Wells Gardner D9200 - Horizontal Collapse?

[Rocketeer2001]

Hi everyone! First time poster here.

I've recently acquired a Big Buck Hunter II: Sportsman's Paradise and it has seen some action. The guy I got it from said the machine would turn on, but the monitor wouldn't work and crackles, pops, and sparks would shoot out of the back. After a lot of research I learned I have a dreaded 27" Wells Gardner D9200 monitor. This is where the rabbit hole of woe and sorrow started. Apologies in advance for the long post.

I began by fixing some broken ground wire connections and fixing some solder joints. After that, the monitor would work, but still made crackling sounds every now and then, and the picture jittery at times. The common fix for these issues is to replace caps, so I replaced all 76 of the electrolytic capacitors (and made a list of every single cap if anyone wants it). That smartened up most of the issues. I could then see the monitor has some burn-in (not much I can do about that) and the image was rotated slightly counterclockwise. I adjusted VR101 to rotate the image, but it was already cranked as far as it would go so nothing could be gained there. I foolishly thought "I've manually fixed a rotation problem like this on a TV before, I'll just do that here". I didn't know at the time that the yoke is adhesive bonded to the tube's neck.

I could see there was hot glue all over the yoke, so I used a soldering iron to melt it away. I managed to get it to the point where I could wiggle the yoke, and I could twist it about 1 or 2 degrees, but it still offered resistance. This was enough to get the image straight though, so I just taped it in place temporarily while I adjusted other settings like color and gain, etc. I really wanted to get the colors better than they were, so I was attempted to hook up a laptop using a VGA cable so that I could run a CRT test pattern, but that darn chassis board would not play nice with my laptop. It might have been a resolution setting in the laptop, or it's something on the chassis board. I eventually gave up and put all the connections back to stock.

Shortly after this I wanted to see if I could copy the contents of the hard drive onto a CF card to use that for a boot drive because the original hard drive did not sound happy and I anticipated that any day now it would pack it in. That process is a whole nother story, but during the attempts to use the card is when the D9200 suddenly started making a horrible high screeching frequency noise and the image started experiencing what I think is horizontal collapse. When the machine boots up the text is all wobbly / jittery / zig-zaggy (see photo), but when the game is finally loaded, it actually looks like it's displaying "fine" but is just squished into 2" wide (see photo).

Here's the things I've checked so far:

Q412 - checks out fine
Q413 - checks out fine
Q414 - checks out fine
Q415 - checks out fine
Q425 - checks out fine
Q426 - checks out fine
Q427 - matches Q426
Q428 - had to remove it from the board, but checks out fine

D417 - checks out fine
D423 - checks out fine
D424 - checks out fine
D426 - checks out fine

VR402 - is good
VR101 - not good! Supposed to be 10k ohms but only got up to 4k. Likely the cause of my crooked image in the first place. I'll be replacing this one.

R312 - good
R314A, R314B - each read 0.4 ohms, but I didn't remove them from the board, but if I did I think they would read the expected 1.3 ohms
R318 - good
R415 - good
R418 - good
R424 - good...I think. It takes a while, but it eventually climbs up to 15k ohms.
R462 - good
R480, R479, R78 - each read 0.3 ohms, but I didn't remove them from the board, but if I did I think they would read the expected 1.5 ohms
R853 - good
R854 - good
R855 - good

Things I know I should check but haven't:
IC 404
IC 403
I don't have a way to test them powered up. The monitor is still in the cabinet and I have the chassis board on the workbench.

Some of those parts I de-soldered from the board to measure them individually, but some of them I tested still in the board. The only ones I removed were ones that were throwing out suspicious numbers. If it was close to the stated resistance value found on the schematics, I left it on the board to check.


I've done a lot of internet browsing for possible answers and spent a couple weekends attempting to fix this, but I'm still at a loss, so any insights you have would be greatly appreciated. Or should I just yeet this thing into the sun and find a 27" TV with S-video input and use that instead?

[grantspain]

do you get full deflection with video signal disconnected?

[Rocketeer2001]

Good question! I have not attempted to turn it on with no signal connected. If it displays the boot text normally with no signal, that would mean there's something wrong with the IC that does the resolution switching, yes?

[grantspain]

the max res on these is svga, some of these chassis revisions only go vga as the components are not on the chassis - i wonder if you went past the max res and damaged something, i doubt it would be ic, maybe a fet or transistor but looks like you checked most of them. q418 checks ok?
see what happens with no signal

[Rocketeer2001]

It seems like it should be a transistor to me too. I did take out Q418 and checked for resistance between pins, and it did give results. I have read other posts where these components were fine out of the board, but when they were on the board and powered up, they would start to overheat and mess up the values, thus not work properly. Maybe that's what's happening?

I should probably explain how I'm testing the parts. I'm not electronics expert, so I've just been googling these things.

For Mosfets I was putting the multimeter in diode mode, then measuring the center terminal to each outer terminal. I should see around 0.5V on one leg and nothing on the other.
I could also measure their resistance between outside terminals and get around 1.2 ohms.
I could also measure for continuity between the outside terminal. There should be none.

For Transistors, I'd use diode mode on the meter, measuring between the center leg and either outside leg. They should read around 0.6V

And because I'm not sure if any of that is correct, if I had the component off the board I tossed it in my transistor tester. It's a common gizmo that tests much more than just transistors (see pic).

[grantspain]

yes diode test is what i use, in general a bad fet or transistor will read a dead short if bad. I have had a transistor fail and not read dead short but will have an odd reading

[lilshawn]

i suspect a cap has gone out of spec in the horizontal tuning (search 400 area)... or a FET has gone bad (one of the ones the chassis uses to switch to tune the Hfreq)

also suspect anything attached to CS1/CS2/CS3... find your Hf logic in the table for your frequency you are running and check for shorts in the caps/opens in the resistors/transistors/fets attached to them (IRF640's etc) C455 C456 etc. so on.

[Rocketeer2001]

Sorry for the tardiness, it's been a busy week. Finally got some time to work on this today.

Before I put the board back in the cabinet and turn it on without an input signal, I wanted to check over a few more components since the board is already on the workbench.

I read that the deflection yoke could cause horizontal collapse if it's busted, so I tested the resistance of the coils and got 0.2 ohms for the horizontal and 2.3 ohms for the vertical. These numbers seem low, right? Then again, I don't know what the resistance should be on a D9200. If it's noted on the schematics, I couldn't find it. Anyone have a D9200 they could measure to give me a ballpark? I attached a pic so you can see the stellar condition it's in.

I then removed transistor Q418 to check it again. I use my LCR tester to check all sorts of parts, and normally it will identify what the part is and give you a little diagram with the resulting values (see pic of Q428 and Q430 to see what I mean). Q418 was identified as a "resistor", which seems odd to me (see pic). I did a diode test afterwards with my multimeter and I got 0.262V between center and one leg, and 0.334V between center and the other leg, which is what I think are normal, so Idunno.

Following lilshawn's advice, I checked a few other transistors and didn't see any issues. Then checked the big C456 polypropylene capacitor and got 0.304uf as a result (see pic). Schematics say it should be 0.24uf, so that seems close enough. Decided to check the other 4 big polypropylene capacitors but they were all stuck together with some kind of glue, so they had to be removed as a clump (see pic). The results I got are below [figures in these brackets are what the schematics say the values are]:

C430 [1.2uf, 440V] = 1.18uf, ESR 0.23 ohms
C438 [0.39uf, 440V] = 0.303uf, ESR 0.09 ohms
C455 [0.15uf, 250V] = 0.319uf, ESR 0.10 ohms   This one looks to be double the value it should be. Too far out of spec?
C475 [394pf, 440V] = 390.4nf, ESR 0.09 ohms  This one is rated in picofarads, but my result was in nanofarads. Right numbers, but wrong scale. I should have got 0.3904pf.


What do you guys think is the biggest issue here? The yoke, Q418, or these last couple capacitors? Or all the above?

[Rocketeer2001]

Apologies, I'm trying to upload all the photos but I keep getting errors. I'll try again in a bit, I guess.

[grantspain]

the transistor reading seems odd to me, i would expect collector/base 0.450 and emitter/base 0.500 or around that sort of range

your yoke looks pretty bad, the yoke in my experience are one of the most common failures on d9200 - they just corrode due to the crt suface paint flaking off and rotting the windings or actually burning out. One of the horizontal pins on the connector has been burning for some time, it could be poor connection

c455 is well out of spec but are you going from the component marking or the schematic, c475 looks to be completely wrong but if its marked 394 then the cap is 390nf

I think first thing to do is check all the codes on the caps and if they all match then replace the yoke connector pin

I am leaning towards corroded yoke but that normally causes dead short to HOT and blows, the fault you have on a chassis with a good yoke would be down to an out of spec high voltage poly cap - it could be any of the poly caps rated from 250v to 1.6kv . An example of this is a polo 25 chassis i had this week whereby the 3.3nf 1.6v cap was bad, chassis ran but eht was high and the width control had no proper range

[grantspain]

i take back the readings on q428  should be about 0.640 on those junctions

[princess prin prin]

I tested the resistance of the coils and got 0.2 ohms for the horizontal and 2.3 ohms for the vertical. These numbers seem low, right? Then again, I don't know what the resistance should be on a D9200.

