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If you would like to build multi LED-Wiz support into your software...

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horseboy:
I wish I knew what you guys were saying.  :dizzy: It sounds like a fun conversation.

Howard_Casto:
Randy I don't mean to insult you, but you don't know anything about running a business or if you do you are purposefully doing the opposite of what you are supposed to do, if you did you would never talk so poorly to people in a public forum and you would be more willing to help.  You don't have to "school" me in the inner workings of business, my degree is in business, which is exactly why I am so critical about your dealings, particularly with the persentation of your products and dealings with the public.  You go against what is proper p.r. and practice bad marketing by releasing a product before the software is ready.  This very conversation is proof of it.  I can talk to you however I want, because I am the customer.  You can't talk to me however you want, at least not in a public forum because you are representing a company and your attitudes and choice of language/tone can sway potential customers from purchasing your products.  Is that fair?  Of course it isn't.  You have to deal with it though if you wish to maintain a professional image.  You have a right as a vendor to ignore me but when you do respond you have to be extremely careful with what you say.  That my friend is your business lesson for the day.

And the whole reason I refuse (you heard me refuse) to write a dll/ocx/ect for you is because that is your responsibility and you haven't made the tools available for me to do so.  Why in the world would I make you a new interfeace for free so you can make more money?  I'm helpful but I'm not stupid.  I think the fact that people in this community, including myself are willing to make software that uses your poduct and release it for free is more than generous.  And you should really be more grateful to us as at this point you are literally dependant upon the kindness of strangers.

I am sure that a percentage of customers are more than willing to buy your product and have it do nothing but display blinky patterns.  I'm also pretty sure that most of them expect it to do more than that and be useful for something.  And I'm almost postive that none of them bought it thinking that it would be a practical and cost-effective way to control the keyboard leds in mame.


Well the clipboard thing was more about me a sf talking about bypassing buddamame and using external sources to control the ledwiz, not a replacment for your clipboard method.  But you asked about it so I answered.  I can probably think of a dozen methods that would work... writing text files, a com object ect....  The easiest is winsock(basically tcp/ip like you said)... pop in the object..... set the url to the local address (127.0.0.1) and you have instant, reliable two-way communication between two applications.  You keep seem to come back to communicating with the resident app though.  Why do you need to ever do that?  If you are writing a program then you can bypass the resident app and you should bypass the resident app.  All the lwa files are are a series of regular commands put in a text file, and since that is the only thing the resident app can do that direct communication via dll/ocx/ect can't the whole resident app thing can be ditched?   What I am saying is leave the frikkin clipboard method in there if you wish, just take the comand-line app and have it work without interfacing with the resident app.  Then the clipboard method is no longer holding back the command-line app and programmers can interact with the device with something as simple as a shell call and don't even have to deal with shell and wait. Of course a proper dll also needs to be written.

I'm not in doubt about people writing a lot of stuff in vb, I'm just in doubt about a lot of people writing complex stuff in vb.  I push the poor thing to it's limits.  Most people just write simple stuff with it though.   I think the only hi-profile thing written in vb in the emulation community is the daphne-loader and it's being replaced. 

The thing about the clipboard is... I don't hate it, I just know how it works intimately and because of that I can see how things can go wrong.  The thing that pops into my head immediately that is actually used often with mame cab software is the printscreen function.  It uses the clipboard and is a clipboard hog.  Also users do it a lot externally.  And whenever you grab the screen, the data mode of the clipboard is changed.  In some languages the datamode is automatically changed when you go to set text, in others it isn't.  On top of that I also know that the time it takes for the clipboard to be filled and emptied is quite variable.  So variable that it isn't possible to predict how long it'll take for "function a"  to complete on all systems.  Also it's very dependant upon the os.  I could see m$ reformatting the clipboard in vista or even removing it in lue of something else. 

