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turbotwist 2 choice - USB vs PS/2

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byKnight:

--- Quote from: ahofle on February 07, 2007, 06:33:47 pm ---I can understand how the size of the knob would affect the feel of the game, but I'm not seeing how it would affect the sensitivity setting.  One 360 degree rotation is 360 degrees no matter how big your knob is.   :laugh2:

--- End quote ---
I only got a C in freshman physics 20+ years ago. But I know enough to know you've completely missed the point.

See Randy's explanation above. It's quite succinct.

freckleface:
It's simple geometry applied to interface.  Not a matter of degrees traveled but circumference of dial relative to encoder definition relative to MAME sensitivity settings.

And on the buff controls maker thing:

I could get you there, Randy, with just 20 minutes three times a week.

rockin_rick:

--- Quote from: spelosi on February 06, 2007, 10:45:51 am ---I have found that PS/2 works a lot better. USB was causing some annoying backspin in tempest, even with the sensitivity lowered to 7% in mame, and acceleration turned off in windows.
--- End quote ---

I have also found this to be true.

[EDIT] This is, for me, only minor and doesn't really occur during gameplay in tempest.  Even then it only occurs in 125Hz USB mode - PS/2 and 250Hz USB don't exhibit this trait.  See my next post regarding these edits in more detail.[/EDIT]

--------------------

I've done a bunch of testing in Win XP with this.  Other OS's have different mouse update speeds, so different approches may be needed.  Givens: enhance pointer precision disabled, mouse speed set to middle.  Microsoft IntelliMouse Optical connected via USB the entire time.  XP installation has never had a PS/2 mouse connected to it before, nor have I touched the settings.  'Extra' IntelliMouse drivers not installed / XP installed the basic built in IntelliMouse drivers installed when it was setup.



USB mode does cause backspin during gameplay.  It is easily noticed when entering initials in Tempest, as it only moves two to three letters per one revolution of the knob.  So when you try to get to the middle/end of the alphabet, you give it a good spin and the letter just bounces between a couple/few.  Also noticed when spinning around the tube fast - it will just flutter back and forth between a few.

In Warlords, I would also see backspin during gameplay.

[EDIT] I believe that I may have had my tempest sensitivity set too high.  When I retested with Warlords I didn't see this.[/EDIT]

To test to determine backspin, in the windows desktop, turn the pointer speed to minimum.  Then give the spinner a spin.  For me, a good spin will backspin and make the pointer go the opposite way about an inch, then go the correct way 4-5 inches.  Another test I did was set the pointer speed to middle, and turn the spinner left.  The spinner should butt up against the left edge of the screen and stay stuck (like glue) there.  Once there spinning it left again should not cause the pointer to move - if it does it is backspinning.  It didn't stay stuck there indicating backspin.

I then decided to give PS/2 mode a whirl.  I got my extra 'green adapter' (the Microsoft branded USB to PS/2 adapter that came with my IntelliMouse Optical.  Shut down XP.  Plug in and restart.  New hardware found - installed.  Restart required.  After restart, spinner didn't work.  Restart again, it works.  I then retried my tests:

Turn speed to minimum - NO backspin at all!  Sweet.
Set speed to middle - pointer butts against left edge and sticks like glue!  Sweet!
Tempest - sweet!

I did some checking into all of this and have found out some things.  I downloaded a program called "mouse rate checker" v1.1b from:

http://tscherwitschke.de/mouseratechecker.html

This program will tell you the update rate of your mouse.  Using (moving the pointer with) my MS mouse via USB reports ~124Hz.  The TT2 in USB mode also reports ~124Hz.  Now here's what's interesting.  The TT2 in PS/2 mode reports ~235Hz.  (FWIW - the advanced mouse properties are set to the defaults - rate is set to the 100Hz, input buffer length = 100, fast initialization enabled.)  hmmmm

I'm theorizing that windows XP adapts to the rate required.  Perhaps as it gets data packets from the mouse, it detects the data getting close to the maximum, and speeds up the rate preventing overflow.  This higher rate will cause the movement data to be less (per update interval) and not overflow.  :dunno

Also, using the TT2 in PS/2 mode also doesn't allow (my) XP to shut off the monitor via Power Options (it always did before I plugged the TT2 into the PS/2 port).  Perhaps windows is thinking that the TT2 (mouse) is moving so it doesn't allow the monitor to shut down.

Next I decided to change the USB mouse update rate.  I found Mouse Rate Switcher:

http://www.softpedia.com/get/Tweak/System-Tweak/USB-Mouserate-switcher.shtml

I used it to set the update rate to 250Hz.  My USB MS mouse reports ~250Hz.  The USB TT2 reports ~250Hz.  No backspin.  Tests good.  Allows windows to shut off the monitor.

My advice is if using the TT2 with XP, use PS/2 or patch the USB rate to 250Hz.

With other OS's, probably the best way is to use USB and patch the rate.  Older MS OS's have slower PS/2 speeds and I'm unsure if you can speed those up.

Good luck,
Rick

RandyT:
Thanks for checking into the poll frequency hacks and reporting your results.


--- Quote from: rockin_rick on February 27, 2007, 11:00:00 pm ---Givens: enhance pointer precision disabled, mouse speed set to middle.

--- End quote ---

I just want to mention a couple of things;

The first is that your mouse speed needs to be set to the lowest position under 98SE and earlier and dead center on 2K / XP.  Enhance pointer precision / acceleration also needs to be disabled.  Any other settings will cause more data to be kicked through to the games than is actually coming from the spinner and will cause problems.  You should probably try your tests again at this setting to see how things improve.

The other thing is to be careful not to set the sensitivity settings in a game too high.  Tempest is a real stickler about this.  It used an encoder having only 72 apertures at 1x  for a full rotation of the spinner!.  It should always be set to 6 (perfect divisor) or below.  If your mouse speed under Windows was set to "middle", even a setting of 6 could cause big problems.

Regardless of the settings in the hardware, Windows XP alway fixes the report rate to about 125hz without the hack.  But this should be more than sufficient to prevent any backspin issues during gameplay, as long as the mouse speed is set correctly at the desktop and the sensitivity levels in the game are set to reasonable levels.

Keep in mind that backspin is something that can be made to happen with virtually any spinner/trackball on the market, even the low-res ones.  Crank up the speed of the mouse at the desktop level and then set a very high sensitivity on a game, and you will see it.  The extra resolution of the TT2 just moves the parameters that can cause it into a lower range.

Also, I have experimented with a 500hz version of the firmware and it appears to work under 2K and 98SE.  I consider it "experimental" due to the unknown stress it puts on the rest of the system, but I'd be happy to offer it to those who would like it for a small charge.  It does not improve performance under XP at all, due to what was stated above.

RandyT


*edit*

Fixed an incorrect statement I made by replacing it with the underlined text.

spelosi:

--- Quote ---The first is that your mouse speed needs to be set to the lowest position under any version of Windows.  Any other settings will cause more data to be kicked through to the games than is actually coming from the spinner and will cause problems.  You should probably try your tests again at this setting to see how things improve.
--- End quote ---

Unless I did something wrong (I mave very limited experience with dual mouses) I found setting the mouse speed to the the lowest is not practical. Both mouse devices seem to share the same settings. Setting the mouse to the lowest resolution makes my trackball useless.

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