Ikegami tm 14-19r

[gurbzs]

Hi, I'm testing a Ikegami tm 14-19R monitor.
When using generic arcade preset (vmmaker) the screen can not be vertical centered (to high).
When using PAL preset it works better, looks like the only preset with a decent centered screen.

Is this PAL preset the way to go or are there better ways to calibrate the screen?

Info:

http://www.ikegami.com/br/products/sdtv/tm1419.html

Grtz,

Gurbzs

[gurbzs]

And: when in PAL preset the music is not sync which is probably not surprising.

Any thoughts?

[Calamity]

That set just probably needs a longer vertical back porch. Create a custom preset based on generic or arcade_15. Then increase the vertical back porch value. I'm assuming you're on CRT Emudriver 2.0.

[gurbzs]

No, testdrive is with my trusty old ati 7000 ultimarc and xp driver 6.11 or 6.5.
You mean tweaking vmm preset right? not GM.ini

[Calamity]

No, testdrive is with my trusty old ati 7000 ultimarc and xp driver 6.11 or 6.5.
You mean tweaking vmm preset right? not GM.ini

If that's the case, just edit the preset in mame.ini. Set "monitor custom", and grab the desired crt_range option right from here: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,116023.0.html

Then tweak the v. back porch as I said.

[gurbzs]

Thanx calamity, i'll try that as soon as possible.
(Just tore down the massive triple 27" monitor setup, room got too crowdy)

[gurbzs]

I have some results on the older system, I can raise vbp to 1.600 but it's not enough, screen is still up and not centerd.

What I do not understand is the following: I connected the monitor to the newer system and all I get is rolling screen at 640x480 60p of 50i and when using Arcade Osd the screen is black/red and garbled.

It seems that the old ultimarc card is the only card that delivers right input for this monitor so far.
How can I adjust this?

The newer system uses ati hd 4870's.

[gurbzs]

Has this anything to do with green on sync?

Specs:


General
Input Voltage
1) Nominal Value; 100-120/200-240 VAC, single phase
2) Tolerance; ± 10%
3) Frequency: 50/60 Hz
Input Power
Approx. 150 W at nominal line voltage
Input Signals
1) Video Inputs
Encoded NTSC or PAL
Composite (1.0 Vp-p nominal) or Non-composite (0.7 Vp-p nominal), positive, three (3) each
R/G/B
Non-composite (0.7 Vp-p nominal), positive, one (1) set
(requires separate external sync or Green on sync)
Component (Y, R-Y, B-Y)
Y:
VS 1.0Vp-p positive polarity
V 0.714Vp-p positive polarity, setup 7.5%
R:
Y; 0.7Vp-p 75% for color bar signal
B:
Y: 0.7Vp-p 75% for color bar signal
Connection
Bridging BNC connectors, high impedance
Return Loss 46 dB (100 KHz-4.2 MHz)
2) Composite Sync Input
EIA Standard RS-170A
4 Vp-p:t2 Vp-p nominal, negative, one (1) each
Connection
Bridging BNC connectors, high impedance
Return Loss 40 dB at 5 MHz
3) Remote Control (via 10 pin connector)
Video input selector (A/B/C), sync mode (Int/Ext), Color/Mono Selection, Tally (On/Off)

Vertical Sweep Rate
Nominal 59.94 Hz (NTSC), 50 Hz (PAL)
Horizontal Sweep Rate
Nominal 15.7342 KHz (NTSC), 15.625 KHz (PAL)
Scanning
525 lines/frame (NTSC), 625 lines/frame (PAL)
60 fields/second (NTSC), 50 fields/second (PAL)
30 frame/second (NTSC), 25 frame/second (PAL)
2:1 interlace
Display Device
1) In-Iine gun, shadow mask, high resolution CRT
TM14-19RH/RP: 13V (37 cm) Dot trio pitch 0.31mm

