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I think I hate leaf switch sticks.....
Xiaou2:
--- Quote ---3) I'm cynical. I just don't believe there was any "use the best control we can and spare no expense!" attitude.
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Yet look at Atari's Race Drivin sit-down...
Every part on it is completely custom, expensive, and complex.
The shifter unit weighs like 30lbs. Its made from a heavy steel box tube, with 2 levered pot assemblies inside, and a snap-click spring mechanism. A real wooden ball shifter top. And a superior realistic feel, and incredible durability, that no other shifter has ever matched.
The Seat has a giant electro magnet undernear it, to lock it in place.. and the user can use a button to un-lock it and adjust as needed.
The force feedback wheel motor is larger than many dryer motors. The steering assembly weighs like 100lbs. At its maximum setting, it could probably spin a small child gripping it.
The wheel itself, can turn about 3 full rotations each direction. (6 turns from one side to the other) Its an incredible, complex, and a very expensive to produce assembly. Its the only driver that uses a 10-turn pot. And, its the best FF wheel ever made, afaik.
The pedals were inverted mount.. and each pedal was different. The brake pedal used a progressive-resistance system of rubber compressive material + springs.. so it was very resistive to being pressed. The gas however, was light and fluid, using a completely different spring mechanism. The gas used standard pots... but the brake actually used a pressure sensor! There was even a clutch... which as far as I remember, was even analog (pot), not a cop-out on/off switch.
The cabinet was completely custom, even using molded plastic shells.
And if we look back at other Atari games, we see similar unique and expensive controllers.
Starwars - Custom Yoke w/ dual geared pots, 4 buttons & auto-calibration in software.
Missile Command - Huge 4" ? Diameter trackball
720 - The most insane & complex custom controller Id seen. Dual optics, levers, chain drive & more!
Major Havok - Was set to use a vertical green-glowing spinner-roller. Not sure what happened w/ that one.
(but "Kick", used a modified trackball w/ one axis rather than a spinner, which again shows how the developers did get their way, rather than getting forced to use generic parts)
Lunar Lander - A custom aircraft style analog throttle lever
Paperboy - Industrial-level bike controller with pull-back mechanism. Almost as complex as Starwars yoke.
Asteroids Deluxe - Amazing 3d black-lit artwork, via half-silvered mirror & cut-outs.
Road Blasters - Cheesy, but unique & costly steering assembly.
Road Riot - Another unique wheel assy. + vibration motor in wheel & kicker coils under the seats.
Steel Talons - Custom analog foot controller assembly. (rudder?)
Vindicators - Custom dual tank controllers.
Xybots - Turnable stick controllers.
While not every game in Atari used Uber controllers.. a Lot of their games used very expensive and original controllers.
A game like Gauntlet didnt need anything fancy. You barely have to move well in that game, as its so slow, cramped..etc. The stock joys the used were not the greatest.. but as far as I can see, they were very durable... which was exactly what they wanted. (Especially considering that a games actual arcade testing runs, would decide its production fate)
Later in the years, Atari got more and more generic, and 'cost-cutting'. Look at a game like Rush... and you can see that its made from pretty much all generic pedals and parts... and doesnt hold a candle to the controllers on a Race Drivin sit-down... let alone match the complexity, feel, and excellent designs of their elder specialty controllers.
And finally, you can read up on the MM Motorized trackball in some interviews with the creator. There's also design documents of that, and many other atari games on the atari website owned by safestuff.
If wasnt scrapped because of costs. It was because they couldnt get it to work mechanically as it was intended to work. I think they tried to use 3 rollers... when instead, they might have gotten it to work with 4. If they had more time, it may have actually became a reality... like many of their other masterpiece controllers.
RayB:
--- Quote from: Donkbaca on February 03, 2012, 05:53:38 pm ---you guys make it seem like there is some huge collaborative effort on each game. Maybe, but I tend to think like most companies you had an assembly line. The software guys do the software, the artists do the flyers and marquees and cabinet art and the hardware dudes built the machines. Any revolution was probably done more as a marketing gimmick and on a whim rather then being the result of careful research to maximize the playability of games. These companies were churning out 3-4 games a year, they didn't have the time to put in that kind of effort per game
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You're right and wrong.
You're completely 100% wrong about this when talking about the arcade game heydey where the programmer was also the artist and also the game designer and sometimes even the hardware engineer. We're talking when the games made uber-money (pre 1984).
You're completely right if talking about later on, when arcades were in decline and companies saved money by sticking to generic standardized parts. But that's when you started seeing the same old crap; beat em up after beat em up...
