Neo Geo

[pbj]

First - we must all solemnly swear that we will never piggy back a chip onto an old chip ever again.  Just don't do it.  Don't.  Stay patient and wait for your socket.  That old bios chip will desolder cleanly with patience.  It's not worth that many hours of your life reflowing, reflowing, reflowing and then realizing you don't have the cartridge fully seated and that's why you're still getting a white screen.

By the way - with Unibios and no cartridge you now get a white instead of blue screen!  Would have been nice if they mentioned that somewhere....

Anyway, Unibios installed and working.  Hooray.

Don't piggy back chips.

So, I'm having this weird issue with my 161 in 1 cartridge.  Some of the games work perfectly.  Some of them have weird vertical lines through the image.  These weird vertical lines even extend to the Unibios boot screen and Neo Geo boot screen.  The games play fine but have weird lines.  There seems to be no rhyme or reason to it.  Samurai Shodown 1 & 2 - lines.  Shodown 3 & 5 - no lines.  Crossed Swords - lines.  Puzzle Bobble - no lines.  I read through every post on the Neo-Geo tech support forum with the word "vertical" in it.  Only things I see have the same effect on every game and not just selective like this.  My cartridge connector is gleaming clean... but I did drive all over the damn place trying to find electronics cleaner.  Third store was the charm.



 

[pbj]

Don’t do this.  Just don’t.  I cleaned it up a little after this was taken but don’t do this.



Some pics of the weird glitches that only affect some games…

[nitrogen_widget]

I searched Neo Geo lines on screen and AES lines on screen.

I don't know how different the hardware is but it appears general consensus is rom chip issue.
usually a bad trace.
sometimes under a chip unfortunately.

[lilshawn]

perhaps a bad solder joint on one of the flatpack chips.

looks like a single pin or trace issue. maybe video pallet ram or something?

https://wiki.neogeodev.org/index.php?title=Palette_RAM

i'm not sure how the sprites are laid out (if its a first bit error or somewhere else in the other 7 bits mid-stream.) IE i can't tell if its the edge of a sprite or the middle since they are all tiled. and i don't know how big they are.

try pressing down on one of the flatpacks and booting it and see if it goes away when pressing on any of them. maybe a pin has just lifted up...it's common in gameboy advance games

https://wiki.neogeodev.org/index.php?title=Category:Chips

see if one of these looks like it might cause a single bit error written to ram and causing the output you see

[pbj]

On the motherboard or on the cartridge?  It’s hard for me to believe that Crossed Swords and Capcon vs SNK are utilizing motherboard chips that Samurai Shodown and Magical Drop 3 aren’t. 

[lilshawn]

i'm thinking mainly the motherboard since its across multiple carts.

[nitrogen_widget]

On the motherboard or on the cartridge?  It’s hard for me to believe that Crossed Swords and Capcon vs SNK are utilizing motherboard chips that Samurai Shodown and Magical Drop 3 aren’t.

thread where people have line issue with only some games.
https://www.neo-geo.com/forums/index.php?threads/aes-graphic-glitches-vertical-line-syndrome-now-w-pics.181876/

[Malenko]

i'm thinking mainly the motherboard since its across multiple carts.

its across multiple games on 1 multi cart.  I think its more likely cheap components or bad ROMs on the bootleg cart.

[pbj]

Yeah, it's various games on the multicart.  Some with the lines, some without.  Seems to be no rhyme or reason to it.  The behavior is consistent with the glitched games no matter what I do.  Anyway, I'll see what the seller wants to do about it, I guess. 

Pick and Mix works with the cartridge, which is a pleasant surprise.  It's actually remarkable how bad the documentation is for the Unibios.

Anyway, hold down select and boot up the system.  When you get to the title screen, let select go.  Press and hold it again to pull up the game list.  Pick your game and hit A.  If you want to change games, pull up the Unibios menu (Select + Start or Start + ABC) and select the soft reboot option.  Hold down select while it resets and you're back in business.  If you leave the game in attract mode, it will cycle through to different games automatically and play their attract modes.  Pretty cool, actually.

 

[pbj]

Yeah, so just hold down select for a few seconds and you get the pick and mix menu.  No need to do a soft reset.

 

[pbj]

Got some 3D printed parts from PL1 today.

Here’s the translucent reset button with a flashlight laying inside the case and pointed at it.  I really need to decide on an LED and just go with it.



And here’s the octagon gate installed.  I didn’t test it before I put everything back together.  Oops.  Can’t hit diagonals.  I’ll crack the stick open again and adjust the switch levers, but this definitely does not have the issues that chopper experienced.




A guy on discord that actually does a lot of repairs tells me my graphics issue is a bad connection from the bios chip to one of the downstream chips.  I’m skeptical but it’s worth a shot.

 

[PL1]

Here’s the translucent reset button with a flashlight laying inside the case and pointed at it.