2) Chromaticity
Coordinates
    USA Standard   EBU
X   Y   X   Y
RED   0.630   0.340   0.640   0.330
GREEN   0.310   0.595   0.290   0.600
BLUE   0.155   0.070   0.150   0.060
Tolerance ± 0.005

3) Brightness
0-60 Ft-L less than 1% size change

4) Resolution
TM14-19RH/RP: 700TV lines (at Center)

Video Signal System
1) Frequency Response (measured with aperture gain 0, 3.58 MHz (NTSC), 4.43 MHz (PAL) notch filter removed): 50 Hz-10 MHz: flat within -3-+1 dB referred to 100 KHz at 20 Vp-p output level

2) Pulse Response (at each R/G/B amplifier output with 0.05psec. rise time square wave video input):
Rise Time <0.1psec. with 250 KHz square wave
Overshoot <10% with 250 KHz square wave
Sag <1% with 60 Hz (NTSC), 50 Hz (PAL) square wave
3) Chrominance Rejection Ratio (Aperture OFF, 3.58 MHz (NTSC)/4.43 MHz (PAL) notch filter ON)
Less than -24 dB at color bar signal

4) Aperture Correction
Correction Characteristics
Waveform of overshoot of 2T pulse appears symmetrically with 4.43 MHz (PAL)/3.58 MHz (NTSC) notch filter ON
Frequency Response (referred to 100 KHz)
60 Hz-100 KHz: <± 1 dB
1 MHz: >+2 dB
2.5 MHz: >+6 dB
3.58 MHz (NTSC) 4.43 MHz (PAL) < -15 dB
5) Linearity
Differential gain <3% from video input terminal to each R/G/B output terminal for 30 Ft-L output

6) Black Level Stability
Black Level varies <1% when APL is changed from 10% to 90%

7) Noise (at each R/G/B in active scan period)
Coherent Noise: < -46 dB
Hum Noise: < -55 dB
Others: < -55 dB
Color Signal System
1) Chroma Signal Frequency Response
(measured at chroma output test point when video sweep signal of 1.0 Vp-p composite is supplied at video input, with 3.58 MHz (NTSC), 4.43 MHz (PAL) reference):
2.3 MHz (NTSC)/3.1 MHz (PAL)-4.9 MHz (NTSC)/5.7 MHz (PAL) ± 1 dB
2) R-Y, B-Y Signal Frequency Response
(measured at R- Y, B-Y check test point when video sweep signal of 1.0 Vp-p composite is supplied at video input, with 100 KHz reference ):
3) Frequency Range of 3.58 MHz (NTSC)/4.43 MHz (PAL)
Subcarrier Oscillator
Circuit 3.579545 MHz (NTSC)/4.43361875 MHz (PAL)
4) Phase Error (NTSC only)
Less than 2° for each of the following individual conditions a) Burst frequency ± 10 Hz
b) Burst level change +6, -12 dB
c) When 25 mV ('-28 dB) white noise appears on the video signal
d) When the ambient temperature changes by 10°C
5) Demodulation Axis Phase Difference
90° ± 1°
6) Delay Correction
Delay time correction error between luminance and R- Y, B-Y is less than 50 nsec.

7) Subcarrier Leakage
Rejection ratio of residual subcarrier by the dE!modulation is less than 25 dB

Unity Chroma
Voltage difference of each R/G/B output is ± 3% on standard color bar signal input

9) Color Killer
Automatic operation when burst level is less than 5 IRE

10) Effect at Place of Burst Signal
Phase change of subcarrier is within 3° if time relation of sync and burst blanking is in accordance with FCC requirements (NTSC only)

