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the state of mame
Haze:
--- Quote from: ark_ader on January 05, 2011, 04:56:57 pm ---That is total pants.
Cube Quest was very complex, but it got done. Philip Bennett and Joe Magiera did an exceptional job.
There are plenty of inactive platforms like in .84 that could see some accuracy, than to go romping off and add all those crap Mahjong {sp} games you guys just love to bloat Mame with. :banghead:
--- End quote ---
Yeah, there are complex platforms emulated, plenty of them, but the devs are more interested in the older ones. Cube Quest is utterly unique, and something interesting to work on.
Golden Tee 2k2 is complex, but far less interesting from a hardware perspective; much like the games that run on x86 architecture and haven't seen much attention (Hydro Thunder and the like) It's going to take a dev with genuine interest in those platforms to figure them out. I think Hydro Thunder was probably one of the best arcade games released, because it offered pure *fun* and decent value for money (unlike many which came after it) BUT, the hardware, it scares me, it's not something I can personally deal with. The x86 platform is quite honestly an abomination and utmost respect has to go to the DosBox guys and others for producing anything event remotely playable.
The hardware used is complex, but, at the same time boring. It's not fun to work on, it's like grinding.
Haze:
--- Quote from: RandyT on January 05, 2011, 06:30:37 pm ---
--- Quote from: ark_ader on January 05, 2011, 04:56:57 pm ---Exactly. Your products are Mame orientated. You have contributed nothing to the Project which has fed your site with orders for your innovated products like Turbo Twist and the Key Wiz. I'm one of those happy customers. I think they are great, but I also donate to the Mame cause whenever I can. I believe you can have your cake and pay for it in advance, as it will get tastier over time. Maybe it is time to dig deep and offer some cash towards the next auction eh Randy? Could be the perfect marketing ploy for 2011. ;D
--- End quote ---
I'd like to, but unfortunately, this is one of those lines it does no-one (meaning the MAME Devs, nor GGG) any good to cross. I support this site (in more ways than one) which helps to expose more people to the cause, which in turn helps the MAME team get what they want and/or need. There are plenty of other folks in this community who can say the same thing. You don't necessarily have to give cash to buy PCB's to be helpful (although I understand why it is preferred.) I have my own high R&D costs to worry about getting back from a small market such as this one, and I don't get donations to offset them. But if anyone would like to .... 8)
RandyT
--- End quote ---
Well if it means anything I'm happier to see adverts for your site, where you've put genuine work into the products you create than random people offering lousy ROM DVDs for 5000% markup.
While the team obviously can't go out of their way to support anything special it's clear your business is a genuine one, and not one that *relies* on MAME.
I'm unlikely to buy your products, because I'm a developer, and whatever people might say here I am genuinely satisfied with using a generic pad for that. I'm not even AGAINST people creating specialist builds for custom controllers, it's just not a primary goal of the project to support them. At the same time of course, I'm not expecting you to provide all the active developers with your controls, at cost to you, just to support this.
The HotRod (or was it x-arcade) guys tried this years ago, as did the TopGun guys, by sending sample products to developers and expecting them to support it. In the end the other developers (and newer developers) just got fed up with this because there was a bunch of unmaintainable code they could no longer debug or support because they didn't have the hardware to do so, and requiring specialist hardware as an entry requirement for developing the software is ridiculous.
nick3092:
--- Quote from: TechDante on January 04, 2011, 10:16:40 pm ---
with all the different types of games with their own controller setup/special controller it would be simply impossible to try and incorporate them all into a controll panel. it would end up dominating any cab that tried it was connected to. when people build their cabnets they have to balance between authenticity and usability, depending on what type of games they want to play.
--- End quote ---
Not impossible. Ever consider a modular CP? That's what I built. I want as many realistic controls as possible. I even went as far as buying a yoke from Dave to accomplish my goal. For me, the nostalgia is in the controls as much as it is in the game.
Does that mean I'm going to bash the devs for not supporting all original controllers? No. I would love to see it, but I'm not going to going to argue and make demands of the devs. I appreciate everything the devs have done.
Now, I have zero programming background. So I don't know how or if it's feasible at all. But could there be a generic interface or API to allow people to easily write an interface without having to modify the core code in MAME? It may be unmaintainable. Or it may be just as much work as patching the code. I don't know. Just throwing it out there.
Eitherway, I would like to thank Haze and all the other devs (past, present, and future) for all they have done to preserve these games.
abaraba:
--- Quote from: Haze ---No, I consider it complete as far as the goals of the project are concerned.
--- End quote ---
What the ...?
- Goal of the project is to document/emulate 'inner workings', YES?
- Ability to read authentic controls is part of the 'inner workings', NO?