RandyT:

--- Quote from: Howard_Casto on August 04, 2006, 04:59:30 pm ---Randy I don't mean to insult you, but you don't know anything about running a business or if you do you are purposefully doing the opposite of what you are supposed to do, if you did you would never talk so poorly to people in a public forum and you would be more willing to help.  You don't have to "school" me in the inner workings of business, my degree is in business, which is exactly why I am so critical about your dealings, particularly with the persentation of your products and dealings with the public.  You go against what is proper p.r. and practice bad marketing by releasing a product before the software is ready.

--- End quote ---

I guess that's where the textbook and the real world part ways.  In Utopia, yes.  But on this planet, it just doesn't work that way.  Just ask anyone with a real job in that sector.  You offer specific functionality that you make clear at the time of purchase and continue to work to the end you desire, increasing the capabilities of the device along the way to the delight of your customers (who were never promised the new functionality they eventually receive.)  Why do you think there are always so many firmware and driver upgrades?  Why would one not wait until every last part was done and totally bug-free? You don't want to wait that long because your customers don't want you to and your competition won't let you.


--- Quote --- This very conversation is proof of it.  I can talk to you however I want, because I am the customer. 
You can't talk to me however you want, at least not in a public forum because you are representing a company and your attitudes and choice of language/tone can sway potential customers from purchasing your products.  Is that fair?  Of course it isn't.  You have to deal with it though if you wish to maintain a professional image.  You have a right as a vendor to ignore me but when you do respond you have to be extremely careful with what you say.  That my friend is your business lesson for the day.

--- End quote ---

Howard, you and I have history that precedes GGG and I'll talk to you as though you are the person you are, regardless of the license you think you have with me because I am a developer.  I don't have to castrate myself to run a business, and if you ever manage to get one under your belt, remember this: Right is Right and when there is a goofball "customer" who is intent on dragging your name through the mud for no other reason than his perverse self-gratification, you shouldn't allow yourself to be castrated either.  If you do not have respect for yourself, you cannot have true respect for others.  There's your lesson for the day.

That being said, I'm RandyT (Randolph Turner, if you prefer).  I don't represent anyone but myself and I have been in the hobby for the last 25 years and here nearly as long as you.  And here I will remain, regardless of your many attempts to discredit and discourage the things I have done.  As a long-time member of this community, I provide guidance where I can and listen to what people ask for.  Sometimes I even deliver it, and at a price well below what others would have you pay.  Glad to make your acquaintance.  May I speak my mind now?


--- Quote ---And the whole reason I refuse (you heard me refuse) to write a dll/ocx/ect for you is because that is your responsibility and you haven't made the tools available for me to do so.

--- End quote ---

I can't prove that you are unable to do what you expect from others, so I will indeed take your word that you can... but refuse to.


--- Quote ---And you should really be more grateful to us as at this point you are literally dependant upon the kindness of strangers.

--- End quote ---

You like to use the word "us" a lot, Howard.  How many here stand behind what you say?  From what I can tell, it's just you and I banging heads here, just like we have so many times in the past.  Your constant use of  "we" and "us" make it sound as though you have a virtual army of followers.  Is this truly the case?

And, FWIW, I don't rely on the "kindness of strangers".  Mostly because the developer types who contact me are often very friendly and knowledgable people.  They tend to be intelligent and polite.  People I enjoy exchanging ideas with and who I don't consider strangers after the first or second contact.  At times, I also provide hardware, free of charge,  to those who have previously demonstrated their commitment to this community as a whole and who don't do what they do for thinly veiled self interest.  Yes, it makes things better for me to do these things.  It also makes things better for you and everyone involved in this hobby.  If I didn't believe strongly in what I do, and have the passion to take people head-on who would stand in my way, I would never have invested the thousands of hours, and many thousands of dollars of my own money,  to make the products I sell a reality.  By your definition, everyone here relies on the kindness of strangers, Howard.  Even you.


--- Quote ---I am sure that a percentage of customers are more than willing to buy your product and have it do nothing but display blinky patterns.  I'm also pretty sure that most of them expect it to do more than that and be useful for something.  And I'm almost postive that none of them bought it thinking that it would be a practical and cost-effective way to control the keyboard leds in mame.