11) Adjustments
a) Chroma Amplitude Variable Range: More than ± 6 dB of luminance to color signal ratio
b) Color Phase Variable Range Subcarrier phase is variable by ± 15°
Sync System
1) Sync Stability shall be met for the following conditions:
Internal Sync
a) Video input level change of :1:6 dB from the rated value to 1.0 Vp-p
b) Video amplitude change of 0-120% and sync levels greater than -6 dB (0.15V-0.3V sync)
External Sync Input: 1-8 Vp-p
2) Vertical Hold
Oscillator Frequency The free running frequency of the vertical oscillator shall be variable between 45 Hz and 65 Hz ( controlled by Vertical Hold Control )
Holding Range Vertical Hold will be maintained between 50 Hz and 59.94 Hz
Stability of the free running frequency shall be within 2 Hz over the variable range of 45-65 Hz
The interlace ratio shall be :t5% at a[ positions of the Vertical Hold Control
3) Horizontal Hold
Oscillator Frequency The free running frequency of the horizontal oscillator shall be variable between 13.75 KHz and 17.75 KHz
Holding Range Pull-in range: ± 300 Hz Holding range: ± 1 KHz
Stability of the Free Running Frequency Stability of the free running frequency shall be within ± 100 Hz over the variable range of 13.75 KHz and 17.75 KHz
AFC Time Constants
Three (3) Horizontal Time Constants shall be provided
Front Panel
a) 2 msec.
b) Variable 0.5 msec./7 msec
Internal 0.5 msec./7 msec.
Deflection System
1) Amplitude H: ± 8%, V: ± 30%

2) Scanning
NORMAL Overscan is 1% of CRT effective area at aspect ratio of 4:3
UNDER Four corners to be visible within boundary of effective area at aspect ratio of 4:3
16.9 Scan (option)
3) Geometric Distortion
Axis Distortion
Linearity: Less than 0.5% of picture height
Geometry: Less than 1.5% of picture height
Quadrilateral Distortion
At raster corner, vertical shift is less than 1 %
Convergence
Center (within circle of 80% of picture height) Less than 0.3 mm, Corners (outside area of picture center)
Less than 0.5 mm
Picture Centering Adjustment
Horizontal More than 10 mm
Vertical More than 10 mm
4) Blanking Period
Horizontal Retrace Less than 9 micro sec.
Vertical Retrace Less than 1 msec.
5) Hum Fluctuation
Fluctuation and jitter of picture screen is less than 0.2 mm (0.07%) for hum noise

6) High Voltage
Tolerance
TM14-19RH/RP: 25KV ± 500V
Regulation
Within :± 2% over the range of 0-450 microA referred to 150 microA
Ambient Temperature
0°C-40°C (32°F-104°F)
90% or less relative humidity (non-condensing)
Weight
TM14-19RH/RP: approx. 27 kg (59 lbs.) (with cabinet)

[buttersoft]

No, the problem is not related to Sync-on-Green. But try connecting everything up and hitting the int/ext sync button anyway.

The first PC is obviously outputting 15kHz. Are you certain the 2nd PC is as well? You have installed crt_emudriver for that card? And run VMMaker, etc as per the guide for the 4000 series card on Eiusdemmodi? http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?id=298

If so, the sync is probably slightly out of range on the second graphics card; either due to bad combination, or the adjustment of the set. Does the set have a v-hold or h-hold knob? It probably does not, in which case...

You'll be outputting an RGBHV signal over a VGA connector, which gets turned into RGBS somehow to go into the monitor, yes? As in, you should have 4 separate BNC connections going into the monitor.

How are you doing the above? What cables and/or devices are you using? How is the sync combined, and can you alter that? For my little Ikegami, Viletim's Arcade Sync Combiner works fine. Though I'd add a resistor between the diode and the computer, and then another between the output and the monitor. That will limit the current and voltage. See how high you can get the value to be in each case, and still get sync.



It might even be that there is no sync combination going on, and the first graphics card is outputting C-Sync over VGA pin 13, where the second card isn't. But that's getting a bit more esoteric, and is something you normally have to set up in CCC.

[buttersoft]

And regarding vertical position... If the modeline adjustment to V-back-porch doesn't go far enough, there will either be a service menu on screen or a trimpot inside the set that allows you to adjust V-pos. It's probably going to be the latter.

I have this problem too on my little 10" Ikegami, but I haven't got around to trying to correct it yet.

