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MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
Chris:
--- Quote from: Lilwolf on June 07, 2005, 07:45:09 am ---2nd, EBay IS A AUCTION HOUSE.
--- End quote ---
ChadTower:
--- Quote from: paigeoliver on June 07, 2005, 07:48:34 am ---The fact is that those suckers STILL can't make money on location, neither can Ultracades or Reunion Machines or 39 in 1s. There just isn't any interest anymore.
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I've seen some local Reunion cabs that charge .50 and have 10 minute wait periods at night. They do bring in money, but probably not enough to justify paying four grand for $400 in material.
KenToad:
--- Quote from: JB on June 06, 2005, 09:33:41 pm ---
--- Quote from: Tiger-Heli on June 06, 2005, 02:47:52 pm ---
--- Quote from: KenToad on June 06, 2005, 02:25:58 pm ---Nintendo sued and, if I remember correctly, it came out that Tengen had used reverse engineering and were forced to stop selling games.
--- End quote ---
I only vaguely remember the issue, but I think that's your answer. Tengen wasn't in trouble for reverse engineering, but for selling games based on the reverse engineering. MAME really isn't selling anything (although providing the same things free of charge would be the same thing, so MAME's not out of the soup).
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Actually, Tengen got in trouble because they DIDN'T reverse engineer the lockout chip.
They illegally obtained a copy of the patent by claiming they needed it for a lawsuit against Nintendo, then used the patent information to make their own version of the lockout chip.
So Nintendo sued them and won.
Reverse-engineering is legal, provided it's done properly.
Note, for example, the oft-cited Bleem! legality.
One of Sony's first lawsuits was in regards to the PS1 BIOS. Bleem! pointed out that their emulated BIOS was reverse-engineered, with no original Sony code in it. They won, as they would win all the cases filed against them until they went bankrupt.
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You're right, JB. I knew I was getting something confused, but couldn't quite figure out what. Thanks for the clarification.
So, I wonder if anyone could tell me what might happen today in a reverse engineering suit regarding the DMCA? Patentdoc?
--- Quote from: Chris on June 07, 2005, 08:21:32 am ---
If people weren't at risk of losing their eBay accounts and reputations over what Aaron is doing, this would be a simple academic discussion. But the MAMEDevs are mere mortals, just like us, and questioning the "shoot first and ask questions later" attitude isn't disrespect. I don't buy into the "if you're not with us you're against us" mentality.
--Chris
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Agreed. I think you can disagree with the Mamedev's current decision to beat DF/Ultracade at his own game and still support the Mame project.
As a side note, I wonder if anyone has ever seriously challenged ebay's right to both act like a shopping mall with vacant storefronts for vendors to occupy and sell things repeatedly and at the same time like the neighborhood garage sale with a few things getting sold by individuals at little to no profit as under the table income. Maybe both Ebay and the Mamedevs have these strict policies because they both know that they're a hair's width from getting shut down.
Anyway, that was just something I thought about during this argument/debate. I wouldn't be surprised if someone takes it personally, but I really hope not. That said, I believe that there are several different arguments occurring at once in this thread. Personally, my argument is like the teacher's, since I'm a substitute teacher as well as a journalist in my daily life. As a teacher, you can't set stricter rules for the bad kids than you can for the good kids. Many times, I come into a class and I have to crack down on everyone, although I would love to just get the good kids and let them go buzzing down the road of education. The best example of this is the fighting rule. I sometimes will stop some elementary school kids from wrestling on the playground. They say "We're friends." I'm sure I could let them go at it all day, no problem, but, since there are other kids around who would definitely get hurt or misinterpret the rules, I have to stop it all. Also, I have to set a good example and follow my own rules. Otherwise, I would get emulated. ;) So I think this applies to the Mamedevs in the sense that they must address the legalities in their own project before they call the teacher to tell on the other kids on the playground. I think it can be gathered from this thread that the Mamedev's have not earned the right to become the keepers of posterity by enabling software to imitate proprietary hardware they do not own. Similarly, once they figure out the legality, they must follow their own rules if they wish to be respected. Until those conditions are met, I support the Mamedevs for doing what they do best, not for being the bulldogs of Ebay, although that doesn't affect me in the least.
Again, if you think my reasoning is invalid, shoot it down with a reason. As always, I don't intend to infuriate anyone.
Cheers,
KenToad
Tiger-Heli:
What I think may be getting missed is the MAMEdev's are just programmers working on a project for free in their spare time.
If the project starts becoming commercialized (someone) may generate a lawsuit (whether they can win it or not) to shut the project down, most likely over copyright violation.
Pulling E-bay ads is a way to keep MAME from appearing commercialized, but someone (whether they can win it or not) is likely to generate a lawsuit, most likely under unfair trade restriction, in this case.
The question is, when MAMEdev's legal department says "We feel we can prevail in either of these lawsuits, but it may cost us $250,000 to fight it out in court, or we can cease and desist and take our ball and go home", what will the dev's do. What would you do in their place?
Chris:
--- Quote from: Tiger-Heli on June 07, 2005, 10:14:15 am ---If the project starts becoming commercialized (someone) may generate a lawsuit (whether they can win it or not) to shut the project down, most likely over copyright violation.
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I agree. But I don'r believe selling spare buttons or keyboard encoders are over-commercializing. Are you saying you think OSCAR, Ultimrc, and GroovyGameGear should shut down to avoid harming the MAME project? What about Shawnzilla's coming translucent buttons? Sure, they could be used on any machine, but they're being made for us...
--- Quote ---The question is, when MAMEdev's legal department says "We feel we can prevail in either of these lawsuits, but it may cost us $250,000 to fight it out in court, or we can cease and desist and take our ball and go home", what will the dev's do.
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