Low resistance (and inductance) is what you find on the horizontal coil of monitors that can do 31KHz so 0.2 ohm is fine to me. If you have an LCR meter measure the inductance, it should be in the 0.2-0.3 mH range.

I then removed transistor Q418 to check it again. Q418 was identified as a "resistor", which seems odd to me (see pic). I did a diode test afterwards with my multimeter and I got 0.262V between center and one leg, and 0.334V between center and the other leg, which is what I think are normal, so Idunno.

Q418 is an NPN transistor so it tests like any other NPN, with Base-Collector being one P-N junction and Base-Emitter being the other one. This means that you'll have voltage drop readings only on those (with red probe on Base). You should have about 0.45V on B-C and 0.50V on B-E (all 2SC5144, all test similarly):

[Rocketeer2001]

The one wire on the yoke connector does look like it's been getting hot, but the actual pin inside is still clean and makes a good connection.

I can probably use the LCR meter to test inductance of the yoke. I've never tried, but it's a feature-packed little device, so I'll give it a go.

I did notice that C456 on the schematic is 0.24uf, but the actual part has a '304' on it (see pics), so you're probably right that the components used don't match the schematic and I should just check the labels on the parts instead. It just means I have to split that glue to get them apart. I hope the labels don't get ruined by this and become illegible.

If Q418 is just a big NPN transistor, then I would expect the LCR meter to identify it as so. It identifies all functioning NPN transistors, so I'm leaning towards this being the culprit. I kind of tested it backwards in diode mode with the negative probe on the base.

Lets see if the pics will upload this time...

...nope, still get this error that says "your attachment has failed security checks and cannot be uploaded". Not sure what security check it's failing. It's under the size limit and it's just a jpeg, like the other photos I posted. Is there a limit to how many photos can be posted in 24hrs or something?

[grantspain]

i thought it was q428 that was reading bad, its a 2sc945c and is part of the frequency circuit and would certainly explain your issue as the chassis would not be able to find the right frequency
q418 is the horizontal output transistor, 2sc5144 and should read exactly as princess prin prin has shown

[PL1]

Lets see if the pics will upload this time...

...nope, still get this error that says "your attachment has failed security checks and cannot be uploaded". Not sure what security check it's failing. It's under the size limit and it's just a jpeg, like the other photos I posted. Is there a limit to how many photos can be posted in 24hrs or something?

Unfortunately, the forum software sometimes throws false positives during the security checks.   
https://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,164181.0.html

The best known workaround is to either crop or resize the image by about 3-5% and try uploading it again.


Scott

[Rocketeer2001]

I hooked the LCR meter up to the yoke and got:
2.8 ohms, 0.23mH for the Horizontal and
9.3 ohms, 5.71mH for the Vertical
Those readings look much better than what my multimeter spat out, and is close to that 0.2mH range you mentioned, so it looks like the yoke is good! (whew).

I hadn't actually looked up the spec sheet for Q428 because it didn't look vastly abnormal at a glance. Is the hFE or Uf no good? Is that the 0.64 you were talking about?
Makes me second guess if any of the transistors I tested were actually good. If the LCR meter didin't show a fault or incorrectly identified it, I assumed it was good.

The Q418 transistor definetly doesn't read 0.5v, so maybe it is kaput.

I broke apart the group of poly caps so I could read their labels and only got a 75% success rate. That white paint or epoxy or whatever it is absorbed the ink from the label, so when I scraped that off the ink went with it. I have no idea what C455 is supposed to say, which is of course the only one I really wanted to know, but all the other ones matched the schematics. Well, mostly; the other 3 said they were 440V MMP on paper, but the actual parts are 400V MPA. Not sure if that's a big deal.
So do I trust the schematics that C455 is supposed to be 0.15uf? Mine reads 0.319uf, which would be wrong.

C456 reads 0.30uf when it should be 0.24uf. Big enough of a variance to warrant replacing?

Do Q418 (and maybe Q428) seem sketchy? Should I just replace all those parts and see what happens?

[princess prin prin]

The HOT is definitely at fault (leaky) as you should have OL with the probes connected like that (or whatever your meter displays when the probes are disconnected).

Your 2.8 ohm reading isn't correct for the horizontal yoke (looks like your meter was doing a better job here).

[Rocketeer2001]

Prin prin, I took out the Q418 again and hooked it up to my multimeter in the same configuration you did. It said 0.32v and 0.08v. I think we can confidently say that its broken. I'll get a new one of those.
What would cause that to fail? Or is being 21 years old reason enough?

Should I replace C455 as well? I mean, it must be a cheap part. I might as well just get one and hope the schematics are accurate and it's a 0.15uf, 250V.

Anything else I should be ordering just to be safe?


Scott, thanks for the suggestion about cropping the photos! It's a bit inconvenient, but it does work.

[grantspain]

don't get a 2as5144 to replace q418, get one of these
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/onsemi-Fairchild/FJL6920TU?qs=CR8BwU6haLdFGBuY0BHhSA%3D%3D

i would also replace q428, 2sc945c and c455

[Rocketeer2001]

Hey Grant, I did discover before your reply that the stock Q418 part number of Toshiba 2SC5144 was hard to find, and the ones I did find were questionable. I did find the alternative part number for the Fuji FJL6920TU, so I'll go with that.

I'm thinking I'll remove these transistors and check them again with the LCR meter, since I'm clearly a novice at determining which are good and bad. Some of them are similar to Q428 so might be failing too:

Q412 - C945C-Y
Q413 - IRF644
Q414 - 2N7000
Q415 - IRFS640A
Q423 - C945C-Y
Q424 - A733C-Y
Q425 - C4770
Q426 - IRF630A
Q427 - IRF630A
Q428 - C945C-Y (this is the CS2)
Q430 - C102M (this is the CS1)

I don't have a CS3 so there is no Q429 or Q416 on my board.

See anything else worth checking? Just want to make sure I order all the parts I need at the same time.

[grantspain]

i think the 3 components, q412, q428 and c455 will do the job.
but if you have time it can't hurt to check all the compoents you list
i reckon q412 is causing the frequency problem, c455 is causing the horizontal size problem. q428 is the odd one here as its reading strange but not short, definitely needs replacing though

[Rocketeer2001]

Grant, I hope it's ok if I lean on you for your expertise here. I used my LCR meter to measure all these parts. See anything amiss? In my little label, I have the Q number, then the schematic number, and then the actual number that's printed on the part:

[Rocketeer2001]

and the last 4

[grantspain]

as far i can see all those read correct

[Rocketeer2001]

Ok!

Interestingly, that Q428 that you didn't like the looks of before, is now ok. I have similar conflicting results with Q430. I think the first time I removed them to test them I slapped them in the meter perhaps too quickly, and they were still too warm from the heat transfer of the soldering iron, which would give me screwy results. See the pics of the before (the first test) and after (yesterdays test). I just realized after looking at those numbers more carefully, that maybe I mislabeled my original photos from my first test, and they're actually the reverse...I'll go test those two transistors again just to be sure, haha.

Guess I'll just be ordering the Q418 and the C455. Dangit, I just noticed that in the schematics it says this cap is a 250V, but in the parts list it says its a 440V. If I recall, it's ok to get caps with a higher voltage rating than what they came with, so should I just get it as a 440V?

[lilshawn]

higher voltage is okay. you typically spec a cap for about 2x the voltage... then the next closest working value up from that.

so for a 150v power rail, i'd spec out like a 350v capacitor (150+150=300) i'd probably only have a 300v, a 400v, or maybe even a 1000v in my bin and it would probably be completely fine to use any one of them... and for a 12v power rail a 25v cap. (12+12=24) and although it would be perfectly okay to use 16v capacitor...i'd probably spec a 35v cap anyway anyway since it's more common than 25v caps and the size difference isn't too much and it adhers to the "rule"

the rating is often fairly overspec'd for it's labeled working voltage anyways. it's basically the rating the dielectric insulator breaks down and allows current to pass through it unimpeded. chances are, a good cap will (albeit unhappily) take 2x it's rated voltage before ACTUALLY breaking down... it would probably change it's value much sooner running it constantly over voltage like that... but even factoring in your back-of-the-napkin estimates of doubling the working voltage of the circuit, you are really in the 3x neighborhood of being overspec'd anywhos.

i think that rail maxes out at like 195 or 212v? something like that? depends on the resolution... but i think a 250v is probably perfectly fine... it doesn't adhere to the 2x "rule" per se, but is still within the working voltage it's rated at... and probably why someone changed the part list to say 450v

[Rocketeer2001]

Ok, good explanation! I picked out a 400V one. They had a 250v, but it was oddly tiny in physical size, and they had a 450v but was also tiny. The 400V one was the closest in physical size to the old one, and had all other specs matching what I needed.

