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the state of mame
SammyWI:
--- Quote from: saint on January 09, 2011, 09:10:43 pm ---Dude... The shark is thoroughly jumped now. The empire is safe. Princess Leia has been rescued.
--- End quote ---
You're supposed to be resting! Take another happy pill and I'm sure you'll realize that these are not the droids you're looking for. :laugh:
jennifer:
Jump the shark?....What does the "Fonz" have to do with this?.... You guys are so mean!
Haze:
--- Quote from: abaraba on January 07, 2011, 09:15:24 pm ---
--- Quote from: Haze ---correct, controls are external. The way external things interact with the PCB emulation is not part of the project goal.
--- End quote ---
Handling input is essential and very much internal part of any game's functionality. Monitor is not part of PCB, so it is fake scan-lines, stretching, blurring and filtering that is EXTERNAL (unnecessary).
--- Quote from: Haze ---There is nothing conflicting about these statements. Playing the games is a side-effect of correct emulation. To obtain correct emulation it is necessary to have people using MAME. It's a CYCLE.
--- End quote ---
"Playing the games" is the same thing as "people using MAME" in the next sentence. It can either be necessity or side-effect, not both, one excludes the other. It is either intentional or coincidental, conflict is in relation to potential legal liability.
--- Quote from: Haze ---You've clearly not played many games, pretty much every PS3 game, and an awful lot of 360 games have severe tearing. You might not like it, but it's a fact.
GT5 for example has it almost all the time.
http://uk.gamespot.com/ps3/driving/granturismo52/show_msgs.php?topic_id=m-1-57294186&pid=941103
--- End quote ---
Other people in that thread, and I, dispute there is any tearing. Simple sync to monitor refresh solves all the tearing problems, so the guy reporting it was possibly having some issues due to video conversion or NTSC/PAL settings, or was simply referring to some other visual artifact as "tearing". -- One of us is not telling the truth, I mean you.
--- End quote ---
The games DON'T sync to vblank, there are many many games which don't. I have / have rented over 100 xbox / PS3 titles and I can tell you at least half of them DON'T sync, at all. Another one with REALLY bad tearing is Saint's Row, on the 360 tears every time you turn. Having worked in the industry I know the effect, I know what causes is, and there are plenty of developers reluctant to sync to vblank these days, especially on the PS3.
Your attitude here absolutely stinks. You refuse to believe what you are being told, no matter how clearly it is explained.
You come up with your own BS reasons about why things are done, just as X2 has attempted to do, despite being told, and having things clearly explained by me, one of the people who ACTUALLY BEEN INVOLVED IN MANY OF THE DECISIONS.
Which part of 'if you want change, create your own build' do you not understand?
Do I care if people are using old versions? Not really, their choice, they ARE missing out on a lot of other improvements, but if it works for them, it works for them. Maybe not being directly involved in the project people are missing out on the astronomical number of fixes made all the time, fixed based on user feedback from running the emulator and finding bugs in the actual emulation, which make it very hard for me to trust something as old as 0.90, 0.106 or whatever else to offer a solid level of emulation. Part of that user feedback may well have been that it was impossible to test 720 properly on a PC due to the absurd controller requirements in older builds which was a sentiment obviously shared by the development team.
If you plan on ripping out the control scheme which actually allows me to run and test 720 on a normal PC, which is what 99% of the devs own, I will oppose that change. Being able to test and develop something, on normal hardware is a REQUIREMENT. Being able to hook up the original controller IS NOT A REQUIREMENT.
If you plan on adding excessive configuration options Aaron will almost certainly oppose / reject your change, he's expressed before he wants to keep command line switches etc. down to a minimum.
As I've said, and will continue to say, the ability to hook up the original controller has nothing to do with the accuracy of the emulation. Being able to test it on a standard PC, to ensure the accuracy of emulation has everything to do with the accuracy of emulation.
You can quote me all you want, the quotes you've used were my way of attempting to encourage users to look elsewhere, use other emulators. While I like having everything in MAME, I don't believe a MAME monoculture is healthy, for one, it means morons keep bugging us about how they want specific features, such as .. 720 controls .. whereas if there was more choice people could just go where the choice was. If you hadn't noticed, I've been saying 'create your own build' quite often. When popularity means people expect MAME to do everything, even things the developers don't really want to do then it IS a problem, and people SHOULD be looking elsewhere.
There are MANY areas in which MAME hasn't decided to go with what is 'popular'.
