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the state of mame

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ErikRuud:

--- Quote from: Xiaou2 on January 04, 2011, 07:28:30 pm ---
 But ehh, I dont like to Generalize. 


--- End quote ---
Then why did you?

Malenko:
I just dont get how the software guys are responsible for the interface hardware.  :dunno

Also, most "specialty controls" were gimmicks, like the bike handles for paper boy. Was the game neater with them? Hells yeah. Is it needed to play the game? not really.

abaraba:

--- Quote from: Haze ---I don't consider it broken, I don't consider it to need fixing.

--- End quote ---

Let's call it "incomplete" then. Do you agree emulation is *incomplete* without support for authentic controls, and so that it eventually needs to be properly documented/emulated too?



--- Quote from: Haze ---It's designed to be developer friendly, for developers to use, and easy testing on a standard PC so that we get good bug reports, for things we do consider bugs and want to fix.  We've covered this already.

--- End quote ---

No. Stretching, blurring and filtering, or anyhow changing animation frames is not only unrelated to documenting "inner workings", but is also of no help or relevance to developers, what so ever. Unless, their goal is to satisfy "nostalgia feel" when playing games on their PC, which directly contradicts the statement how "playing the games is only a side-effect".


What do you propose scan-lines, stretching, blurring and filtering have to do with testing?



--- Quote from: Haze ---The failure of projects like AdvanceMAME simply show that trying to cater for a tiny (in comparison) bunch of users, by writing code which is untestable and unmaintainable by the majority DOES NOT WORK.

--- End quote ---

What do you think AdvanceMAME fails in, what feature/functionality do you think is missing, or not done properly? AdvanceMAME did not fail, it got COMPLETED. As far as I know all the bootleg multi-game boards use AdvanceMAME, which ultimately confirms it is actually the best multiple arcade emulator out there.


MAME is not able to accurately document/preserve games, i.e. 'reference inner workings', because it is not able to actually emulate and output authentic resolution and refresh rates. Attacking AdvanceMAME can not change that, it only makes me laugh as a poor attempt to change the subject.



--- Quote from: Haze ---Half the reason AdvanceMAME went into a state of disrepair is because they had no way of properly integrating new features needed once MAME started actually emulating framerate and resolution changes at run-time, even on Windows you need to manually scale lines to work with mid-screen res changes, because modern hardware simply doesn't do it.

--- End quote ---

Again, what feature do you imagine is missing or not properly done in AdvanceMEME? Why would anyone integrate any more new games that can't run on any hardware anyway, or add any more mainstream MAME nonsense, why keep fixing what's not broken?



--- Quote from: Haze ---MAME is trying to emulate things of the past on a modern platform, not drag parts of them along with it.

--- End quote ---

Or, you could say: - by attracting to many wanna be programmers and letting them freely fiddle with MAME you now have bloated MAME that can not run properly without "modern platform".

RayB:

--- Quote from: Malenko on January 05, 2011, 10:34:45 am ---I just dont get how the software guys are responsible for the interface hardware.  :dunno

Also, most "specialty controls" were gimmicks, like the bike handles for paper boy. Was the game neater with them? Hells yeah. Is it needed to play the game? not really.

--- End quote ---
Uh, yes actually. That was a rather foolish thing to say.  ::)

Haze:

--- Quote from: abaraba on January 05, 2011, 11:40:52 am ---
--- Quote from: Haze ---I don't consider it broken, I don't consider it to need fixing.

--- End quote ---

Let's call it "incomplete" then. Do you agree emulation is *incomplete* without support for authentic controls, and so that it eventually needs to be properly documented/emulated too?

--- End quote ---

No, I consider it complete as far as the goals of the project are concerned.  If somebody wants to extend those goals further with their own project they're welcome to.


--- Quote from: abaraba on January 05, 2011, 11:40:52 am ---
--- Quote from: Haze ---It's designed to be developer friendly, for developers to use, and easy testing on a standard PC so that we get good bug reports, for things we do consider bugs and want to fix.  We've covered this already.

--- End quote ---

No. Stretching, blurring and filtering, or anyhow changing animation frames is not only unrelated to documenting "inner workings", but is also of no help or relevance to developers, what so ever. Unless, their goal is to satisfy "nostalgia feel" when playing games on their PC, which directly contradicts the statement how "playing the games is only a side-effect".


What do you propose scan-lines, stretching, blurring and filtering have to do with testing?

--- End quote ---

If you deliver a product which is basically absolutely horrible to use then nobody will use it, it won't get properly tested, it won't get properly adopted, and it will die.