[gurbzs]

Thanx buttersoft,

Maybe a fresh install is what I need here.
In the mean time I tried 3 systems:

-ati 7000 based;
-ati x600 based;
-ati hd 4890 based.

Yeah: all systems pump out 15khz in buckets, all tested and tried.
I switched even dvi-vga adapters, no luck.

As said: in this case the old ultimarc card displays from bios boot till windowsscreen.
The connection is 4 bnc, I also tried combining green and horizontal/vertical sync on one bnc.

I'll try your suggestions tonight, thanx again and any input is welcome.

[buttersoft]

I should maybe add that the point was the sync levels might be different on different cards, and might need to be combined differently. That circuit I posted works on my TM10-17R, but won't work on some of my PVM's without modification.

But reading your post... You're saying the Arcade VGA card (which one is it?) works at 15kHz during post, but then gets scrambled in windows? That sounds more like an issue with your crt_emudriver install. Definitely try a fresh install of windows, then set up crt_emudriver again.

[gurbzs]

The arcadevga card is ok and functions as it should, I can view the bios boot, windows and games on the Ikegami.
I definitely should tinker with a fresh install of drivers or even OS.

But the fact that the arcadevga, orginal (?) based on 7000 chipset AGP, works and no other standard ati card does, is surprising.

[Calamity]

Sounds like your other cards are outputting positive sync for whatever reason. If possible, switch to CRT Emudriver 2.0. Even if you're in XP, use the 2.0 tools. Sync polarities are properly handled now.

[gurbzs]

I'll try that first, the 2.0 tools with XP.
Then maybe win7 with crt emu 2.0, curious about that.
Thanx again!

[gurbzs]

Results xp and 2.0 tools.

I changed polarities (0,0, - 1,1, - 0,1, etc) in a few presets with vmm but no luck.
The screen responded differently but still moving garbled desktop picture.

[buttersoft]

If the cards are part-working, just not in windows, it's probably not the sync levels, so ignore most of what i posted above.

I'd say jumping to a fresh install of win 7 and starting over from one of Calamity's guides might be next...?

[Calamity]

If you're mixing H & V sync lines by means of a T into a single BNC, then this definitely might be an issue. That is not guaranteed to work (although I have my PVM connected like that and it works fine). So it'd make sense what buttersoft pointed, maybe the sync levels of your old AVGA are just slightly different and once mixed they turn out to be accepted by your monitor, while this doesn't happen with the newer cards. Because if you have checked that the newer systems are actually outputting 15 kHz just fine, and made sure the polarities are negative, then the issue must be somwhere else (and I'd be surprised if your old AVGA was outputting c-sync).

[gurbzs]

I only have vga-5 bnc cables and t-pieces and none worked so far.
Therefore I ordered a vga-4 bnc, wanted one anyway.
Other suggestions? This looks like a hardware situation.

Here are some pics.

[donluca]

I STRONGLY recommend you putting at least 1kΩ resistors in line on each sync before merging them. That's how I have them wired and work great on my BVM 14M4DE

---H-Sync---1kΩ---+-----Sync-out
                             |
---V-Sync---1kΩ----+

[gurbzs]

Thanx all! I'm not technical at all (soldering stuff ) but if this is the solution then I'll make it happen.
Maybe a stupid question: this monitor accepts also component signal.
I have zero experience with component: is vga-component cable an alternative?

Grtz,

Gurbz

[buttersoft]

maybe the sync levels of your old AVGA are just slightly different and once mixed they turn out to be accepted by your monitor, while this doesn't happen with the newer cards.

Give he said the cards all work to show the bios (Atom-15, i presume?) at 15kHz in sync, but then scramble in windows, and *if* his crt_emudriver install is working properly...  does this mean the Atom-15 bios delivers sync at different levels to windows? Is this resolution dependent, or possibly card dependent? Is it something that crt_emudriver could change? Or that VMM could set via an options box, if you wanted?

I have zero experience with component: is vga-component cable an alternative?

