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Experience needed: How much to charge?

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DougHillman:
The responses here so far have been great.  I'm mostly just gonna reiterate what others have said. :)

First off, give him a preliminary proposal breaking down the costs and possible options.  I've got one that's the starting point for any cabinets I build.  Was gonna post it earlier, but then had to head out and do some finishing setup work on a cabinet and now I'm not at home with access to it.  I'll get it posted here tomorrow.  Anyways, I break stuff down into the major components and list any possible upgrades.

Usually a flat fee for the cabinet materials which runs ~ $200.00  That includes all wood, fasteners, paint, marquee acrylic & backlight, T-molding, etc.  Probably a good 50 - 75% higher than my actual costs.

Controls are listed for a basic 4/8-way switchable 2-Player 6/7 button layout with an I-Pac.  Optional 3 & 4 player controls, trackballs, spinners, etc are listed with their corresponding price.  I typically don't charge much (if any) over actual cost for the controls.  

List the price of various TV / monitor options.

If the computer isn't supplied, current market prices for a decently powerful system is listed with the notation that a computer that would play some of the newer games will require an additional cost while one built soley for the classics will be less.  When you're pricing a system, remember everything that's involved if you're not buying one already assembled.  You'll need motherboard, processor, memory, hard drive, video card, power supply and (unless you're gonna gonna leave the custome without any self-upgrading options) keyboard, mouse, & CD-rom drive.  

Artwork design can get expensive.  I offer some generic stuff for essentially the cost of printing, but custom work is gonna be more costly.  I've got little in the way of artistic deisgn skills, so this gets subcontracted out to my girlfriend.  And she's not cheap.  :)  

Finally my design/construction/setup fees work out to about $20-$25 an hour.  I've typically charged right around $500 for my fees.  Realistically, I shortchange myself here as I've only ever built custom cabs from scratch (instead of converting an existing cabinet) and spend alot of time in the design phase.  I find it enjoyable though, so I really don't charge for more than a coupla hours design time.  Setup time is probably also more actual time than I charge for, but that's including stuff like installing the OS on the computer and whatnot.  I'm always working on stuff of my own while that's going on in the background.    I also state that the cabinet will be delivered and set up in a fully working condition.   Any service/upgrades that are required after I leave the first day are charged at $25 an hour plus travel expenses (unless there's something wrong that's my fault.)  




I'll get the prospective customer this preliminary proposal along with some 3D renders and pictures of cabs I've built.  As well as a list of games with control needs that aren't covered by the basic 2P/6 button layout.   I'll then schedule a sit-down with them (preferrably at their place so I can get measurements and such) and discuss their needs/wants in detail.  Hafta have 4-Players for Gauntlet?  Love Missle Command?  HAVE to roll some two-player Marble Madness?  Want an old school cabinet where the CP doesn't extend past the edges?  Space restrictions?   What's the desired delivery date?  Is that feasible?  Will the client be providing any of the necessary parts (computer?  TV?  controls?)?


All of this results in a official contract and has to be hashed out ahead of time.  If changes are made along the way, they should be documented and signed off on by both parties as well.   I do this for every job I ever do, even for friends.  It's the best way to remain friends.  Makes sure you both know exactly where things stand.  (I'm not so uptight with my closest friends, but anyone who's a casual friend or less calls for a formal agreement.)

FWIW, every cabinet I've built from scratch has ended up costing the client in the realm of $1,500.00 US.  

A few words of advice.  If you have a specific delivery date, allow a coupla days cushion.  Don't expect to be slapping the thing together and delivering it that afternoon.  Invariably, there's a setup problem with the computer.  (I spent 2 weeks hashing out problems on the last one I built due to using an existing computer that I couldn't format and do a fresh install on.  Just as I got it all straightened out, the client decides to go ahead and buy new components for me to assemble him a more powerful one.  Got it thrown together with a fresh Win 98 install and everything set up nicely overnight.  Took it out and replaced the existing system with it this afternoon.  I forgot the S-video to RCA adapter that I needed, so I decided to swap in the card from the old system for the time being.  Unfortunatly, loading the drivers for the replacemement card crapped the whole system.  So now he's without it for a few days until I can get home & rebuild it again.)  Or there's a bad controller (This same cabinet has a faulty I-Pac4.  The P1-B2 input started going spotty immediately after assembly and eventually quit alltogether.  Not a devastating problem, as I had some spare input slots open and just moved the wire & reprogrammed the I-Pac, but it could have caused alot more trouble than it did.)  Or you've run out of wire after the stores have closed.  Unexpected delays are probably more the norm than the exception with projects such as these.  

Good luck.

