Getting native console resolutions on a television?

[XYXZYZ]

I just put a PC together to use as a console emulation machine for use on a US/NTSC standard CRT television with composite, S-video and component inputs. And after being spoiled by AVGA for my MAME machines anything other than native resolution won't do. I got a Radeon X550 video card with S-Video out, figuring there must be some way or another to get native console resolutions like 256x240 and 320x224 by using stuff like Power Strip through S-Video. I was having no luck, so after searching around these forums I learn that S-Video can't do anything other than 640 x 480 or 800x600. I did get 320x240 to work but the oddball console resolutions still don't work. I've seen some VGA to YPbPr boxes and they're rather expensive; will those help me out or lead to more headaches?

There's no way to get Arcade VGA to work on a standard television, is there?

[MonMotha]

The s-video outputs on every video card I've ever seen take everything and scale it to 640x480, interlace it, then spit it out.  They do this even if the resolution you're running in is already TV compatible, which is dumb, but it's the way they all seem to work.

There are some (mostly older) video cards that do support "component output".  It's usually possible to convince those outputs to do whatever you want through the normal tricks.

The other option is to get an external converter to convert your analog "VGA" (RGB) output to either component (YPbPr) or s-video.  Either will work, but the component option will generally look better.  Many of these converters (be careful which one you get) will leave the timing (resolution) of the signal unchanged and only convert colorspaces (sometimes calling "transcoding").  You can get converters that go to s-video in this nature for like $25 on eBay or various websites.  Component output models are usually more expensive and are more likely to feature scalers that will wreck your carefully configured native video, so be careful.

[Jack Burton]

Man, it seems like it's only a firmware issue too.  

What would one of those older cards be, Mon Mothma?

I would plunk down $100 for an AVGA card with native res component video output.  

I feel like this is a product that would benefit our community immensely.  There are so many people out there who don't want to mess with arcade monitors because of the level of technical abilities required to install them and the dangers associated.  Those people have to make due with primitive scaling and blurring on CRT's that are perfectly capable of showing arcade games 99% accurately if fed the correct signal.  

[newmanfamilyvlogs]

I don't think you can actually do this the way that would be the most useful. In the end, no matter if you're using component, composite, or svideo, the card has to be generating an NTSC signal (or PAL), which is 525(625) lines of resolution.

What you would need to do is have the card's encoder outputting as close to this maximum as possible, windows outputting this resolution exactly, then do an integral scale of the game and just live with the resulting boarders around the image.

[MonMotha]

What would one of those older cards be, Mon Mothma?

Look for GeForce 6000 era stuff or Radeon HD3000 era.  They'll specifically say that they have "HDTV" output.  There's a mini-DIN connector that looks like S-Video but actually has additional pins on it.  You'll need the right breakout dongle (it's different between nVidia and ATI and sometimes even some cards have a proprietary one) to get RCA connectors.

I don't think you can actually do this the way that would be the most useful. In the end, no matter if you're using component, composite, or svideo, the card has to be generating an NTSC signal (or PAL), which is 525(625) lines of resolution.

What you would need to do is have the card's encoder outputting as close to this maximum as possible, windows outputting this resolution exactly, then do an integral scale of the game and just live with the resulting boarders around the image.

The component outputs on these video cards made about 3-5 years ago were usually just fully configurable outputs that output in YPbPr instead of RGB.  They did not limit you to NTSC/PAL or even things that would be compatible with NTSC/PAL.  They were intended for use with HDTVs that supported other resolutions (720p, 1080i, 480p, etc.) and offer those as defaults in the driver control panel on Windows, but most of them will let you pick anything if you dig deep enough.  They don't have an "encoder" on them that rescales everything like the S-Video outputs all do.  The downside to this for normal users is that you are limited to running these outputs at some resolution that your TV supports, and they did all sorts of software tricks to try to "make that easier" for people.  The upside in this case is that if you want some weird mode like 372x288, you can have it.  Your TV can probably display such a thing, though you may have to adjust the geometry in service mode.

Some of these things do appear to have scalers on them.  They'll rescale everything to the nearest "standard" HDTV mode you tell it that your TV supports.  However, most of the ones I've played with seem quite happy to just do unscaled output.  The drivers WILL get in your way, so be prepared for some headaches, but the hardware is likely physically capable of what you want.

[Caseyj123]

Maybe a video signal converter is more effective than changing vdo card...


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[Jack Burton]

Maybe a video signal converter is more effective than changing vdo card...


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As mentioned earlier in the thread there are RGB > YpBpR (analog component video) converters out there.  I have read various stories from people with varying levels of success.   They have worked fabulously for some, and for others they have had issues with the screen being either too wide, or off center. 

Now, with the video tools available to us now the issue of getting the correct video timing to a monitor is only a matter of trial and error provided the colorspace is converted properly, but it would be VERY nice if you could just get a video card that outputs 240p S-video without any hassle. 

[matsadona]

Is it impossible to find SCART equipped TV's in the US?
I feel bad for you all when reading threads like this when I know how convenient it is for us here in Europe with RGB inputs through the SCART connector...

[Kevin Mullins]

Is it impossible to find SCART equipped TV's in the US?

I wouldn't say it is "impossible"... but I wouldn't waste my time looking as the odds are slim of finding one.

[Jack Burton]

It's not impossible at all, however it is impractical.  There are far more RGB monitors out there than SCART tv's.

RGB monitors are called a few different things.  Sometimes you'll hear them referred to as professional, studio, video, or CGA monitors.  They are all useable as arcade monitors provided they have the correct connections on the back.  The perfect example of this would be the Sony PVM series.

http://www.broadcastbaron.com/infopvm20m4u.htm




These can be found on the usual sites like craigslist, ebay, or surplus suppliers.  They tend to turn up at medical surplus depots the most in my experience.  They can go for a song, or for a decent chunk of change depending on the condition.  

However, these are not so good for the OP.  What he's looking for is the ability to output standard res to a regular television just like the original consoles did. 

[StephenH]

To do this, you would probably have to get a schematic for the TV in question and figure out how to bypass its own internal composite/S-Video/Component/RF to RGB decoder and connect your own wires to the chips or transistors where the output lines for R, G, and B  from this decoder go into the drive/output circuit that drives the CRT color guns.  The same would have to be done with the sync, assuming you have a compatible signal from the game board.  This is probably not for the non-electronic engineer faint of heart!   There can be very high voltage inside a TV around the picture tube and flyback.

[MonMotha]

Waaaay too complicated.  Just get a colorspace converter and use the YPbPr inputs.  Quality is essentially identical on a good TV with a good converter (the colorspace conversion can be done losslessly, but most cheap ones do a 4:2:2 downsample).