Probably not, no. It will only work if, either the cable is an active converter, not just a passive adapter; or if your video card can output component video. The latter was normally done via an S-Video port, not the VGA port, but the fact these cables exist must mean they have some use...?

True RGB is better than component, but only slightly. You could check if your graphics cards can out put in component over the VGA port, or VGA capable port? Google might be some help there If you can get it to work, it should be compatible with crt_emudriver, being an analogue encoding done by the card itself? Calamity might know more, there.

RGB can be a little more functional though. Once you've fought your way through, it opens up the possibility of using it on older consoles like the PS1 and Genesis that don't output component. And all Arcade hardware uses RGB. Also, all colour CRT's use RGB internally. I guess I'm trying to say that learning to do it is worthwhile

Try the circuit donluca posted up, and try mine (reading the description as to how it differs from Eviltim's picture. It *should* work as pictured, though, for testing). The best way to test things is with a breadboard, too. Though you will have to solder some BNC-to-2 wire breakouts so you can connect to the breadboard and just plug-in different configurations

Before anything though, I'd really recommend a fresh install of Win 7 and then following Calamity's guide for the 4350 card - all with your 4870 card only in the system. Make sure to follow it to the letter! http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?id=298

[Calamity]

Give he said the cards all work to show the bios (Atom-15, i presume?)

I'd say he didn't say that, did he?

[gurbzs]

Hi, I tried the fresh install yesterday, win7.
No luck, I pasted some pics.

I don't see myself soldering stuff so I probably gonna ask someone.

[Calamity]

Can you check whether it's actually outputting 15 kHz now?

[gurbzs]

Ok, 15khz output.
I atttached a few pictures,

256x256
512x512

[gurbzs]

Then exact same output to ikegami

[buttersoft]

So, as i understand it...
You have video card #1, whichever one it is, that will output at 15kHz and show up on your backup monitor, and will also give a stable picture on the ikegami.
You have video card #2, whichever one, that will output at 15kHz and show up on your backup monitor, but *won't* give a stable picture on the ikegami. And you want it to.

Is that right?

What is the monitor you're using the in the first two pics, the one that works with video card #2? I assume you're using the exact same cables for the Ikegami? In which case I'd say the sync isn't being combined right. How are you combining it now?





And apologies to Calamity. I thought Gurbzs implied he had the BIOS working for this card, but then it craps out in windows. I'm still not entirely clear on which of his setups works, and where.

[gurbzs]

Thanx for reaching out Buttersoft, I'm being a bit staccato here, I 'll you some more lines of text.

The video card that works with the ikegami is the ultimarc avga based on ati 7000 chipset.
I started using it again when I discovered groovymame, say 1.5 years ago, I tried to emulate buggy boy back then on three 27" crt for good fun. Let's call this system 1.
As you may know: this avga card boots in 15khz mode, no other card does that to my knowledge, except when treated with the atom15 utility.

After succesfull testing buggy boy on three screens I noticed a serious lack of power/juice for a few mame games so I went on looking for a faster system and compatible cards. Nothing more fun right?
So I ended up with this double ati hd 4890 system. It took me a while to get that working but this system 3 now.

So yes, system 3 is a 4 output double ati hd 4890 (because of the gm rave reviews) setup.

What you're viewing here is card #1 outputting 1920x1080 @output 1 (gold dvi) and 256x256 or 512x512 @output 2 normal dvi.

To the point: I switched cables and did not see any change, that''s maybe because I always use a t- piece for combining h-sync/v-sync. I ordered a 4 bnc cable but I don't have my hopes up yet. The soldering 1 kohm solution is also not guaranteed to work because, and here come the big question: how is it posssible that the ati 7000 avga outputs a decent signal for the ikegami while it uses same vga-bnc cable and t- piece?

[Calamity]

how is it posssible that the ati 7000 avga outputs a decent signal for the ikegami while it uses same vga-bnc cable and t- piece?

