Ocarina of Time or Twilight Princess?

[MajorLag]

The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time has been widely regarded as one of the best, if not the best, games of all time. Since the Wii came out though, I've noticed that a lot of people think the new kid surpasses its aging brother. What do you think?

[MustardTent]

Twilight princess was very good, but when Ocarina came out it was really amazing.   Have to give the win to Ocarina, which I can't wait to see on the virtual console.

[Howard_Casto]

Never could stand any of the n64 games, mostly because zelda didn't make a smooth transition to 3d control-wise.  Wind Waker was decent, twilight princesss finally got it right.

[shardian]

Links Awakening on gba.

[rumpelstiltzkin]

Well i heard it the other way around from some reviewers who dont mess around and they said that twilight was a really good game but might not make it into the top 5 zelda games.  I cant vote cause i never played twilight

[MajorLag]

I'm not all the way through twilight yet, but I can say this much: Its good. Damn good. Its almost, but not quite, as good as Ocaraina IMO. Its very close, but Ocarina was just such a masterpiece of design, perfect in almost every way. I could go into more detail, and might later.

[shmokes]

I don't think Twilight Princess holds a candle.  Before Ocarina of Time nothing like it had ever been done before.  Twilight Princess is Ocarina of Time with better graphics.  With that said, I might point out that Majora's Mask and Wind Waker are conspicuously missing from your poll.  I, personally, find the art and graphics in Wind Waker far superior to any other Zelda.  And, while I may be in a minority here, I loved the sailing mechanic.  I haven't finished Twilight Princess, but I wouldn't be surprised if by the end of it I still prefer Wind Waker (though, the opposite wouldn't surprise me either).

[MajorLag]

I only polled on these two because that's where the contention really seems to be. I know people might favor a different Zelda over these two, but general consensus is that one of these two is the best Zelda ever.

I loved the art of Wind Waker too. And while I didn't really care for the sailing, it was never a big problem. Took about as much time as rolling around Hyrule anyway. Never really understood why people hated it so much.

Anyways, why I picked Ocarina over Twilight:
Try as I might, I really can't find a great way to describe it, but OoT has a certain quality that TP is a little lacking in. Completeness is the closest term I can think of. For instance, OoT has a prime object: The Ocarina. Its easily the most usefull thing you carry around aside from your sword and shield. It starts off as a way to open doors and activate quests , but before long its also your primary mode of transportation. You use it to flip day and night so you can achieve time specific tasks, or change the wheather. It can even do all sorts of crazy things like repair signs. In TP the nearest thing to that is Midna.
Which brings up my next point: Almost every object in OoT has 2 or more purposes, and many of them have no bearing on anything, but are just fun. In TP it seems like most items after the iron boots were very single purpose. And the spinner, only usefull for following pre-designated tracks. Compare that to something like the hookshot, which could get you lots of places that weren't really intended just because it allowed you to use it on more than one material. The clawshot in TP is pretty disappointing in comparison.
Then of course there were all the sidequests. Some usefull, some not so much. I still get a kick out of having a cow in my house. And the silly statues were always fun to mess around with. Its the little things like that that I'm talking about.

There are some fun things that TP has that OoT doesn't, like the Cave of Ordeals (way nastier than the WW CoO!). And on the whole I'd say the boss fights were more fun. Like I said, its really close, but IMO TP just isn't quite there.

[Howard_Casto]

Actually, the lack of a flute gimmick (which is why I didn't like most of the other games, game-play wise) is why I give tp a leg up on Oot.  Flute gimmicks are useless, because... well I shouldn't have to play a 13 piece song to open a lousy door that is what a key is for.  And transporting isn't really quick if it's a long and drawn out process.  The objects you get in tp are very useful and fun to use.  Flutes on the other hand are a cute gimmick, but not particularly fun.  Btw the top has a top of uses.  It doesn't slide on ice, it doesn't sink in the sand and when you pick up speed you can kill lesser enemies with it.  Every single item in tp (with the exception of the fishing pole) is very useful and can actually be used in combat... in other words zelda went back to it's roots and gave us legitmate secondary items. 

Remember the original zelda.... sure you collected triforce pieces, but they didn't do anything, they were merely a plot device.  The real fun came when you found a special item, with cool new powers in the dungeon you were in.  Sound familair?

