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Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.

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Xiaou2:

--- Quote ---I agree with most of what you say. The damage thing is worth thinking/worrying about if you are bashing your buttons all day, but your running analogy is poor (and what do you mean recent findings? surely anyone who has ever run knows landing on your heel is bad?). Your efficiency arguments are irrelevant, no-one runs out of energy pressing fire.

--- End quote ---

 The argument wasnt about Damaging your fingers, tendons..etc.   That would only be an issue, if your job were to non-stop rapid button presses.

 The argument was about speed and fatigue.   As member '1500points' has pointed out, (snicker)   trying to play a rapidfire game results in major fatigue.   If you use a leaf button, that fatigue level goes down to almost nothing.  And to be clear, fatigue with micros on rapidfire games can set in as quickly as 30 seconds.  Where as the same player, could play for an hour, and still not be fatigued with leafs.

 As for the ball - heel stuff... Id only heard about it within maybe the last 10yrs, on a documentary featuring the Tarahumara tribe, (I believe)  where they run barefoot for like two days, going 200miles, without pause.  They filmed the runners on a treadmill, and made the heel realization.   The resultant research, has been slow to spread... as a lot of people still are clinging to the 'dont run, it will mess your knees up', research that predated it.  And when looking for the tribe name, found an article from 2010, talking about recent discoveries to do with barefoot running.   So... while it may be obvious that landing on the heel isnt great... the science is / was still figuring out all the details.   Without looking yet, I have a feeling your a younger person.  Young people seem to think that anything thats 2yrs old is ancient.  When you get older, you will understand the relative reality of time much better.   China has a recorded history that goes back over 2000 yrs... and USA, only a few hundred. Tv, was made in 1911. Its a modern invention... but only a mere blip in this billions 4.5 billion year old planet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarahumara

 And Randy has some very valid points.

 For example, Defenders 2 way leaf stick, is very short. The shorter the throw, the quicker the reaction times.  Longer handled sticks, require more travel before activation.  This can be the death of you, esp. on games like defender.

 And Leafs are not the only reason why a true Wico 8 way will beat out modern joysticks for certain games. One factor, is the rubber centering grommet.  It allows a perfectly balanced pivot point, and there is no major spring bump tension to overcome. It also has a circular outside path, which is needed for robotron.. to roll effortlessly from one direction to the next. Some sticks have a square path, and you would get stuck in the corners. (delay from clashing into a dead stop, and then changing direction)   And then of course, its got less distance to activation than many micro based sticks. (and thats before you adjust the leafs)

 Many of the popular sticks, like the Comps, (as far as I could tell last I looked) use a spring systems which alters the position of the pivot point.  The shaft sort of slides a little to one side. This causes even more distance to travel before activation... and throws off the feel of stick.  The newer japanese sticks use a ball pivot, which is much more true... however, you would still have to deal with the clicky heavy tensioned micros, that also have that slamming collision impact.   While the collision of a joystick isnt that fatiguing, its still slightly discomforting.  You may not consciously notice it... but once you play a game with real wicos, its like a slap in the face.  Just smooth silky movement, without that jarring slamming.
Admittedly, they are a little stiff feeling.. but that somehow doesnt matter as much as the slam stuff does...  and the other benefits, such as lightning fast response times.

 While it may be true that masters can play Robotron with micros (id be curious to know what stick... cause I cant play it with comps, nor supers).. the average joe may not be up to the robotic task of strategies needed.  Instead, we rely on being able to do on-the-fly action... and as such, need every millisecond worth of advantage.  That games projectile speeds, and ferocity, pretty much require it.  Again, the smooth feel also complements it as well.

 I can honestly say, that I used to hate leaf buttons and sticks. Even, and especially when I managed an arcade.  They needed adjustments and cleaning often.  And, I really didnt know about the floating stuff either.   It wasnt till near the end of my arcade days, that I made some realizations.  I replaced the Galaga with Micros, and quickly found out, that Id made a big mistake.  And later, found a real Defender, and Robotron to play.. and again, got schooled.
Newer does not necessarily mean better.  In fact, these days, quality has slipped drastically.

Xiaou2:

--- Quote from: 1500points on February 07, 2013, 08:27:19 am ---Spriggsy replied about the firing subject which should lay that one to rest since he is one of the extreme masters on the planet-
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Those defender videos were shot when i was using my ASCII playstation stick, not a keyboard. The stick had microswitches, which means you can actually fire faster than leafs if you have the dexterity to do so

However a new homemade panel feels more authentic (accurate button layout and goldleafs). I cannot fire or reverse as quickly on my new controller however it is more authentic, so i am starting to prefer it.

