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New Product: Ultimarc UltraStik 360 Analog/Digital Mappable Joystick
Tiger-Heli:
Great points, Urebel !!!
--- Quote from: u_rebelscum on June 14, 2006, 03:39:54 am ---The problem is mame is not well written to translate analog to digital*. Mame looks at each axis separately; the value of the other axis is not looked at during the analog 2 digital translation. This makes Mame's look more like the following:
Depending on "a2d_deadzone" and other settings, it could look more like the first or the second (I left in the right's lines for closer comparison), or imagine a larger deadzone instead of the shown smaller.
--- End quote ---
So if I am looking at this chart correctly, MAME is using a (very crude) 8-way map for the A-D conversion, even in 4-way games, correct?
--- Quote ---While well written PC games don't need the analog to digital mapping in UltraStik360, mame needs it badly.
--- End quote ---
Okay, I did not realize this.
--- Quote ---
The mapping also "puts the controls in the users' hands" instead of having to use whatever the well (or poorly) written game mapping has.
--- End quote ---
Granted, and that can be useful.
--- Quote ---There are finer ways to remap than with a grid, but they aren't easy to do in practice, especially while being changeable & fast on joystick hardware.
--- End quote ---
Actually, my point was that there was no point downgrading to a 9x9 grid if MAME is already using the data from a 256x256 grid. Expecting a user to input 65536 entries into the map would be silly, so this is a good compromise.
--- Quote ---Mame could use an analog to digital go over (but needs to be neater than I code, and not conflict with analog to digital "button" convertions to be accepted).
--- End quote ---
So it would appear.
AndyWarne:
Some great discussion here!
I don't actually have a great deal to add apart from a few minor points:
Firstly, just to confirm that when maps are downloaded (via USB) they do have an effect on the 4 digital directions sent to an I-PAC if one is connected. This is where mapping really comes into it's own. Any map which contains all analog cells will appear to the I-PAC as all centered, hence nothing will be sent, but other squares will be sent as mapped.
Randy might well be correct in that in 8-way mode there is not a great deal of value in mapping when connected only via USB. But that is missing the point because the ability to change from 4 to 8 way is the essence. It may well be that many users never create any custom maps at all, just flip from the supplied 4-way to the supplied 8-way.
I have no plans to enable a mechanical switch for changing maps, as this is better done programmatically. It can already be done in Mamewah for example on a "per game" basis.
On the subject of restrictors I have a sneaking suspicion that I might make the circular restrictor a standard fitment. I am waiting feedback really, on whether the standard travel is too long for non-analog games. The problem of course is anything to do with joysticks is very subjective, which is why a design intention was to make it as configurable as possible.
I chose a cell-type map rather than angular for simplicity and less real-time processing being required on the stick itself (eg large look-up tables).
Interestingly, the number of cells in the matrix and also the spacing between cells are programatically adjustable, although the current software does not support this in the GUI. I might consider adding this support if there is interest.
Another point of interest: using a restrictor plate on the stick does not compromise the analog resolution. The internals of the stick use a resolution of 16384 X 16384 so reducing this to, say, half the travel and changing the scale factor (which is done by the mapping software) still maintains a huge resolution advantage over what Windows sees.
Andy
RandyT:
--- Quote from: AndyWarne on June 14, 2006, 11:13:20 am ---Randy might well be correct in that in 8-way mode there is not a great deal of value in mapping when connected only via USB. But that is missing the point because the ability to change from 4 to 8 way is the essence. It may well be that many users never create any custom maps at all, just flip from the supplied 4-way to the supplied 8-way.
--- End quote ---
If this is is what I was perceived to have stated, then I offer my apologies. I must not have made my point very well. It was more along the lines of "With an analog joystick that has an optimal 8-way configuration and range of actuation that so closely resembles that of a standard 8-way (which cannot benefit from digital restriction attempts, e.g. 8-way to 4-way), how is it that the addition of maps to the same physical mechanics can make a difference in that conversion? Especially if the gaming software already divides the 256x256 map properly.
Regardless, Urebel pointed out some rather interesting (and slightly disturbing) limitations to the MAME code which provides a partial answer to that question.
Based on what he has written, mapping must be provided with an analog stick in order to be properly used with MAME, as analog sticks are very poorly handled by MAMEs 8 and 4-way conversion code. So mapping will certainly correct for that particular issue. The question I still have is related to the rest of the point I had attempted to make, and that is; now that the translation is more along the lines of what is optimal (the analog maps I drew), how does that specifically make it a better 4-way than a switch based 8-way using a 4-way actuator (which provides an actuation map very similar to the optimal 4-way map, yet historically do not work very well?)
Ultimately, this is the aspect I am most interested in understanding and hearing about from the early adopters.
RandyT
Tiger-Heli:
--- Quote from: AndyWarne on June 14, 2006, 11:13:20 am ---Randy might well be correct in that in 8-way mode there is not a great deal of value in mapping when connected only via USB.
--- End quote ---
I believe that Randy's point was there with a standard PC game, there was not a great deal of value in mapping in either 8-way or 4-way mode when connected via USB. But that was before Robin clarified how MAME does (or rather doesn't) translate analog to digital.
--- Quote --- But that is missing the point because the ability to change from 4 to 8 way is the essence. It may well be that many users never create any custom maps at all, just flip from the supplied 4-way to the supplied 8-way.
--- End quote ---
Agreed.
--- Quote ---
I have no plans to enable a mechanical switch for changing maps, as this is better done programmatically. It can already be done in Mamewah for example on a "per game" basis.
--- End quote ---
Agreed, except for console games, not Windows OS, unless you are working on these solutions.
--- Quote ---On the subject of restrictors I have a sneaking suspicion that I might make the circular restrictor a standard fitment. I am waiting feedback really, on whether the standard travel is too long for non-analog games. The problem of course is anything to do with joysticks is very subjective, which is why a design intention was to make it as configurable as possible.
--- End quote ---
I would be interested to hear feedback on the throw and spring return rate of these.
--- Quote ---
I chose a cell-type map rather than angular for simplicity and less real-time processing being required on the stick itself (eg large look-up tables).
--- End quote ---
Makes sense.
--- Quote ---Interestingly, the number of cells in the matrix and also the spacing between cells are programatically adjustable, although the current software does not support this in the GUI. I might consider adding this support if there is interest.
--- End quote ---
I think Kremmit had a very good point that an oddxodd map works better for 8-way mappings and an evenxeven map would work better for 4-way mappings.
--- Quote ---Another point of interest: using a restrictor plate on the stick does not compromise the analog resolution. The internals of the stick use a resolution of 16384 X 16384 so reducing this to, say, half the travel and changing the scale factor (which is done by the mapping software) still maintains a huge resolution advantage over what Windows sees.
--- End quote ---
You could have left a 16384x16384 matrix in the GUI and then people could REALLY create their own custom maps!!! :cheers:
On a serious note, that implies it might well be possible to have a long throw version of the stick for analog games and a restricted throw version for digital games, which is excellent news also. :cheers:
mark shaker:
Andy:
16384 X 16384 Resolution?
What technology allows you to capture that resolution?
It doesn't sound like pots: They are so jumpy that a resolution that high would be meaning less.
It doesn't sound like optical: Going from a "traditional" 7X7 grid to 16384 X 16384 is beyond belief.
Is it a Hall-Effect stick?
- Mark
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