DaveMMR:
--- Quote from: RandyT on February 03, 2012, 09:06:48 pm ---
--- Quote from: DaveMMR on February 03, 2012, 08:37:28 pm ---But you take one look at Marble Madness and you have to wonder: Did they really painstakingly try out all trackball orientations and options and decided which one was best? Or was it just something that seemed obvious considering the levels are isometric? You're basically travelling in diagonals - I can't see why coding the game and mounting the control to favor those directions is considered a stroke of brilliance. And based on some of the sources I viewed, the trackballs weren't exactly designed to stand up to the constant abuse players put them through. If any game called for specialty hardware, it was Marble Madness. But what's cheaper and easier for ops to maintain? Plain 'ole non-motorized, non-optimized trackballs - mounted diagonally. ;)
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If you understand the mechanical workings of trackballs, knowing that some directions work far better than others (namely those where the ball is traveling toward a roller) and also consider that the primary directions in Marble Madness are down-left and down right, and that the trackball was installed so as to have the rollers in precisely those places so as to have the optimal performance from the controller in the directions most used in the game, then it's clear that it was well thought out as to provide the best control for the user.
Honestly, I don't believe that the existence of these practices is even being called into question. This type of thing is so standard in any product design that singling out the early arcade industry as having NOT done these rudimentary and standard practices is like labeling them as utterly incompetent. There are examples of the care and expense taken, nearly everywhere you look on those machines, to make sure those experiences would be such to keep you dumping more quarters in those slots. Poorly performing controls do not achieve that end, and you can bet that they understood it quite well. What operators did after the fact to make their own lives easier (player be damned) is another story.
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I think you're accusing me of saying "the arcade industry threw parts together without thinking and hoped for the best". I'm not accusing any of them of incompetence and I'm certainly not saying they blindly slap whatever they have around into a control panel. They clearly knew what they were doing, otherwise we would have forgotten about these games. They used quality parts and did it right. But is it hard to accept that maybe, just maybe, they didn't always use the best controller possible - for whatever reason? Take a look at the unreleased Marble Madness II. They changed the perfectly fine trackballs to joysticks because they thought the former was responsible for the poor response in location tests. And I'm sure they were fine, arcade quality joysticks. But they were more interested in making a game that'll turn a profit than retaining the look and feel of the original. Heck if it was about the integrity of the games and not business, we'd all have been able to play it instead of it's distribution being cancelled.
But for the most part, the games I grew up with at the arcade played great. I have no complaints. I have nothing but love and respect for these works of art. I'm just wondering aloud about how much time and money is spent comparing one joystick vs. another joystick for the typical game controls (joysticks are subjective anyway, aren't they?). I'm not trying to take away anything from anyone's fond memories. Just trying to imagine the behind-the-scenes, if you will, and the compromises that must be made to keep the factory lights on for as long as possible.
And Xiaou - you listed great examples of arcade games trying to differentiate themselves from a crowded game room floor. Walk into a Dave & Buster's and I defy you to find any game that's not "tricked-out" with gizmos, gadgets, lights, and whatnot. But that's fine - that's the business. That's what made games like Paperboy and Star Wars so memorable. But can they afford to do that for every single game that leaves the factory door? Or is that something reserved for games that have a chance to become classic and needed that little "incentive" to get your quarter's attention?
--- Quote ---If wasnt scrapped because of costs. It was because they couldnt get it to work mechanically as it was intended to work. I think they tried to use 3 rollers... when instead, they might have gotten it to work with 4. If they had more time, it may have actually became a reality... like many of their other masterpiece controllers.
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Well that still ties into the whole "cost" aspect (time=money). Again, Atari was a business and they have deadlines and profit projections, etc. so scrapping a controller that would have brought the game to a whole new level was ultimately more cost-effective than suffering costly delays while they attempted to perfect it. I'm sure if Cerny had the last say, we'd all be trying to interface those insanely expensive motorized trackballs to our MAME boxes. ;)
Xiaou2:
--- Quote ---And Xiaou - you listed great examples of arcade games trying to differentiate themselves from a crowded game room floor. Walk into a Dave & Buster's and I defy you to find any game that's not "tricked-out" with gizmos, gadgets, lights, and whatnot. But that's fine - that's the business. That's what made games like Paperboy and Star Wars so memorable. But can they afford to do that for every single game that leaves the factory door? Or is that something reserved for games that have a chance to become classic and needed that little "incentive" to get your quarter's attention?
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The argument was that the designers were not supposed to be able to get their expensive controller deigns realized... because they were merely cogs.
Those are just examples from One company.