The only benefit to quick fire is if a pack of swarmers is heading quickly toward you, or you have mutants up your ass and you need to quickly reverse and pick off as many as possible. The new controller is forcing me to play with more control than speed, which is taking time to get used to but it will be better in the long run.

That is Mike’s skill : it’s all about control and firing accurately, rather than hit and hope.

--- End quote ---

 This is misleading.

  Ive watched a video review of the AscII stick... and the only thing that had micros in it was the joystick.  The buttons, were standard press pad style buttons.  You know, the kind that are in a ps2 handheld controller.

 Even the latter ASCII sticks, which offer optical joysticks, have standard buttons.

 It was very rare to see anyone put out a full set of buttons on any controller, mostly cause of the expense.  As people have made control realizations, they may have came out with all-micro based controllers.  However, from the AscII links Id seen, I believe he wasnt using full micros for buttons.  Just short throw pad based buttons.

jimmer:

--- Quote from: RandyT on February 08, 2013, 01:36:11 am ---I guess next you'll be saying that a leaf joystick has no benefit over a standard stick with modified microswitches :)  I think that once you get your panel finished, and then go out and find some of the real machines that those games came from, you'll start to understand things a bit better.  I have the actual vertically restricted, very short leaf-switch based Defender stick in a box around here somewhere.  That thing is built to be very sensitive, and can be made so there is nothing, nada, and zilch for a deadzone.  The stubby length makes it so that the smallest of motions at the ball, will set the ship in this fast paced game, into motion.  It's a very specialized control, and is about as similar to a standard joystick as a proper leaf switch button is to a button with a keyboard switch inside.  Yes, both will work, to some extent, but they are in very different leagues.

--- End quote ---
Well at least if I said that you wouldn't need to invent strawmen to argue against  ;D

I'm not that interested in the fact that a Defender stick could be set with no gap. I am interested to know what you find is the best setting for engagement/disengagement.


--- Quote from: RandyT on February 08, 2013, 01:36:11 am ---I also have an actual Galaxian here.  If you had a leaf switch joystick, as it does, you wouldn't need to resort to buttons for moving the ship, in order to get the gameplay you seem to be after.

--- End quote ---
I believe that could be true, that's why I brought it up.


--- Quote from: RandyT on February 08, 2013, 01:36:11 am ---Just to be clear, I'm not faulting you or anyone else for the choices they make in controls, as there are many factors involved, including budget, availability, application and expectations.  But when well established facts regarding the benefits of different controls start to get muddled, it's likely to spawn some discussion ;).

--- End quote ---
I am faulting my choice. That why I'm making posts about converting my joystick to leaf switches and modifying micro-switches.

jimmer:

--- Quote from: Xiaou2 on February 08, 2013, 02:50:45 am --- So... while it may be obvious that landing on the heel isnt great... the science is / was still figuring out all the details.   Without looking yet, I have a feeling your a younger person.  Young people seem to think that anything thats 2yrs old is ancient.  When you get older, you will understand the relative reality of time much better.   China has a recorded history that goes back over 2000 yrs... and USA, only a few hundred. Tv, was made in 1911. Its a modern invention... but only a mere blip in this billions 4.5 billion year old planet.

--- End quote ---

I'm sure Ma Jun knew that running on the balls of your feet was damaging back in 230AD.

jimmer:

--- Quote from: Xiaou2 on February 08, 2013, 02:50:45 am ---And Leafs are not the only reason why a true Wico 8 way will beat out modern joysticks for certain games. One factor, is the rubber centering grommet.  It allows a perfectly balanced pivot point, and there is no major spring bump tension to overcome.

--- End quote ---

--- Quote from: Xiaou2 on February 08, 2013, 02:50:45 am ---Many of the popular sticks, like the Comps, (as far as I could tell last I looked) use a spring systems which alters the position of the pivot point.  The shaft sort of slides a little to one side. This causes even more distance to travel before activation... and throws off the feel of stick.  The newer japanese sticks use a ball pivot, which is much more true...

--- End quote ---

Zero slop about centre is obviously ideal. My zippy short stick has about +/-1mm free play (measured at the top of the ball).

I haven't reached a conclusion yet on whether that, i itself, is a real life detriment.
Currently I have 1mm free play+1mm travel+2mm disengage = +/- 4mm side to side engagement. This is not adequate for Galaxian.
I think I can tune the zippy down to 1mm free play+0.5mm travel+1mm disengage = +/- 2.5mm


If I was designing a leaf joystick (or button) it would have screw adjustment, not rely on pliers for adjustment.



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