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I would like to use a compact flash as a hard drive in a bartop cabinet, but...

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newmanfamilyvlogs:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812156034
USB 2.0 to SATA 1.8"/2.5"/3.5"/5.25"/SSD Hard Drive & CD/DVD-RW Adapter
$20

For such a small volume of data, what I would do is use this or something like it to copy the drive to an image, not unlike you might do an CD to an ISO, then copy that back onto as many disks as you want. It would also serve as a nice backup just in case.

I'll assume you're familiar with Clonezilla?
 http://clonezilla.org/

jukingeo:

--- Quote from: MonMotha on June 20, 2011, 10:38:41 pm ---
Look up aufs.  It appears to be a successor to/rewrite of unionfs.  Basically, in your initrd/initramfs, you mount the / partition read-only in an alternate location, create a ramdisk, put a filesystem on it, mount that read-write, then mount them on top of each other using aufs with the result being writable (copy-on-write), with the writable storage being backed by RAM.  That then becomes your new / partition once the system pivots out of the initrd and starts init.  You're essentially doing what EWF appears to do on Windows.  It is in fact even possible to replicate the "thaw and commit" behavior with some scripts.

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/aufsRootFileSystemOnUsbFlash may have some useful info, but it's a bit dated.
http://www.cianer.com/linux/81-read-only-root-partition-with-aufs is an article that may be more up to date.

Note that those instructions use a tmpfs rather than fixed size ramdisk with "real" filesystem for the writable filesystem.  You can do this, and there are some advantages, especially on RAM starved systems, but there are some problems that can rarely occur and are difficult to diagonose.

For extremely compact systems, which are common in embedded devices, you can sometimes just cram the entire system into the initrd/initramfs.  This has a lot of downsides, but it's pretty darned simple.  You're not going to be able to cram a standard Ubuntu build into an initrd/initramfs realistically, though.

--- End quote ---

I took a quick look at the links you posted.  This looks pretty complicated to do and apparently there are some downsides.   I was under the impression that you could set the entire root volume as read only with just a few mouse clicks, and then set up a ram drive to allow writes to ram.   Overall it seems like EWF is WAY simpler to set up.  And you said "...it's pretty darned simple".   Hmmmm, I am not THAT much of a Linux expert.

Do you know of a simpler alternative?   I would think so since most Linux distributions can run off a Live CD.



--- Quote from: nox771 on June 21, 2011, 12:39:01 am ---
It is automatic, I believe most modern flash devices will have some variety of it - Wear Leveling
--- End quote ---

Ahhh, that link cleared things up quite a bit more.  I can see how that could help if you do make quite a few changes to an OS or an embedded system.   However, as I mentioned earlier, most of my applications do fall into the 'read only' category and it would be best to prevent writing altogether (once I have the system set up).

As it is finding out about EWF for Windows XP was (thusfar) the single greatest piece of knowledge I garnered from this project.  When I first started this post, I was pretty much thinking I wouldn't be able to use Windows XP because of it's constant writing to the hard drive.  I knew I would certainly destroy a Compact Flash or other SSD device in a short time if I didn't get writes under control.   I did think that I would have faired better with Linux, Windows 98 or even DOS.


--- Quote ---(no noise) IMO that alone is a good enough reason not to want a HD.  However for those suggesting it, what is the motivation for an actual HD?  Barring CHDs or some such, running classic games is hardly an I/O intensive operation, doesn't MAME entirely load the ROM set into memory?  If so, I don't see a performance need there at all unless a flash based setup is seriously detrimental to boot times.

--- End quote ---

Overall, there were just several reasons I wanted to try this project out.   Low noise is one of them, but it isn't mandatory for most of my applications, which is why I didn't bring it up initially.  Add to that, with my last new computer purchase, I can barely hear my hdd's running anymore.  In fact my entire new rig I built myself and I did take noise levels into consideration since I am using the computer for sound editing work too.   I have 4" fans in my unit that run at slower speeds rather than small noisy 3" fans.  Bottom line, low noise was not a major contributing factor...but I know it would be for some.

I think overall it is the idea that I could put together something that I have already seen in the field (I mean if a commercial game produces a unit that does it, why can't I do it for my home game units?).   And the format appeals to me because I already have the card reader on my main computer.   So duplicating should be a fairly easy process.

Now, speaking of duplicating...


--- Quote from: cotmm68030 on June 21, 2011, 05:42:15 am ---http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812156034
USB 2.0 to SATA 1.8"/2.5"/3.5"/5.25"/SSD Hard Drive & CD/DVD-RW Adapter
$20
--- End quote ---

This is exactly a perfect example of why I prefer using Compact Flash over using an external HDD duplication system.  I mean really, would you take a good look at this thing?  Look how many wires go into it.  It would be like having your own resident octopus sitting on your desktop.

Now I know what you are thinking...you can put it away right?  Well, I know the first thing that would run through my mind when I need to make a small change.  "Ok, so I have to open up the computer (or cabinet), unplug and take out the drive.  Then I have to set up the 'octopus'...make my changes and then put everything away."  I probably would put off changes until absolutely necessary.