Arcadiac:
Thanks all, the most basic question and answer I've gotten here so far that I haven't asked yet is how much is the client expecting to spend.  
My first cab, errors included, came in at well over $1200, including ~$400 for a pre-built computer.  
And that's not including my time which of course will be somewhat less because of what I learned. If I was to remove the Pc and sell the cab that way, monitor included, I wouldn't take less than $2000 for it.
Probably wouldn't get that much for it but thats what its worth to me.  With experience, I know it will not cost nearly as much to build this next one but, wow there is still a lot of time and effort involved, even in a conversion job.  
What I offered in my very basic, no prices included proposal/questionnaire was a 2p cp, 6 button, 1 4/8 way tstick plus, 1 standard arcade 8 way stick w/vinyl cp overlay, classic or custom marquee options, glass or plexi monitor glass, basic black bezel, no sideart, cosmetic coin door, no mechs, KDS 21" Pixeltouch monitor from CSO in a ready to add pc black box cabinet conversion, a Space Ace cab I bought recently.  Its a solid cab, needs very little wood repair and I may be able to just use the t-molding thats on it, its pretty clean.
So figuring out my hourly labor rate is the next part.  I have never personally made more than $10 hr. having basic skills, a little college and metal fabrication type factory work.  
So when I go to for example a PC repair shop and they mention $40-50 an hour for labor it freaks me out and I feel kinda ripped off.  
But then reality sets in.  These guys have the training, skills, facilities etc. to do the job properly.
So they are providing a service that I need for the going rate, a rate that they have earned through hours of hard work and education.
Having said all that, and feelings aside, I deserve to be compensated for even my limited experience.  Does $20-25 an hr for the labor sound reasonable to you guys?  
I completely understand that buying pre-built cabs are expensive, that's why I built my own.
Hopefully using your experience and help I can make this an equitable project for all concerned.
DougHillman if you don't mind sharing that starting proposal with us it would sure be a helpful starting place.  I also have never worked with contracts so anyone who has a basic one geared towards this type of work/proposal, please share it with us too.
I am in no hurry to rush this deal, thats why I have all these questions/reservations before starting.
One last question, why do I feel leery about asking for 50% up front?  Experience please!  Thanks All, ARCADIAC!

RayB:
Arcadiac, you're confusing two kinds of labor costs which are kind of like apples and oranges. There's labor involved in building something and then there's labor for short services like PC repair and auto repair.

Services with high hourly rates like for PC repair are for short jobs. That's why they charge so high. The rates balance out times when they have nothing to do with times when they are working. It also is supposed to help cover costs of their rent, their bills, their receptionist, etc. The person actually doing the work to fix your PC doesn't get the $50 per hour. He probably get's $20 to $25 or even less.

AND the rate is high because the repair jobs typically take only a couple hours.

So keep this in mind. What's your overhead? And how many hours are you going to invest. If it takes you 40 hours of labor, I'd say $50/hr is probably too much for labor alone.

Ray B.


Darkstalker:

--- Quote from: Arcadiac on September 26, 2004, 12:18:38 pm ---One last question, why do I feel leery about asking for 50% up front?  Experience please!  
--- End quote ---

I don't know, it isn't an odd request.  Since you aren't in buisness for yourself doing this full time, it's not unreasonable at all for him to at least cover parts cost plus maybe a little extra.  Just be upfront and honest, you can't float the part money until the project is done.  That way if he won't be likely to bail part way through.  What's got me wondering is why the last person fell through, what happened?

I'd suggest estimating the total time you're gonna need to build the cab and bill a flat rate.  Guess high though, because it's really hard to charge more later.  You mentioned $2000 for your cab, and that doesn't sound unreasonable compared to what some charge.  Maybe pad it a little at $2200 and go with that.

DrewKaree:
You feel leery because you don't do this for a living, you feel as if your skills aren't first rate....I can't help you with that one, it's just something you feel...you've done one already, though, so get over those AND QUICK  ;D  

You REALLY do have skills.  If you didn't, he wouldn't still be interested.

Also, perhaps it's because when you go to the mechanic to get your car fixed, they hand you a bill at the end of the transaction (or other service oriented transactions).  You are NOT in the same position - what will happen if he stiffs you on paying?  Will your rent money be tied up in buttons, joysticks, and t-molding?  Will you want to keep these parts around if he fails to pay, and can you afford to keep them?  

I find it the best way to do business...charge up front for your materials, that way, if you get stiffed, all you're out is your time, which IS valuable, but you haven't spent a dime out of your own pocket.  

Once you get some experience in, you won't feel bad getting a 75% deposit upfront  ;)

I'd tell the guy (now, by the way, to feel him out) that you're working on a contract, and when it's done, you two can get together and go over the details....then, as Doug said, have some set prices, and some options available and priced.

Oh, and something else....when asking him his wishes, silence on your part and listening will SAVE YOU when you're tempted to open your mouth and promise the world only to find out later you spoke too soon  ;)

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