Is it safe to buy a 360?

[Dizzle]

I'm finally breaking down and am looking to jump into the "next generation" of consoles.
I'm wanting to buy a Xbox 360 ($399 is the most I'll pay for a console) but I'm hearing about all the problems people have been having with their units (overheating, the dreaded red light, etc.)

Does anyone know if Microsoft has improved on the reliability of their units?

[pointdablame]

Newer units are just fine from what I've read.  I don't have one myself however, so take that into account.

[muell67]

I bought mine back in march and the only problem I have is that occasionaly games will crash or lock up. About once every two or three hours. I think this is actually the games though and not the hardware. It usually happens when Im doing somthing unexpected, Like donuts in PG3 while rotating the camera quickly.

[Goz]

X360's are safe to buy from legitimate sources.

[shmokes]

You've held off this long, I'd wait to see if they cut prices for the holiday personally. 

Or, maybe Sony will even be forced to cut the price down to your $399 threshold and the PS3 will end up being a big hit.  This is looking less and less likely, but who knows?

Better yet, save half your money by buying a Wii (hopefully the name will change) and put all that extra money into modding an Xbox.  The graphics aren't as good, but at this point I'd take a modded Xbox over an Xbox 360 any day of the week.  A modded Xbox with 100 or so Xbox games should make it a lot eaiser to wait for the current exhorbitant prices of the next gen systems (Wii not included) to come down.

[pointdablame]

You've held off this long, I'd wait to see if they cut prices for the holiday personally. 

Or, maybe Sony will even be forced to cut the price down to your $399 threshold and the PS3 will end up being a big hit.  This is looking less and less likely, but who knows?

Better yet, save half your money by buying a Wii (hopefully the name will change) and put all that extra money into modding an Xbox.  The graphics aren't as good, but at this point I'd take a modded Xbox over an Xbox 360 any day of the week.  A modded Xbox with 100 or so Xbox games should make it a lot eaiser to wait for the current exhorbitant prices of the next gen systems (Wii not included) to come down.

There's a lot of really great wishes in your post there shmokes, but I'm afraid they aren't going to happen.

A microsoft exec was quoted recently saying there would be no price decrease on the 360 this year, so the best we can hope for is maybe a bundle (which I guessed here on the boards a while back, but that's irrelevant)

With the PS3's BluRay drive costing $350 by itself, the PS3 will NOT be $399.  Sony is willing to lose money on the system, in fact they are willing to lose quite a lot on them... but at $399 they'd be taking a bath, and it would destroy the company.  That's not even pessimism.... its the truth.  The PS3 launching (and selling well) at $399 would mean the end for Sony.

The Wii is Nintendo's new game console... just deal with it.  I hate the name too, although I've grown more indifferent over it since the announcement.  But they've already poured millions into the name.. it's not going to change. Guaranteed.

[JONTHEBOMB]

Does anyone know if Microsoft has improved on the reliability of their units?

I just got a new one because of sound problems with my old one.  So far nothing out of the ordinary has occurred with the new one.  If you decide to pick up a 360 I would suggest getting a warranty.  Gamestop offers a 1-year warranty for $40 and inside the box microsoft offers a 2-year warranty for $60.

[AllisterFiend]

I've had my XBox360 since day one and have had no problems at all.


Allister Fiend

[somunny]

I picked one up last month and probably have put over a hundred hours on it without any problems (knock on wood).  However, I did pick up the two year extended warranty just to cover my --I'm attempting to get by the auto-censor and should be beaten after I re-read the rules--.

Steve

[shmokes]

I'd put money on a Wii name change.  Not a lot because i think there's a higher chance that it won't change (and I'd probably deserve odds) but I'd make a friendly $10 bet with someone.

Nintendo did not count on all the urine jokes.  I'll take your gaurantee and raise you a guarantee that even if Nintendo does not change the name they have seriously considered it.  The "millions" they have spent on the name has to be weighed against a significant loss of interest in their profuct.  If they decide the name will hurt the company more than writing off the "millions" as an unfortunate loss they'll change the name -- simple as that.

[pointdablame]

I'd make a friendly $10 bet with someone.

you're on buddy.  If Nintendo changes the name of their new console to anything other than Wii by the time it releases in the US, I'll paypal you $10 or send you a joystick or something.

I'm making a really safe bet here. 

[Sir Auros]

They were safe to buy at launch. Granted, mine had to be replaced, but that's just the way consoles launch. I'd recommend either getting an extended warranty with the store you purchase it from or the one from MS itself. I recommend it not because of the publicized problems, but because it's just the sensible thing to do with a $400 electronic device.

[shmokes]

Alright.  $10 it is.  Don't let me forget. 

[Tahnok]

They were safe to buy at launch. Granted, mine had to be replaced, but that's just the way consoles launch. I'd recommend either getting an extended warranty with the store you purchase it from or the one from MS itself. I recommend it not because of the publicized problems, but because it's just the sensible thing to do with a $400 electronic device.

