap... expecting things to get better.
Stern will NOT get better when they output crap. They will have a chance if they
put out GOOD machines. There is Tons and Tons of proof in this.
--- Quote ---I like to give the guy a break, because he's literally living from machine to machine. He might be able to absorb one or two flops between mild hits, so safer licenses are what he needs to focus on. Margins are already razor thin, and raising prices would only kill the ability to put pins out there even more. Stern himself said that the private market is incapable of keeping pinball alive.
--- End quote ---
I dont give Stern a break, because he is the one who is ruining it with poor choices.
Steve Ritchie tried to tell him the the collectors on the newsgroups were getting
fed up with the crap... and what does Stern say??? He asks Steve if there is any way
they can delete the messages!!! He had No clue at all about the collectors... and didnt
care one bit about them.
Stern does not realize how many collectors and new home pin buyers are the ones
who have really been keeping Sterns doors from closing.
And yet, that isnt going to keep happening anymore. Not with crappy themes,
poor gameplay, bad sound quality, poor artwork, every corner cut,
and cheap easily breaking assemblies.
Xiaou2:
Wikipedia:
--- Quote ---High Speed's bill of materials was higher than other games, and some rival Williams designers nicknamed it "High Cost". The cost increase was minimal, and the game sold 17,080 units. It was the major title that revitalized the entire pinball market.
--- End quote ---
Jeff AMN:
You're oversimplifying things. First of all, Stern's factory is set to produce Stern parts, not Williams or Bally parts. To get the correct molds, presses, tooling, and such would cost a lot and it would take several success to offset the cost.
Secondly, and more importantly, Stern and his employees LIKE producing original content. They don't want to become the equivalent of a copy machine. They like what they produce and they feel that they do a good job doing it.
Someone in Australia is already trying to reproduce Bally and Williams machines and it hasn't been going well. He thought he had the funds, he thought he had the resources, and he's still not put out a single machine.
Stern has its place in the industry, and they don't need to be anything but what they are. Maybe they can come up with better themes and licenses, but they don't need to get into recreations.
Xiaou2:
--- Quote ---Stern and his employees LIKE producing original content.
--- End quote ---
First off, Stern "HIMSELF" likes making new content.
The rest are liking the pay and the job. They are paid to like what they
are told to make. That does not mean they actually like the crappy
licenses, the shoddy artwork, and half a** releases.
I myself would be 10x more satisfied putting together a masterpiece
like Medievil Madness, Creature, IJ, TOM, etc.. than any of the Stern
releases.
That said, Id love to see and or make original games. Not crappy half-A**ed
games... but actual good original which match or top Williams best.
Jeff AMN:
The real problem here is that you're just not able to see that Stern does put out some good stuff. Lord of the Rings, Spider-Man, Family Guy/Shrek, and The Simpsons Pinball Party stand up well with the top tier Williams and Bally games. Unless you can see that, this discussion will remain circular though.
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