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Fixing MAME's handling of 12-position rotary controls

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RandyT:

--- Quote from: Dav on February 01, 2006, 05:26:39 pm ---Time soldiers could still be relative to the position at boot, so using mame proves nothing since it would look the same either way.

--- End quote ---

Maybe, but I doubt the programmers of the original would have done it that way.  All the data is right there at the interface.  Why track it just to have the character come up facing the same way when binding it to the control does the same thing without the work.  It's one of those things that doesn't make sense from a programming standpoint.


--- Quote ---My point about notching your controller is that it's not the interface that's different.  I'm not saying a rotary controller is the same as every spinner.  The fact that it operates the same as a hypothetical spinner proves that interfacing it as a spinner is valid.

--- End quote ---

Well, here's something to throw your point on it's proverbial "ear" :-)

MAME doesn't appear to work the way you say it does with the spinner.  I just verified incorrect operation with both Time Soldiers and Ikari.  The number of pulses required to make a turn is inconsistent on both games.  On Ikari, with the spinner sensitivity at 100%, sometimes it will miss a pulse.  Sometimes it will make 8 turns before a miss and sometime 9 turns.

In TS, it's even more bizarre.  Instead of one pulse per click at 100%, as one would rightfully expect, this game requires between 19 and 23, also apparently at random.

This should not be.  The optical interface is tracking perfectly (I'm doing the pulses manually) and can easily walk it across the entire screen in Windows without it missing a beat.  MAME seems to be the problem.

One would think that perhaps a sensitivity adjustment might help, but not so.  Increasing the sensitivity retains the missed move problem and just adds an the extra move problem.

So, the nagging question.  Why the huge discrepancy in the way these two games operate and why the missed movements? 

And an even bigger question:  Is this the reason why the Druin interface won't work properly?


--- Quote ---Yes, 24 inputs is crazy.  It's also not necessary.  By definition only 1 of 12 can be active so all the data is maintained by passing it through binary encoders like 74148's and getting it down to 8 lines.  Although if it were me I'd probably use a cpld.

--- End quote ---

But MAME doesn't support that either.... ;)

RandyT

Dav:

--- Quote from: RandyT on February 01, 2006, 07:08:13 pm ---
--- Quote from: Dav on February 01, 2006, 05:26:39 pm ---Time soldiers could still be relative to the position at boot, so using mame proves nothing since it would look the same either way.

--- End quote ---

Maybe, but I doubt the programmers of the original would have done it that way.  All the data is right there at the interface.  Why track it just to have the character come up facing the same way when binding it to the control does the same thing without the work.  It's one of those things that doesn't make sense from a programming standpoint.


--- Quote ---My point about notching your controller is that it's not the interface that's different.  I'm not saying a rotary controller is the same as every spinner.  The fact that it operates the same as a hypothetical spinner proves that interfacing it as a spinner is valid.

--- End quote ---

Well, here's something to throw your point on it's proverbial "ear" :-)

MAME doesn't appear to work the way you say it does with the spinner.  I just verified incorrect operation with both Time Soldiers and Ikari.  The number of pulses required to make a turn is inconsistent on both games.  On Ikari, with the spinner sensitivity at 100%, sometimes it will miss a pulse.  Sometimes it will make 8 turns before a miss and sometime 9 turns.

In TS, it's even more bizarre.  Instead of one pulse per click at 100%, as one would rightfully expect, this game requires between 19 and 23, also apparently at random.

This should not be.  The optical interface is tracking perfectly (I'm doing the pulses manually) and can easily walk it across the entire screen in Windows without it missing a beat.  MAME seems to be the problem.

One would think that perhaps a sensitivity adjustment might help, but not so.  Increasing the sensitivity retains the missed move problem and just adds an the extra move problem.

So, the nagging question.  Why the huge discrepancy in the way these two games operate and why the missed movements? 

And an even bigger question:  Is this the reason why the Druin interface won't work properly?


--- Quote ---Yes, 24 inputs is crazy.  It's also not necessary.  By definition only 1 of 12 can be active so all the data is maintained by passing it through binary encoders like 74148's and getting it down to 8 lines.  Although if it were me I'd probably use a cpld.

--- End quote ---

But MAME doesn't support that either.... ;)

RandyT


--- End quote ---

Trying to attribute logic to arcade programmers is futile.  I can think of a lot of examples where they did things the hard way for no apparent reason.  I've given up trying to guess what they were thinking.

You'd have to talk to someone like urebelscum that knows something about inputs to explain that one.  That does seem like a bug to me but I wouldn't know.

Yes, but at least with raw input you have the argument of accuracy on your side.  :)


 

RobotronNut:

--- Quote ---I just verified incorrect operation with both Time Soldiers and Ikari.

--- End quote ---

RandyT - try the same experiment with MameAnalog+ 0.83.2; it is claimed to handle Ikari perfectly.

RandyT:

--- Quote from: RobotronNut on February 01, 2006, 09:19:47 pm ---
--- Quote ---I just verified incorrect operation with both Time Soldiers and Ikari.

--- End quote ---

RandyT - try the same experiment with MameAnalog+ 0.83.2; it is claimed to handle Ikari perfectly.


--- End quote ---

With the spinner?

I was under the impression that Analog+ only made the change of adding new button inputs to do this, not modifications to the spinner portion.

Am I missing something?


RandyT

RobotronNut:

--- Quote from: RandyT on February 01, 2006, 09:38:40 pm ---
With the spinner?

I was under the impression that Analog+ only made the change of adding new button inputs to do this, not modifications to the spinner portion.

Am I missing something?


--- End quote ---

there's at least one more difference. mame 0.103 inserts invalid codes into the stream to work around the "joystick error protection in Guerilla War". it would seem that this would cause you to lose pulses, although i can't explain why this would once every 8 or 9 pulses.

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