That's the way pretty much every piece of technology launches. I bought an iPod Video shortly after it was released. Tons of people were complaining about it having problems, but I've not had anything happen with mine. The worst that can happen is you will get a bad unit and have to exchange it for another one. This can go on for three of four rounds before you get a good one (depending on what it is your buying, especially iPods).

[pointdablame]

Alright.  $10 it is.  Don't let me forget. 

I will have forgotten by the time I leave this thread     But it's still on! 

[Dizzle]

Methinks I'll be going the extended warranty route this time.

[TheOtherBob]

I got one last month....

While it's noisier (fans) than any console I've ever owned I haven't had any problems.  I'm not a huge gamer (my gamer score is 100 points!) but it's never locked up on me during CoD2 or Oblivion.

There IS a lot of heat coming out the backside of that machine.  I'd recommend an extended warranty personally....

[AtomSmasher]

Microsoft also recently annouced that the new version of windows will be able to support every peripheral that comes out for the 360 and it will be easier then ever for publishers to port their games over to Windows Vista, so virtually every xbox 360 game should come out for Windows Vista.  I wasn't planning on getting a 360, but they made my decision even easier for me.

[Luxury]

I would take up that sissy bet with you shmokes.  But why not make it more revelant?  Like say - the loser buys the winner a new Wii?  Have it pertain to the bet in some way, you know?

[shmokes]

Well, for one thing because the odds are stacked so heavily against me.  If it's a $10 sissy bet I don't mind not getting odds. 

Unfortunately, unless someone wants to give me odds -- I'd think at least 5-1 -- it's not an open invitation.  My money is on the name change more because I want it than that I necessarily think it will happen.  I think it's got a good chance, but nothing like a certainty.  Nobody bets on the long shot for even odds (except as a sissy little friendly wager).

[Luxury]

Well, i think that there is no way in hell that they will change the name.  They have already changed it once, and the chances of it changing again are in my books pretty much zero.  consumers won't follow it, and will get even more confused.  and a confused consumer doesnt buy your product.  I don't necessarily like the name either, but then its only a name and doesnt matter one bit in the grand scheme of the console.  They have to stick to their guns now, for better or worse.

[shmokes]

Well, they haven't really changed the name, per se.  Products like this always have an internal code name so they have something to call it while it's in development, before the marketing people have decided on a name.  Wii is the first consumer name it's had.

If I remember right, which is very likely not the case, the Nintendo 64 was the Nintendo Ultra 64 up until weeks before launch.  This wasn't the change from the code name to the consumer name, e.g., Revolution --> Wii, Longhorn --> Vista, etc..  The code name for the Nintendo 64 was Dolphin. 

If you really think about it, nobody knows the name Wii yet.  Not really.  There hasn't been a single ad -- print, tv, online, nothing.  The only people who know about the Wii are hardcore gamers, and a name change would not confuse ANY of them.  It would merely make them happy.  The vast majority of the world has never heard about it.  A name change wouldn't cause them any more trouble than the time and money already spent on the name "Wii".  But anyone who's studied even basic economics knows the danger of sticking with something solely on the strength of sunk costs.

[AtomSmasher]

I just thought I'd mention you can get an xbox 360 for $350 shipped from dell.  $400 - automatic 10% off - $10 off code C99$273GQ1L4W8 [Exp 7/15] = $350 shipped

[pointdablame]

There have already been a good amount of ads in the Japanese market for the Wii name, and Nintendo's own homepage has the Wii name all over it.  Not to mention the fact that every media outlet has obviously changed to using Wii instead of Revolution.

Believe me, people know the name Wii already.... even "normal" consumers know the name.

[Dizzle]

I just thought I'd mention you can get an xbox 360 for $350 shipped from dell.  $400 - automatic 10% off - $10 off code C99$273GQ1L4W8 [Exp 7/15] = $350 shipped

May have to check them out...

And you've got me intrigued about the possibility of 360 games being ported over to Vista.  I may have to think about that a little more.  My only concern is what kind of specs it will take to run Vista at exceptional levels.  If it means building another $1,000 rig, I'll pass.

[AtomSmasher]

And you've got me intrigued about the possibility of 360 games being ported over to Vista.  I may have to think about that a little more.  My only concern is what kind of specs it will take to run Vista at exceptional levels.  If it means building another $1,000 rig, I'll pass.

Hehe, true, if you don't have a top of the line pc, then you'll have to spend a lot more then $350 to run 360 games on Vista, plus it will be another 6+ months before vista even comes out and who knows how long after that before most 360 game releases get ported to the PC.

[shmokes]

There have already been a good amount of ads in the Japanese market for the Wii name, and Nintendo's own homepage has the Wii name all over it.  Not to mention the fact that every media outlet has obviously changed to using Wii instead of Revolution.

Believe me, people know the name Wii already.... even "normal" consumers know the name.