[MajorLag]

Not every item in TP has secondary uses. What about the dominion rod? Only has one purpose: move certain statues. I tried using it as a no-fuel lantern, but it doesn't work very well. And it doesn't have any use in combat (other than when certain statues are in the right place). And so far the "don't sink in sand" usefullness of the spinner is only ever used in the one temple. Then theres the Hawkeye, the slingshot becomes redundant after you get the bow, the horse call comes too late in the game to be really usefull, and I've yet to find an area that actually requires the bomblings. But I haven't played through the entire game so some of this may be false.

Obviously its a matter of opinion, but I rather liked the Ocarina because it was a central object that drove the game. I thought playing song on it to warp was not only significantly faster than using Midna, but also, if you can believe this, more intuitive. The human brain is good at associating senses with memory, so to me it made a certain kind of sense to tie a location with a melody. If I needed to warp to somewhere I just thought of the place, whipped out the ocarina and played the tune associated to it in my memory. It doesn't make much sense at first glance, but I can definitely say it was quicker and more intuitive, for me anyway, than pulling up a map and pointing at it. Additionally, the warp points were better layed out. TP has a warp point in N. Faron, S. Faron, and the Forest temple, which are all very close, but only 2 warp points in the desert that are pretty far apart.

Oh. I didn't mention it before, but the wolf-form/human form aspect of the game doesn't seem nearly as well thought out as the child/adult aspect of OoT. Theres a lot more they could have done here. Off of my head: items that could only be used in wolf form, collars that act like the different tunics for the human form, and an entire parallel animal kingdom of Hyrule with its own side quests, shops, and the like.

[shmokes]

Actually, the lack of a flute gimmick (which is why I didn't like most of the other games, game-play wise) is why I give tp a leg up on Oot. 

Doesn't have a flute gimmick?  What about the howling/singing wolf?  The mechanic is exactly the same as the flute.  Hell, they even have you howling many of the same tunes that you played on the flute in previous games.

[spiffyshoes]

(with the exception of the fishing pole)

Actually the fishing pole was quite usefull in a certain sword battle that would allow you to distract your enemy and then get a quick attack in while he was off guard.

Hopefully that is a bit less of a spoiler. 

[shmokes]

That sounds too retarded to be true, but if it actually is for god's sake mark spoilers, especially on such a recent game.

[Howard_Casto]

The fishing pole trick is cute... reminded me of mega man games where you always used the lamest possible attack to kill the last robot. 

With the exception of the dominion rod (which I'll admit is kinda lame) all of those other items aren't items you find in dungeons, they are items you purchase or win in side-quests.  They aren't particularly useful, but you didn't work particularly hard for em either.  The sling-shot, in particular is only meant to help you learn shooting mechanics and hold you over until you get the bow and arrow (there are a few spiders on vines early on you have to flick off, so it's a stop gap). 

And yes, the howling bit is kinda like the flute stuff of old, but with a key difference.. I only have to play the stupid song once.  I don't have to play a song every time I want to open a door, teleport, ect.  8 songs stretched over 40 hours I can handle, stopping to play a song every 10 minutes on the other hand is kinda lame.  Plus they are side quests, so if you really wanted to you could skip em.

Btw I'm pretty sure opposite sides of the brain handle music and spacial relationships, so maybe you had an easy time relating a song to a place, but most people (including myself) probably didn't.  But even if you do, how lame is it that you had to play it manually?  Once is enough then you should have a "warp to section a" selection when you bring up the flute for warping. 


The sporatic position of the warp points in TP is intentional.  You'll notice earlier areas in the game have more warp points (because you needed them then and the hostile sections were smaller) than later ones.  Later areas intentionaly had few or no warp points so you would have to use that "useless" horse call or ride a warthog, which made you backtrack in areas that you could now do more stuff in due to unlocked items.  Basically it was another way to artificially increase the gameplay time. 

In otherwords, they metroid-ified zelda, which is a good thing because zelda has always floated a little too much towards the rpg side to be an adventure game. 


p.s. You can use the dominion rod for battle, it just doesn't work very well compared to your sword.

[MajorLag]

I much prefer that I had to play it manually, because it kept me from accidentally selecting the wrong location (in a menu or whatever you're thinking). It was a lot harder to accidentally play the wrong tune.

I know the warp point locations were intentional, I'm just saying I think OoT did a better job with its warp points.

