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I think I hate leaf switch sticks.....
Xiaou2:
Good post Randy.
Additionally note.. is how critical game balance was back then.
If a game was too easy, the players would be on the machines too long... and thus not earning enough money.
If a game was too difficult in the 1st few levels... it might turn players off to the game. (though not always the case. Defender was an example where extreme Difficulty drew even more players in)
If the game played balanced for the first 3 levels... but then went to hell on higher levels... players would shun it, and play something else.
A player back then, was investing his money, gaining skills. Over time, the investment paid off in his ability to last longer, with less money. This of course, before they ruined games with continues.
A lot of games looped levels at certain point.. and just added more and more difficulty. Usually never being completely impossible... but Darn hard.
As hard as a game was made... eventually people would beat it. And one poor programming / design issue... and it would be exploited in the wild. (like the Sinistar 99 credit trick)
This is why, right from the very start... they were constantly testing and tweaking the creation as it was being made. And even when the game was mostly done... they would test it for months afterwards, tweaking and changing things to make sure it was water-tight when it hit the streets.
One mistake could cause millions in dollars of losses... as the Ops would decided not to purchase
a flawed game that the players could trounce due to bugs and poor balance.
Today, most producers dont spend much time on such advanced game design and balance. As a result, games are more like movies than actual skilled challenges. Exceptions are games like Mario 2D series... one of the most popular, successful, and loved game series ever created.
Today, games can get by even with poor gameplay... because they are being sold to individuals on home consoles. Where they are played to completion... and then sit collecting dust. Theres no pressure for a game to make constant flow of money for several years at a time. In fact, many games that are too difficult get a lot of complaints... rather than people actually rising to the challenges.
Gray_Area:
--- Quote from: Xiaou2 on February 01, 2012, 11:47:53 pm --- One thing about Leaf sticks.. is that you can use them on such a way that you rarely bottom them out. Meaning, you never really smash the stick into the edges of the mechanism..
I have not used a 360, so I cant comment about how they feel and react.
--- End quote ---
Moving and seeing and hearing it doing something is not enough for me. While I don't need a particular 4-way or 8-way type of restriction, I need some kind. The closer the better, and my modified P360s do well enough in this regard.
Re: Marble Madness/tracball placement - why didn't most trackballs have at least four rollers, then? Cost I'm guessing.
Re: design vs cost vs manufacture - it's obvious in the video and written archives that designers were trying to create something they thought was cool, hoping the public would think it was cool, and sometimes succeeding in both; the companies wanted to make everything as cheaply as possible, which the designers had to wrestle with; and the ops were almost strictly entreprenuerial opportunists. The result is history.
@Vigo: from what I've seen/read in interviews, they were hoping the game would be making money for at least six months. Ten months was a godsend. But, ultimately it didn't matter too much, because even if a game lasted only three (despite or in spite of field testing), the game companies had made their money on the sale of the game. And the ops would still usually take in another game from the same company.
In any case. The sticks on the machine I played last weekend, I was told, were repros from either Mike's Arcade or GGG. He didn't remember which.
Xiaou2:
--- Quote ---Moving and seeing and hearing it doing something is not enough for me. While I don't need a particular 4-way or 8-way type of restriction, I need some kind. The closer the better, and my modified P360s do well enough in this regard.
--- End quote ---
There is restriction.. however, what I meant is that so you have to go full travel to activate things. The centering grommet provides a sort of progressive resistance, which helps slow the stick towards the edges, and keeps hard smashes feeling soft, due to the rubber absorbing a lot of the shock forces. Its like the difference between running with wooden sandals, and a soft air chamber & padded sneaker.
--- Quote ---Re: Marble Madness/tracball placement - why didn't most trackballs have at least four rollers, then? Cost I'm guessing.
--- End quote ---
Ive not tried it yet, so Im not sure if its possible to fit that much mechanically into that small a space. Im also not sure if it would provide too much friction yet. It doesnt cost much more to add too rollers. They are simple mechanisms made of cheap to make, and standard plentiful parts.
Motors to drive it, and the motor controller board, would have added a bit of cost. Still, Atari was giving the green light on it... had it worked on time.
--- Quote ---Re: design vs cost vs manufacture - it's obvious in the video and written archives that designers were trying to create something they thought was cool, hoping the public would think it was cool, and sometimes succeeding in both; the companies wanted to make everything as cheaply as possible, which the designers had to wrestle with; and the ops were almost strictly entreprenuerial opportunists. The result is history.
--- End quote ---
Thats not always true. In fact, companies like Atari actually asked their designers to create new ways to control games, to draw more interest in the games. It depends on the company.
It also depends on the programmers / developers... as there are a lot of Devs out there today, that think a standard gamepads analog thumb sticks are fine for everything. A lot of programmers are not very good at challenging games.. but they do like the 'roam around in pretty graphics' effect. And so thats what their games have became. Zero challenge - Movie-Esc style romps. Its almost a crime to call them games. (and they wonder why game sales are tanking... when they should be growing exponentially due to higher population)
CheffoJeffo:
While I think that everything that needs to be said has been said, it seems that Donk still seems to think that Eugene intended for Robotron to be played with Atari 2600 sticks.
They strapped Atari sticks onto the existing Williams boardsets because they hadn't used 8-way sticks before. They wrote code. They played the code. They altered the code. They found some better sticks and connected them to a widget board. They played. They refined the code. They chose longer handles. They played. They refined the code. Then we all played.
It really is that simple.
You, like Genesim before you, may choose to believe that nobody put any thought into things, but the competition at the time for quarter drops was so large (was bigger than movies), that companies couldn't afford not to put significant effort into controls and the player experience.
Would Williams have ever chosen a longer handle than was readily available (i.e. this cost them lots of money!) if they didn't care about the controls and just wanted to use the stock 3.5" stick that could be easily had ?
Nope, your theory about just using the stuff that they had and catering to ops is offset by the fact that they had never used a Wico stick before and then they made the choice to use a different length stick.
:o
BobA:
Watch some of the videos on pinball games etc. There was alot of effort but the bean counters were always involved at the end.
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