"Normal" consumers don't go to Nintendo's homepage.  Nor do they go to IGN or Gamespot.  Those are hardcore gamers.  I have a lot of friends who play videogames and none of them have heard of the Wii until I tell them (and, come to think of it, I always refer to it as Nintendo's new system). 

As for ads in the Japanese market, I can't say anything about that.  I don't know how you actually know that, but I'll just assume you have firends/family in Japan or something.  Maybe that will be enough for them to keep Wii name.  Maybe they'll only change the name in other markets, a la Famicom/Super Famicom in Japan, NES/SNES everywhere else.

I'm not saying they WILL change the name.  I'm saying they should change the name, are considering or have considered it since revealing Wii, and have not passed some point of no return where a name change is impossible or would even do them significant harm (exactly the opposite in my opinion).

The full extent of the effect of a name change on people who already knew it as Wii would be, "Hey, that was going to be called Wii.  God, that was a good move."  The idea that there would be some kind of mass confusion is crazy.  Anybody who knows anything about the Wii would recognize it anywhere regardless of what it is called.  Not only that, but the only people who know anything about the Wii at this point are the people who visit Nintendo's home page and IGN and Gamespot and they would actually learn about the name change before ads ever started showing up in the first place.  Again, I'll point to the last-minute name change from Ultra 64 to Nintendo 64.  That change affected you so little that you completely forgot about it or never knew about it.  The VAST majority of the world simply never knew about it.

[somunny]

Hmmm...  This is like two... two... two threads in one!

[Tahnok]

I thought you were completely off with this one, shmokes, until I looked up the codenames for the N64. I had heard of the Ultra 64, but I didn't realize there was another name before that one (from Wikipedia - Nintendo):

Nintendo used the code names Project Reality and Ultra 64 prior to the system's actual release, and these names are still used by some people. Ultra 64 was also the planned final name for a short time, but was changed to Nintendo 64 because of trademark conflicts with the software publisher "Ultra Games."

That proves that it wouldn't be entirely unheard of for Nintendo to have three different names for a console. That said, I don't think the name is going to be changed.

Also, the Dolphin was the gamecube.

[shmokes]

Hah!  That rings a bell.  Funny that I would remember the relatively obscure Ultra 64 moniker and not Project Reality which was used for a much longer period of time. 

[AllisterFiend]

Not sure how reliable this site is, but they talk about XBox 360 not having price cuts this year.

http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/11237/Xbox-360-No-Plans-for-a-Price-Drop-This-Fall/

I don't believe they will cut prices this year either.

Allister Fiend

[SOAPboy]

I just thought I'd mention you can get an xbox 360 for $350 shipped from dell.  $400 - automatic 10% off - $10 off code C99$273GQ1L4W8 [Exp 7/15] = $350 shipped

May have to check them out...

And you've got me intrigued about the possibility of 360 games being ported over to Vista.  I may have to think about that a little more.  My only concern is what kind of specs it will take to run Vista at exceptional levels.  If it means building another $1,000 rig, I'll pass.

atm i wouldnt run vista on anything less than 1gig of ram, a mid range 256 meg video card, and at LEAST a 2 gig processor..

by the time it drops, hardware to run it will drop too. i wouldnt stress to much on it.

[Otraotaku]

You've held off this long, I'd wait to see if they cut prices for the holiday personally. 

Or, maybe Sony will even be forced to cut the price down to your $399 threshold and the PS3 will end up being a big hit.  This is looking less and less likely, but who knows?

Better yet, save half your money by buying a Wii (hopefully the name will change) and put all that extra money into modding an Xbox.  The graphics aren't as good, but at this point I'd take a modded Xbox over an Xbox 360 any day of the week.  A modded Xbox with 100 or so Xbox games should make it a lot eaiser to wait for the current exhorbitant prices of the next gen systems (Wii not included) to come down.

shmokes is right, they should atleast start cutting prices before november.

[Otraotaku]

I'd make a friendly $10 bet with someone.

you're on buddy.  If Nintendo changes the name of their new console to anything other than Wii by the time it releases in the US, I'll paypal you $10 or send you a joystick or something.

I'm making a really safe bet here. 

lmao

[SirPoonga]

I'm a little late to reply with this but for others that will read this thread.

I have had my 360 since january (my 360's born date is Dec 15th).  I have not had problems minus the usual bugs in games, but not with hardware.  Keep the power supply away from the console, keep it cool.  I have had my 360 freeze up on me but that was when the power supply and console were right next to each other.  Don't think the PS3 isn't going to have the same issues (from reports it looks like it will have the same shortage and hardware issues as the 360, especially since it is ontroducing blu-ray).

The problems that got so hyped early on only happened to like 1-4% of the 360s. 

