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Stiffer spring for Spitfire joystick?

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armi0024:
While switches do provide resistance, they do not provide this through the whole stroke.  Using micros to make the stick feel stiffer would still leave the "sloppy" feel and is often why sticks feel sloppy.  When a stick is improperly balanced it will feel loose in the middle (relatively light spring) and then it will feel stiffer when  you contact the micros.  This transition can be minimized with light weight micros, but that will leave the stick feeling loose throughout the movement.

The Roundhouse is a knock off JLW.  We elected not to carry this stick in our store, as it's not that different in price from the JLW and the JLW (or J-stick) was a better in many ways.  There are a few other stores that do carry them, http://www.jammaparts.net/joysticks/68-fighting-red-balltop-8-way-joystick.html, is one.  There is another version of these that has a 4/8 way restrictor also(like the base model of the original JLW).

I wanted to add, that all these sticks fit different niches.  The "Roundhouse" is not a bad stick, we just decided we offering enough options in that price range and that the step up to a JLW was low cost for high gain. With joysticks you usually get what you pay for. That being said they are also a "feel" type product, and there are some nice feeling, less expensive sticks.

UncleArgyle:
Thanks for the information armi0024!

Mike.

RandyT:

--- Quote from: armi0024 on August 02, 2012, 11:22:42 am ---While switches do provide resistance, they do not provide this through the whole stroke.  Using micros to make the stick feel stiffer would still leave the "sloppy" feel and is often why sticks feel sloppy.  When a stick is improperly balanced it will feel loose in the middle (relatively light spring) and then it will feel stiffer when  you contact the micros.  This transition can be minimized with light weight micros, but that will leave the stick feeling loose throughout the movement.

--- End quote ---

In the case of the Spitfire™ stick, there is very little space between the actuator and the stock switches, so the resistance is felt quickly when a switch starts to be engaged, and the higher tension continues well past the point of switch actuation.  Likewise, that tension assists in forcing the stick back to center.   The center point may not be hard and solid with the stock spring, but it also doesn't need to be.  In fact, some find the initial force required to unseat a stick from a harder center point to be detrimental to gameplay, but it's a preference thing.   As a point of reference, the often lauded WICO leaf joysticks also have a very similar bit of movement at center (especially after being used a bit), but immediately beyond this, the rubber grommet makes it feel like you've run into a wall.  Your use of the word "improperly" when talking about the sticks action, infers that your preference is superior to the desires of others.  Some folks prefer a lighter action on the stick,  while others don't.  Likewise, many want short throw and immediate actuation, while others feel that such a stick has a truncated feel.  That's why there are so many versions out there, with every one being nearly as popular with users as the other.  If this weren't the case, our catalog would be a lot smaller. 


--- Quote from: SteveR on August 02, 2012, 09:17:47 am ---Well since we're on the subject, could one of you explain to me the difference between the spitfire and the roundhouse?

--- End quote ---

The Roundhouse stick is a well built, very functional and sometimes overlooked option.  It's not fair to relate them to the JLW, as even though they may be similar in appearance, the play dynamic would likely not be the same, due to the engineering choices and stock switch selection made by the manufacturer.

But there are significant differences between the the Spitfire and Roundhouse sticks.  We gave them these names based on the type of game their design felt to be inspired by.  The Spitfire has a loftier, smooth feel like one would envision being well suited to playing a SHMUP, effortlessly floating around shooting it's targets.  The RoundHouse is more of a brute, and built to take serious abuse.  Smooth circular restriction, and tweakable switch actuation makes it a natural for fighters.  Of course, either can be used for all types of games.

But here's the "nitty-gritty";

Restrictors:
Spitfire: Square 8-way restrictor, optional Octagon and 4/8 way (not on the fly) restrictors.
Roundhouse: Perfectly round restriction.

Knobs:
Spitfire: Standard 6mm thread on shaft.  Compatible with the Hand-Candy, and myriad other options, including Bat-Tops.
Roundhouse:  Any color and size, as long as it's red, 35mm in diameter....and the one it comes with.  Not changeable, but nicely made.

