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the state of mame
ark_ader:
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abaraba:
--- Quote from: CheffoJeffo on January 11, 2011, 06:30:09 pm ---
--- Quote from: abaraba on January 11, 2011, 06:22:03 pm ---
--- Quote from: CheffoJeffo on January 11, 2011, 06:01:04 pm ---
Except that somebody with an actual 720 controller has already explained the difference and lent his judgement ... it LOOKS like a spinner based on the optical inputs, but the direction of the stick matters (and is handled by the second encoder wheel).
What say you to that ?
--- End quote ---
His judgment is about playability for average PC user, I'm talking about accurate documentation. -- I'm not sure what is your point, main encoder input is mapped to Mouse X, calibration encoder is mapped to Mouse Y, and it all works. I am not saying you can play it properly with mouse this way, you can't, but you can TEST it as if you had original controller.
--- End quote ---
Problem is that there is no way to tie X and Y together (as they have to be) with a mouse so that you can even TEST it reasonably, UNLESS you have an original controller.
Or, if there is, then please enlighten me (as others here already have).
--- End quote ---
Move X axis - character rotates, it works.
Move Y axis - if first time after game starts it sets character to face North, and any other time it rotates (corrects) character towards facing North by one notch, it works. (In ideal circumstances this input is unnecessary, I think it's only when people start playing rough with the cabinet encoder might skip a notch, but otherwise calibrating only at the start of the game would most likely be sufficient.)
Hold on, I'll start a new thread about 720 controller when I finish replaying here, or you go on and do it if you want.
Paul Olson:
From the controller code before the switch to analog input, it looks like both encoders were hooked up to the same input, and the direction of the character is kept by the second encoder. You really do need a real controller to test that I think. A normal mouse wouldn't let you play the game as it was intended to be played, so the analog solution really is the only way most developers could playtest the game for emulation bugs. I am going to try to find a controller. I don't remember liking the game too much, but I am a sucker for unique controls.
Xiaou2:
In 720, The 2nd encoder disc is used to re-calibrate the onscreen character.
A spinner has no start and stop points. But a 720 spinner has a stick that points in certain directions...
If the stick was pointing down when you started the game up, but the character on screen was pointing Upwards... the control wouldnt be accurate to the user.
To solve this, they use a 2nd disc to see where the Up position of the stick would be... or at least, can tell by how many ticks it takes to get to that calibration spot,
and figure everything out from that.
Also, if for example, some of the notches on the main discs were clogged with dirt, the stick would eventually get messed up calibration in relation to the screen. The calibration disc continually solves any such issue.
Why didnt the game use an Analog stick? Because Pots dont last very long under so much continual motion and stress. They also provide a lot of extra frictional resistance... AND, it would take 2 pots re mames way... which means twice the failure potential...
Also, with an analog stick, the movement is not smooth or fast, and uses too wide an angle for rapid spins. Remember also, a 720 stick has a center pivot point, where as an analog has the pivot at the very bottom. The center pivot makes it easier and faster to spin... which is needed to do the more complicated tricks. (IE: you can spin like 5x as many times before you hit the ground)
While the Analog hack is a decent alternate (I believe it was MY idea originally),
it should not act as a replacement. And its Not anywhere near close to the real deal.
Its obvious, that here is One of MANY places where true Preservation is being disgraced... and why mame has to be taken over by Professionals who actually believe in Real preservation... not just like working on interesting Puzzles.
Substituting Hotdog for Beef in Beef stew is no longer Beef Stew.
Just because you are fine with Hotdog stew, does not make it right or accurate. That is not how the recipe was designed to taste. Regardless of how much Easier it was to make it, and the lack of available beef in certain locations.
Anyone who has tasted real beef stew, and have good taste-buds (sensative palette), will immediatly be displeased. As would it be an Insult to the person who made that recipe, to even call it preserved like that.
As said, theres no good reason why both methods of imputs cant work. Its merely a lack of care and value on the code monkeys part... which is rightly contested by people who Do understand the value of the original creations as they were meant to be experienced.
What if we took the argument to other formats?
Well, I encoded the Movie in Mono, because I only have hearing in one ear, and I
dont care about the rest of you who Do have 2 ears.. nor do I care about representing the Surround sound accurately as was designed. It sounds just fine to me and my one eared pals... and pals who dont give two rats tails about the film.
Ohh, and its way too hard to add a switch. It might take away from my time writing 500 lines of BS on FilmPres.com. If you want to hear more, do it yourself. (even though you helped buy the rare film from a collector)
abaraba:
--- Quote from: Derrick Renaud on January 11, 2011, 04:27:40 pm ---Unfortunately most people just want to get their favorite game to work. Eg hook up 720 as 2 relative/mouse inputs, which would make it unplayable by 99.99% of Devs/users. That is not acceptable.
--- End quote ---
One of them is a hack, the other is authentic functionality.
One of them is meant so people can play, the other is historical fact.
Whichever tickles your fanny, just don't say how playing the games is only a side-effect.
But you are wrong, it would not make it unplayable, one *option* does not exclude the other. Have you ever used MAME? Mapping different input devices to control panel layout is already generic and fully functional, i.e. it automatically works for all the games without any changes required, what so ever.
So, you too think emulation/preservation of a PCB is complete/accurate even without reference to authentic controls?
=====
BTW, there is new thread now to talk about 720 degrees controls, where the main goal I hope would actually be to establish what "accurate preservation" means or should mean, and how to actually read MAME as historical document or technical reference, i.e. you want to repair actual 720 degree PCB, but can't make it work with analog stick.
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