Microsoft has said they are not going to drop the price.  They don't have a need to as the PS3 is so expensive.  If the PS3 was releasing at a comparable price I think they would consider it since they want to hit Sony hard this time around.  Why would Microsoft cut prices?  Is it because the first xbox dropped price within 6 months of launch?  PS2 dropped price 2 years after it's launch.  More likely microsoft will drop the core system in the next year.

schmokes, hardcore gamers go everywhere.  IGN and gamespot reviews generally suck and you need more than their opinion to get an idea of a game

There is going to be a new CPU for the 360, but it shouldn't concern you.  It will run cooler but probably not much to make it worht it.  It's going to be a cheaper CPU for microsoft to buy.

I'm not anti-playstation (guitar hero is awesome) but I think this time around Sony is shooting themselves in the foot.

[shmokes]

Heh . . . I know.  I just mean that people who don't visit videogame websites won't be confused because 99% of them have never heard the name Wii.  People who do visit those websites won't be confused because they'll learn about the name change ahead of time because they visit those sites.  So it's not like they're familiar with the Wii name today and then one day, out of the blue, they'll see a commercial on TV advertising something that looks and plays just like the Wii and is made by Nintendo but has a different name.  That would be confusing, but it won't happen cos they'd learn about the new name ahead of time in exactly the same way they learned about the name Wii.  Cos they're hardcore.  Doesn't matter which site they read, whether it's IGN or Kotaku.  If Nintendo changed the name it would be front-page news on every gamer website out there, even dedicated Sony/Microsoft sites.

And, don't get me wrong.  I think that the name probably will not change.  I just still think that it might and I think that Nintendo would have nothing much to lose.

[DYNAGOD]

ive had my 360 since launch..
sadly theres really nothing compelling for me to play on it..
theres just a signifigant lack of software..
and of what titles their are, they are just your typical 1st gen, or even worse simply xbox ported games.
the only use my 360 gets is my girlfriend using it to watch her exercise videos in the morning..
its has almost no gaming time on it..i play some gotham racing, but that gets old quick..
the system desperately needs an infusion of next gen titles that arent just rehashes, sequels or simply uninspiring..

[SirPoonga]

This is where I disagree.  What you mean to say is there isn't any next gen titles in genres you like.  I will agree with that as the system needs more genres.  There's alot of racing and tactile shooters.

I love Burnout, GRAW, and MLB.  But then I am into those types of games.  I hear Obvlivion is awesome but I am not an RPG person.  And the unfortunately thing is all systems are going through a game drought right now (except the DS).  Summer is generally a bad time for games.

Luckily in the next two months a whole bunch of regular and arcade games are coming out.  I am thinking about getting NCAA 07 tonight.  Definately looking forward to GoW and Dead Rising.

Part of it is you might have to get in with the right group of people.  I wouldn't have played GRAW as much as I have if I didn't have the group of people I play with.

Also if you don't have live gold then I can see why game might be considered not that good.  I wish there were better single player games but microsoft is pushing live pretty hard and that is the best part about many games.


Shmokes, you sort of have a point.  What did people hear before the Wii?  if you knew it by the revolution then you were reading reviews.  There were no ads when the project name was revolution.  Just like there were no ads for the dolphin   Yeah, if they changed the name now it could be confusing, but since they haven't advertised with any other name...  That is why they will not change the name now.  They committed to it and spent advertising dollars on it.

[Dizzle]

Yet another consideration...

Can't remember where I saw it, but I peeped a picture of an XBOX 360 with an HDMI out port.  I don't have HDMI, but I do have DVI on my HDTV so it might be worth waiting since they have HDMI to DVI cables. 

[SirPoonga]

Dizzle, that's a rumor and tht picisn;t verified.  it could be a hoax.

[Dizzle]

Dizzle, that's a rumor and tht picisn;t verified.  it could be a hoax.

Thanks SirPoonga   

Decided it wasn't worth it anyway.. the difference between component and DVI on my TV is not detectable.

[Vigo]

Hey, Is this just a rumor, or did anyone hear this? I heard that microsoft has a marketing strategy to promote the nintendo Wii, basically pointing out that the Wii isn't such direct competition since it is so varied. They are basically saying that the 360 should be able to play most the titles that the ps3 will play and be half the cost, so any avid gamer would be smart to buy a 360 and a Wii rather than a ps3, because it would be a cheaper and a more diverse gaming experiance.

[SirPoonga]

Vigo, no.  There was a spoof going around called the Wii360 which was meant to show that you could get a Wii and 3600 for the price of a PS3.

[Dizzle]

Actually, during E3 I also remember another Microsoft exec (can't remember which one) stating that the public should by a 360 and a Wii and pass on the PS3. 

Might actually be what I do.

[SirPoonga]

Peter Moore said that in jest as his response to the ps3 pricing.

[hypernova]

Peter Moore said that in jest as his response to the ps3 pricing.

There's always some truth in every joke.  You can't deny that Microsoft would LOVE for this to happen.