When the parts show up, I'll get them installed and report back.

Thanks for the help so far everyone!

[Rocketeer2001]

The new parts arrived in a day, so I installed them today in the board and put everything back in the arcade cabinet. Turned it on and for a split second it seemed like it was working! But then I saw that new Q418 horizontal transistor sizzle around it's edges and the heatsink with electricity, then the whole board let out a horrible screeching noise and we're back to collapse.

I'm thinking whatever part broke the original HOT has now cooked my brand new HOT. Or my new HOT was faulty, or the new C455 capacitor was faulty, or something else?

[grantspain]

what heatsink compound did you use and insulation sheet?

[lilshawn]

check D416 and D417.

and yes, you should be using a mica sheet and silicone heatsink compound.

the hot must be isolated from the heatsink.

[Rocketeer2001]

I used thermal paste for a computer's CPU heatsink. I put that on both sides of the original mica sheet and placed that between the HOT and the heatsink. I don't know if the paste has silicone in it; is that specific ingredient a requirement?

I had checked D417 before and it was ok, but I'll check it again. I didn't check D416 yet, but I will. I'll check D422 too.

I tried disconnecting the input signal to the board and turning it on just in case it was the frequency switching transistor running amuck, and I don't get a constant screeching. More like 1 second intervals of a clicking sound (a relay?) with arcing occurring around the HOT.

[lilshawn]

i say "silicone" because lots of thermal pastes for computers contain metals (silver etc.) or carbon and cannot be used in this application due to their electrical conductivity.

you need something like MG chemicals 860 ... basically plain white heatsink grease.

if it's gray, chances are pretty good it has conductive stuff in it.

normally it wouldn't matter... but at voltages and currents like this... it does 100%

[Rocketeer2001]

The thermal paste I use is grey, so I put my multimeter in continuity mode and shoved the probes into a glob to see if it conducts. It did not. Then again, it is just measuring using the voltage the multimeter can provide, which is only 1v or so. I'm guessing at the higher voltages the HOT puts out, this stuff could conceivably conduct. I'm uncertain, but I'll get some of the MG 860 stuff just to be safe.

The mica sheet was in there, but upon closer inspection it looks like it's de-laminating? Also now has some char marks. I should probably just get a replacement.

I removed the transistor to test it to see if it's toast, and surprisingly it's still good! (see pic)  However, I had a suspicion that the part was arcing/grounding too easily, so using my multi-meter I probed within the mounting hole and the back of the transistor and I get continuity. Not everywhere in the hole, but in a few locations. It must have had a thin layer of insulation or something because it was shorting out to the mounting screw and thus into the heatsink. Some of the part has crumbled away around the hole from where the arcing was occurring (see pic), but there are other parts of the hole that look perfectly fine, yet the meter still shows continuity when probed. I'm thinking maybe I got a faulty part (in conjunction with my possibly incorrect thermal paste and de-laminating mica).

I then proceeded to test D416, D417, and D422. The first two were good, but D422 is suspicious. It shows 0.28v in diode mode when the other two show 0.5V. Could this be a contributor?

Also tested my new capacitor and thankfully it's fine!

[grantspain]

you can compare d422 to d423, if they read the same then all good
the insulaton sheet you need is for TO-264  transistor package type

[Rocketeer2001]

Grant, Good suggestion on comparing to D423 since it's the same part number. After checking, it's got the same voltage; Looks like my D422 is good!

Thanks for providing the package size of TO-264. I wouldn't have known what to look for otherwise. Even so, I'm having trouble finding that size that won't cost an arm and a leg. If I buy 300 of them, it's a bargain!

How do we feel about using silicone sheets rather than mica with compound? If I use the sheets, I can cut it to whatever size I need and I wouldn't need the compound:
https://www.amazon.ca/100x100mm-Efficient-Conductivity-Resistant-Silicone/dp/B096ZNHY8F/ref=pd_sbs_d_sccl_3_2/144-4490169-7451254?pd_rd_w=heB6B&content-id=amzn1.sym.4b791088-03f0-49af-8af1-ae2f52d6208b&pf_rd_p=4b791088-03f0-49af-8af1-ae2f52d6208b&pf_rd_r=6FAWM4WQCSZ53FYBVCVG&pd_rd_wg=4316Q&pd_rd_r=4a0bdac6-e605-491f-bdf8-ecf523b85029&pd_rd_i=B096ZNHY8F&psc=1

Arcade Parts & Repair sells both kinds, but because I'm in Canada it's over $20 for a $2 part...
https://www.arcadepartsandrepair.com/store/integrated-circuits/transistors/mica-transparent-insulator-to-264-package-5-pieces/
https://www.arcadepartsandrepair.com/store/pinball-kits-parts/pinball-parts/mica-silicon-insulator-to-264-package-5-pieces/#reviews

Or I get the MG compound and just reuse the original mica.

[grantspain]

not sure, it would probably be ok if you got the thinnest one. i would still use thermal past with it.

your original mica sheet is knackered, thats what is causing the arcing and it most likely to have been the fault all along

[princess prin prin]

You can also use a TO-3PL (22*29*0.12mm with hole). This is cheap if you don't mind waiting:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/324673667376

[lilshawn]

typically the silicone pads used for transistors has a fiberglass fabric inner layer to keep the silicone from squeezing out and puncturing when the transistor is screwed down.

they are also only 0.3mm thick.

[Rocketeer2001]

Grant, thanks for confirming the old mica should be tossed.

I did some reading and although the thermal pads are easier to use, I couldn't find consistent claims that it would insulate against the higher voltages, or that it was substantially better at thermal conductivity than the mica. Looks like it's a good substitute for computer CPU heatsinks though. Shawn, I did read about the various silicone pads and how some have that fiberglass layer, but I wasn't finding good sources for it. A lot of items just claimed it was a silicone thermal pad, but didn't really mention enough details regarding its properties. We know the mica works and lasts a long time, so I'll just go with that and get the accompanying compound.

Prin, I did stumble across the size compatibility of the TO-3PL, and that same ebay link! I ended up ordering some of those and payed a few bucks more for faster shipping. It's still going to take about a month, so our little adventure here will have to pause for a bit. TO BE CONTINUED...

[lilshawn]

typically the cut to fit silicone pads like what you had linked are for filling space between a device and a heatskinking material like the back cover case of a device... where you want to remove excess heat, but not real concerned about how much.

you quite often see them in TV's where the main video processor has a pad that makes it so there is contact with the metal backing of the LCD panel. it sucks out SOME heat...but not a real lot.

you also see them on VRMs and ram  chips for video cards to get some heat out to the heatsink.

more of a space filler than anything else.

[Rocketeer2001]

That's the impression I was getting looking at all the ones for sale. Thanks for clarifying!

The replacement transistor has arrived, and the MG Chemicals silicone compound has also arrived. Now I'm just waiting on the mica.

[Rocketeer2001]

I'm back!

Got the replacement transistor for Q418, the MG silicone heat compound, and the mica sheets. I think the quality of mica sheets has severely declined since the early 2000's. I could only order them in a pack of 20, and out of all those only 1 looked somewhat better than what I already had.

Anyways, put all that stuff back on the board, put the board back in the cabinet, turned it on and....nothing. I get the *thump* sound when I flick on the power, and the neck tube is glowing, and I can hear a relay clicking 3 separate times, but the screen is black and it doesn't do that frightening electrostatic sizzle a tube typically makes when it energizes.

Seems like I have a power problem now. I don't think I hooked up any wires incorrectly, but I'll go double check. If not that, what else? The flyback? Q401, Q425, IC101, or IC403?

One step forward, two steps back...

[grantspain]

does the sheet fully cover the transistor metal body?

[Rocketeer2001]

Yup! It's the same size as the old one.

[lilshawn]

upstream from the transistor is a fet that can sometime get plotzed when the main transistors go. it'd be Q413. double check that D417 diode pack too if you haven't already. it's hard to tell what the problem is with these monitors since every single system is separate in these chassis, since it sounds like no HV is being produced now... but not sure since you can't actually tell if having the Q418 in there now is working and you have deflection... but can't see it cause of no HV.

if no hv sounds (and not just a horizontal line) you may have to go upstream from both those systems and look at the "h-outctrl" signal coming from the main IC driver chip (IC301 pin 21). if effs off in a tee and one direction goes to the horizontal Yoke drive circuit and the other goes to the drive circuit for the flyback. i'm dealing with a similar issue with a D9200 with "the jitters" and have been pouring over this area for a while trying to find the issue... so i've been getting very familiar with it.

anyway, sounds like maybe that signal has now stopped since you have no HV and previously you did. there is a bit of shared circuitry so it's possible for a failure in one to effect the other. could be worth looking into Q423 Q424...  Q426 and Q427. they are pre-pre-drive transistors and pre-drive mosfets used to drive their respective transformers (T404 and T405) that fire off the h-deflection (2SC5144) and HOT transistors (2SC4770). this is the beginning of the "tee"

make sure you have a +32v power coming in to this part of the circuit at R470, this is the juice used to make the pulses in the transformers by grounding out the other transformers leg to ground through the pre-drive mosfets.

might be a problem with Q413 or D418, since the 170v drive that flows through the 2SC5144 flows through this fet and diode, and grounding that 170v out through an improperly attached 5144 can cause a huge amount of current to go through Q413 and D418. check and make sure you have 170v here as well. if not, you have an issue further up the chain in the power supply (possible blown out R854 or D814 or open L801).

