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Donkey Kong (us set 1) slow on mame 147

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Haze:

--- Quote from: rCadeGaming on November 29, 2012, 10:18:28 am ---1 frame is outstanding, and not likely to be detectable unless it's being added to the lag of a poor display or controller encoder, etc.  However, while there are many games that run this way, I think there are also a lot of others that do add a significant lag.  For example, I noticed that Radiant Silvergun has 3 or 4 frames of lag, measured using the frame-advance method.  This may have been fixed in the latest version, I need to check, but I think there are a lot of games like this, and it does begin to significantly affect gameplay.

--- End quote ---

RSG is a peculiar case, it's running on the arcade equivalent of a Saturn, and yes, it's always a driver where I've found the input to be laggy.  The I/O chain is quite complex, going through a separate sub-cpu etc. and various layers before it actually gets to the game, and that's on original hardware.  I've heard many reports that a fair number of Saturn games have noticeably laggy controls even on the real system, although I would have thought if RSG suffered form that issue on real hardware more people would have mentioned it.  It is possible there is a bug in the timing, things need tighter syncs, interrupts are being fire off at the wrong times and missed, something like that.  There are definitely still issues with the Saturn emulation (evidenced by MESS where a number of games suffer from no working inputs at all) the problem is fixing some of them makes it even slower, and it's slow enough already for the time being!  I'm not sure I'd recommend the current version for RSG anyway, apparently some of the improvements made to the driver (and improve Saturn support as a whole) have actually caused it to regress in places, it's not a nice system to work with and right now it's a bit like balancing plates.


--- Quote from: rCadeGaming on November 29, 2012, 10:18:28 am ---Let me know if the frame-advance method isn't accurate.  In the past I've used a high speed camera at 240fps to measure input lag on LCD screens, using a CRT as a benchmark.  I plan to use a similar method to test my MAME setup in the future.

--- End quote ---

Frame advancing did used to cause some odd side-effects with games which required CPU intervention during frame time to display the screen (raster effects etc.)  I can't comment on how accurate that is right now but I'll trust it, we shouldn't be doing anything *stupid* in there.


--- Quote from: rCadeGaming on November 29, 2012, 10:18:28 am ---You may have heard of ShmupMAME, which is specifically written to minimize input lag.  It's tempting, but it seems to value that above all else, using methods that could be considered cheats or hacks; it's biased toward supporting mostly that genre of games, and it's based on the pre-107 rendering engine.  I still stick with the official MAME because I appreciate the accuracy, overall quality, and continuing improvements; but I really hope it can improve in terms of input lag in an accurate and responsible manner.

--- End quote ---

Yeah, I've heard of ShmupMAME, they're unfortunately stripping away lag that WAS present in the original games (either by design, some games added it to intentionally be harder!) or by breaking layer sync in the process (some games buffer inputs and/or sprites to ensure the different layers get rendered correctly and in sync)

It achieves what they want, but I find the side-effects undesirable.

MaxVolume:
Ugh... I wasn't implying that any DK slowdown was a direct effect of adding fruit machines, just complaining about the overall effect this pointless detour is having, like "full sets" needing a 1TB hard drive or ROM sites being a pain to navigate because they're bloated with that crap.

Obviously, my choice is to not upgrade, and that's what I've decided to do... er, I mean not do. ;)

Still, what pisses me off is that there's SO much "real world" stuff to simulate with these things, and pinball games too, but we can't freakin' have PONG.  Seriously?  You're gonna construct a "skin" to show a bunch of reels, panel lights, buttons, etc. and yet because PONG was a state machine with no microprocessor, it got removed?  Seriously?  Pretty blatant double standard if you ask me.  The prospect of finally having a "loader" or at least better emulation of CarnEvil, Solvalou, or some other game that really should work on my 3GHz PC come along years from now when Multiple Stuff-We-Found-A-Bunch-Of-Boards-For Emulator has got to the point where it needs its own hard drive really irritates me as well.

