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Happ to stop using Cherry switches
kowal:
I get new stuff from my local SUZO and I get this "new" micro on all HAPP concave pushbuttons and HAPP Ultimate, on Competion I stiil get iL (PSL-L-CV) and 80% KWJ and 20% e-switch. I buy too 50pcs KWJ, I think to buy next 50pcs price is good 0,75$ for one switch.
and E-switch
:bat terminal look badly this is not copper (Cu) or silver (Ag), this look how normal aluminium (Al).
:bat case have weaker and uglier plastic hard too see on photo because it is white but difference is huge.
:bat have different point of activation on 10pcs: 5 have 1,5mm, 2 have - 1mm and 3 have - 2mm, on KWJ a get on 10psc: 4 -1,5mm, 6 - 1mm. e-swicth work how D44 not KWJ for me.
:bat e-switch is little harder but only 5g but meny switch have larger differences on copies larger than on KWJ series.
:bat "klik" is differ on copies, larger than on KWJ series
E-switch is not better from KWJ, it is not analog nor equivalents KWJ, true is they are worse than KWJ and other Cherry model like D-series
:police: E-switch is more similar to switchy Zippy (with white case and red plunger - Cherry imitation) than Cherry KWJ. This model Zippy come with Ultimate knockoff from coinopexpress http://www.coinopexpress.com/products/parts/joysticks/
goldznnz:
--- Quote from: kowal on June 30, 2009, 02:20:13 pm ---
now HAPP look only on price not on quality (China Competion (for You work identical like original), Chinese factories)
crisis xD
"Have you even seen one of the new ones yet to try them?"
no, I will not buy them
--- Quote ---Anything here of use ?
http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/pdf/D4_Series.pdf
--- End quote ---
I have D41,D42, D44.
D41 and D43/D44 use CoinControl, and Wico
D42 use iL and SUZO, Ultimarc
D41/D42/D43 (all is similar) - have different movement, fell - after engagement they place resistance, it is matter of taste. I prefer KWJ in buttons, but I love D42 in Eurojoystick
D44 is very similar fell how KWJ but the point of activation is lower, for buttons KWJ is still more better, on stick it depends - on Wico Conical Joystick they do not work correctly, less diagonal than on KWJ, on other stick work OK and all is fine (iL-Eurojoystick, SUZO)
--- End quote ---
I know this is an old thread an topic but an IMPORTANT one for those interested! :angel:
I also 100% agree with KOWAL on this subject
I have tried the new E-switch and compared it to the KWJA0017's.
point of engagements are very different
e-switch: must be pressed almost all the way down to activate
kwja0017: almost immediately activated when pressed
resistant/grams of force
E-SWITCH: rated at 50 grams, but feels heavier/more effort to activate vs the KWJA series
KWJA0017: rated at 75 grams, requires less effort to press down vs the e-switch
I know this may seem odd that the e-switch is rated at a "softer" 50 grams of force but it
actually requires more effort to activate! Your fingers will get tired much faster esp with
fighting games using the E-SWITCH
quietness of switches
E-SWITCH: is louder more clicky than the KWJA0017
KWJA0017: is much quiter than the E-SWITCH brand, almost whisper quiet
I know this is a minor area of preference but this actually relates to the
required force to activate switches.
longevity/ mechanical cycles
have not used E-SWITCH brand long enough to "kill" one yet
but specs rated it at 1 million cycles vs the 10 million for KWJA0017.
for the average joe, they will not really notice any difference between the two. but for gamer/medium to hardcore gamer they will definitely feel the difference right off the bat. Its like the average person buy a home pc vs an enthusiast/knowledgeable shopper looking for that quality product.
I personally just don't like how the E-SWITCH engages near the "bottom" of the switch length vs immediate response from the KWJA0017's. Also the fact that the E-SWITCH requires more force to press down and activate vs the KWJA0017 can really make your fingers tired quickly especially with fighting games. I guess you may get use to this extra force on the E-SWITCHES. I guess you could compare it to a "hard" spring competition joystick vs a "soft" spring comeptition joystick.
*** side note i've also tested the D41C and the D44L
for some reason these are suppose to near identical to the KWJA0017's but there are some differences users should be aware of.
even though the D41C and D44L are both rated at 75 grams in their respective versions, The D41C feel much stiffer to activate vs the D44L. Since both of these use that spring mechanism for engagement, it requires a bit more of travel to activate when comparing to the KWJA0017, but this difference is just a tiny bit more. And it is still much LESS when comparing to the E-SWITCH brand.
SO QUICK OVERVIEW:
best microswitch for buttons: KWJA0017
next best microswitch: D44LR1AA
I have been a long time gamer and do not mind spending more $$$ for quality parts in my setups
and again totally agree with Kowal on this microswitch topic
sorry if this post is mumble jumbled, but i thought i'd share my experiences for those interested
and now off to shopping for the hard to find KWJA0017 cherry microswitch... ... anybody know where i can
still purchase these???
I live in the USA and its been tough to get a hold of these KWJA0017. I have purchase a few hundred here and there, but still on the look out for more! I guess next best bet would be overseas/EUROPE
anybody???
goldznnz:
Also does anybody know the exact model# of the new happ/E-SWITCH microswitch.