Annother thing I realized while doing the 60 poe side quest: I really wish TP had a way to change day into night other than waiting. Maybe there is and I didn't notice. you can change night into day by traveling to the sky temple, thought you might be able to do the oposite by going to the twilight palace, but no dice.

[thennomeking]

Ive found that the more recent Zeldas are far more linear than the original, especially in the overworld aspects.  Which is probably one of the main reasons I liked Windwaker, sure you might not be able to get into the dungeons but you could sail to them and the surrounding islands.  Maybe it was all that time Ive logged into long boat sailing...

As for the Twilight Princess v. Ocarina debate, to me that is too hard to call.  I mean both are great games, but Ocarina felt so constricted to me.  The world felt so small and the game was a bit on the shortside - my last run was roughly 7 hours (a far cry from the 5:08 world record).  Yet I still find the game fun overall.

Twilight Princess had one part that really aggravated me besides the fishing part right at the beginning with no instructions.  That overall the game was easy.  My first play through, with ample messing around and collecting almost everything (missing a few hearts and poes) was right under 40 hours.  The boss fights were a joke, the minibosses were harder.  But the last item you get is just plain cool, and made for some awesome puzzles. 

Both games are great, but the original is still the king to me.

[rampy]

youtube (via digg)

"Using the Wiimote, Project64, GlovePIE, my homemade sensor bar, and a Bluetooth USB dongle, I've set up Orarina of Time to play with Twilight Princess controls."

[stephenp1983]

I have to agree with some of you, I really think twilight princess is an awsome game and I really enjoy it, but it feels like OOT with addons.  OOT was something new and never before see before and that's what makes it special.  I think twilight is more than just improved graphics, but not an entirely new experience like oot was.

[farmecologist]

I really am not fond of the wolf aspects of TP.  The wolf kind of feels 'tacked on' and unpolished to me.  Is it just me or do others agree?  Otherwise, A great game. 

[Howard_Casto]

I think you guys are looking at this the wrong way.  Just because OOT and TP are similar and OOT came first doesnt automatically make it the better game unless they actually take things away in TP (which they don't) or don't add anything (which they do). 

That would be like saying sf2 is better than super street fighter 2 turbo.  Obviously ssf2t is the better game because it is just like the original only you have 8 more characters and 6 more background stages. 

I mean do you guys think smb is better than smb3?  There was very little improvement between the two, but smb3 was better because it was the natural evolution of the series.  They made bigger levels, a flight mechanic and a few new power ups... and that's pretty much it 

OOT is pitifully short, it pales in comparison to TP.  Go back and play it right now and you'll realize how bad it is in this day and age.  I think you guys are looking through your nostalgia glasses again. 

I'm not trying to argue or change your decisions or anything, but I keep wondering why you guys say crap like "but at the time OOT had more of an impact on me".  So?  The issue isn't which one was a better game back in 1998, it's which one is a better game period.  You don't have to adjust for how old a game is, because a truely good game holds up over time.  a prime example is mario 64..... you never hear anybody talk about sunshine, but you sure do hear about mario 64.  Also you don't compare which one is more fun to play based on how you rememer OOT being 10 years ago, you compare which one is more fun to play right now.  Seriously, load it up... it didn't age well.

[shmokes]

I disagree.  If both came out today for the first time I would take TP, no question.  But TP is still not nearly as brilliant and revolutionary as OoT.  The people who made TP were largely able to paint by numbers, while OoT is an original masterpiece.  I guess what I'm trying to say is that there is no question that your regular 60 W lightbulb today is a huge improvement over the original, but it owes everything it is to Edison's original invention (actually it seems like Edison isn't really the one who invented it, but that's not really relevant here). 

[MajorLag]

I disagree. I honestly think that if TP had been released at the same time OoT was, that OoT would still be the better game. Remember though, I'm a guy who ranks Jumper and Jumper 2 in the top ten of Greatest Single Player Games Ever Bar None. Like everybody, I have my own set of criteria for determining a game's greatness and TP just wasn't as good as OoT IMO.

I just finished TP the other day, and I plan to 100% run OoT for Wintereenmas, so I'll let you know if my opinion changes.

[shmokes]

I'll tell you one thing, Midna is an enormous improvement over that obnoxious Navi from Oot.

[MajorLag]

I think thats something we can all agree on.

Freakin' Navi. Just shut up already!