The features you mention are features all designed to keep it user friendly, so that people do actually make use of it, so that it does actually get tested, so bugs do actually get found and so that it can continue to be further developed.  If nobody used MAME it would be YEARS behind where it is now simply due to lack of feedback.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out, that's why hardly any testing gets done of the Naomi driver because with current PC speeds it isn't practical.  Once PCs catch up I'd expect development on that to accelerate because people will be testing it and reporting issues.

The limits of what MameDev consider to be acceptable have been drawn.  That's why you see basic filters, but not ones which actually malform the graphics in an attempt to 'enhance' them like the HQ4x stuff, we leave that to other ports.  It's also why you won't see us running PSX games with the 3d rendered at 1900x1200 or whatever else.

One of the main problems with MESS (historically) is that despite being based on MAME it's been presented in a much less user-friendly way.  This meant nobody ended up using it and most drivers were left in a state miles behind the equivalent standalone emulators, which only served to act as a feedback loop, meaning even less people used it.
  

--- Quote from: abaraba on January 05, 2011, 11:40:52 am ---

--- Quote from: Haze ---The failure of projects like AdvanceMAME simply show that trying to cater for a tiny (in comparison) bunch of users, by writing code which is untestable and unmaintainable by the majority DOES NOT WORK.

--- End quote ---

What do you think AdvanceMAME fails in, what feature/functionality do you think is missing, or not done properly? AdvanceMAME did not fail, it got COMPLETED. As far as I know all the bootleg multi-game boards use AdvanceMAME, which ultimately confirms it is actually the best multiple arcade emulator out there.


MAME is not able to accurately document/preserve games, i.e. 'reference inner workings', because it is not able to actually emulate and output authentic resolution and refresh rates. Attacking AdvanceMAME can not change that, it only makes me laugh as a poor attempt to change the subject.



--- Quote from: Haze ---Half the reason AdvanceMAME went into a state of disrepair is because they had no way of properly integrating new features needed once MAME started actually emulating framerate and resolution changes at run-time, even on Windows you need to manually scale lines to work with mid-screen res changes, because modern hardware simply doesn't do it.

--- End quote ---

Again, what feature do you imagine is missing or not properly done in AdvanceMEME? Why would anyone integrate any more new games that can't run on any hardware anyway, or add any more mainstream MAME nonsense, why keep fixing what's not broken?

--- End quote ---

Your ignorance continues to astound me, there have been light-years worth of improvements to the emulation of even the classic systems since then, bugs fixed in both gameplay, visuals, audio output.  AdvanceMAME continues to be used on cabinets because it's the cheapest lowest cost solution with the lowest spec requirement for dirt-cheap chinese bootleggers.   Same reason it's always the 0.3x versions of MAME which get ported to handhelds, even if the emulation on them is atrocious compared to modern versions.  AdvanceMAME has failed, because it is dead, it can't take advantage of any of these REAL improvements, it probably couldn't even be made to.

You could write a novel on the number of things improved in MAME since 0.106 or whenever AdvanceMAME bit the dust.  The use of AdvanceMAME and MAME4All is why most of these chinese bootlegs are really crappy, with awful audio, and game-breaking glitches.

I'm not changing the subject, I'm using it as an example of why supporting MAME running on CURRENT platforms with CURRENT hardware is more important than trying to hack in support for legacy garbage.  Unless you have a team of people dedicated to doing *just that* your project will die, as AdvanceMAME did.  MameDev develop MAME in their own time because they enjoy doing it, I don't want to have to run a 20 year old OS just to develop it and test it.  You're lucky it still baseline even runs on Windows 9x at all, if it still does! (I don't know if anybody even tested it recently, I know MameUI doesn't tho)


--- Quote from: abaraba on January 05, 2011, 11:40:52 am ---
--- Quote from: Haze ---MAME is trying to emulate things of the past on a modern platform, not drag parts of them along with it.

--- End quote ---

Or, you could say: - by attracting to many wanna be programmers and letting them freely fiddle with MAME you now have bloated MAME that can not run properly without "modern platform".


--- End quote ---

No, we have the product we want and set out to create, an emulator for old systems that works on a modern platform and therefore can easily be developed, maintained and updated without the risk of the very emulator ending up being just as much of a relic as the hardware it's trying to emulate due the absurd requirements of having an outdated platform.  Bloated would be adding a billion options to support legacy garbage we can't test.  MAME is streamlined to run on modern hardware.  You seem to have your terms reversed.


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