There is still no official netplay (although at this point, providing the solution was reasonable like ClientServerMAME it does provide a good way to test deterministic behavior and state support)
There are no destructive image filters (eagle, 2xSAI)
There is no fake 3d acceleration on things like PSX, N64, Saturn hardware
There are no 'fake' systems with purposely overclocked CPUs to eliminate slowdowns
There are no 'fake' commandline options to run all games at 60fps internally, screen tear is considered a better option.
There are no fake transparency effects on 2D fighters
There are no fake macro inputs to make fighting game moves easier to pull off
There is no fancy windows GUI
There is no built-in force feedback (it's not cross-platform / device friendly)
There is no option to replace game sounds with custom MP3s and samples
There is no option to run the 'EmuDX' versions of the games
If all people want are these features, they should look elsewhere likewise if YOU want support for original controllers, you should look elsewhere too.
BUT, some features to make MAME attractive are needed, because as I've said more times than I care to count now, if there was NO testing, and NO userbase, then well.. the accuracy of emulation would probably be back in the 0.2x dark-ages. It's called striking a balance, ensuring that things CAN be developed and will get tested. It's also true that some of the non-essential options in MAME are just pet projects of the developers. The entire image filtering system we do have it just an experiment from Aaron. It's his code, and his part of the project, why shouldn't he be allowed to do a few things he wants to do there. It's an interesting piece of tech albeit one that didn't hold his interest for long.
So .. In the politest possible way the only thing I can say is:
If you don't like it then create your own build, and shut the #### up.
If you wish to continually talk down on the development team as if we've made some kind of mistake that's your problem, not ours, your condescending attitude does not help your cause, at all. You are nobody.
shateredsoul:
Haze, I think many people have expressed their gratitude for your work.. many more than those who have complained or picked on the mame dev team. As humans, I do think we tend to notice the negative more than the positive. The hand full of people who complain probably stand out a lot more than the rest. Either way, why get so heated about this whole debate? It's hard to tell how seriously you're taking it, but you seem pretty po'd about the xiaou guy. At the end of the day, I bet that guy doesn't even care what people say (notice how he ignores the comments he doesn't like). If you're not annoyed by all of this maybe I just read into your commenting too much, but I know this stuff tends to get poeple pretty aggravated. I just hope you realize that the rest of us think you're doing a great job, and that's probably worth more than one annoying guy. Many of us appreciate your work, and many of us wish we had the skills to help out.
dr phill -Shatered
Haze:
--- Quote from: shateredsoul on January 10, 2011, 02:55:18 am ---Haze, I think many people have expressed their gratitude for your work.. many more than those who have complained or picked on the mame dev team. As humans, I do think we tend to notice the negative more than the positive. The hand full of people who complain probably stand out a lot more than the rest. Either way, why get so heated about this whole debate? It's hard to tell how seriously you're taking it, but you seem pretty po'd about the xiaou guy. At the end of the day, I bet that guy doesn't even care what people say (notice how he ignores the comments he doesn't like). If you're not annoyed by all of this maybe I just read into your commenting too much, but I know this stuff tends to get poeple pretty aggravated. I just hope you realize that the rest of us think you're doing a great job, and that's probably worth more than one annoying guy. Many of us appreciate your work, and many of us wish we had the skills to help out.
dr phill -Shatered
--- End quote ---
I'm not that pissed off, I think you overestimate the amount of time I spend writing the replies, I type fast and can be getting on with other things at the same time, usually coding / fixing bugs / working on things I care about ;-)
It just astounds me that there can be that much misinformation out there, and so little respect for the wishes of the actual developers involved in the project from certain parties who aren't involved at all but still seem to think they know everything. I'm far from saying everybody here is a hairbrained moron!
If support for the original controls ever happens, it will happen because somebody did it properly, in a minimal impact way while leaving the existing functionality alone completely. There will be no guarantee it works, and if people moan about it, then support will probably just be ripped straight out. It's not something I'm going to lose any sleep over because I know the important stuff has been done, documented and preserved and the changes being asked for can be made long after the dev team hit their 70s and everything is controlled with the mind alone ;-)
In the meantime, I'll continue to work on the stuff that actually matters, and needs doing, and yes, that includes Mahjong games.
..and for anybody who really still thinks classic style games died in the 80s, there are even some interesting ones from the 00s, oh, and this won't work until 0.141u1.
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