[shmokes]

It wasn't said in jest and the sentiment has been echoed by other MS execs.  It was said because MS sees Sony as a greater threat to their target market than Nintendo and they are intelligent enough to point out the math to people to illustrate just how crazy expensive the PS3 is.  MS reallizes that they are better off sharing videogame real estate in the home with Nintendo than to lose it completely to Sony.  And it's a compelling argument that's bound to win over at least a few Sony die hards.

[tetsu96]

Peter Moore said that in jest as his response to the ps3 pricing.

Yet that's amusing, because a Premium 360 + the HD-DVD at projected MSRP is just as much as a PS3.

But who really knows or cares how things are gonna turn out in the long run, as long as you can enjoy the ride there.

[Tahnok]

It's funny because Microsoft keeps bringing up the idea that you can buy their console and Nintendo's, while Nintendo seems to not take kindly to Microsoft's console:

Q: Microsoft has made the comment that people can buy an Xbox 360 and Wii for about the same price as a PlayStation 3. Would you mind terribly if that happened?

A: I'd much rather have the consumer buy a Wii, some accessories, and a ton of games, vs. buying any of my competitor's products.

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/gaming/2006-08-14-nintendo-qa_x.htm?POE=TECISVA

I think Microsoft is showing just how afraid they are of Sony.

[SirPoonga]

I don't want to start a flame war but that's where this will be heading... How does that show Microsoft is afraid.  OH NOES!!!!11 We are afraid that for the price of a PS3 you can buy a 360 and Wii.  RUUUUUUN!

[Tahnok]

Because they are siding with a competitor to beat another competitor. I think it shows that Microsoft is confident that Nintendo is not a real threat to them. But I also think it shows that they consider Sony to be a real problem. There is something very wrong when a company tells you to buy their product and another company

[Howard_Casto]

I think the real thing is that sony is already doomed.  It doesn't matter if the ps3 eats thunder and craps lightning, the damage that is all the bad press is already done.  600 bucks is insaine.... everybody jumped on the ps3 bashing band wagon, because of it. 
(allow me to jump topic for a sec)

Just for the record it is NOT relative to the price of a high end 360 with all the bells and whistles, because, well you get all the bells and whistles for that price.  600 bucks is the price of a bare-bones ps3 with nothing.  And kids, if you think the ps3 blue ray is worth the money or are considering buying a hd-dvd player for the 360 then I've got some swamp land to sell you.  If you want a media player go buy one, but the format for games will be dvds for some time to come. 

Sony's past success hasn't been base on them being innovative or actually putting out a superior product, it was due to them being lucky both with timing, and the mistakes of their competition (namely nintendo holding on to carts for the n64.)  There is nothing wrong with that.  The problem is that after all this success they thought it actually had something to do with the product they sell and got cocky.  They think that there are enough sony loyals out there to buy a product even if the price point is too high. 

M$'s evil scheme is still going according to plan. Expect them to take sony's spot and for the playstation 3 to be the last sony console.  This is a good thing.  Sony has been in the business for over 15 years, and what do we have to show for it?  The eye-toy?  M$ has only been in the console game for around 5 and they have already given us LIVE, the live arcade and the concept of a console with a harddrive.  They are about to change the face of gaming again with the new low-end developers kit for guys like me, allowing me to produce xb arcade games for a few hundered bucks instead of several thousand. 

My point is don't weep for sony, they never did anything for you.  M$ on the other hand is an actual gaming company, with m$ having produced games on the pc since the windows 3.11 days.  Sony is a television company who got into the industry because nintendo ticked off their ceo and he wanted even. 



In closing the reason m$ is being nice to nintendo, is because unlike sony they aren't total jerks and don't hate nintendo.  It also shows how secure m$ is in their position.  You would't see them doing stuff like that last go around becuase they were struggling, now they aren't. Personally, considering how great the wii is shaping up, the reaction sony gave is one of an afraid company.  I mean the wii is gonna be great, everyone universally agrees that the wii is great.  Everyone except sony that is.  Perhaps they are afraid to promote it like m$ did because they already know that their product isn't going to sell as well as they hoped?

[Nannuu]

Heck yeah it's safe to buy one.  I love mine.  I even accidentally left it on all night in a closed wood box (my entertainment center) and it still works fine.  I've been extremely happy with it.

Not sure I agree with Howard though.  The Playstation has a ridiculous fanbase and Sony has what is likely some of the best marketing around (only beat by the equally expensive and less functional iPod by Apple).  I think they'll do just fine.  They also do put out some first rate first party titles.  This is the first system from a major manufacturer I won't be able to buy but that is because of kids that I now own instead .  I do find it funny that Sony will have free online (Sony marketing...).  See how long that lasts.  Heck, MS is free too for the silver package.