[Rocketeer2001]

Hey Shawn, thanks for the excellent suggestions!

I found 2 faulty parts:
Q413 is completely shorted; all it's legs have continuity to one another and the mounting tab.
Q414 is reading as two resistors instead of a mosfet, so I'm going to assume that one is bad.

Just to be sure, I also checked these parts and they are all still good:
D417
Q423
Q424
Q426
Q427
Q412
Q415
Q428
Q430

I didn't check the IC301 or any transformers or if I had +32v at R470. The two faulty parts you've helped locate are likely the only problem (fingers crossed), unless you think there's anything else I should be check knowing that Q413 and Q414 failed.

[lilshawn]

i would check R854, its a resistor that knocks down the 170 as it comes out of the SMPS. if the 170 line has been overloaded, it's possible the resistor has gone out of spec, causing the voltage to be off.

since both q414 and q413 where both bad, i'd double check everything in that section upstream and down....

R460
c470
D424
c448
C436
D405
C457
R461
R462
D418
D417

basically check the capacitors and the diodes for shorts and the resistors to be within tolerance... having shorted components is a real stressor. hopefully nothing else is wrong, but it can't hurt to check.

[Rocketeer2001]

An excellent suggested list of things to check! I see where you're going with this.

I got started on it tonight but didn't get too far. R854 is fine, but R462 is shot. Has no resistance, so I'll need one of those. I was getting unreliable readings from the capacitors on the board, so I'll have to remove them to test them properly.

To be continued!

[Rocketeer2001]

I proceeded this evening to remove all these components and test them:

R854
R460
R461
R468
D424
D405
D417
D418
D429
C470
C448
C436
C457
C442
C443
C419

Out of all those parts, none of them were bad. They are all fine. The only new failed part I found is the same as yesterday, the R462. I'll put in an order tonight and hopefully have those before the weekend.

Shawn, I hope you're getting somewhere with your D9200 as well.

[lilshawn]

thanks, hopefully that you get back up and running again. (or at least closer to running so we can see what else is going on)

my projects get back burnered all the time. I have stuff at work that comes up that needs my priority, so it can take quite a while to get back around to things. i like "explaining" out my repair attempts in my posts, so when inevitably i forget where i was at in my repair... i can swing back and read through my post to jar my memory. 

getting old sucks 

[Rocketeer2001]

I got all the parts last Thursday...except for that one resistor, which shipped separately and didn't arrive until today. Put all 3 parts in and...still broken

It did behave differently this time though. I had the game board disconnected from the monitor so that I could see if the "no signal" appeared on the screen first before trying to boot up anything else. When I turned on the power, there was a sizzle of high voltage going to the CRT, so that was good, but then the chassis board starting making a quickly repeating clicking sound, similar to a geiger counter. There was also the normal clicking of a relay that I heard before, but still no image on the screen.

I turned it off, then reconnected the game board to see if having a signal would make a difference. Turned it back on and the sizzle, clicks, and relay clicks were there again, but this time the geiger counter clicks got quieter and the relay clicks got slower. Sure enough, there was an image trying to form on the screen, but it was all garbled with micro-seconds of dim clarity of the "no signal" image.
*EDIT* The neck was also glowing, so I assume that means it's getting enough power to run the tube, but just isn't getting a good video signal.

Then there was a loud BANG and I saw a spark at the neck board. I shut everything down, let it cool down for a few minutes then took the neck board off to see if any components exploded. They all looked visually fine; I think it was just a grounding discharge. Not sure why that would happen.

The new clicking sound was coming from the same corner of the board that all the horizontal collapse components failed around.
The spark on the neck board was just left of the neck if you're looking at the back of the board.

I haven't taken anything else out to inspect. Getting a little tired of this monitor. Although, it's technically no longer horizontally collapsing, so I guess that's a win. It's just fritzing in all directions now.

I will now open the floor to any questions and suggestions for the next course of action.

[grantspain]

was the bang noise more of a heavy crack noise?
I imagine you remembered to connect the neck card dag earth?
I can't remember if q414 original was a irfs644 or irf644, the latter would require a insulation sheet

[Rocketeer2001]

Yeah, it was more of a snap. Like a quick arc. I did have all the grounds connected so it was a bit surprising if the neck board is trying to arc to ground. It only happened once within 30 seconds of powering on.

Q414 is just a little guy. Like an NPN transistor, so no insulation sheet.

I've been doing some searches online and the common culprit for repetitive ticking noises is the HOT or the flyback dying. I've already replaced the HOT...twice, so is it maybe the flyback? I should probably remove the HOT again and check it to see if it got fried, yet again.

[lilshawn]

it's not uncommon for the main B+ supply to act weird due to a bad feedback capacitors. changing out C413 C314 could stop it from doing the ticking thing.

faint ticking/buzzing with no power and acting "dead" can be a sign that the SMPS controller chip (U802) thinks there is an overload condition and will continually attempt to restart the power supply. it will also sometimes work just fine... then other times it won't want to start again.

if you heard/saw an electrical arc on the neck board... check the resistors. they can look okay on the top side, but if you look carefully at the side of the resistors that is up against the circuit board, you can sometimes find one blown out.

while i wouldn't discount the idea of a failing flyback... you never know with these things. the D9200 D9400 series monitors where an absolute engineers wet dream. they did all the crazy things they thought was a good idea and the next big thing since sliced bread... and sadly... many of them aren't... it just makes 10x the amount of things that can go wrong.

[Rocketeer2001]

I'll give those capacitors a look this weekend. It doesn't seem to be a power issue though, because the neck tube was glowing the whole time, it just wasn't showing a proper image.

I'm wondering if maybe the chassis board is fine, and my issue is actually with the neck board or the video/sync board, because the slight blips of images I got on the screen were of the "no signal" message, but I had the game board hooked up and running, so I should have been seeing blips of the game and not the "no signal". Perhaps the video signal isn't making it to the chassis board?

The neck board and the sync board admittedly don't look fantastic; almost like they might have been exposed to some water damage in the past. Maybe I'll try reflowing all the solder joints on those two boards and see how that pans out. I'll check for burnt resistors too.

If that doesn't pan out, what is everyone's thoughts on just turfing this stupid monitor and using a CRT TV as the monitor? I've been reading up on how to do RGB mods to commercial TV's, and it doesn't seem that difficult compared to trying to track down the issue with this D9200. So far I've spent $75 trying to make this damn thing work, and I know I can't find a genuine replacement arcade monitor for less than $400, yet I can
find an old TV with few miles on it with no image burn-in for next to free on kijiji, and then spend a few dollars on the couple components needed to mod it.

[lilshawn]

the no signal message, as well as the OSD menu is produced locally on the neckboard using a secondary channel on the video amp IC chip.

could be a sketchy +5v rail maybe? if the voltage isn't stable, the computers controlling things could be cutting in and out.

still concerned by the arcing you described.

[Rocketeer2001]

I'm back to report failures. Now, instead of just clicking, there's no image at all. No arcing this time either, which is a plus, I guess. Here's what it's doing:


I checked Q413, Q414, D424, R854, R462 and C314 on the chassis board, and they were all fine. I also checked Q418 again and it's still fine.

Moved on to the input board and checked Q220, Q501, Q502, R518, R525, R516, and two zener diodes and a capacitor that's in the one corner of the board. Everything was fine.

Tried finding any faults on the neck board and there was only a few questionable resistors, but after pulling them from the board R267 and R217 were fine. I then proceeded to reflow all the solder joints on that board. Took over an hour, and apparently didn't help at all.

It became difficult to tell if components on the neck board and input board were bad because the schematics don't match my boards. They had different parts with different values. Kind of weird that there's only one set of schematics for this monitors even though there are multiple revisions of the boards.

I used this guys repair videos to see if there was anything else was worth checking and all the parts he checked were fine on my boards:




Thoughts? Mine are, "That dumpster is starting to look like a basketball hoop, and this monitor is starting to look like a basketball".