I think you're missing the point here... we're not telling you WHAT to do with MAME, just that if MAME had started out like this, we wouldn't have bothered.  Kind of like when your favorite musician/actor/director is successful enough to stop "compromising their artistic integrity" and puts out crap.  Sure, do whatever that little voice in your head tells you to do, just don't ---smurfette--- when nobody buys it.  No, MAME is not a commercial product that relies on sales to keep going, but do you honestly think it would have got anywhere without the throngs of people who saw it as a way to play their favorite arcade games at home without dropping quarters into a beat-up machine that may or may not work?  Facebook only recently became a publicly-traded company, but what people thought of it still mattered when there was no money to be made off it.  Sure, Zuckerberg seems to be ignoring user feedback and doing whatever he pleases just like the MAME folks, but all someone has to do is come up with something people like better, and it's bye-bye Facebook.  Look what happened to MySpace... they tried to please everyone by letting them "pimp out" their pages, and the whole thing turned into a bloated mess.

Tafoid:

--- Quote from: MaxVolume on November 29, 2012, 05:33:05 pm ---Ugh... I wasn't implying that any DK slowdown was a direct effect of adding fruit machines, just complaining about the overall effect this pointless detour is having, like "full sets" needing a 1TB hard drive or ROM sites being a pain to navigate because they're bloated with that crap.

Obviously, my choice is to not upgrade, and that's what I've decided to do... er, I mean not do. ;)

--- End quote ---

Any capable front-end can disseminate a given list or let you create a list of only the games you wish.  Your assertion that to play one game, a few games, or dozens of games you like requires downloading of (using current stats) about 45gb (regular roms in ZIP) and another 250gb or so CHD's (HD/CD based games as well as supported laserdisc games)...  you don't need to.  Bang for the buck is purely what you feel like putting into it.  The more you have, the more work you need to put in to maintain set between MAME versions.   Most gamers can put their most commonly played games easily on a CD or DVD and still have room.


--- Quote from: MaxVolume on November 29, 2012, 05:33:05 pm ---Still, what pisses me off is that there's SO much "real world" stuff to simulate with these things, and pinball games too, but we can't freakin' have PONG.  Seriously?  You're gonna construct a "skin" to show a bunch of reels, panel lights, buttons, etc. and yet because PONG was a state machine with no microprocessor, it got removed?  Seriously?  Pretty blatant double standard if you ask me.  The prospect of finally having a "loader" or at least better emulation of CarnEvil, Solvalou, or some other game that really should work on my 3GHz PC come along years from now when Multiple Stuff-We-Found-A-Bunch-Of-Boards-For Emulator has got to the point where it needs its own hard drive really irritates me as well.

--- End quote ---

You haven't been keeping up with progress, have you?  Pong is available in MAME (since 0.146u1 and requires a "netlist" text file) and is emulated in a proper way, not simulated like it was so many years when it first hit MAME and "removed".  It's playable on the fastest of machines and there is always room for improvement - but it's there.  With that framework, more TTL/Discrete based games are expected to show up in coming versions after schematics are disassembled and verified.  External projects such as "DICE" are also approaching discrete emulation in a similar way.   And, as I'm sure has been pointed out - as far as MAME using any type of patcher/loader to make commercial games play will not happen.  That is not emulation and it's not even preservation - target machines and the hardware contained in them for these games will not last forever which is the whole point of software emulation.

Speed issues?  Generally those who complain about speed and "should really work because" arguments don't understand how or why MAME emulates things the way it does.  MAME is more than a PC emulation project for playing games.  It's about as cross-platform as any current project can be and having no specific target means no specific areas to 'cheat' to gain speed.  I guess I don't know the motivation behind the irritation - you are free to code other ways or use other specific Arcade emulators which often do a better job of emulation due to their structure and focus on ONE platform - Sega Model 2,3, or Dreamcast/Naomi/Naomi 2 based might be more playable on these focused emulators.  PC specs will continue to rise and emulation often improves over time and effort put in meaning games thought never playable when first supported are fully playable now.


