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49-way vs 4-way vs 8-way in MAME: Differences...
AndyWarne:
The problem I have with posting here is that any time I allude to one of Randy T's products he interprets it as an attack. I suppose I will have to live with that. It is not meant to be. I am genuinely interested in this subject and I think I am missing something.
The question is what is the definition of a 4-way stick versus an 8-way?
As I have always understood it, MAME is actually very clever at dealing with 8-way sticks in 4-way games. If you test this by using Pacman for example, using a keyboard to emulate the switches on a joystick, you will find the following moves work, as examples:
Press Right, move right.
As an 8-way stick does not have a restrictor, you might find that when you move up, you actually go Right-Up. So hold Right, and press Up. You actually move up, just as you intended.
Then you might want to move Right. Just releasing Up will cause a move Right.
Then move down, but accidentally go Right/Down. Pressing Down while holding Right causes you to move down, just as you intended.
In fact MAME is very clever in this respect. You can mis-press double "diagonals" and it will go exactly where you want. It can't handle pressing right and left at the same time, but this is not a possible move on a joystick.
The upshot of this, as far as I can see, is that 8-way sticks perform fine, with the limitation of not having a limit plate so the "feel" is not the same as a 4-way game, all of which have limit-plates on the joystick.
The question I have, therefore is this: A 49-way stick does not have a limit plate. Fair enough, maybe the "feel" is not a big issue for many people. But, if the 49-way is electronically forced to 4-way by mapping out the matrix to 4 areas, is this going to make any difference at all in MAME compared to mapping the matrix as 8 areas?
Furthermore, if any of the 49-way matrix is unmapped, ie there are dead areas, are these not going to adversely affect gameplay? Using an 8-way switch stick in 4-way games does not result in any dead zones at all.
There are people on here who play many more games than I do, and would probably be able to put me right on what I am missing.
I have a reason for asking this. It's a not-very-closely guarded secret that we are having an analog stick designed especially for us, which will be analog/4/8 way switchable. Do I need to add electronic division of the analog circle into 4 or 8 sectors? I don't think I do, but will do so if there is going to be a real benefit.
Anyone?
Andy W
paigeoliver:
Yes, there is a benefit, some games are a lot better than others at handling diagonals. Pac-Man is pretty darn good at it. Donkey Kong and Assault are terrible at it.
Pac-Man is probably the worst example game, the sheer way it works makes it highly likely to "guess right" when it comes to diagonals. Donkey Kong just STOPS on diagonals, and it isn't the only game like that.
4-way games without forward momentum built in are the ones that have the most problem with 8-ways. If your little Bomberman or Worrior is standing still at a crossroads and you press down-right, the game has no way to tell if it should be down or right. NONE. Pac-Man can usually guess correctly because Pac is always moving forward.
Tiger-Heli:
First off, as Paige said, Donkey Kong is a better test game than PacMan.
That said, I am using the Prodigy joysticks with MAME and they definitely play better in 4-way mode in 4-way games. (And I don't mean feel of the restrictor plate, I mean how many times the sprite goes in an unintended direction. And this is in PacMan, b/c I never was any good at DonkeyKong.)
--- Quote from: AndyWarne on April 13, 2005, 06:09:21 am ---But, if the 49-way is electronically forced to 4-way by mapping out the matrix to 4 areas, is this going to make any difference at all in MAME compared to mapping the matrix as 8 areas?
--- End quote ---
Obviously it does. I have never used the 49-way sticks, but read through the 13 page introduction thread, especially the test results by 1Up and (I think) Kremmit. Basically, they said the sticks sucked on 4-way games in raw49 or 8-way mode and played great in 4-way. If the mappings didn't have any effect, you would expect the gameplay to be just as good in any mode, would you not? But that's not what the tests show.
--- Quote ---Furthermore, if any of the 49-way matrix is unmapped, ie there are dead areas, are these not going to adversely affect gameplay? Using an 8-way switch stick in 4-way games does not result in any dead zones at all.
--- End quote ---
RandyT kept his maps a closely guarded secret, but I would guess that none of the areas are unmapped, thus no dead zones. (I haven't seen, nor do I particularly want to see, the maps).
--- Quote ---I have a reason for asking this. It's a not-very-closely guarded secret that we are having an analog stick designed especially for us, which will be analog/4/8 way switchable. Do I need to add electronic division of the analog circle into 4 or 8 sectors? I don't think I do, but will do so if there is going to be a real benefit.
--- End quote ---
I guess this indicates why RandyT wanted to keep the maps a closely guarded secret.
AndyWarne:
Good (and quick!) replies, thanks.
So in fact it's the ROM which is doing the sorting-out of 8-way not MAME itself nor the Allegro code in MAME.
Andy
JoyMonkey:
Until I played Donkey Kong with a real 4-way stick (actually a Suzo500 stick with restrictor set to 4-way), I thought the game was absolutely impossible and couldn't understand how people could even clear the first level. Mario stopping at the base of a ladder when you wanted him to climb up it was absolute torture! When 4-way emulation was introduced, it made the game a little easier, but still nothing like playing with a real 4-way stick.
My first Mame cab was before the days of 4-way emulation in Mame (I believe this was added in 0.37b14) and with 8-way sticks it made Pac-Man almost as tough as Donkey Kong (ie, Pac-Man wouldn't change direction if you were hitting a diagonal).
I see how the "4-way emulation" in Mame has improved the gameplay using an 8-way stick, and admitidly I haven't tried playing any 4-way games with an 8-way stick in a long time, but I'd imagine Donkey Kong is still pretty annoying with an 8-way. The 49-way sticks "4-way emulation" mode is difficult to imagine without actually having a stick to play with, but it conjures the same picture in my mind as Mame's 4-way emulation.
I'd like to see a side by side comparison of how Donkey Kong plays;
A) Using an 8-way stick.
B) Using a 4-way stick.
C) Using a 49-way set to 4-way mode.
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