[Rocketeer2001]

Another day of testing, and still haven't found the issue. Just to be sure, I removed a bunch of parts from the boards and tested them to make sure previously tested and/or replaced parts didn't fail again. All of these tested good:

C310
C828
C441

D403
D417
D421
D423
D424
D425
D426
D427
D431
ZD403

R314A
R314B
R317
R406
R415
R416
R426
R429
R432
R433
R435
R437
R445
R454
R462
R854
R481
R483
R485
R487

Q401
Q402
Q403
Q404
Q405
Q412
Q413
Q414
Q415
Q418
Q419
Q423
Q424
Q425
Q426
Q427
Q430

Kind of took the shotgun approach and just went at everything.
At this point, I'm either looking at a transformer, the flyback, or an IC. Or I just keep looking in the wrong spots and it's still an elusive diode, resistor, mosfet, or transistor.

What ya'll think?

[Rocketeer2001]

Slight update:

I checked the B+ voltage at the 854 resistor and I have 170v. It warbles a bit between 169 and 173, but mostly stays at 170.

This means my power section is good, right?

Just to reiterate, I can hear the tube static as it powers on, the screen is black, the 'no signal' message is NOT present, and the neck has glow. All the while, something is clicking away constantly in the general area of the HOT. This is without the game board plugged in, so no input signals are present.

[Rocketeer2001]

I did some further testing this weekend. I was able to borrow a thermal camera adapter for my phone, and using this I could inspect the boards while they were running in the cabinet. Photos aren't the highest quality, and the angles are weird due to the space limitations of shoving my hand and phone inside a live cabinet.

I didn't find anything outrageously hot, but I did get some results. Keep in mind, these images show the hottest thing in the camera's view, and the coldest. Usually that range is from 22°c to 28ish.

In the power section, I can see some resistors and diodes get warm, but nothing unreasonable (see pic).

There's 3 resistors near the back (R137, R138, R196) that get up to 48°c, but I think that's normal for giant resistors like this (see pic).

On the neck board I can see the main IC201 gets warm, as do the large heat sinks, but nothing hotter than 31°, so it seams fine.

The signal input board has a couple of diodes in the corner that get pretty hot (45°) but I recall the dude in one of those youtube video's I posted saw the same thing happening to his board. I guess it's normal. I tested the diodes and they still work, so I guess it's fine? (see pic)

The one thing that really caught my attention was this somewhat hot spot over by R469 (the big ceramic resistor). R490 and IC404 were in the middle of that. I have a different pic where that IC is up to 55°, which is suspicious to me (to be continued).

And I was curious what the tubes neck looked like so I snapped a pic of that for fun.

[Rocketeer2001]

After doing the thermal tests, I then decided to do some voltage checks. Hard to do with the monitor still in the cabinet, so I removed the chassis, located components of interest, hooked up jumper leads to them, labeled the leads, then put it all back in the cabinet and flicked it on. I could then test each lead with a multimeter from outside the cabinet without sticking my hands in dangerous places.

Something odd I noticed is when doing the thermal camera checks, I had the game board off and only the monitor turned on, and the clicking sound would be constant. I also had no static feeling on the monitor glass.
When I was testing the voltages later on, it clicked a few times when I turned it on, and didn't click again. Now it has a slight buzz coming from the neck board and the monitor has static if I run my hand over the glass, so the flyback must be working now, right?
It no longer clicks when I turn it on. It just behaves like it's not getting a signal and still doesn't display the 'no signal' message.
Except for one round of tests where I actually got some color and very distorted blips of the 'no signal' image, but I could never make it appear again. 

I can hear the tube static trickle away when I shut the monitor off, so it sounds like it is degaussing.

Have a look at my marked-up screenshot of the schematic. I've noted where I tested for voltages and the results I got. It seems to me like maybe the IC404 is my issue if you look at the voltages on their pins, and take into account the thermal image of this chip. It's very strange that I get 0V near R490, but have 11.9v at R493. I did test those resistors on-board and their values are correct, but maybe I'll pull them and see if they're still good.

Or maybe it's T401 not creating the voltage IC404 needs to operate?
Or maybe T403 isn't working and it's messing up T401?
At C432 beside T401, I get ZERO voltage. I think it's supposed to be around 18v?

I also tested the Neck Board voltages at the connectors, and compared to what the printed values said, I got:
4.98v (should be 5v)
7.19v (should be 8v)
170.2V (should be 170v)
11.93v (should be 12v)

Lastly, I tested these parts and they're good:
Q404
Q419
C432
D416
D423
R438
R440
R492
R491

I'm thinking of just getting an IC404 and slapping it in there and seeing what happens. Unless you guys have some other tests I should do to narrow this down, or suggest some other parts I should get at the same time just in case I get another domino effect.

[Rocketeer2001]

I'm back with my final report.

I determined that IC404 wasn't putting out the correct voltages so I opted to try replacing it. Before doing so I checked everything around it one last time and found the fusing resistor R415 to be way out of spec. Supposed to be 22 ohms and it had around 230ohms. I went to get a replacement but couldn't fit it in 1/4w, so had to get it in 1/3w instead.

After replacing those two parts, I put the board back in the machine and flicked on the power. Black screen, no high voltage sizzle in the screen, and the HOT was back to repetitive clicking.

Anticipating that this might not solve the problem, while ordering those parts I also ordered a bunch of other parts that could be the problem, along with spares of commonly reported failed components. Since my first attempt didn't work, I figured I may as well toss all these parts in, and then I'd know for sure that A) one of those parts was the issue, or B) none of those parts were the issue but at least I'd know they were all new.

I tested each old part as I removed it, just to see if there was anything amiss. Here's what I replaced:
IC401
IC402
IC803 - Test result said "unknown part". I assume that means it was dead.
IC805
IC806 - Test result said "unknown part". I assume that means it was dead.

C810 - This part was already new, but the troubleshooting guide said to replace it with a 270uf 35v cap instead of the 220uf if you have issues, so I did.

Q402 and Q401 - test result was a little off compared to Q402
Q426 and Q427
Q413 and Q407 - test result was a little off compared to Q413
Q105, Q403, Q405, Q412, Q419, Q423, Q428

After changing all of those, I turned it on aaaaaaand....we're back to the same condition. No improvement.

And with that, I give up.
I've been banging my head against this wall for long enough .
This D9200 is a real piece of work! I've been trying to fix this thing for months and it sounds like these have a history of being great when they work and being a nightmare when they don't. I've only experienced the latter so in my limited experience I'm calling this thing a piece of junk!

I've found an alternate solution. I came across a free 27" Toshiba 27AFX55 TV on kijiji. I went and picked it up and it works great. Absolutely nothing wrong with it. This series of TV's is well documented on how to do an RGB input mod, so that's what I'm going to do and then shove it into the cabinet. I do get a slight downgrade in resolution quality because the Big Buck Hunter game board outputted medium resolution, but this tv will only do standard resolution. I never really got to see the D9200 run for more than 5 minutes, so I'll never know what I was missing anyways. I can set the game board to run in standard resolution.

Here's some photos of the new TV running some tests. First one was me learning that I can't run the game in medium resolution (31.5khz) on a consumer TV that can only do 15khz. Second photo is of my PS1 hooked up with an RGB scart cable to the component input. Looks pretty sharp to me. Photos don't do it justice.

Thanks to everyone that attempted to help! 
It was a long road to get here, but unfortunately we'll have to toss this thread into the every-growing category of D9200 repair failures.

[lilshawn]

these have a history of being great when they work and being a nightmare when they don't.

this is the most accurate statement about the Wells Gardner D9xxx series chassis that has ever been written.

I would like to say they are over-engineered... but it's not really. it's... under-engineered overly complicated engineering. it makes for a very temperamental setup that if you can get it immediately when it fails (ideally before) you are fine. the problem lies in the sections that keep running after a section has failed and it causes more failures in related and adjacent circuits. if they had checks in place to detect failures and shut things down, we wouldn't be in the situations we do with them.

[Rocketeer2001]

Wellp, my plot to RGB mod a TV were thwarted. See this post for the horribly long story:
https://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,168676.msg1772715.html#msg1772715

Or a quick summary:
I can't use a TV because I can't output 15khz standard resolution from the Big Buck Hunter game board.

If you bought this game as a kit to retrofit an existing cabinet, you got the board that can switch resolutions. If you bought the whole machine from Incredible Technologies (oh the irony of the name), you got a board that's locked to medium EGA resolution. This makes no sense to me; it has the darn dip-switches on the board, but the jerks software locked it to medium resolution. WHY?!!?

I can't do a TV mod it'll never display the medium res image this stupid game spits out. Looks like I'll have to fix this D9200 since it's the only EGA monitor I got.

My options are:
1. Keep throwing parts at it with every free moment I have
2. Find someone to fix it
3. Get a universal chassis board from ebay (not sure if they have any that do EGA though...)

It's current state is:
When turned on it will rapid fire a bunch of clickity noises for about 30 seconds, then goes silent. No static charge on the screen, and everything is black. If I leave it on too long it'll start burning out components, as I did when I was trying to measure voltages.