I know what the happ# is: 95-0733-90
but specifically looking for the E-swith model #
i went to the e-switch site and used their snap switch model "builder" and came
up with this part#: LS 085 15 00 F050 C1 A
can anyone else verify if this is correct?
too bad happ no longer includes the "oem" part # on their e-switch microswitch
out of the bag of 50 i have not one has the e-switch part# or happ part # on it.
guess they save some cents here with no part # labels
MonMotha:
--- Quote from: AndyWarne on July 10, 2009, 09:12:23 am ---
--- Quote from: MonMotha link=topic=93809.msg988366#msg988366 --- Within a week or two, two out of the 10 switches had failed. They'd "stick" - that is, they'd hold for a period of time after you released them, often making and breaking contact rapidly during that "sticking" time. It's not hard to debounce a switch (though one could argue all day as to preferred methods of doing it), but it's basically impossible to deal with behavior like that.
--- End quote ---
I cant explain this at all. A rough calculation shows we have sold around 43,000 of these switches, mostly on J-Stik joysticks (Sanwa UM-8), and not one report of failure until the ones you mention here. Will remain one of lifes great mysteries I suppose...
--- End quote ---
Since this got bumped, I noticed I never replied, and you deserve some sort of closure on it.
I gather you've moved away from those switches at this point, so it's something of a moot point now. Maybe my friend just had bad luck. I seem to recall those switches felt a little "mushy" from the get-go. We both keep lots of those Omron switches laying around since they're stock on many of the machines we have, so replacing them wasn't a big deal.
RandyT:
Where to start :)... I'm afraid you have your work cut out for you if you want to stay with those Cherry switches. I suggest you move on to something like our "Groovy Standard Soft-Touch", which sounds like just what you are looking for. But let me go though your points and let you know what you are facing.
--- Quote from: goldznnz on September 27, 2010, 03:49:07 pm ---I know this is an old thread an topic but an IMPORTANT one for those interested! :angel:
I also 100% agree with KOWAL on this subject
I have tried the new E-switch and compared it to the KWJA0017's.
point of engagements are very different
e-switch: must be pressed almost all the way down to activate
kwja0017: almost immediately activated when pressed
--- End quote ---
Let me start off by saying that I have three switches here that I tested, 2 of the kwja0017 Cherry and 1 E-Switch. I would be hard pressed to say that the actuation point was "very" different between one of the Cherry Switches and the E-Switch. It's hard to see a difference, but if there is one, I would have to say it was maybe .010" or 10 thousandths of an inch lower on the E-Switch. Not something that's really even perceivable on a button press.
But on the other Cherry switch (same "Mexico" HAPP model number), there is no doubt something is very different, and this discrepancy may very well be the reason I could not convince them something was amiss.
--- Quote ---resistant/grams of force
E-SWITCH: rated at 50 grams, but feels heavier/more effort to activate vs the KWJA series
KWJA0017: rated at 75 grams, requires less effort to press down vs the e-switch
I know this may seem odd that the e-switch is rated at a "softer" 50 grams of force but it
actually requires more effort to activate! Your fingers will get tired much faster esp with
fighting games using the E-SWITCH
--- End quote ---
This is akin to stating that a 12lb bowling ball is easier to pick up than an 8lb one. In other words, something is wrong. I'm not sure where you are getting the specs for those particular Cherry switches, but I can assure you that they aren't rated at "75grams". HAPP specified the E-Switch to have the same ratings as the KWJA0017 Cherry they used to use. I just tested the actuation force on my lab scale and found that the E-Switch actuates right at about 50 grams of force, while the KWJA0017 Cherry actuates at about 47 grams. In other words, not a big difference....Well, at least on one of them. The other measured almost exactly 20grams of force. Again, same model number.
--- Quote ---quietness of switches
E-SWITCH: is louder more clicky than the KWJA0017
KWJA0017: is much quiter than the E-SWITCH brand, almost whisper quiet
I know this is a minor area of preference but this actually relates to the
required force to activate switches.
--- End quote ---
One more time. The one Cherry is pretty much exactly the same volume, just a little higher frequency that the E-Switch. The other Cherry, same model number, is half as loud.
--- Quote ---longevity/ mechanical cycles
have not used E-SWITCH brand long enough to "kill" one yet
but specs rated it at 1 million cycles vs the 10 million for KWJA0017.
--- End quote ---
Don't go overboard on manufacturer reliability specs. They can pretty much put whatever they want on there because they know that the most it will ever cost them is a replacement switch when it doesn't happen to perform as well as they claim. And how many folks really know how many times a switch was actuated? (damned few ;) )
--- Quote ---and now off to shopping for the hard to find KWJA0017 cherry microswitch... ... anybody know where i can
still purchase these???
I live in the USA and its been tough to get a hold of these KWJA0017. I have purchase a few hundred here and there, but still on the look out for more! I guess next best bet would be overseas/EUROPE
anybody???
--- End quote ---
As I stated at the top of this post the numbers don't seem to jive across the board. Somewhere along the line, there were a bunch of Cherry switches that were made like you describe, and had an actuation force of 20grams. These are the switches I had in my hand while unsuccessfully attempting to persuade HAPP and E-Switch that something was not right. But all it looks like they knew was the printed spec, not what was actually being made and shipped. So the E-Switches were made to the exact specifications of the earlier Cherry, and it is very, very close (again, same model number).
So this is why we had some made to our specifications. The Groovy "Standard Soft Touch" switch was made to go the Cherry switch (the one you like) even one better. It's smoother, quieter, has a high actuation point, and actuates at around 15grams. And, they are now the standard switch we ship with all of our buttons. I think you will prefer these, even over the Cherry switches you like.
One more thing to consider; the new HAPP buttons (with the Suzo/HAPP logo) have a pre-engagement throw that is greater than they used to be. Some like it that way, and some don't. If you buy buttons and feel like they need to be pressed down too far to engage, then check this aspect. I like them a little sharper myself, which is why we will be adding some standard buttons in the next day or so which behave more closely like the older design.
RandyT
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