Looks good.   

And here’s the octagon gate installed.  I didn’t test it before I put everything back together.  Oops.  Can’t hit diagonals.  I’ll crack the stick open again and adjust the switch levers, but this definitely does not have the issues that chopper experienced.

Before you adjust the levers, try the flat blue plate with no microswitch nubs.

That's this model that Chopper linked to earlier with an extra 1.5mm travel for hitting a diagonal.

Chopper model print:
- 19.62mm point-to-point on octagon (1.5mm more from the center to the gate)
- 18.45mm flat-to-flat on octagon (1.475mm more from the center to the gate)
- 2.16mm thick plate (0.08mm thinner plate)

While you've got the stick cracked open, what is the diameter of the part of the actuator that engages the restrictor plate on your stick?


Scott

[pbj]

This morning I buzzed out every connection on the bios chip to the downstream chips.  I did not find any breaks.

Opened up the 161 cart and didn’t see any obvious problems.  Pushing on chips and stuff didn’t change anything.

I think at this point I’m going to have to buy a legit copy of one of the glitchy games and see if the problem persists there. 

For now, I put it all back together and I’ll enjoy the ones that work.

Pinball led soldered in and pointing at PL1s translucent reset button.

 

[nitrogen_widget]

for historical purposes.

[Zebidee]

lol, @nitrogen_widget, back in the era when games producers assumed only men (well, boys) could get into computer games.

There is an implied assumption that the gamer would be incapable of snaring a hot chick, so the ad tries to make them feel better about it by further implying that if they get a Neo-Geo they will then have a monster penis (with a face and drool!) that would require at least three hands to properly masturbate.

Geez   

[pbj]

Yeah, so that’s Sharon Stone’s face shopped onto someone else’s body.  And nobody has ever proven that ad is real.

 

I spent some of Nephasth’s money on Samurai Shodown 2.  That will let me compare a real cart to my bootleg and will settle the question of where the issue lies.

Also picked up Art of Fighting 2 pretty cheap.  I’m treating it as a conversion candidate.

 

[pbj]

Some of that sweet, sweet Genesis bootleg money well spent arrived today from Japan.



Samurai Shodown 2 on the legit cart has none of the graphical glitches present on my 161 in 1, so at least I know now that the console is good.  It hilariously came with some neo geo cd version manual.  I can’t read it anyway so whatever.

I did try my hand at a bootleg manual for Art of Fighting 2.  Result was quaffable but far from transcendent.

[KenToad]

I've often wondered what it would be like to invest in a Neo Geo system, as I've never seen one outside of a convention. This has been a great read. Thanks so much for sharing.

Are you going to get a replacement multicart?

[pbj]

Nah, I'll just hang onto the one I have.  Seller won't give me a return shipping label and spending $50 to return a $100 multicart feels like throwing good money after bad.  Frankly, once you start facing the realities of AES cartridge costs, you'll be damn thankful that more than one game works correctly.  As it stands, everything is playable but a good portion of the games have vertical lines in the graphics.  In Crossed Swords, it's minor, and in the King of Fighters games it's really bad.  Plus it works with the Unibios PickNMix so meh.

Before I bought one, I had only ever seen an AES in the wild twice.  Once at Incredible Universe where I got to play Art of Fighting.  They literally had the console and controllers bolted down to the shelf, and directly on the side of the TV.  So you had to stand a foot away from the screen and twist sideways to play.  It was the worst setup I've ever played.

Other time was at the Houston arcade show. 

It's been hilarious to play through some of these games with the Unibios cheats.  Legend of Success Joe may be the worst game I've ever played.  The second to last boss is extremely difficult to beat even with infinite health and time.  Samurai Shodown 2 has a cheat that lets you play as the final boss.  I don't think it's possible otherwise.

 

[Malenko]

And nobody has ever proven that ad is real.

The only neogeo ads I remember were one with a hotdog and one with a big dog barking at you or something.

[lilshawn]

The only neogeo ads I remember were one with a hotdog and one with a big dog barking at you or something.

i just remember them being stupid expensive and me and all my friends would pine for the day when we could buy one.

[pbj]

Don't let your dreams be dreams, bro.  Grab that sausage with both hands and shove it down your throat.

For all their graphical powerhouse boasts, the non-fighting games are shallow and unpolished as hell.


Anyway, turns out I'm not terminally ill, which is nice.  The Neo Geo seemed only a little more expensive and like far less drama than two chicks at the same time, so I stand by my choice.


 

[lilshawn]

i got a neo-geo mini. i'm good with that for now.

playing on the machine itself is a 4/10, but hook it up to a TV with the HDMI and plug in a controller and it goes up to a 7...ish.

i heard you can hack the firmware and dump new games in it... so that could be fun.

[Malenko]

i got a neo-geo mini. i'm good with that for now.

