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New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)

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SirPoonga:

--- Quote from: Flinkly on February 28, 2005, 02:33:58 am ---randy has come to us offering us a great new plug and play controller and all that I hear is how we don't need it.  i for one don't want to mess with analog+ or quite frankly, anymore than i have to. 

so stop riping on randy.  if you want to tell people they can do it differently, then that is ok.  but don't start bashing the product you haven't even used just because yo do things differently.

--- End quote ---

Dude, where did I say we didn't need this product?  Go ahead, try and quote me where I said it was a bad product.  I even mentioned it is a good thing.  All I said was there are times for software solutions and times for hardware solutions.  I did not attack the product.  In fact I am praising it.

I said the situation for using this product is exactly for people like you.  They don;t want to mess with the config.

The situation for software solution is for people who want more control over the "feel" of how the 40way interpets the grid.

Again, people, please read more carefully.  I even said don't put more into it than this just being info and a difference in when software is better than hardware and when hardware is better than software.


SirPoonga:
ok, I reread through what was said.  It basically went down like this

I mentioned there's a software solution also.
As I figured Randy replied that his solution is better.
I replied that it depends on your point of view and goal (one being possible saving on money)m that one way could be conceived as better than the other.
Randy replies with more technical jargon on why his is better but also accusing me of thread poisoining. 
The only time I "ripped" on Randy is to point out I am not thread poisoining, just pointing out all the options and that he misread what I said.
There's no where that I said a hardware solution is not a good choice.  I was defending that you can't rule out software in situations where the software solution is better.
if I was thread poisoining I would have said the opposite, that hardware is not the way to go.  That is not what I said.  All I said was there are times when software iis better than hardware and hardware is better than software.  I'm sorry if I have to keep repeating that statement but apparently no one is getting that point.

Long story short.  This is a great product.  I don't have anything against it.  I never said anything bad about it.  All I did was mention there are other possibllities too.

You have to agree.  in this situation there are times when software solution is better. like if you wanted to define how the 49way is going to react as a 4way or 8way.  But if you don't want to do all that configuring this is the perfect solution.  This is definately the second time I said that, possibly the third.

I'm sorry if you didn't understand anything I wrote.  Let it go, leave it at that.

Now, let's get back to talking about the product.
I'd still like answers to how the dead spots are being handle, the diagonal when in 4 way mode, etc...  That will tell you how this will "feel".

RandyT:

--- Quote from: Xiaou2 on February 28, 2005, 01:58:55 am --- As stated above... not completely explaining the functions lead to misunderstandings.

--- End quote ---

Unfortunately, there are always individuals whom,  the more you explain things to, the more they "think" they find wrong with something.  The only way to deal with them is to not talk to them at all, but you never realize that until after you've already spoken to them.


--- Quote ---
 So what you are saying... is that the system will not ignor diagnols... but really use a "half-circle/half-circle"  type of sensing for the 2way for instance - with a small deadzone.


--- End quote ---

Cut the box in half and draw a line down the center.  Everything on one side = A and everything on the other = B.  That's the simple one. 


--- Quote --- As for the new style of 49ways...  I have a low opinion of them.    They are essentailly limited analog joysticks.   And for that - one wouldnt even need an encoder.

--- End quote ---

It's all in the implementation. Perhaps you would have a higher opinion of them if you actually used one with appropriate support.  The 49-ways are only limited in the Analog sense.  When used "digitally" they can sense 40 more positions than an 8-way.  Sounds rather "non-limiting" to me.

And how does even a  "limited analog joystick" not require an encoder (assuming you meant an interface  of some sort)?


--- Quote ---  The older Sinistar / Arch Rival  joys used an  X  shaped band to make it harder to reach the edges of the stick.   Like a gas pedal -vs- a brake. 

--- End quote ---

Well, they went obsolete for a reason.  Perhaps it was because of this engineering oversight?


--- Quote --- The new joys make it hard to play sinistar... as you are able to move too fast - on accident.   The additional resistence of the older joys - make it easer to keep your speeds under much better control.   Staying slower while collecting the crystals.. yet able to dash off like a rocket with a hard push.

--- End quote ---

I'm guessing you never tried it with an 8-way.   The "Progressive" mode was  incorporated to address just those types of concerns.  But since you haven't tried it.....


--- Quote --- So, if you want an analog joystick that feels like a bat handle joystick.. and has less sensativity than an analog - then fine.   

--- End quote ---

*sigh*, sensitivity is not at issue, and the 49-way doesn't purport to be "analog" any more than a P360 does.  Just so this is clear to anyone reading this, "This will NOT replace an analog joystick for applications requiring such to operate properly"  I didn't think I alluded otherwise.


