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New arcade vga on pc monitor pics, Not impressed at all.

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Xiaou2:
 Nice try but not good enough.

 First off,  we arte talking about Old monitors without Apeture Grills.  As I doubt any game
before maybe the 90s used them.  And those games were probably the new 3d games,
racers, and pc driven stuff.

 The majority of old skool classics were done with shadowmasks.. .and not aperture grills.
In fact, the pixil arrangement and size is different as well for those monitors.

 The pic you show has No blue element showing aslo.  Where is that located?

 There is also considerable blur.

 I just looked at my Turbo Monitor under a High magnifaction loop,  and there is ONLY
a shadowmask.   All the shadow masks lines are the same thickness.. and there is no
thick bar as seen in your pic.   

 A) what monitor are you running?
 B) what is driving your monitor?
 C) lets see a pic with all r,b,g elements drivin

 I suspect these form much of the problems that you are seeing...  and is Not true
to what is happening.

 Not sure if I can snap a pic with my loop,  but i may try to do so later.


 Btw - some games interntionally make bars and seperation.  Better check other games
and non-title screens.    I suspect that title screen is doing just that.

RandyT:

--- Quote from: Xiaou2 on September 16, 2006, 02:17:14 am --- Nice try but not good enough.

 First off,  we arte talking about Old monitors without Apeture Grills.  As I doubt any game
before maybe the 90s used them.  And those games were probably the new 3d games,
racers, and pc driven stuff.

 The majority of old skool classics were done with shadowmasks.. .and not aperture grills.
In fact, the pixil arrangement and size is different as well for those monitors.

--- End quote ---

This is not an "Aperture Grille" rather a "Triad Shadow Mask", and we were talking about the existence and visibility of scan lines, not "old monitors without Aperture Grills".  The photo tells it all.


--- Quote --- The pic you show has No blue element showing aslo.  Where is that located?

--- End quote ---

Hmmm...from left to right there is a red area, a green area and a black area.......


--- Quote --- There is also considerable blur.

--- End quote ---

There is absolutely NO blur.  If there were, you would not be able to even see those tiny lines of the shadow mask.


--- Quote --- I just looked at my Turbo Monitor under a High magnifaction loop,  and there is ONLY
a shadowmask.   All the shadow masks lines are the same thickness.. and there is no
thick bar as seen in your pic.   

--- End quote ---

First of all, your Turbo monitor is vertically oriented, so the scanlines go up and down and second, your pictures indicate it to be in pretty rough shape.  It's probably in dire need of some adjustment, but it might even be beyond that stage due to its age.  As I stated earlier, if the EB gun is out of focus, you might not see the lines.  You will also have some very fuzzy images, and it looks like you do.


--- Quote ---A) what monitor are you running?
 B) what is driving your monitor?
 C) lets see a pic with all r,b,g elements drivin

--- End quote ---

None of this is important.  It is an RGB monitor running at 15.75khz H and 60hz V.  The reason the blue is missing from the image is because it was a yellow image with a red outline.  Red + Green = Yellow and Red + nothing =Red.  The blue part would have just filled in the black area next to the green and the big black horizontal line would still be there.  To provide you with another picture would just be a further waste of my time as you would only attempt to conjure up some other unrelated thing in an attempt to refute what anyone who knows anything about monitors knows to be fact.  What you see in the photo I provided is precisely why there are options in MAME to simulate that effect on a PC monitor.


--- Quote --- I suspect these form much of the problems that you are seeing...  and is Not true
to what is happening.

--- End quote ---

Steve, the only problem here is that you formulated (and published for consumption) a conclusion without enough research and you are now trying to change your statements in mid-stream.  You can't come to a conclusion based on one very old and poorly performing example.


--- Quote ---Btw - some games interntionally make bars and seperation.  Better check other games
and non-title screens.    I suspect that title screen is doing just that.

--- End quote ---

Grasping at straws = You.

RandyT

AndyWarne:

--- Quote from: RandyT on September 15, 2006, 11:49:31 pm ---
It's not surprising that they look great on the 31khz monitor in your Sega cab (Sanwa is it?)  There is a big difference between the dot pitch of an arcade monitor and that of PC monitor.  On larger arcade monitors the dot pitch is somewhere around .75mm.  Most PC monitors have a dot pitch that is roughly one third of that.  The large dot pitch allows the edges of the pixels to blur together and that just doesn't happen with a modern PC monitor, even though both are capable of scanning at the same 31.5khz frequency.
--- End quote ---

Perfectly aware of that of course. Well if the games look great on that monitor they look even better on my 24 inch LCD screen...