--- End quote ---

I guess I was wasting my time doing market research and listening to the scores of folks who said they would be more than happy to be able to just set the lights to any color they wanted, light up the lights the buttons on their panel used in a specific game, and do a little animation in-between.  I guess I should have just asked you what everyone wanted instead.  I didn't realize that you spoke for so many here.

Trite sarcasm aside, it's natural for one to continue to want more and better things once the initial needs have been met.  The hardware has a lot of possibilities that go beyond what was originally considered adequate (or possible.)  One of the things responsible for the higher bar is PowerMAME.  It showed what the hardware could do in very talented hands.  Unfortunately, anything you or I provide will pale in the light of that software, as neither you nor I are MAME developers, nor have the resources to maintain a custom build.  And that is what will ultimately be required to provide the functionality that many will now seek.  But things didn't start that way such a short time ago.


--- Quote ---Well the clipboard thing was ... <snip>

--- End quote ---

Everything you stated was in response to my specific question about a replacement for the clipboard method which you say should not be used.  Either what you suggested works as a replacement or it does not.  I am fully aware of the myriad ways to communicate between hardware and software.  Your rambling ambiguities related to COM objects, client/server applications and so on, does nothing to address the question at hand.  A TCP/IP situation is only viable if the developer can write a TCP/IP client in his/her language of choice.  If everyone can do that (show of hands please?)  then I will knock out a server in no time flat.  However, if only 10 or 20% have this ability, I won't waste my time as it does not address the needs of the product in the same way that the clipboard method does.


--- Quote ---I'm not in doubt about people writing a lot of stuff in vb, I'm just in doubt about a lot of people writing complex stuff in vb.  I push the poor thing to it's limits.

--- End quote ---

I'm sorry, Howard.  I just completely lost it on that one.  You push VB to it's limits????  Weren't the earlier versions of Word, Excel and Access written in VB?  Isn't that the reason why VBA is so tightly integrated with those apps?  I don't think the software you write is worthy of a comparison to programs like these or others that truly do push the limits of the language.  Sorry.


--- Quote ---The thing about the clipboard is... I don't hate it, I just know how it works intimately and because of that I can see how things can go wrong. The thing that pops into my head immediately that is actually used often with mame cab software is the printscreen function.  It uses the clipboard and is a clipboard hog.  Also users do it a lot externally.  And whenever you grab the screen, the data mode of the clipboard is changed.  In some languages the datamode is automatically changed when you go to set text, in others it isn't.  On top of that I also know that the time it takes for the clipboard to be filled and emptied is quite variable.  So variable that it isn't possible to predict how long it'll take for "function a"  to complete on all systems.  Also it's very dependant upon the os.  I could see m$ reformatting the clipboard in vista or even removing it in lue of something else.

--- End quote ---

First off, if you are trying to use the clipboard to playback animations while MAME is running, you have bigger problems.  I will try one more time, Howard;  You don't use clipboard command to try to playback frames of animation.  It's not fast enough and it was not designed for the task.  That is why the resident program has playback commands built in so that a user need only to tell the resident software what file to play and how many times to play it.  From that moment on, the clipboard is no longer utilized.  If I intended for it to be any other way, I would not have taken the time to build animation playback routines, rather left those to the developers.  One more time, DO NOT USE THE CLIPBOARD TO PLAY BACK FRAMES OF ANIMATIONS.  IT WAS NOT DESIGNED FOR THAT TASK.

Oh, and Microsoft has done some silly things in the past, but trust me, the standard clipboard as used by every program in the last 10 years is not going away.  Backward compatibility will be there for quite some time to come.


RandyT

Timoe:
What does FWIW mean?


If I dont electrocute myself trying to figure out how to wire up an led, or worse yet, poke out my EYE with a resistor, this LEDWiz thing looks to be pretty exciting.

horseboy:
For what it's worth.

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