--- Quote --- But lets get real here.

--- End quote ---

(still waiting)   


--- Quote --- First off, I have built a sinistar stick from an analog joystick.  I have felt and
playtested the differences between the center mounted spring that was in it... and then the new rubber x mod that I added to it to make it function properly.

--- End quote ---

Well, to take similarly misplaced "purist" position, I present for your consideration that because you used a 3rd party or heaven forbid,  "home made"  rubber spider, then the control you possess is no more "authentic" than  the ones you are condemning.  It appears, sir, that your snobbery knows no bounds and that you clearly believe that as long as it is you who posses it , it can be nothing other than "right" and "just."

Ok, I was just having a bit of fun on that one.  Sorry....:)


--- Quote --- I also picked up the real sinistar stick for kicks.   Simular feel to the one I made.  However - mines a bit stiffer, which makes it even easier to control the ship.  This may also be due to the centering spider on the original being aged.

--- End quote ---

Either that, or yours is not authentic and should be discarded immediately.  Ok, a little more fun :)


--- Quote --- And, Im not 'pooing'  your product.  Rather, Im simply stating that its not a perfect solution to the serious classic game player. .. and that it would  be more benificial to the typical gamer to have a 2-in-1 encoder rather than all those features that really arnt that usefull for the masses.    It also promotes the use of incorrect controls for games, thus making the game look to be poor or too hard.

--- End quote ---

Ok, now I understand.  "Im not 'pooing'  your product." and  "It also promotes the use of incorrect controls for games, thus making the game look to be poor or too hard." aren't really as contradictory as my tired eyes would have me believe.  Thanks  for clearing that up for me..

The bottom line is this.  If you haven't tried it, all you have is speculation.  And based on some of the speculation, I'd say it was better left for those who were better at it (No-one not included here- - heh, bad grammar)

Buy one or wait for someone else to.  Then you can get the real story.  But if you are going to state that something sucks or has no merit or....without having any first hand knowledge, it can be viewed no other way than a biased attack.  How would you see it were it directed at something you worked hard on?

RandyT

Xiaou2:
"Unfortunately, there are always individuals whom,  the more you explain things to, the more they "think" they find wrong with something.  The only way to deal with them is to not talk to them at all, but you never realize that until after you've already spoken to them."

  I could take that as some sort of snide attack on my intelligence.   But Ill give you the benefit of the doubt.    However...  many here have a decent knowlege..  enough to build a cabnet even  ::)   :P

  "It's all in the implementation. Perhaps you would have a higher opinion of them if you actually used one with appropriate support.  The 49-ways are only limited in the Analog sense.  When used "digitally" they can sense 40 more positions than an 8-way.  Sounds rather "non-limiting" to me.


   How about the arcades for "implementation"?!.   NFL blitz uses them.

  These new optical 49 way joys are merely an analog joystick replacement that was made optical because pots are more prone to wear and failures.   This dosnt mean that an analog joystick isnt better... in fact,  they are as they have more steps of detection.   

  As for digitally controller use... sure,  maybe it can outperform a micro joy in detection.   But, mechanics are a whole other story.   Is the joy too sensative in 8way? or too slow in reactions.   Do you feel the corners... or is it rounded?   Not feeling them - esp in fighters... may be hard to pull off moves for instance... yet on some games,  you do not want corners... so you roll the stick along a smooth circle
(time pilot, gyrus, robotron..ect)    These are MECHANICAL differences.   While you can make a joy perform simular - those joys are not mechanically changable... thus some games just wont be that great with them.   

  And... IMOP,  this interface is all about sinistar right?   I mean... its the only game to really use it that is hugely popular.    IE:  You can play nfl blitz fine with an analog joypad.   But you cant play Sinistar with an analog anything...  not just because of encoders... but because of true mechanics.   

 To make a sinistar controller and use a new style optical 49 way... and you still will not fly as good as the Real controller.   Why?  Mechanics. 

 Some solutions are not solvable with encoders. 

"And how does even a  "limited analog joystick" not require an encoder (assuming you meant an interface  of some sort)?""

  I said.. that since those new controllers are a limited analog joystick... then why bother?  Why not just hack an analog joystick.. which basically comes with its own encoder.   
   
  "Well, they went obsolete for a reason.  Perhaps it was because of this engineering oversight?"

    There is a reason... but not what you think.   Not a good reason...

  Arcade "ENGINEERS"  in the 80's spent a ton of man hours to design the most PERFECT controllers for the said game that was being worked on.   This controller had to work reliable in harsh abuse situations,  and yet, control the character as close to flawless as possible.   No clumbsiness... or way that the player could fault the controls for his loss of life.   
 