Because it does it by chance. The levels are probably a bit different because it's an ancient card.

[gurbzs]

Wohahaha
Ancient? How can you say that?!
Ok, the good news is that a homemade cable is in the workz.
Keep y'all posted.

[Calamity]

Wohahaha
Ancient? How can you say that?!

That gpu has 15 years my friend. See the phones that rocked at the time: http://nokiamuseum.info/category/launching-year/2001/

[gurbzs]

I still own my nokia communicator 9300i, no suprise.
Nice touch, a mobile phone museum, to illustrate the time lapse.

In the mean time I don't see that much modelines appearing in the new win7/crt_emu 2.0.
I can get 15 khz on output 2, card #1 4890.
I do not see the modes yet on othe outputs/displays in windows display properties.

And: is it possible to start gm on display 2 instead of 1?
Or: have the menu on 1920x1080 lcd and the game on screen 2?

[buttersoft]

In the mean time I don't see that much modelines appearing in the new win7/crt_emu 2.0.
I can get 15 khz on output 2, card #1 4890.
I do not see the modes yet on othe outputs/displays in windows display properties.

You mean, they're not in the ArcadeOSD modeline list? Have you looked at the files VMM generates the modelines from? Have you restricted your monitor parameters accidentally? Have you run VMM twice with different files to make sure you get the super resolutions?

I wouldn't use the windows display properties boxes until you have everything working elsewhere.

And: is it possible to start gm on display 2 instead of 1?
Or: have the menu on 1920x1080 lcd and the game on screen 2?

Open ArcadeOSD and note the name of the monitor you want to show GM on (something like //Display2// or whatever it is), then change the "Display" variable in the MAME.ini. I think that's it. It's certainly possible.

If you edit/create individual game .ini's, you might be able to use the lcd for the menu, CRT for games. Not sure if switchres would be happy with that, but try it...?

[gurbzs]

Thanx, I understand the screen option now and the modes are all there.
The wait is for a fresh baked cable.

[gurbzs]

The vga-4bnc cable got delivered AND the freshly soldered 1kohm resistors cable.

Results are disappointing, a rolling screen.
Please can somebody take a look at the monitor specs above
Maybe there's a clue there.
I'm also thinking about using an old extron sync stripper, maybe that's a solution.

[gurbzs]

Link youtube

[buttersoft]

You still haven't answered the above question directly - does the Ikegami work with other devices/cards to give a stable picture? assuming the answer to that is "yes"... (if the answer is "no" we've all been wasting our time )

My last guess is that the vertical sync is swallowing the horizontal sync... I've had monitors that wouldn't work if the syncs were mixed with equal resistors above about 500R placed in front. Try lowering the value of the resistor in the horizontal line (start by removing it and then add one and see how high you can go if it works).

The point is that to achieve sync, you sometimes have to play around to find what works. If you buy stuff and it doesn't work, you're out the money. I'm not sure the above is going to work, but that's what i'd try next.

The specs aren't much help here, as they mention max ranges, not tolerance directly, unless that 150mV is relevant here. The resistors are good for protecting your gfx card, but not for the sync levels' Vp-p range.

[gurbzs]

I'll deliver some pics as confirmation that this monitor is ok.
What you're suggesting is having a bunch of resistors ready for trial and error.
I can organize that, that will take some time but the results will be worth it.

[Calamity]

That's cleary a hsync problem.

Just in case, launch Arcade OSD, test any resolution (except the one being used by the desktop), enter horizontal geometry, an try changing the hsync pulse width. For best results, try using a super resolution (2560x), this will give you a much finer granularity. What you have to do is once you have Arcade OSD attached to the Ikegami and the test resolution on screen, press "2" to turn full screen off, then drag and drop the osd on your other monitor so you can see what you're doing, and work from there. When you make any change and want to test it, press "enter" or "1".

This is just to make sure it's not a problem due to the sync pulse being slightly out of spec. Ideally, any 15 kHz monitor should sync to a pulse width of 4.7 µs.