With the compact flash, all I have to do is reach over (or in)...pull the card out and slap it into the CF reader built into my printer.  Make changes, pull it out and put it back into the game (etc) cabinet and DONE.   I just think it is more 'elegant'.

Granted, as I said before, there will be instances where I would stick with an hdd.  For example, my Vixen light controller system, I think I would stick with a hard drive.   The reason being in this case is that for a given season, I do events for both Halloween and Christmas.  The number of changes and updates I do would make turning the EWF off/on a pain.  Also I have not found a reliable way to run Vixen outside of an actual Windows system.   However, a way around this is to perhaps set up writes to another flash drive.   But I just think it would be an overall hassle and a 2.5" hdd would be best in this case.


--- Quote ---For such a small volume of data, what I would do is use this or something like it to copy the drive to an image, not unlike you might do an CD to an ISO, then copy that back onto as many disks as you want. It would also serve as a nice backup just in case.

--- End quote ---

Ok, now you have my attention.   I believe something like this was mentioned before and I even said that in the case of Linux I KNOW that many distributions use a Live CD.   So I am assuming that once I set up a system, I can set up an ISO image on the Compact Flash card and thus have a read-only setup, correct?


--- Quote ---I'll assume you're familiar with Clonezilla?
 http://clonezilla.org/

--- End quote ---

No I am not familiar with it, but I will read up on that Link.  I am familiar with Ghost though...familiar in terms of it's existence and use, but I haven't used it myself.

Now I have a question.  With the setup I now I have on my Compaq test bed...wouldn't I be able to simply 'copy' the entire contents of the Compact Flash to another one without any fancy programs?

EDIT:  Ok, just tried that and...it didn't work :(.  However, I wonder if having the CF card slot within my printer that could be the fault.  It seems when I was attempting to copy the contents of the CF to my main computer HD, the light on the printer kept coming up "card error"...shortly after I get an "access denied" message and the copy process shuts down.  Now mind you, I am still READING off the card and not making the actual copy.  Hmmm, that is weird.  I wonder if there is something I have do on the printer.

Thank You,

Geo

MonMotha:

--- Quote from: jukingeo on June 21, 2011, 10:02:02 pm ---I took a quick look at the links you posted.  This looks pretty complicated to do and apparently there are some downsides.   I was under the impression that you could set the entire root volume as read only with just a few mouse clicks, and then set up a ram drive to allow writes to ram.   Overall it seems like EWF is WAY simpler to set up.  And you said "...it's pretty darned simple".   Hmmmm, I am not THAT much of a Linux expert.

Do you know of a simpler alternative?   I would think so since most Linux distributions can run off a Live CD.

--- End quote ---

I wasn't aware that Microsoft had this reduced to "a few mouseclicks" on normal XP Pro installs.  All the instructions I can find either require you to extract some files from the "feature pack" or "borrow" some files from an XPe system then do some registry modifications (which can be done using a provided .reg file in many cases).  "Real" XPe systems do have a wizard of sorts to enable it, but that isn't present on XP Pro.

The procedure described in the linked can be done entirely from the Ubuntu GUI, though it may not be immediately obvious due the way it's presented.  Download the file provided, drag/drop to the location indicated, check "properties" to verify it's executable, edit the text file indicated, run the command given (from the "Run..." type dialog), bang the reboot button.  Editing of the GRUB config could actually be made unnecessary by altering the script provided, but the way it's done allows you to back the union with something other than a ramdisk e.g. another hard disk partition, which might be handy.

leapinlew:

--- Quote from: jukingeo on June 21, 2011, 10:02:02 pm ---This is exactly a perfect example of why I prefer using Compact Flash over using an external HDD duplication system.  I mean really, would you take a good look at this thing?  Look how many wires go into it.  It would be like having your own resident octopus sitting on your desktop.

Now I know what you are thinking...you can put it away right?  Well, I know the first thing that would run through my mind when I need to make a small change.  "Ok, so I have to open up the computer (or cabinet), unplug and take out the drive.  Then I have to set up the 'octopus'...make my changes and then put everything away."  I probably would put off changes until absolutely necessary.

With the compact flash, all I have to do is reach over (or in)...pull the card out and slap it into the CF reader built into my printer.  Make changes, pull it out and put it back into the game (etc) cabinet and DONE.   I just think it is more 'elegant'.

--- End quote ---
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817986003&cm_re=2.5%22_HD_Bay-_-17-986-003-_-Product

There are all kinds of elegant solutions you can use. The device I linked installs in a computer and allows you to easily pop in a 2.5" HD.


--- Quote from: jukingeo on June 21, 2011, 10:02:02 pm ---Now I have a question.  With the setup I now I have on my Compaq test bed...wouldn't I be able to simply 'copy' the entire contents of the Compact Flash to another one without any fancy programs?

--- End quote ---
No, you'll need to do a bit level copy and pull the data over in it's entirety including the boot sector of the CF card. Whether you are using a CF card or a HD, you'll need to copy over single bit of data. You'll want to use a program which does this for you. What you should do is copy the data in a stored image file and burn that image to whatever.

MonMotha:
(Note: not trying to be snide with my comments - though upon re-reading it, I see it may have come off that way.  I was not aware that the process for activating EWF on non-embedded versions of XP was appreciably easier than the procedure posted above on Ubuntu)

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