[Rocketeer2001]

I called another well known local repair shop today. They told me they were months behind with a backlog of work, and even if they weren't, they don't want to touch the D9200 with a 10ft joystick. Said the digital monitors are a pain to repair.

So either I'm back to fixing it myself, or...I may have found a lead on a WG K7500 chassis. Those output med res for a 27" monitor, so it should work on this tube, right? I'll check my yoke impedence to make sure it matches, but is the k7500 chassis a good one? More reliable than the D9200?

[grantspain]

k7500 will not run on a d9200, yoke is very different
a d9400 or d9800 will run on your tube
the reason no one want to work on these chassis is partly down to the yokes corroding, there is a paint used on these tubes that flakes off into the yoke and rots through the windings and then causes a short. When that happens the chassis will fail every time, sanwa pfx suffer from yoke corrosion as well.
Proving your yoke is ok is the first step, only real way is try a known good chassis. You can remove the yoke and inspect, you would see areas of burn or rot if it has corroded

[Rocketeer2001]

The K7500 was rebuilt, so I asked for the horz and vert impedance numbers and compared them to my yoke and they're way too far apart for this to work, like you said. Probably has something to do with the D9200 being a trisync.

I could ask him if he has any D9400 or D9800's.

If this yoke winding coating rots away and causes a short, wouldn't that show in a resistance or impedance reading?
When the monitor was working I noticed the image was rotated slightly. From past CRT experience I knew you could loosen the neck clamp and rotate the yoke to straight that out, so I tried that and the yoke wouldn't budge. I read somewhere on this forum that these yokes are glued pretty firmly to the tube and can't be removed without wrecking them. Not sure if that's true or not. What's your take?

I may be back on the "use tv as monitor" train. I realized that the Big Buck Hunter game board is essentially just a computer motherboard, and like any other computer you don't switch monitor resolutions using the motherboard, you use the operating system. My theory is the Kit version of this game that you'd buy for retrofitting an old cabinet, came with a slightly different hard drive that had the programming to allow you to use the resolution dip switches on the motherboard.

I just need to find a copy of that game, clone it onto a compact flash card, slap it into the game board and see if I can switch to standard resolution. I suspect it would work.

Anybody got a CHD of the kit version of Big Buck Hunter II Sportsman's Paradise?

[grantspain]

in my experience you will not be able to read a short on a yoke as it tends to manifest itself only when energized
bonded yokes are not impossible to remove but you do need to be extremely careful

I think your best way forwards is to try to locate a working d9200,9400 or 9800 chassis and hope your yoke is ok

[Rocketeer2001]

Hey Grant,

I told the guy that's selling the k7500 my woes and he chimed in that he has a monitor he can pair with the rebuild chassis board. Then I'd have a med-res chassis with a compatible yoke tube. He wanted $500, which is probably fair, just not sure if I want to spend that much and to drive 8 hours each way to get it. I'll consider this the new Plan B.

Someone else pointed out that the hard drive likely won't have any resolution settings on it, nor the eprom chips. They found another blurb in the manual that I failed to notice, which mentions that the low-res setting will only work if I have a special Monitor Scaler Board, whatever that is. The manual also lists the package contents of the 'kit' version of the game, and this special board wasn't included. Can't find any part numbers for that special board or any mention of it anywhere in the community.

Also In summary, different eprom chips won't help me, a different 'kit' game board won't help me, and a different HDD or image won't help me. I need that stupid scaler board that nobody's heard of.

Or, I'm back to tinkering on the D9200 

[Rocketeer2001]

While I pondered what to do with my D9200, I put my attention towards making the game run on a Compact Flash Card instead of the original Hard Drive which sounds very much like it's on its last legs.

I had purchased an Eagle V2.09 EPROM boot chip from ebay, which is required for the CF card to work. I wasn't sure if the chip was legit or not, so one way to find out is to boot up the system with the hard drive disconnected and see what the boot screen says.

Since my D9200 is on the fritz I thought I should at least be able to hook up an old VGA monitor directly to the graphics card on the game board to see the boot dialog. First monitor I tried would only say "OUT OF RANGE" and displayed nothing else. Second monitor did the same thing. The 3rd monitor also said this, but this one was smart enough to tell me what signal it was receiving. This was great, because now I could test those dip switches too!

I discovered the switches do in fact work! Here's my results from playing around with them:
DIP 1=ON   DIP 2=ON (low res) the monitor says:  15.9kHz / 55Hz
and shows a blank screen

DIP 1=OFF  DIP 2=ON (med res) the monitor says:  25.7kHz / 61Hz
and shows a blank screen
 
DIP 1=OFF  DIP 2=OFF (med res with Low res B adjust?) the monitor says: 640x480 / 60Hz
and totally shows the boot screen! It's like it's in VGA mode with these settings.

Using this I could now see on the monitor the version of the boot chip, so I swapped out the original to the 'new' one and sure enough it shows it as the V2.09! We're off to a good start.

I made a CHD copy of my HDD and cloned it onto an 8GB CF card, then slapped that in an IDE to CF Card adapter, hooked up the floppy drive power connector from the power supply, and set the adapter to work in 3.3V mode, and it was totally happy! Game booted up nice and fast!

However, this is where things got interesting. I couldn't see the game, I could only hear it playing over the speakers. After the boot screen is done and the game loads, the monitor goes blank and I get that same "OUT OF RANGE" message I had before, but this time it says the resolution is 25.7kHz / 61Hz.
I thought I was in VGA mode, so what gives?

Having DIP 1 in the OFF position meant it was in medium res, so this time I tried it in the ON position to enable Low Res. I knew I wouldn't be able to see the boot screen, and likely wouldn't see the game either, but the monitor should at least tell me the resolution it's running.
I fire it up and during the boot process the monitor says it's in 15.9Khz / 55Hz. The switches work! The boot sequence is working! This is it, I'm gonna get the game running in low res mode!
Then after the game loaded and I could hear the music playing, the monitor was black and said "OUT OF RANGE" 25.7kHz / 61Hz. What the?

Now I was back on my theory that the operating system was setting the resolution, so if I tried different versions of the game, maybe I'll find one that's from a kit? I downloaded and tried CHD version V2.02.11 , V2.02.09 , V2.02.08 and they all had the same result. What did change was the volume, oddly enough. It became quiet and would make subtle squealing noises, like it was picking up interference. When using the HDD, it isn't nearly as quiet, but does still have some of that interference. Extra odd was the volume buttons in the coin door not having any effect to change the volume...a different problem for another day.

In summary, the dip switches work to change the resolution, but my prior assumption that the data on the hard drive sets the resolution must be correct. What else could counteract the dip switch setting after the game loads?

If I could get this thing to stay in 15.9Khz, then I could use a standard TV with an RGB mod, and that 55Hz vertical refresh wouldn't matter since RGB doesn't care about that.

[Rocketeer2001]

Well I have some new info! I was in contact with a customer service rep at Incredible Technologies and he said that this mythical "Monitor Scaler Board" I need to make BBH2 run in CGA mode was a device made by Averkey, and that was all he knew. I did a web search and found the AVerMedia AVerkey iMicro PC to TV Converter:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/677824-REG/AverMedia_DKEYIMID2_AVerKey_iMicro_PC_Mac_to_TV_Converter.html

It has a VGA output that's supposedly an RGB SCART, but the specs don't say if the output signal is in 15kHz @ 60Hz or something else. I emailed AVerkey to see what they could tell me. If this works, that would mean this is a scan converter, right? Then I could go back to using the TV as a monitor and doing the RGB mod, or at the very least I could get S-video out of it, so that's a step in the right direction.

Not sure if this converter would mess up the light gun functionality though.

[tiger1900]

Hi Rocketeer2001!

I joined this forum to ask you a question.

I just happened to be working on the same D9200 monitor. I fully recapped it, reflowed all the boards and it worked great, but it would start making a arc noise every so often; after heating up, it increased. I found if you take the factory sealed VR901 and turn it counter clockwise (raising the resistance) the arcing stops (this also scales the picture larger... - note: I wrote down the original value before tweaking the pot). This is also demonstrated in one of the YouTube videos you linked.

Reason why I said "it worked great" was because I decided to do some poking around the board. My monitor is outside of a cabinet, and using a temperature gun I clocked the 2SC5144 getting close to 140f (60c). around this temperature I started getting wacky horizontal happenings (4 hours outside of the cabinet in an 85f (29.4c) ambient temperature room).

I decided it needed new thermal paste. So I took some MX-4 I had sitting around, took out the screw... that's when I noticed the screw for my 2SC5144 (Q418) wasn't tight at all. Without desoldering it, I bent the chip out of the way, used an alcohol wipe to remove the old white silicon, which was totally dry and cracking off both sides of the gray silicone pad, caked on some MX-4 on both sides and replaced it, this time cranking down the screw.

I restored power, and I got a squealing sound now from the monitor that was originally dead silent. Hmmm, was there a reason it was on there loose?