[shmokes]

Ah . . . Sony's going to be fine.  They have an enormous marketing challenge in front of them -- convincing people of the value proposition the PS3 presents as a home entertainment device rather than just a game console, but it can be done.  Apple did it with the iPod.  Sony's getting lots of bad press over the $600 price tag, but the combination of rabid fanboys and a helluva marketing campaign (which we know that if there's anything Sony can do right it's marketing) Sony will sell out everything they can produce before the end of the year and into the beginning of next year, just like the 360 did.  There will be a big price cut before the next holiday season and lots of amazing games (remember, development started for the PS3 long before anybody knew that it was going to have a retarded high price so there are some high-profile games coming).

Sony's not going to have the clear victory they had in the previous two generations this time around, but they're going to do well.  I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually catch up and pass Microsoft's market share, but that won't happen until at least 2008 and probably more like 2010 if at all. 

Frankly, I'm more excited about the PS3 than I am about the Xbox 360 (which makes the price tag all the more painful).  Part of it, admittedly, is that the PS2 is the only system I never bought from the last generation and there are games that I'd like to catch up on.  But part of it is the superior specs, with HDMI, Blu-Ray, up to 7 simultaneous controllers per system, much larger hard drive, and at least theoretically more horsepower.  Mostly it's just a gut feeling that the PS3 is a better system, which probably means I'm just a marketing tool.  Also, the case itself is nicer looking.  The Xbox 360 is ugly.  Both the Wii and the PS3 have much better design.

[brophog]

Shmokes,

Name me the last console that was markedly higher in price than it's competitors that did well. All of them failed, despite the fact they were all much better in performance ratio to their cheaper competitors than the PS3 is to the XBOX360.

Maybe.......one could argue our society is more technological than in the past in the role of entertainment. The average consumer is more likely now to spend money on top end TV's, cell phones, MP3 players.....etcetera than it did 10-15 years ago. So, I suppose one could argue that changes the dynamics some. However, the trend is very clear on gaming consoles that were higher priced and consequently, the console of nearly every generation that eventually "won" the war was the lowest priced/performance system.

[SirPoonga]

up to 7 simultaneous controllers per system

I've been wondering about this.  Is that 7 wireless controllers or 7 total?  If so i guess you won't be playing 8 player ps2 games?

[shmokes]

Shmokes,

Name me the last console that was markedly higher in price than it's competitors that did well. All of them failed, despite the fact they were all much better in performance ratio to their cheaper competitors than the PS3 is to the XBOX360.

Maybe.......one could argue our society is more technological than in the past in the role of entertainment. The average consumer is more likely now to spend money on top end TV's, cell phones, MP3 players.....etcetera than it did 10-15 years ago. So, I suppose one could argue that changes the dynamics some. However, the trend is very clear on gaming consoles that were higher priced and consequently, the console of nearly every generation that eventually "won" the war was the lowest priced/performance system.

So how, exactly, did the Gamecube fail to unseat the PS2, in spite of being significantly lower-priced as well as being technologically superior?

It's just not as cut and dry as you suggest, as indicated by the last generation.  The only time we've ever had exhorbitantly high-priced consoles in the past were newcomers to the market like Panasonic with the CD-i, or 3D0 or SNK with the Neo Geo.  These weren't household names.  The launches of these consoles for one thing weren't backed by a $100 million marketing campaign (no idea what Sony's budget is, but it's at least that much).  They also did not have fans lining up and spending nights on sidewalks to get ahold of them (PS3 will) on launch day.  They also weren't coming from a company that has been the home of THE preeminent console over the last two generations (11 years).  Buzz is important and it will sell plenty of consoles early on based on buzz alone, just as Sony has shipped over 20 million PSPs world wide in spite of being much more expensive than its competitor  (to put that in perspective that's right about the same number of Gamecubes sold so far, if I'm not mistaken). 

Sony doesn't have to sell 100 million units to be successful.  They only have to sell enough units to hit critical mass.  They will sell EVERY unit they can produce this holiday season, whether they sell them for $600 or $100.  Obviously they're going to need to lower the price to appeal to more casual gamers / non-Sony-fanboys, but that will happen when demand for the unit starts dropping and supply starts picking up.  Sony's not going to just bow out of the console race when the Playstation brings more revenue and profit than every other division of Sony combined.

All I'm saying is that Sony is not going to dissintegrate.  Not only that but they will be successful.  Not only that, but there's a real possibility that they will be the market leader by the end of this console cycle.  Think about it.  What if Blu-ray wins, and Chrismas 2007 rolls around and the PS3 is a much more reasonable $400?  Sony's doing all right cos you couldn't find a PS3 on a store shelf for the first half of 2007 anyway due to demand outstripping their production capacity.  Now there's word of mouth cos you've got a few million people playing a few incredible games.  People have been subjected to a year of heavy marketing, playing up all the ways that the console is superior and will change your life and is actually inexpensive because of it's ability to play Blu-ray movies (I know that's a debateable claim, but you know they will make it and you know that it won't fall entirely on deaf ears).  You have the nostalgia factor, where people owned and loved the PS1 and PS2 and something in them just wants to own and love the PS3 because the Playstation brand has become a part of their tradition and routine.