[Howard_Casto]

I disagree.  If both came out today for the first time I would take TP, no question.  But TP is still not nearly as brilliant and revolutionary as OoT.  The people who made TP were largely able to paint by numbers, while OoT is an original masterpiece.  I guess what I'm trying to say is that there is no question that your regular 60 W lightbulb today is a huge improvement over the original, but it owes everything it is to Edison's original invention (actually it seems like Edison isn't really the one who invented it, but that's not really relevant here). 

Well yes, but you wouldn't put one of the edison 8 hour lightbulbs in your house anymore would you? I rest my case. 

[shmokes]

No, but OoT is still a fresh memory and playing that game was magical.  I got it on launch day and I remember going on and on for the next few weeks about it being hands-down the best videogame ever made.  There's something to be said for delivering something brand new that has never been done before.  Many people have refined the laws of motion and gravity and the theory of relativity.  They are better today than the originals because of the efforts of smart and talented people.  But they don't diminish from the originals that completely changed everything when their respective genius creators dropped them on the world.

I know in my brain that TP is a superior game, but I know in my heart that OoT is.  I've played them both and TP, while excellent, just doesn't make me feel the way OoT did.  OoT was dropped on the world and it completely changed everything.  The entire face of gaming was changed forever.  TP was dropped on the world and it changed nothing, except that there is another spectacular game in existence.

[Howard_Casto]

No, but OoT is still a fresh memory and playing that game was magical.  I got it on launch day and I remember going on and on for the next few weeks about it being hands-down the best videogame ever made.  There's something to be said for delivering something brand new that has never been done before.  Many people have refined the laws of motion and gravity and the theory of relativity.  They are better today than the originals because of the efforts of smart and talented people.  But they don't diminish from the originals that completely changed everything when their respective genius creators dropped them on the world.

I know in my brain that TP is a superior game, but I know in my heart that OoT is.  I've played them both and TP, while excellent, just doesn't make me feel the way OoT did.  OoT was dropped on the world and it completely changed everything.  The entire face of gaming was changed forever.  TP was dropped on the world and it changed nothing, except that there is another spectacular game in existence.

But see that is my point. A truely remarkable game does hold up over time.  If you asked me today which game I'd rather play, mario 64 or mario sunshine, I'd say mario 64 without even batting an eye-lash.  I wouldn't say the same with oot vs tp and I doubt many of you would either. 

[shmokes]

But that's only because Super Mario Sunshine wasn't especially good.  TP is still just the scientist who improved on the theory of relativity, while OoT is Einstein.  The main thing informing my decision here is my initial reaction to my first time playing through either game.  In that respect TP doesn't hold a candle, even though at face value it has refined nearly every facet of OoT.  It's really a semantics argument at this point.  We seem to agree on the principle fact that TP is an improvement on the original.  We just disagree on how much weight that should carry.

I'll say this.  Had I never played any Zelda or Zelda like games between Link to the Past and now, Twilight Princess would be even more magical than OoT.  But that ain't worth a whole lot seeing as I have played many such games.  Each one of those games diminishes my ability to be amazed -- similar in fact to your complaint about the FPS genre, come to think of it.  Now Zelda may not be in danger of that kind of stagnation yet, but the genre gets stagnant over time, not all at once.  As long as they continue delivering familiar experiences the return diminishes with each game.  Virtually nothing about OoT was familiar.  It was brand new entirely.  It was just ---smurfing--- jaw-droppingly amazing from beginning to end.  On the other hand TP, while fun from beginning to end, suffers somewhat from the been-there-done-that syndrome. 

[Glaine]

I'm going to jump on in and admit that I rarely ever finish a Zelda game because once I get really far in one real life demands a lot of my time and by the time I can get back to the game , I can't remember what it was I was doing and after running around without any clues as to what I need to do - I restart from the beginning and this cycle start a new.

A notepad reminder function would help a ton.
The only one I can remember finishing is the first one for game boy, cuz I could do that on car trips as a kid.

I've always enjoyed the crisp sprites and gameplay, and now the 3d models. But never really finish any of em.

[rampy]

I'm going to jump on in and admit that I rarely ever finish a Zelda game because once I get really far in one real life demands a lot of my time and by the time I can get back to the game , I can't remember what it was I was doing and after running around without any clues as to what I need to do - I restart from the beginning and this cycle start a new.