--- Quote from: RandyT on September 15, 2006, 11:49:31 pm ---This is true regardless of the way the game was designed.  Either the graphics were intended for the gross dot pitch of an arcade monitor, or they were not.

--- End quote ---

I would bet that game designers never have any concerns about monitor dot pitch. The early games were designed with game hardware in mind, and to economise on RAM as much as possible. The monitors would have simply been a bought-in afterthought. The pixel size would not have been influenced by dot pitch.


--- Quote ---The difference is akin to HD-TV against conventional. HD looks great with the right kind of source but with a poor source, lower definition might be better for some people.

--- End quote ---

--- Quote from: RandyT on September 15, 2006, 11:49:31 pm ---
I'm not sure of the point you are trying to make with this analogy.  The PC monitor is the "HD-TV" and the arcade graphics (all low-res arcade graphics, in fact) would be considered the "poor source".  A good HD TV will incorporate some rather impressive upscaling technology to smooth out a low-res source.  It doesn't try to sharpen the blocky edges.

--- End quote ---

The analogy is valid. HD-TV produces a more accurate representation of the source by increasing the resolution to more closely match that of the original (which can be thought of as infinite if you go right back to the actual scene). The resolution ends up being limited only by the LCD panel.
Running a game at native resolution produces a 100% accurate representation of the hardware source by matching the pixels, so it is in fact the ultimate in definition, again limited only by the LCD panel. The methods differ but the result is the same.


I have posted some more description and a couple of pictures on:
http://www.ultimarc.com/avgainf.html

PS agree 100% with Randy on scanlines...

Xiaou2:
 This is what I see as a "Scanline"

 

 The darker looking bar..  BUT,  its not noticible with the naked eye.   The camera
is the only thing able to pick it up.

 Now, Here are the Shadowmasks pics...  NO 'SCANLINES'.

 


 

 

 


  These Pics were Not easy to accomplish.    Also, they arnt as perfect as seem with
the eye.   The problem is that the camera pics up too much light.. and blurs it over the
very clear shadowmask.   The eye sees it fine, but the camera blurs it a bit.   Im sure
there are people with better camera skills and cameras that could capture them even
better..  however, they proove my point.

 Seen in the pics are RGB block sections in an alternating brick layout.   The lines
in-between them are the shadowmask.   NOT Scanlines!    There are places where
one or more Red, Green, Or Blue  Pixel Elements  are "OFF"..  which then causes
them to be Black.   This LOOKS like is one of your so called scanlines.   However, 
its NOT the case.  As you can see very clearly where all 3 rbg elements are lit.. 
there is no thick line between them.

 My monitor is in great shape, and in good foucs, with briilliant brightness, colors,
and clarity.    while it may not be perfect..  its easy to see that its not a monitor
problem... but instead one of human perception.

 

 Btw - I disargee with you Andy...

 "I would bet that game designers never have any concerns about monitor dot pitch. The early games were designed with game hardware in mind, and to economise on RAM as much as possible. The monitors would have simply been a bought-in afterthought. The pixel size would not have been influenced by dot pitch"

 Designing a game like Turbo..  you can see how in my SVGA -vs- Arcade pics  how the pixels
are carfully designed with odd colors and placements in order to make the car look shaded
in a certain way... a way that was well beyond the color pallette of the hardware.

 Many game objects at such low resolutions are very hard to construct in a way that
makes them look good and clear.

 Id be willing to bet that the DEVS actually got out the specific hardware they inteded to use,
including the monitior with its specific resolution and pitch...   and began making the objects
to look good on them.   

 Again, looking at the Turbo car example.. and how Awefull its colors look in mame:

 

Nobody would use that Pink in a game on purpose.   Yet, when that pink is placed
next to the other colors.. it just creates a warm highlight.  Not pink at all.   This cant
be designed without actual experimentation on the actual monitor, when in development
stages.
 
 Too high of Dot pitch,  Differing Shadowmasks, Resolutoion, ect..  all have a profound
effect on how these images appear.   




Patent Doc:

--- Quote ---Sweet jeebus, Steve, how do you come up with this stuff?
--- End quote ---


--- Quote --- The pic you show has No blue element showing aslo.  Where is that located?

Hmmm...from left to right there is a red area, a green area and a black area.......
--- End quote ---

 :laugh2: :laugh2: Randy you have just made my weekend.  That was awesome. 

Andy and Randy,

Great explanations. 

Patent Doc

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