  These guys may have made hundreads of prototypes for a single game.  These guys are professionals..  with degrees!    Tested these things out extensively.  Had others test them.  Retested them.  Fixed the issues...ect.   They are not all to be taken so lightly.   There are many many reasons why they chose a paticular shape for something... or a set amount of travel... or a  RUBBER SPIDER  vs  a Spring.

  The reason for optics in sinistar was again,  due to wear and expense.   However,  the use of a spider x was a genious move... and done specifically for many reasons.

  Take a typical analog pc joy out.   Slowly exert light pressure as you move it
from center to left.  What do you feel?   You feel initailly - right near the center...
a sort of resistence.  Its quite heavy feeling... but, once you just pass it... the thing moves very fast.   Basically, theres almost no resistence after that small zone.   

  This area - I believe is called the deadzone.  Its a small center area that is best to avoid sensing... as its too hard to control smoothly in that area.   Its like driving into a speedbump  then falling into a pothole - and trying not to spill a tall glass of water.

  With sinistar that area would have been a disaster to use when flying slow (near the center zone)..

  The typical analog joystick 'center spring'  works on leverage... however,  the x band (rubber spider) works quite different.   

  With the x band.. the center area is smooth as butter.  No bumps.  Nothing to interfere with your delicate control manuvers near the center.    In fact - nothing to interfere all the way through full motion.

  The other thing, is that the Xband makes it increasingly harder to push the shaft twords the edge.   This makes it easier to keep from sloppily sliding like ice between the center and the edge.   This almost creates the illusion of a higher resolution method of detection... but its all due to ingenious mechanics.

  The only problem with this stick... was that the spider eventually stressed out and broke.   This wasnt really that much of a problem, as I believe they lasted a Long time before that happened.    My guess is that the game itself was basically on the way out before the rubbers failed.

  Ok - lets flip Years later...

Many companies changed the way they built thier games.  One major thing they did.. was allow people like Happs, to design and build generic controls for them.   This helped to save money on designs and supply issues.

  However.. happs wasnt always a perfect solution.  If you look arround, you will see that there are like 3 different joystick designs that came before the Ultimates. 
Ultimates had issues too, and got Comps.  Later, supers appeared.    Theres many reason they dumped leafs... but again, not always good ones.
 
 Happs were more concered with durrability than with looks or comfort.  Maybe this also helped to keep development costs down. 

  Look at happs 2way shifters for example...
  - Ugly
  - Horrible Bat feels uncomfortable (instead of sweet balltop)
  - Shaft is too Fat.   Uncomfortable in-between fingers.

  Of course, I may be wrong in that Happs were givin these new designs by the companies thenselves... of course by then, these companies had completely changed.   

  Long gone were the days of proto controllers and original games.  Everything took on a "me too"  attitude.   Low cost - high profits.  Easy difficulty... add coins in order to win instead of skill...   

  The new style 49 ways are a part of that.   They were made in order to be more reliable.   That dosnt mean better.   

 They also have that dreaded center spring speedbump.  However... in blitz it hardly mattered.  Its not really an accuracy game like sinistar.  They are Ok for non accurate analog games.   

 For  Sinistar... they stink.

"I'm guessing you never tried it with an 8-way.   The "Progressive" mode was  incorporated to address just those types of concerns.  But since you haven't tried it....."

   Progrgessive mode?   Well,  you have 6 registers  of speed in one direction... but,  that still dosnt change the mechanics.   If I slip from ranges 2 to 6 accidentally cause its sloppy... ill be litterally out of control.    Same goes for a standard analog control. 

  Even if you modify the values of the speeds... your still slipping thru 4 speeds on accident... which is a mechanical issue.   Think of running on ice...   you have hard time controling where you stop.   However..  pop on a pair of Spiked metal studded boots... and now you have the ability to stop accurately,   (the metal boots = the rubber "X"  )
 
 I do not have to Use your encoder to understand physics and mechanics.

"*sigh*, sensitivity is not at issue, and the 49-way doesn't purport to be "analog" any more than a P360 does.  Just so this is clear to anyone reading this, "This will NOT replace an analog joystick for applications requiring such to operate properly"  I didn't think I alluded otherwise."

  So..  your admitting that this was made more or less to use as a digital means
of control.   IE: non swappable ultimate uber joystick.    I can see what you mean... just not sure if the mechanics will be as good as the real things. 