--- Quote from: MaxVolume on November 29, 2012, 05:33:05 pm ---I think you're missing the point here... we're not telling you WHAT to do with MAME, just that if MAME had started out like this, we wouldn't have bothered.  Kind of like when your favorite musician/actor/director is successful enough to stop "compromising their artistic integrity" and puts out crap.  Sure, do whatever that little voice in your head tells you to do, just don't ---smurfette--- when nobody buys it.  No, MAME is not a commercial product that relies on sales to keep going, but do you honestly think it would have got anywhere without the throngs of people who saw it as a way to play their favorite arcade games at home without dropping quarters into a beat-up machine that may or may not work?  Facebook only recently became a publicly-traded company, but what people thought of it still mattered when there was no money to be made off it.  Sure, Zuckerberg seems to be ignoring user feedback and doing whatever he pleases just like the MAME folks, but all someone has to do is come up with something people like better, and it's bye-bye Facebook.  Look what happened to MySpace... they tried to please everyone by letting them "pimp out" their pages, and the whole thing turned into a bloated mess.
--- End quote ---

The under laying goal of MAME hasn't changed in some time.  The project strives to document and through this documentation of the hardware, histories and software running on those machines, MAME works on emulation to present to the user the best example of original behavior as possible, short of using the real machine.  Purely run by volunteers, no money is given or exchanged, anyone associated with the project is there because they care more about MAME as a game machine or saving quarters.. it's paramount of preservation is and always will drive the rightly motivated  people to the MAME project - allowing it to continue.  Using other examples of failed (or soon to fail) websites bear no comparison to MAME.  The project, in one form or another, will likely outlast us all living today.

Or.. maybe the About section of mamedev.org explains things better:
"MAME is strictly a non-profit project. Its main purpose is to be a reference to the inner workings of the emulated arcade machines. This is done both for educational purposes and for preservation purposes, in order to prevent many historical games from disappearing forever once the hardware they run on stops working. Of course, in order to preserve the games and demonstrate that the emulated behavior matches the original, you must also be able to actually play the games. This is considered a nice side effect, and is not MAME's primary focus. "

Haze:

--- Quote from: MaxVolume on November 29, 2012, 05:33:05 pm ---I think you're missing the point here... we're not telling you WHAT to do with MAME, just that if MAME had started out like this, we wouldn't have bothered.  Kind of like when your favorite musician/actor/director is successful enough to stop "compromising their artistic integrity" and puts out crap.  Sure, do whatever that little voice in your head tells you to do, just don't ---smurfette--- when nobody buys it.  No, MAME is not a commercial product that relies on sales to keep going, but do you honestly think it would have got anywhere without the throngs of people who saw it as a way to play their favorite arcade games at home without dropping quarters into a beat-up machine that may or may not work?  Facebook only recently became a publicly-traded company, but what people thought of it still mattered when there was no money to be made off it.  Sure, Zuckerberg seems to be ignoring user feedback and doing whatever he pleases just like the MAME folks, but all someone has to do is come up with something people like better, and it's bye-bye Facebook.  Look what happened to MySpace... they tried to please everyone by letting them "pimp out" their pages, and the whole thing turned into a bloated mess.

--- End quote ---

MAME isn't meant to be a work of art tho, there is no 'artistic integrity' to compromise, it's a serious project more akin to a history book.

Sure in the early days the 'classics' hit hard and fast because they'd never been emulated before and naturally a lot of people had a higher interest in emulating those, but even today interesting things get done and quite often I'm the one doing them, even if I'm also the one doing a lot of the gambling / Fruit Machine type stuff.

Also with MAME the integrity and quality of the emulation of other parts is only enhanced by having a greater number of test cases, the robustness cores, legitimacy of the project etc. are all boosted by such things, MAME today is an emulation platform.

There are places you find the Fruit Machines / gamblers painstakingly maintained, just like any other classic arcade game, I've pointed out Mr. Ps classic amusements before ( http://www.reelfruits.co.uk/The-Machines1.html ) and to people who like that genre you have classics on par with the likes of PacMan etc.  When I work on the emulation of them I see a peek in interest too, and just like any other genre, I get comments asking about when things will be ready etc.