--- Quote from: Haze ---The features you mention are features all designed to keep it user friendly, so that people do actually make use of it, so that it does actually get tested, so bugs do actually get found and so that it can continue to be further developed.
--- End quote ---
Making it 'user friendly' at expense of 'accuracy' is not only contrary to MAME goals, but is also promoting piracy. Those are not user interface features, they have nothing to do with being 'user friendly'. Those features only serve one single purpose, which is to play & ENJOY the games, as opposed to play & TEST. -- The goal of MAME is to make games look more attractive for average PC user, or to document inner workings of those PCBs, make up your mind.
--- Quote from: Haze ---If nobody used MAME it would be YEARS behind where it is now simply due to lack of feedback.
--- End quote ---
You got your "feedback" - authentic controls should be supported/emulated as important part of inner workings of authentic hardware, just like authentic resolutions and frame-rates.
--- Quote ---I'm not changing the subject, I'm using it as an example of why supporting MAME running on CURRENT platforms with CURRENT hardware is more important than trying to hack in support for legacy garbage.
--- End quote ---
Authentic controls, resolutions and frame rates are "legacy garbage" for you? Funny to hear that since MAME is still embarrassingly struggling with visual artifacts such as 'scroll tearing'.
Haze:
--- Quote from: abaraba on January 05, 2011, 10:08:03 pm ---
--- Quote from: Haze ---No, I consider it complete as far as the goals of the project are concerned.
--- End quote ---
What the ...?
- Goal of the project is to document/emulate 'inner workings', YES?
- Ability to read authentic controls is part of the 'inner workings', NO?
--- End quote ---
correct
--- Quote from: abaraba on January 05, 2011, 10:08:03 pm ---
--- Quote from: Haze ---The features you mention are features all designed to keep it user friendly, so that people do actually make use of it, so that it does actually get tested, so bugs do actually get found and so that it can continue to be further developed.
--- End quote ---
Making it 'user friendly' at expense of 'accuracy' is not only contrary to MAME goals, but is also promoting piracy. Those are not user interface features, they have nothing to do with being 'user friendly'. Those features only serve one single purpose, which is to play & ENJOY the games, as opposed to play & TEST. -- The goal of MAME is to make games look more attractive for average PC user, or to document inner workings of those PCBs, make up your mind.
--- End quote ---
The primary goal is to accurately document and emulate the components a PCB to a degree which would be indistinguishable from the original hardware by ANY piece of software running on that board. 'Creating an accurate emulation of the PCB'
To create an accurate emulator requires users to be running it and using it on a daily basis in order to generate bug reports etc. To have users requires it to be user friendly and enjoyable to use. For this reason features which make it user friendly and enjoyable exist. There is no excuse to develop software which is NOT user friendly on purpose.
How do you know if your emulation is flawed, or if a driver has regressed if nobody is using your emulator because you went out of your way to make it non-user friendly?
Ergo to achieve the primary goal of the project it must also be user friendly.
Again, is this simple concept so hard to understand?
You are attempting to redefine 'accuracy' to be something that the development team DO NOT believe it to be. This is not your project, you do not decide this type of things. Others might argue that it can't be accurate unless everything is emulated at gate level, again, if you approached the team with that argument you would be told the same thing.
--- Quote from: abaraba on January 05, 2011, 10:08:03 pm ---
--- Quote from: Haze ---If nobody used MAME it would be YEARS behind where it is now simply due to lack of feedback.
--- End quote ---
You got your "feedback" - authentic controls should be supported/emulated as important part of inner workings of authentic hardware, just like authentic resolutions and frame-rates.
--- End quote ---
This is a minority viewpoint, and is not considered important. Does this need repeating again? This specific feedback has been acknowledged. Your reply is 'we don't care, it's not in the project goals, nor does it help attain them'
--- Quote from: abaraba on January 05, 2011, 10:08:03 pm ---
--- Quote ---I'm not changing the subject, I'm using it as an example of why supporting MAME running on CURRENT platforms with CURRENT hardware is more important than trying to hack in support for legacy garbage.
--- End quote ---
Authentic controls, resolutions and frame rates are "legacy garbage" for you? Funny to hear that since MAME is still embarrassingly struggling with visual artifacts such as 'scroll tearing'.
--- End quote ---
MAME has to work with what modern hardware is available. Scroll tearing doesn't bother me, most modern software has it. Current hardware can only support limited refresh rates. It's just something you have to accept. I don't see it as an issue. Again if somebody wants to make a build which works with older hardware they're welcome to.. but simply getting a CRT monitor is becoming harder and harder and having a version of MAME which is better suited to them isn't going to reverse that trend. Even the main manufacturers of these things, who serve a bigger community than you could ever hope to be have pulled out because producing them is no longer economical.
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