A notepad reminder function would help a ton.
The only one I can remember finishing is the first one for game boy, cuz I could do that on car trips as a kid.

I've always enjoyed the crisp sprites and gameplay, and now the 3d models. But never really finish any of em.

I have a similiar problem... I know it's cheezy, but an integrated "last quest/objective" accepted note would be useful... 

rampy

[Glaine]

And you know why PC RPGs don't have this failing? One letter: Q. Hit that, and most RPGs show up a *gasp* Quest screen saying eveything plotwise or important you've done and what you need to be doing next.

I suppose it would seem weird at first on a console, but only because it hasn't been there yet before.

As for the vote though, I'm for OOC. If Majora's Mask were an option I would still vote OOC. It just feels so classic.

[MajorLag]

Rampy, Glaine:
you'll be happy to note that there is a psychic lady in Castle Town in TP that, for the low low price of 10 rupees, will point you toward your next objective.

[RTSDaddy2]

SPOILER HERE (though it sounds as if most you guys are through it!)

Ok, so there are some benefits to being out of work...

I've been stuck at the beginning of the Goron mines for about a month or so.  I don't have a lot of patience, and it was thoroughly ticking me off that every time I saved it from the location of the first two Dodongos, it would load at the beginning of the mine again!

This morning I got up ahead of everyone else and made up my mind the Wii wasn't going off until I got through that stupid pulley door in the Dodongo room....and herein is what I wish to add that is a "spoiler."  If you haven't played TP that far, stop here.

        (pauses)

Ok, the marble waterfall in the water room took my breath away...but when I learned it was magnetic, and attracked the iron boots,  I thought I would scream!  Suddenly, here I am walking around on the ceiling of the mine itself!

What an incredible beautiful scene, and what a payoff for struggling through the lava at the beginning.  The marble appears throughout the Goron mines apparently, and makes the rest of the dungeon accessible.

Twilight Princess blows them all away...this is the first "role playing" game, if you will, that I've ever worked through - so far - without a cheat guide.  Every challenge just makes sense, and / or Midna (sp?) is there to offer the missing "link" if they don't.  The cut scenes are beautiful and the payoffs for completing a difficult challenge always seem huge.  If this isn't a 10 / 10, I don't know what is.

[MajorLag]

The magnet thing was one of the things I consider as a flaw in the game. Don't get me wrong, walking around on the celing and stuff was great, but...

[spoiler, sort of: highlight with mouse to read]
Thats the problem. It was so new to the experience, and it was NEVER USED AGAIN. The magnetic properties of the Iron Boots were only used in the one dungeon (and a little side dungeon, but only because it was themed same as the temple.)!

[sodapopinski]

Definitly Twilight Princess. Sword fighting seemed to be superior in the windwaker though.  I know its best 3D zelda, but I think Link to The Past is the best Zelda hands down.   

[Hoagie_one]

never played OoT

[Tahnok]

Rampy, Glaine:
you'll be happy to note that there is a psychic lady in Castle Town in TP that, for the low low price of 10 rupees, will point you toward your next objective.

Also, Midna will often tell you enough to remind you of what you're doing. Just press d-pad up and select "Talk to Midna".

But yes, I've also run into that problem with Zelda games. I rarely ever beat one all the way through. Mostly because, by the time I come back to it, I've forgotten how to control the character well enough to fight in the current area. After quickly dieing a few times, it gets frustrating. Actually, the same thing happens with a lot of games.

[stuzza]

But yes, I've also run into that problem with Zelda games. I rarely ever beat one all the way through. Mostly because, by the time I come back to it, I've forgotten how to control the character well enough to fight in the current area. After quickly dieing a few times, it gets frustrating. Actually, the same thing happens with a lot of games.

I have found the exact same problem with Twilight Princess.  I only play the game for about half an hour to an hour a time maybe once a week and so by the time I come back to it I've forgotten the move I learned 2 weeks ago!!  I guess the good thing is I'll get many months out of it. 

[TheResidentEvil]

I picked OoT. I really liked Oot back in its time and i ruined it for myself by not putting any effort into solving a lot of the side quests. i just ran from dungeon to dungeon. This time around though, i went slow and did everything i could in TP without a guide or help. I am torn though, i am going to stay on the fence on this one and say i like them both the same. The graphics in TP are just beautiful.