I loosened the screw... still squealing, and a burning smell (still in contact with heatsink); I then powered it up with the chip bent away from the heatsink (cleaning position) and the squealing stopped, it was back to normal. Was this a cracked solder joint? (nope).

I tried to put the screw in loose again, the squealing returned (each of these time, the monitor was only powered for a short period before disconnecting). Lastly, I pulled it away from the heatsink again, and when I powered it up, a FLAME shot from the screw hole! (anyone reading this, yes that whole thing was irresponsible, but it could survive momentarily without a heatsink, a flame shouldn't had shot from it... as far as I know).

I thought to myself, maybe I damaged the casing, cranking it down. The heatsink is just a plate, maybe a burr dug through the silicone pad?

After cleaning  the chip, I found where the flame shot out. I felt the heatsink hole and there is a burr around the hole. I wonder if this had anything to do with it getting damaged? I wouldn't think bending the leads would had done it.

Question: Every time you replaced the 2SC5144, did you more than "snug" the screw for Q418 also?

I think I read in a post that you were getting B+ (170v measured from either side R854) and the majority of your components were fine before the catastrophic failure.
Even though this 2SC5144 had a flame shoot from it, it still tests PERFECTLY! Both in a device like the one you shared, and the way Princess Prin Prin demonstrated.

I ordered a new 2SC5144 and will install it later this week. I plan on deburring the hole and just snugging the screw this time. I feel mine was already on its way out, but my mishandling helped it a bit.

Testing the surrounding circuit. Everything is fine. I cut power every time there was an oddity, and only left the screeching going until I could identify the noisy component.

I think, I'm only the 2nd person to work on this chasis. I'm sure I was the first to touch the 2SC5144 since factory.

[Rocketeer2001]

Tiger, sounds like we're on a similar unfortunate journey.

Did your Q418 have a mica sheet insulator between it and the heatsink? As I found out, it's a necessary part to prevent arcing between the component and the heatsink. Even though mine was arcing, upon removal it tested fine so I put it back in. It doesn't arc anymore but the whole monitor doesn't do much anymore other than make clickity noises.

I didn't crank down the screw. I only snugged it down enough so that the back of the part was sitting flush against the heatsink; just enough to make sure it would make a good heat transfer. I wouldn't think it should ever be too loose, otherwise it wouldn't keep Q418 flat against the heatsink.

It's possible your burr was digging into the back of the 418, just enough to cause it to arc, similar to how my screw might have dug into the edge of the hole for my 418 and was arcing. The part tests fine, but maybe it's somehow damaged. I might have the same issue, but unless I know for sure I don't feel like throwing more money at it in parts.

Keep us appraised of your progress!

[lilshawn]

just an FYI, a component can test fine at the low voltages used by a test machine, but fail when full B+ voltage is applied.

if your chassis is giving the old tick tick tick, it's the SMPS's way of telling you it's output overloaded and it's trying over and over to start up. (just in case the first time it was a large, empty capacitor that needed some more time to charge up.) but a shorted component (like a shorted capacitor or diode that is connected to ground) can also make the SMPS do this.

look at your schematic at everything connected to B+ and see what you can remove to "cut off" part of a circuit. often you can "cut" a circuit down into 3 or 4 separate sections or pieces... by removing resistors, inductors, transformers or diodes. if "cutting out" a section, then applying power results in the main SMPS firing up and not ticking, then the section you cut out has the fault. see attached for some examples. your specific application will vary.


use caution when removing components... you are only powering on the chassis long enough to see if the SMPS now has the short/overload removed from circuit. 1 or 2 seconds max. any longer and you risk blowing up more components as systems attempt to work without their support circuits.

[tiger1900]

Thank you @lilshawn for isolating the circuits in the drawing.

I also agree, even though this original 2SC5144 (Q418) tests fine, I'm replacing it (especially since it shot fire). I've had a similar occurrence where a component tested fine outside of a circuit, but not while in operation. @Rocketeer2001 I'm reusing the silicone isolator, after a cleaning, I found it to be in good physical condition.


Latest: Anyone know where I can find a genuine 2SC5144? I'm in the USA and I can't decipher if a seller has an actual genuine supply.

Reason: I just received an order, and comparing these to what was factory installed, there's a huge difference in their quality and appearance. Out of the two received, one tested bad out of the box.

Has anyone used these? Are they fake? Anyone recommend where can I get a couple of good ones?

Thanks for your assistance.

[Rocketeer2001]

Hey Shawn, I had read a bunch of your old posts about trouble-shooting monitors and remember you saying that a repeated clicking sound is the power supply restarting over and over. I just didn't know where to go from there.

I like the concept of narrowing down the problem by disabling parts of the board by cutting off its power, but as you said there is a risk involved. My board doesn't start clicking until at least 3-4 seconds later, so if I waiting that long with your method I'd be doing damage to other components. How would I know if the power supply wasn't clicking as a result of disabling the problem section, or if it wasn't clicking because the power supply section no longer worked? I suppose having a meter hooked up to read the voltages somewhere in the power section would solve that issue.

I should mention that it doesn't just click repeatedly, it also now makes a squeal or chirping noise along with the clicks.

Not sure I'm confident enough to start removing parts and turning on the power. I don't fully understand what all the parts do or their relationship to one another. Then again, this thing is destined for the trash if I try nothing, so what have I got to lose?

Tiger: I was having a hard time finding the samsung HOT part as well, so I went with the Fuji part FJL6920TU from Digikey. It's supposed to be a compatible replacement.

[lilshawn]

typically if the power supply is clicking it's usually one of 3 things...

(in order of likelihood)

HOT's blown
SMPS rail caps old and dried out
vertical IC issue

most of the time your monitor will have been recapped at some point so generally the HOT is the issue, but if it hasn't been re-capped and it still has it's originals, chances are pretty good it's those. but honestly it could be either one.

the other issue that crops up is the vertical drive IC goes bad. you can usually tell if it's gone shorted if the resistors that feed power into it (usually 1 or 2 larger wattage resistors) are discolored or cooked looking. they will often test higher than what they are spec'd at due to the damage they have endured.

since you mentioned that the clicking doesn't start until a few seconds have elapsed, you are probably going to be looking at a system the fires up AFTER the computer boots and gets going. so something in the horizontal drive system or a pincushion compensation circuit...maybe something in the tube drive or more likely the fets switching the caps onto the horizontal (resolution frequency compensation capacitors) maybe even a sub power supply isn't working and it's dragging down the main SMPS.

try unplugging the connectors off the neckboard (leave the high voltage wires and grounds) and see if it sounds like it fires up. (4 or 5 seconds max) if it still goes to overload ticking, might be an issue with a shorted diode (like in the blanking system) or in the resolution frequency capacitor compensation switching system. (about 12 transistors/fets to check/swap/change/test etc)

<rant>

the D9200/D9400 is an obscenely over designed but poorly engineered chassis... it makes fixing them extremely difficult. the main problem being that it has so many independant and separately powered sub-systems. when one system fails, the others typically keep "running" causing more issues, which end up damaging parts in other systems. this makes fixing this chassis extremely difficult since you can damage new parts if you power on the chassis and the chassis isn't near 100% repaired. a still failed component can kill off a chassis in a matter of seconds... and you end up back at square one again.

last D9400 (not a 9200, i know... but near enough) I fixed required a list of 34 parts to repair, and about 8 hours worth of time over about 6 weeks to fix... and I kinda sort of know what i'm doing sometimes maybe but probably not over the last 16 some years i've been doing this... But even I have 3 or 4 D9X00 chassis in the chassis pile that i have given up on at one time or another.

with these monitors... my main advice is, if you are just a hobbyist electronics kinda guy/gal...and something completely obvious doesn't jump out at you, (like and obviously fried component or  you change out the caps or a HOT and it still doesn't work) it is probably worth your time and money to send it off to someone for repair. Even if it takes 6 months to get back to you and costs you 300 bucks, it's still cheaper than the handfuls of parts and handfuls of hair and the weeks if not months of farting around you will lose trying the shotgun approach to only end up with a monitor that STILL doesn't work. Not being a negative nelly, just stating the reality of what these chassis can do to you.

</rant>

[Rocketeer2001]

I replaced every single cap (about 78 of them) and I replaced the HOT twice. It could be blown again, but like you said it might test fine with a low voltage multimeter, yet fail when in the board with full power.

I think the limited trouble-shooting guide from Wells Gardner says this could also be a failed flyback. My understanding is that part is hard to come by these days.

I tested all the large resistors on the whole board and they all work now (I did replace one a while ago, I think).

I'll give that one method a try (unplugging the neck board low volt connections and turning it on), as that's a quick and easy test.

I don't interpret your advice as coming from a 'negative nelly' at all. I've been working on this thing every weekend (and some week days) for almost a year and it just seems to go from bad to worse. You sound like you know your stuff compared to me, and if it's still a struggle for you then my only chance of succeeding would be pure luck.

