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New arcade vga on pc monitor pics, Not impressed at all.
RandyT:
Sorry this took so long...been up to my armpits in bits and bytes.....
Here ya go, Steve. I got the good camera out just for you. As you can see, it has some pretty sick macro capabilities.
This image is a very small section of mostly solid white. As the picture indicates, my blue convergence is slightly off and its level is jacked up a little higher than the others, but I like my colors adjusted a little "cold".
The presence of the 6 horizontal scan-lines in this image, as indicated by the black spaces between them, is undeniable.
RE: Your Rant...
Some things just are and those things are fact and not open to opinion. To use your analogy about the Earth being flat, to state so in today's world does not mean you have a valid opinion, rather that you have a screw loose and require observation. While that example is much more extreme than this one, this is still a technological fact. There is no magic, nor mystery. It's not a topic that is open for opinions.
If you review the way this fiasco went down, an individual who was obviously more knowledgeable on the subject than yourself attempted to prevent the furtherance of misinformation by attempting to give you, and everyone on this board, the benefit of his knowledge. You promptly, and incorrectly, refuted his statements. It was only then that I became involved. And while it is not my job to educate you personally, it is my moral obligation as a member of the community to help stem the flow of misinformation where I can. And, I'm sorry but, at this moment it is flowing from you. If that makes me "arrogant" and/or "egotistical", then I guess I am guilty as charged.
RandyT
wpcmame:
--- Quote from: AndyWarne on September 15, 2006, 12:56:40 pm ---The first type are the games where the designer drew out the character sprites on squared paper and then they were mapped into a ROM. Galaga, Pacman etc.
I believe these games are simply better at native resolutions with the AVGA, no question about that in my mind. On my 31Khz monitor in my Sega cabinet these games look fantastic. Horizontal movements are much smoother as well which is another benefit of the native mode: correct vertical refresh rate.
--- End quote ---
Do you display these on a vertical monitor? Otherwise, can you explain how you display pacman at correct refreshrate on a 31KHz monitor?
patrickl:
Gents in the scanline debate,
I think you need to get a definition of "scanline" to work on because you seem to be talking about different things. The technical definition or scanline is the line which the electron beam scans while drawing the picture. These "scanlines" you cannot see on a screen other than by seeing the mask/grill or whatever.
What people refer to with visible "scanlines" is caused by interlacing. With interlacing the picture is drawn in two runs of the beam. Each half on a different set of alternate scanlines. So after each run of the beam the other half of the scanlines will be black. This is meant to not really be visible to the human eye (the refresh rate is choosen so it goes too fast to detect), but with low refresh rates I guess it is visible. A photo camera can show these scanlines, but on the same screen with a longer shutter speed you will not even see these scanlines. So it depends on the shutter speed of the camera and the refresh rate of the monitor if these interlace scanlines will show in the picture or not.
Randy seems to be talking about "scanlines caused by interlacing" while Xiaou2 has looked up the technical meaning of the term scanline, but also seems to find other definitions. For instance the top picture in reply 43 which is not really a scanline, but more a demonstration how shutter speeds can show you half drawn images on a TV picture.
RandyT:
--- Quote from: patrickl on September 20, 2006, 12:15:45 pm ---I think you need to get a definition of "scanline" to work on because you seem to be talking about different things. The technical definition or scanline is the line which the electron beam scans while drawing the picture. These "scanlines" you cannot see on a screen other than by seeing the mask/grill or whatever.
--- End quote ---
A scanline is a scanline is a scanline. The mask is exactly that, a mask. Black and white TV's do not have these masks so the lines look a little different, but they are the exact same thing. Tell me, are you not really you, just because someone views you through a screen door?
--- Quote ---What people refer to with visible "scanlines" is caused by interlacing. With interlacing the picture is drawn in two runs of the beam. Each half on a different set of alternate scanlines. So after each run of the beam the other half of the scanlines will be black. This is meant to not really be visible to the human eye (the refresh rate is choosen so it goes too fast to detect), but with low refresh rates I guess it is visible. A photo camera can show these scanlines, but on the same screen with a longer shutter speed you will not even see these scanlines. So it depends on the shutter speed of the camera and the refresh rate of the monitor if these interlace scanlines will show in the picture or not.
--- End quote ---
Close, but not quite:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3AScan+Line&btnG=Google+Search
Your definition of interlace is sort of ok, but only if a "run" of the beam is your terminology for a vertical refresh. But you are making a big mistake in assuming that arcade machines use interlace. Theoretically, they could use interlace, but I am not aware of a single classic game that does. So the function of interlace does not apply here and that is precisely why the black lines are visible. That second offset sweep never occurs to fill them in. The way interlace functions was brought up in support of the existence and visibility of scanlines. If scanlines weren't as I stated, interlace methodology would not only not work, but it would be pointless.
The effect seen with the camera is not from interlace, rather from the scanning of the CCD (VIDIKON, whatever) not being in sync with the scanning of the CRT. A slow shutter speed or very fast scanning CCD will minimize this effect when filming.
--- Quote ---Randy seems to be talking about "scanlines caused by interlacing" while Xiii2 has looked up the technical meaning of the term scanline, but also seems to find other definitions. For instance the top picture in reply 43 which is not really a scanline, but more a demonstration how shutter speeds can show you half drawn images on a TV picture.
--- End quote ---
I think you are confused about who is saying what. I know exactly what I am talking about.
RandyT
Xiaou2:
I believe I know why you see the lines and I do not.
Its because your monitor is higher resolution than mine.
In such a case... the monitor is being fed too little information to fill all its
available pixels up... so it skips every other line when drawing. This causes
the lines to be there.. and maybe more visiable than not.
However, on my turbo monitor, all the pixels are lit up, as there are no extras
so there is no need to skip lines. Thereore, you do not see the black lines.
The true Drawing of the lines is too fast to see, unless using photography.
The black lines are not created as an effect by drawing.. but instead, because they being skipped. However, not all monitors are skipping like this. The skipping is usually done in
Interlace modes only... or maybe in such a case where there isnt enought data givin to completely fill all the pixels.. as described above.
Btw, there are arcade games that have Interlacing. Tekken III is one of them.
It can be turned on in the service menu. This is a late model (3d fighting)
game... and such a feature was not in the golden oldies as far as I know.
And finally, my rather newish Panasonic TV does not have the appearence of the
scanlines either. Its limited use, and its rather new age, tell me that the guns are not
out of whack. I can upload a pic later.
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