If people percieve the value of the PS3 to be higher than the other systems it won't matter that the other systems cost less, just as Nintendo could slash the price of the Gamecube all they wanted, but they couldn't dent the PS2 sales.  Sony may or may not outsell its competitors, but the PS3 will not be a failure.

[shmokes]

up to 7 simultaneous controllers per system

I've been wondering about this.  Is that 7 wireless controllers or 7 total?  If so i guess you won't be playing 8 player ps2 games?

I'm too lazy to look this up, but I seem to remember that 7 devices is the built-in limit to a single bluetooth controller.  If that's the case I'd think the limit is only for wireless.

[Nannuu]

I believe Sony had to come back and clarify the 7 player claim.  I think it is now 4 players and 3 "other" devices are allowed on the PS3.  Please look that up, I could be wrong there.

Another example of a higher priced system winning is the PS2 vs Dreamcast.  At the launch of the PS2, the Dreamcast games looked years better.  Even the initial launch titles for the DC (a year previous) looked so much nicer than PS2 launches.  But people held out for the PS2 anyway.  This was all marketing, there was never anything wrong with the DC.  I know three guys here at work that have been waiting for the PS3 to be their new entertainment center.  They are bent on the belief that it is all they need, and they don't even own a previous game system.  Somehow Sony has good marketing.  Though I think they lie no one seems to care.  I say this based on all of the demos they pump out previous to their system launches where the system will never ever be able to live up to these initial videos.  And their specs are always blown out of proportion and then downgraded before the actual release of the system.  But people always seem to believe what they first heard about it and that's what they buy.

I'm not a fanboy of any system.  I really wish I could buy the PS3 at launch.  There are sure to be some really great games for it.  But just because I can't buy it, doesn't mean that everyone else can't/won't.

[SirPoonga]

There are sure to be some really great games for it.

This is the thing I am in doubt on.  Unless you absolutely must have sony only game like gran turismo or tekken it won't make a difference.  I saw the list of game in development for the PS3, only a few were PS3 only and they were the ones you'd expect like Gran Turismo, MSG4, anf Tekken.

Funny story, a friend of mine has bought Sony consoles for the sole purpose of playing Gran Turismo.  He played Forza on my 360 and thought it was better.  Another friend just got a 360 because he knows he isn't going to afford a PS3.  Yet another friend said for $600 he's just going to upgrade his computer instead.

This is the problem with the PS3, the price doesn't justify it.  Ok, if you are going to get a Bluray player it will be one of the cheapest.  However, you know it's going to suck.  Name a console that has a good DVD playback?  The PS2 needed a firmware update early on because it couldn't read some DVDs.  The 360's DVD playback is not that good.  And now the PS3 will have an early Bluray drive which will not be that good as first generation drives usually aren't.

I'm not a fanboy of any system, I go where the games are.  I still use my PC because certain genres are better like RTS an FPS.  I'm just being realistic and looking through the hype and what has happened in the past.
Then looking at the specs between the 360 and PS3, I think the PS3 is only going to be a little bit better performance.  It may have a bigger graphics processor but it has less system memory.

I plan on getting a PS2 when the PS3 comes out, should be able to get one for pretty cheap as people replaced it with the PS3.  I was going to get it for Guitar Hero but then a couple weeks ago Activision said Guitar Hero is coming to xbox, so Katamari and God of War might be the only games I have for awhile

But, as you said, it is about marketting.  That's one thing Sony does very well.  Look at the PS3, they've been copying ideas from the other system lately.  I'm not saying the other systems aren't copying ideas, the new 360 camera, someone say EyeToy.  But recently Sony said the PS3 is going to have "Entitlements" which sounds jus tlike the current Achievements on the 360.  Sony's premium model is going to have chrome accents around the cd dive, just like someone else's premium system.
The reason they are doing this is so when it comes out they can say they have the same stuff and more.  Again, good marketting if it works.

I think the number one complaint about the 360 is how "loud" it is.  Though it is no louder than the Dreamcast's CD drive churning away.  It;s just the cooling fans making the noise and once gameplay starts and there is 5.1 surround going on you don't notice it.  I wonder how Sony is going to combat the massive amount of heat their processors are going to put out.

I'm thinking all the reason sony fanboys made fun of the 360 last year (loud, not in stock, etc...) will happen with the PS3 too.

Now, I am also looking forward to the Wii.  it sounds cool.  However there are problems with that too.  i have a feeling there are going to be games that over use the motion sensing.  Remember when Cel shading was a big thing and it became overused.  I think there will be games that put the motion sensing in for the sake of putting it in even though it doesn't make sense.  Of course, as usual, the first party software will probably be rock solid.  New Super Mario Bros for the DS is awesome, just completed the game last week.

[shmokes]

FWIW here's a video showing the final PS3 dev kits that developers have just received.  According to game jounalists who have seen them they run both cool and quiet.