I tried to get local arcade repair shops to look at it and 5 of them said "NO". 1 place that is well known for being 'the' place to get your arcade fixed said they were too busy and even if they weren't they wouldn't take on this D9200 monitor because digital monitors are a real pain to work on. I tried emailing 3 or 4 online repair places and didn't hear back from any of them.

I'm going to try my 'Plan B', which involves using a TV as the monitor, coupled with a scan converter to downscale the EGA signal to a CGA signal. Might not look perfect, but it'll be better than nothing. And if that doesn't work, there is a guy about 5-6 hours drive away that has a rebuilt K7500 chassis with monitor that I could swap into the cabinet for $500.

[Rocketeer2001]

Another day of disappointments, hurray!

I received in the mail the AVerkey iMicro scan converter. Lets me hook up the VGA 25kHz output from the graphics card on the game board and it'll output a 15kHz on S-video, composite, or SCART. I didn't have the SCART ready (the TV still needs to be RGB modded), so I tried S-video. Image is...fine...kinda muddy and has a slight jitter, but it was working...mostly. The image is shifted to the right a few inches, and cropped. I can center the image back into the screen, but I don't know how to 'uncrop' it.

On top of that, the light gun doesn't work. I pull the trigger, the screen flashes, but no shots are registered. I tried using the composite output instead, and same story. I'm wondering now if this converter is somehow messing up the signal the game board is expecting when you use the gun.

So close...

[lilshawn]

i posted a few years back about the ITs game boards and how the resolutions are not QUITE standard. they are close, but not close enough. not a problem for analog monitors where you can just stretch out or squash the picture coming in to compensate for the oddball resolution, but not close enough for most digital systems.

I had a similar issue with the GBS8200 trying to sync signals from golden tee machines back in the day, which is where the post came from.

i'm going to say the main issue with the gun not picking up is because of the scan converter... its introducing lag that is delaying the frames too much.

the way the system works is a little different from your average light gun game so i'll explain...

you pull the trigger, the computer sends a full white frame... at the beginning of the frame draw, it starts a timer... the monitor is drawing the screen in white, from top left across to the right...line by line...computer is waiting until the gun says it sees light. however long it takes till the gun says YES there is light now is whereabouts on the monitor it is pointed. then the scene is drawn again, once that's done, another full frame white is drawn and it counts again. this happens 10 or so times in a row (should the average be close enough together it could be as low as 5 or as high as 15) the counts are averaged together to get it about as accurate as it can get. that average number is where on the screen it's pointed and the computer acts accordingly.

problem with the scaler is that it introduces lag into the system. this gun signal timing until it knows for sure where your gun is pointed at is all done somewhere in the neighborhood of 160 to 450ms or anywhere from about 1/8th of a second to 1/2 second from the best case to worst case scenario.

so introducing any lag into a system where it's timing a portion of 16ms (how long a crt takes to redraw a single frame)... no matter how small... is going to screw it up. I think VERY likely the scan converter you have there is probably putting 100 or 150ms worth of lag into the frames. even the OSCC which is probably one of the best converters you can get that is often described as zero latency still has 50ms worth of lag...that is still just over 3 full frames... not going to work.

[Rocketeer2001]

Hey Shawn, thanks for the detailed explanation. I was so caught up just trying to get the EGA signal into a CGA signal that I totally neglected how this would affect the light gun.

Guess I'm back to trying to fix the D9200. I'll start by removing the power supply caps and testing them. Maybe one of them has gone bad despite being replaced already.

[lilshawn]

if you are going to gung ho it, disconnect the 190v rail from the SMPS power supply and load it with a bulb, (remove inductors or diodes on the output side of the main 190v and then connect a 60 watt INCANDECANT lightbulb between there and ground) if it doesn't light up, issue with SMPS or other low voltage SMPS circuits... if it does glow, move up the line... "cut" out the horizontal deflection (which also runs on 190v) and see if it powers on. if it does, issue is in deflection. if it does not power on now, issue is in HV/flyback.

remember we only want to run it for a few seconds at a time just to see if the power supply kicks on.

basically all we are doing is trying to isolate where the short is originating from.

alternatively, if you have a bench power supply capable of supplying a good few amps, you could just slam some power into the 190v into the circuit till whatever is shorted heats up (and you can ID it with a temp gun thermometer or IR camera) or blows up in a puff of smoke. not ideal and possibly kill something else at the same time, but it will reveal the culprit.

[Rocketeer2001]

Shawn, as discussed through PM's, I was ready to go gung-ho but then I came across another Big Buck Hunter 2 for sale. It was missing some parts, but what it did have is a different 27" trisync monitor; a Neotec NT-500DX. Per our discussion, it sounded like a more solidly engineered piece of tech and would be easier to fix. Yes, even this monitor was broken...

However, the cost for the whole cabinet (with basically spare parts for my arcade) was low, so I bought it! I've already begun dismantling it to fix the monitor, so the D9200 will be on hold for now. Just looking at the chassis board for the NT-500 is like a breath of fresh air. It's just so well organized and spaced out in comparison.

Anyone following this thread, I might be back to fix the D9200 if the Neotec fails me, but I don't see that happening. I'll report back in either case.

[Rocketeer2001]

One last thing I did before giving up on this monitor was adding a power LED.

I recall reading somewhere in a post that if you had a D9200 with a power indicator LED on it, if it lit up it meant your power section was up and running. I think...I can't find that post again, so someone else will have to confirm. I found on the schematics where the LED would have been, so I wired one in.

I drilled a 5mm hole in the large heat sink at the back of the board to mount a 5mm LED. That way you could see it easily when the board was in the arcade machine.
I ran a positive red wire to J029 and a negative black wire to J030.
I added a resistor to the LED to step down the voltage to 2.1v.

Tossed the board back in the machine and tested it out. It works! Not sure if this officially means my power section is good or at the very least that the 5v rail works. Anyways, maybe this is helpful for someone else with a D9200.

[Rocketeer2001]

I almost forgot to come back for my final report!

After poking around the Neotec for a few days (with some help from lilshawn) we determined I just needed some caps, so I replaced all of them and it fired right up! Much easier to fix than that stupid D9200.

I could finally finish my cabinet rebuild and now I'm spending hours killing imaginary deer.

Thanks to everyone that helped out!

[lilshawn]

 

[Austin Amusements]

We picked up a Big Buck Hunter and I am having the same issue as Rocketeer2001, horizontal collapse. Does anyone know of a replacement chassis?

[tiger1900]

Update: My D9200 that had horizontal collapse, lives again!

There were a few pieces of information I left out. Mine is the 33-inch model (same boards, parts and most measurements, though. just larger tube) and remembering more clearly, I recapped the entire board in 2015 by marking each capacitor and writing the values manually, not by using online lists or by schematic. I missed 4 because I wrote down the wrong values. I skipped replacing those because the originals tested fine. The monitor then went into storage without testing, until last year.

nearly 10 years later, I found my work succeeded... for a few days.

I'm the guy that over-tightened the transistor screw, causing it to arc to the heat sink when I innocently added new thermal compound, then ended up with generic transistors that didn't work. Well...

Thank you to @lilshawn for illustrating the schematic with an operational divide; it made me take a better approach at diagnosis.

Thank you @Rocketeer2001 your journey gave me stuff to try and think about. I look forward to adding a power LED to my arcade cabinet once I figure a good place to lead it outside the cabinet.

and for the information to use a FJL6920TU in place of the 2SC5144 (Q418), a part I was able to source from DigiKey, and not a rando-eBay sale.

And everyone here, helping and documenting information.

I had time tonight (since my last post) to make the repair. The cause of the collapse: Capacitor C417 Value 22uf 250v. One of 4 I missed years earlier. Testing it, the value was off and it had a high ESR rating.

After replacing the transistor (Q417), C417, and the other 3 caps I missed years earlier. The monitor click-clicked-ON!

If anyone needs multimeter measurements with parts in-board, I can get them to you. Hopefully assisting your repair. It may be a month before I have time to put this back in the cabinet, so access for me is easy.

Oh, and thank you to YouTube "Mike's Amateur Arcade Monitor Repair"... the timing of the video where you mentioned to deburr and snug the transistor's screw on one of your videos... that happened to come out after my previous post; I like to imagine my mistake inspired that helpful hint.

Next step, before putting this back in the cabinet, is try the Sega Dreamcast with its light-gun with this beast!

Image Notes:
Pics of new cap, pic of old/original cap, bad ESR reading for that cap, some tube glow, VGA signal for a 25y/o XP computer I could have never imagined honestly entering "2025" into the bios screen, Nokia Monitor Test - great PC CRT monitor calibration software, catching up on Ren and Stimpy via DVD.

Thanks everyone, let me know if I can be of any help.

[lilshawn]

What are your feelings about the Wells Gardner D9000 series of monitors Mr. Horse?

...

No sir, I didn't like it