Switches:
Spitfire:  Standard pusbutton-style switch.  No adjustment without full replacement of the switch with one having different specs.
Roundhouse:  Blade style switch.  Can be tweaked to increase or decrease sensitivity / deadzone.

Stock Shaft:
Spitfire:  Short, and thinner than most.
Roundhouse:  Longer, and beefier.

Footprint:
Spitfire:  About 20% smaller overall.  Can fit where full size sticks won't.
Roundhouse:  Full-sized, but still a bit smaller than the "American" norm.

Spring Tension:
Spitfire:  Light and smooth through the entire throw.
Roundhouse:  Stiffer, harder center point, and less smooth as a result.

Standard Dust Washer:
Spitfire:  Small diameter, simple lightly textured black finish.  Tight tolerance around shaft
Roundhouse:  Standard sized, raised manufacturers logos, loose fit.

And that about does it for these two.  Each has their place and does an admirable job, which is why they have earned a spot in our catalog.

RandyT

SteveR:
Thanks Randy, and now that I know the technical differences I'm still not any closer to knowing which I'd prefer for my project(s). I guess I'll just have to try them both. It's interesting that you'd suggest the spitfire for shmups. I would think the "looser" actuation wouldn't be desirable for making small accurate movements. I already have a zippyy for those games, but it's intriguing. Like the man from paradise says, "feel" has a lot to do with it.

RandyT:

--- Quote from: SteveR on August 03, 2012, 09:28:10 am ---Thanks Randy, and now that I know the technical differences I'm still not any closer to knowing which I'd prefer for my project(s). I guess I'll just have to try them both. It's interesting that you'd suggest the spitfire for shmups. I would think the "looser" actuation wouldn't be desirable for making small accurate movements. I already have a zippyy for those games, but it's intriguing.

--- End quote ---

Think about it this way;  A stick with hard centering requires more force to unseat the stick from the center position.  Note that I'm not talking about the actual switching center, where no switches are engaged.  I am referring to the mechanical engagement of the shaft itself.  To make a small movement with a hard centering stick, you physically need to do two things; break the centering forces, and then overcome whatever resistance might be inherent to  the switch itself.  This tends to force a playing style where the player needs to give the stick a hard tap, or several, to make such an adjustment.  This is different than the way the player would make larger movements, so there is a constant switching between the actions.  It's even worse when the two resistance points occur at different lengths in the throw of the stick, as would be the case with a Spitfire modified to a hard center with a heavier spring.    A stick with a smoother action removes the initial forces required to break the centering, and leaves only the switch itself, which one can feel in the throw of the stick.  Of course learned playing style plays a big part as well.  If you have played SHMUPS with a tight, short throw stick for the last 10 years, a stick which doesn't have those properties won't feel adequate to you.  You won't be able to use it in the way in which you are accustomed.  It doesn't mean, however, that it's not a good stick for that kind of game, or that you wouldn't excel after an adjustment period.

The major drawback with switch based sticks which use a standard, pushbutton-type micro is that the size of the deadzone cannot be changed without swapping out or physically modifying components of the stick.  This is why you see so many doing these types of mods.  The Spitfire is such a stick and has what I would consider a medium deadzone, with the stock switches, and was likely tuned this way by the manufacturer.  But I dug through my collection of switches and found a set which not only reduced the deadzone, but it also tightened up the centering considerably, all with the same spring and without altering the smoothness of the motion, as I expected.  The only caveat is a strong switch like this, is going to be louder, but after I modded it "Versa-Micro" stye, it went nearly silent while keeping the other positive aspects.  I personally like what it did for the stick, so I will see if I can get some of these as an option.  I'm going to also temporarily remove the "SmoothJoy" option for these sticks until I can offer the just mentioned approach.

If anyone, including the OP, wishes to swap the SmoothJoy switches ordered with the Spitfire, for the modified, heavier type, I will do this for a minimal shipping charge.  Just email me.

RandyT


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