MAME can't *unemulate* something like PacMan to recapture the old days by emulating it again, but it still emulates it as well as it ever has done, and things like Donkey Kong, the subject of this topic are emulated today at levels not even remotely possible on the hardware available back when MAME was born, the experience is better than it's ever been.

What I don't expect is for people to spread misinformation that the things we're doing are inherently making the emulation somehow worse, they're not, you can choose to completely ignore everything other than the 5 games you care about with the latest MAME and for 99% of cases you'll get the best quality of emulation MAME has ever offered.

With new versions for the past year or so I've tried to point out interesting developments and improvements across the projects for each release, things people might otherwise have missed.  In the other thread I pointed out Planet Probe and Taito's Sky Destroyer but there's much more going on.  The DECO classic 'Angler Dangler' aka 'Fishing' which was a most wanted (or at least curious) title for a decent number of people was finally emulated a couple of versions back thanks to a rare cassette tape and dongle being read + dumped, work which is painstakingly difficult compared to ANYTHING Mame was doing back in the day, likewise things like the chip decaps have offered the ability to massively improve some protection emulations, and do things which would have been unthinkable in the past.

Things like the gambling games, and developments in MESS are all part of what MAME is today, and what helps improve MAME, keep it going.  I know a lot of people have a strong view that MAME should just release a 1.0 version and call it quits, many people seem to think that should have happened years ago and I struggle to comprehend why because cool stuff is happening every single week.

Even if something was to come along and 'replace' MAME because you think MAME has become somehow 'uncool' these days I can guarantee you that 95% of any project would only exist *because* of MAME, and would ultimately come to the same conclusions and direction of growth.

I'm probably not going to play half the gambling games, ever, aside from development and testing, but there are people who will, as much as anything it's a case of spreading our nets, making sure that there is something in MAME which can emulate everybody, that way there are always opportunities and positions for people to contribute and become involved with the project and *that* is vital to the project having any future at all.

I've said in messages before, people are quick to vote, or demand *destructive* action, when really there is no benefit to anybody from taking such action.  I'm pretty sure if I put up a poll and said 'should we remove all Mahjong games from MAME' you'd get 95% saying 'remove them' and 5% saying 'keep them'  but the fact is by existing they're doing no harm to the project, only improving it, and removing them would hurt the 5% much, much more than it would benefit the 95%

The problem is some people seem to see arcade video games as some sort of religion, they somehow see gambers and/or home systems as not worthy by comparison.

The reason MAME is having to reinvent the wheel when it comes to the PinMAME / Pinball support, and basically redo it from scratch is *exactly* because the old build was a side project, ended up being a full on fork, and eventually ended up with a codebase so different to current versions the code was impossibly to maintain and impossible to port general improvements to / from, which ultimately meant it ended up dug into a hole with no real way to improve the quality of emulation offered.  Now maybe some of you are perfectly happy with that situation, just like you'd be happy if MAME 'stopped' but that's a very short-sighted view of things.

Anyway all this just comes down to one thing, YOU don't like those games, and YOU don't want them in there, MAME as a project has no room for such selfish viewpoints.

People are very quick to say they'll never upgrade again, but I can pretty much guarantee if we do manage to figure out Raiden 2 one day then a huge number of users will upgrade for that even if MAME was emulating talking sex toys by that point.


gman314:
Sorry to get back on topic, but I got a chance to tinker around with some DK settings. I enabled the autoframeskip and it seemed to fix the problem. The percentage actually stood at or momentarily jumped above 100, but if I wasn't staring at the number I wouldn't have noticed any deviation from the norm. Next, I experimented with the keepaspect option. With this disabled, regardless of whether autoframeskip was off or on, this also seemed to get the game running perfectly.

I am not sure, however, how I feel about playing a vertical game without the proper aspect ratio. I'm sure that my eyes would get adjusted to it over time, but something just doesn't feel right about it. I'm curious as to how others feel about this.  Thoughts?

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