[SirPoonga]

That doesn't mean anything, it's a development kit.  Look at it, it is huge.  Plenty of room for cooling and larger quieter fans.

[shmokes]

Hence the "FWIW".  Nevertheless it's a far cry from the previous dev kits.

[SirPoonga]

Heh, that is true.

I've noticed notice two things with the PS3 vs 360.  Actually 3, Halo fanboys are waiting for Halo 3 to get the 360, WTF!  They are missing out on some good gaming

Otherwise you have the PS3 loyalists that will buy the PS3 no matter what, then you have people who are getting the PS3 because they know know Sony did good last generation so they will do good now.  Out of all the reasons I have heard from people getting the PS3 not one was because they thought the PS3 would have better games (unless it was a sony fanboy hyping MSG4).  Talk about marketting success.

That's where the Wii is different, people are getting that because they know the games will be good, not because of it's specs.  I think time around Nintendo is going to do better.  They still will probably not beat microsoft or sony but I don't think the Wii will be as bad as the gamecube.

The other thing is networked games.  Ok, the PS3 will have free networking.  The question is will the experience be as good as the Live system?  There are pros and cons for both.  The pros for the PS3 networking is it is free to the user.  But then again so was the PS2's networking.  That's all the PS3's networking is but add gamespy on top of that.  If you have used the gamespy network on a  pc it sucks.  I hate games that are gamespy only.  The other pro is you can have MMORPGs where the developer sets the price of online play.  The cons are what makes the Live system better.  All networked games use the same post which makes dealing with firewalls easy, just open 3074 tcp and udp.  There's alot of things I think you will be able to do on the PS3 that have always been available on Live, the question is how good is it going to be since Liv ehas had a 4 year head start.

Let me put it this way, one of my friends that just got a 360 the first hing he siad to me when we hooked up for a multiplayer games was "wow".  It is a very slick system, better than anything currently on the PC.  Xfire and Steam are close.  One thing you can do with Live (and you should be able to do ont he PS3) is have voice communications seperate from game audio.  The voice goes to a headset.  Unless you have a game designed for it along with two sound cards in your PC you can't do that.  This is more of an argument on why to console game over PC, communications is better.  It's pretty cool to be able to talk to a friend when you both are in different games.

Backwards compatibility isn't a huge issue with me, though I can see how it is an issue with many people.  Since I got my 360 I have bought three back compat games that I found used or in a bargain bin.  I have Forza, Redcard2003, and Star Wars Battlefront 2.  Forza I had to get, I love racing sims and I knew Forza 2 was not going to be around for some time.  I just got Battlefront 2 because it became a Platinum hit and is now under $20.  So, I understand why one would want backwards compatiblity.  However, if you already had the previous system what is the big deal?   Unless you sold it to make up some of the cost.  Though I see PS2 is going for $50 used on ebay.

Ther eis something else the 360 has that people don;t talk about that much.  It is a MCE Media Extender.  I've been playing with Vista Beta which has MCE in it.  Being able to controle MCE from the 360 is awesome.  I plan on using that feature.  I am going to upgrade my computer when Vista comes out.  The left overs will be used to upgrade my arcade cabinet.  I will throw a TV tuner in there and install MCE.  The cool thing is while someone is playing a game (I play mostly classics so CPU power isn't an issue) I can control the MCE software on it from the 360.  I don't know why microsoft would not show that off some more, expecially with vista coming out.  It is an awesome feature.

The other thing I am excited about is there will be cross platforms games between games running on vista and the 360.  Huxley and Shadowrun look pretty cool.  I was talking to some people who went to E3 and tried it out, they loved playing console vs pc.  This is what I don't get, why doesn't a big company like EA tell the consoles that they are going to make their games cross platform.  At least EA sports.  The sports games are generally the same across platform, netcode would at least be the same even if the graphics are different.  Those games aren't exclusive to any console so they aren't a big selling point.  EA uses their own servers anyway and not the live system since they keep track of alot of stats.  Maybe they are planning it.  Frankly, I could care less if you have a 360 or PS3, as long as we could play Madden or Tiger Woods together.  The only problem I see with that is voice communications, on the 360 it is handled by live, not the game.

I think Sony will still win this generation but it is going to be a bit tougher for them.

[BenderTheGreat]

Dude, the only reason to get a PS3 right now is the faint possibility of Kingdom Hearts 3. Seriously. Wii has better games and is the ORIGINAL motion sensitive system. Nintendo INNOVATES, it doesn't just use what the competition uses.
KH was pretty much my reason for a PS2. It may end up as my reason for a PS3, but not now, not while it's just a faint possibility.

[SirPoonga]

Seriously. Wii has better games and is the ORIGINAL motion sensitive system.

Hate to burst your bubble but it isn't  a new concept, even in the gaming world.  PCs have had motion sensing mice and gamepads for many years.