Robotron doesnt have an expensive specialty controller. What it does have, is the Right controller for the game. A stick that would react fast enough, and last the hardcore abuses of players. I can assure you, that if Wico leafs were not available... they would have found or made a stick to control the game... and then balance the gameplay, difficulty, levels..ect.. to match that control.
As said, it was that same case for Gyruss, which uses a Monroe stick. And what about Sinistar? It Could have used a typical analog stick right? But guess what? A typical analog has sticky spots at the center... which would have hampered the speed and directional control accuracy. Furthermore, once you overcome the sticky spot... then you have almost no pressure.. so you easily over-shoot till your stick hits the edges. Meaning, you go from zero to warp 9 in an instant.. and have a hard time maintaining a smooth control of speed (and direction) period.
Instead, they created an Optical analog controller, which used a rubber centering spider. The further you are from center.. the more pressure you get... which helps the player maintain excellent control. The games control was excellent, and far succeeded similar games. Unfortunately, they actually were forced to jack the game difficulty too high, because the Ops were complaining about long game times. Supposedly, someone has the 'perfected' difficulty level roms chips somewhere out there. Hopefully one day, they might show up magically.
More proof? Go look at Jamie Fentons website. She created Gorf, and was working on MS.Gorf. She had built a custom controller, with I believe a trigger stick and a spinner. That was During development. Not After.
And sorry, but heres the deal... "Tricked Out" has nothing to do with Gameplay. Race Drivin didnt have all kinds of working car lights on it. In fact, on the outside, it didnt look all that great. However, the controls on it, and the superior feedback it provided.. made the game legendary, even trouncing games made +15yrs later. Todays racers, might have a nice Looking cabinets.. but their controls are far inferior.. as is their gameplay. Todays games are made to be 'Baby-Level' easy. Barely more than a Kiddie Ride.
Specialty controllers were not just made as a gimmick. They were created for giving the player more control.. thus they could make the games more challenging. That challenge, is what made the games so special and desired, and is why these games are still Loved and played even today.
But as Ive stated, controllers were tuned and tested to games. Even the lowly common joysticks. Which theres plenty of evidence of, such as Nintendos use of Micros.. where as other maintained Leafs. And where some used their own versions, such as Atari custom sticks, special Monroe sticks, Pac Mans custom industrial 4ways, and much more.
Xiaou2:
--- Quote ---so scrapping a controller that would have brought the game to a whole new level was ultimately more cost-effective than suffering costly delays while they attempted to perfect it.
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Thats mere speculation. Made on the side of Fear. Scared money reaps little gain... and even more chance for losses in the long run... which is one of the larger reasons why the arcades dont exist anymore.
In fact, the time it took to develop the working controller, with the added bonus of more levels being created.. could have made MM even more money than it did. Instead, the short-to-finish game, had actually worked against the earnings.
The additional challenge and fun of motorized feedback, may have brought the game to a whole other level. Driving sales thru the roof... and many sequels and or add-on kits, to be made.
Stripping MMs trackballs out completely, is one of the reasons why MMII tanked.
edit: Just saw this
--- Quote ---But is it hard to accept that maybe, just maybe, they didn't always use the best controller possible - for whatever reason? Take a look at the unreleased Marble Madness II. They changed the perfectly fine trackballs to joysticks because they thought the former was responsible for the poor response in location tests.
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Never said it was impossible. But remember, I was referring to games that actually made it out of production. MM2's problems were many. If you watch some vids of it.. you can see that they lost all the originality of it. Marketers decided to force the game to be more cartoony, rather than abstract/artsy. The original team was not part of it... And, the enemies were pretty much unavoidable and super annoying (no skills, just random and constant death and penalty). The shading of the tiles was weak (possibly unfinished rough renders).. with poor contrast and poor shadowing. The levels and gameplay were slow, sloppy, and plain stupid. The resulting Mess, is what led to nobody interested in playing it... and the ones who were willing to play it... couldn't operate a trackball. IE: Poorly coordinated / skill challenged.
Additionally however, I will say that there are games which controllers were made poorly. Most especially in the field of durability. Road Riot's wheel seemed to break down mechanically all the time. In Later games, like Hyperdrive.. they used very poor quality buttons and button assemblies on the main steering wheel... and they failed all the time. Daytona USA, while being one of the better drivers ever made... had frequent gear issues from failed mini-micros that they used. (probably the same ones used in the hyperdrive buttons!)
In the past, controllers were generally tested well, over-built, and abused. But I believe in later days, they just winged it. and or Cut controller testing time down to insufficient levels. Big mistake.
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