I just play neogeo on this guy


the option to consolize the mobo is always an option when I run out of CRTs. The important take away is that James is gonna be around for the foreseeable future.

[Zebidee]

@lilshawn, classic, that ad demonstrates how the computer games sector failed to accept that their market could be larger than male incels.





Why would women want to play games when faced with marketing like that?

Computer games makers refused to invest in making games that appeal to females and refused to invest in marketing them beyond their target (young males), believing it would be like casting their seeds onto barren ground.

This was the mindset and it was a real problem with the whole industry in the 80's/90's, which also contributed to there being very few women being interested in IT & computing as a career.

Things have turned around a lot since then and now there are lots more female gamers out there, good thing for everyone. Things have also improved at the professional levels, though female techs are still rare.

[pbj]

Must you bloviate in every thread on this forum?  Did that ad truly need to be replicated in full size 4 posts down from its original appearance?

Look at the contributions of other members on this thread - sharing stories of Neo Geo, posting photos of modifications they've done, 3D printing, trouble shooting, and then it's you ranting about 90s marketing pushing women away from IT. 

I appreciate that you are relatively new here, but we generally keep it on topic on threads outside of Everything Else. 

 

[Zebidee]

Must you bloviate in every thread on this forum?  Did that ad truly need to be replicated in full size 4 posts down from its original appearance?

lol, why are you "ranting" at me? Did I touch a sensitive nerve or something? I didn't accuse you anything and have only been supportive to you.

I reduced the size of the image. Note that I'm not the one who posted it in the first place.

Look at the contributions of other members on this thread - sharing stories of Neo Geo, posting photos of modifications they've done, 3D printing, trouble shooting, and then it's you ranting about 90s marketing pushing women away from IT. 

It was definitely not a rant. I made a important point that needs making. I'll continue making points that need to be made, so that they don't get buried and forgotten. I can't promise that you will always like them.

The standards you walk past are the standards you accept. You always have the choice to just not say anything.

I appreciate that you are relatively new here, but we generally keep it on topic on threads outside of Everything Else. 

Don't patronise me. I've been an active member of this forum for over 15 years. We talk about all kinds of stuff and yes, it IS on topic because that ad was posted here.

I made my point in the earlier post, take it or leave it. Move on.

[KenToad]

I'd always assumed that that ad with the giant cock monster was legit and even have potentially false memories of seeing it in a gaming mag back in the day. 

She's definitely not as hot as Sharon Stone, though. Looks a bit like the chick from Corpse Killer.

[bobbyb13]

That SNK ad is hilarious.
I really wish I wasn't so damn busy with two dozen other things I can't avoid right now!
Hopefully I'll have time for jumping this train before the progenitors have shifted focus.

[bobbyb13]

I realize that once again my noob is showing with this question but am I delusional in thinking that the same carts that work in this beast also work in the 4 slot MVS board for SNKs upright cabinet?!

I may be on the edge of another precipice as a gent I just met here has a spare 4 slot that I may be bartering for soon.

May have wished too hard on tilting at windmills alongside pbj.
 

[pbj]

The console and arcade boards use different cartridges.  There are converters to use the much cheaper arcade carts on a home console.  You would be insane to go the other direction these days.  All revisions of the roms are present on both types of carts, and your experience is determined by your bios.  The Unibios allows you to run the home and arcade motherboards as any variation of the hardware, selectable on the fly.  The home versions have limited continues but tend to allow more progress saving.  You can also generally start on the level you lost your last continue on, so the limited continues on the home games are just a mild annoyance.  You have to buy an external memory card for saves, but it’s just a PCMCIA SRAM card which are universal but not commonly used.  Very expensive, too.  I just bought some homebrew FRAM cart off Arcade Projects that has like 16 times the capacity and two different memory banks.

 

[bobbyb13]

Ah... the Unibios thing finally explained.
Thanks pbj.
I'll need to look down the Arcade Projects rabbit hole also then it appears.
My island companion Falkenhawk did quite generously give me that 4 slot board so I have learned a little about the MVS world as a result recently.
Holy ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- are there a lot of games here.
Whoooiee are some expensive and damn are some silly fun.
I don't know what stimulants the designers were on, but Metal Slug 3...?
Didn't realize I could love being a zombie barfing arcs of fire.

There is a bloke in the UK I need to look to who repros a bunch of ancillary items crucial to a legit cabinet build (for those going that route I suppose) and the progress saving ability makes this all seem quite a bit more fun with some games.

I got a few originals and a 161 cart (which seems to play fine so far) to try out games that looked fun but either seem unobtanium or are $100s-$1000s for originals.
I will do my part to hold out hope for another round of Darksoft MVS carts otherwise.

And happy to read that you aren't terminally ill of course.
Health scares really suck.
Passing on the two chicks thing though...?