"Well, to take similiarly misplaced "purist" position, I present for your consideration that because you used a 3rd party or heaven forbid,  "home made"  rubber spider, then the control you possess is no more "authentic" than  the ones your condemning.  It appears, sir, that your snobbery knows no bounds and that you clearly believe that as long as it is you who posses it , it can be nothing other than "right" and "just."

Ok, I was just having a bit of fun on that one.  Sorry....Smiley"

    heh.  funny stuff.   However.. its not snobbery.   Im simply making points about good control.   And... its yes, its not arcade authentic.   In fact, it probably wouldnt work - but, mame allows analog pot input...
and so the conbinations of controllable speeds is greater than the actual controller
in this instance.   If mame acted exactly as the arcade.. then the added resistence may not really matter.   But I also suspect that they kept the resistence a little lower so that the thing could be used in other games like bubbles and arch rivals -
where speed control wasnt as critical.

"Either that, or yours is not authentic and should be discarded immediately.  Ok, a little more fun"

  I can tell you that it certainly is a true sinistar controller.   Ive always been fasinated by mechanics.  Took every toy appart that I owned : )   And it got me
to be able to actually manage an arcade at one point in my life.   I was fixing them
for 3 yrs... so Im very aware of what makes them tick.  Im also very up on what
the older classics used interally.. and make it a point to find out if Im not sure.  However... I played a Ton of the classics in the 80s... so most I know by memmory
alone.   I also have some games, and collector friends that have classics as well... (that Ive been asked to fix on occassion)   Anyways... my point is... Im very keen on what makes a game control well.. and how these controllers work mechanically.
 
 btw - I am more than willing to admit when I am wrong.  And one case was about leaf switches.   I forgot about how much better they were for certain things because it had been so long... yet after a little roughness on the boards... I went to play some real leaf controlled games to make sure.   Sure enough, I was worng.. and Im now a preacher of thier great glory : )   

"The bottom line is this.  If you haven't tried it, all you have is speculation.  And based on some of the speculation, I'd say it was better left for those who were better at it"

  What I have is experience with mechanics.   In my opinion:

1) New style  49ways are not good for  Sinistar
2) Using an old style 49way to play 8way fighters may be hard
  (more resistence, and cant easily hit corners to feel what your doing)

3)  Using a new style 49way to play fighters may be Ok.
 
4)  Using a new/old  style to play 8way leaf games may be rough..
   (no smooth circular edge to run arround against)

5)  Using a new/old to play 4way games will work be slightly odd
    (a small delay when moving the extra distance of the corners, or
   a floating in space feel if full extention not needed)

6) 2 way control simular.   Will work fine.. but feel a tad awkwards,
  (as you might sometimes move the joy in half circles instead of straight)

 My main concern at the start of the thread was the way the digital end was handled.  But now, I think youve got it ok for digital.   However.. I personaly do not
think that mechanically it will be a better feel... and may lead to a lackend control because of the lack of guidence.

 I am more concerned over the thought that the new style 49 ways will work well with sinistar.  Thats my main reason for me even responding.   

 I feel that vendors should ask thier customers what features they want instead of being so secretive.   Youll get a lot of beneficial feedback that otherwise may cause piitfalls or lower sales.

 Maybe you wanted eveyone the kiss your butt.  If thats so.. then let the Retroblast guy do a review on the thing.  Unless it emits electrical shocks while playing...he will give it a 10 out of 10.  lol    ;D    :P    ::)

  Im sorry if you take it as a personal attack.  Its not meant to be that.   Its simple feedback based on knowledge of mechanics... and a suggested feature rip in replace of dual controls.   However... its probably too late for that.   Anyways..
good luck.

Lilwolf:
Looks cool!   (btw, you will need to test the other sticks... what they output is different).

Have some questions and comments.

How many joysticks can it handle? 

Do you both a linear / scaled range?  Run sinister and make sure you can move in 3 different speeds.  Depending on the mame driver that converts the analog -> digital... You just want to make sure you can.


As for the analog+ conversation.  I use analog+ for my SNK rotaries... because it is faster and feels much quicker then going through a hardware convert to l's and r's..... 

I use a Daves board for my 49 way.  Why?  I could go directly with analog+... But its a great joystick for a TON of other games.  I use it with a lot with console emulation where you need analog.  Great analog non-trigger flight stick.    (btw, this is where the linear scale comes into play).

So I believe there is a REAL use for these boards.  It allows you to use them with the windows version of blitz2000 (so you don't have to wait for a 10ghz PC to come out). 

And I love the other restrictor modes... but I can only see these working with the happs49 ways... the spider would probably make the joysticks suck for many other games. 

I would love to see someone do a full review and add it to their other joystick reviews... with games like SF ect.... hint hint hint

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