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Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
Lilwolf:
btw, cant you just map the up to a button 3 and unmap up? Or did it do something else?
I, in the arcade, destroyed the first piece of hardware on this game. I was playing a game in college at a local convience center, the diaginals on th ejoystick wasn't registering, I hit it in anger a few times because it wouldn't go diagonal.. and the freakin joystick flew across the room... I turned and walked out... never went back... a jump button would have saved them a E clamp.
Xiaou2:
--- Quote ---Why should I do that for the sake of playing Robotron?
--- End quote ---
- If you are talking coordination, then its not for that.. but for sake of health.
--- Quote ---How does forcing me to learn a controller I can't learn somehow make it a better controller for Robotron?
That's completely counter-intuitive to me.
--- End quote ---
- Because Robotron is precisely balanced. You need all the help you can get. If say you played the game for 1yr with a gamepad... you might reach level 15. But, if you forced yourself to get used to the real controllers... in that same years time, you might reach level 50.
Why? Because the body can and does adapt given the time and effort. And since the Wico leafs have a definite mechanical advantage over the gampad analogs, you will always do better in the long run with them.
An analogy I was going to post earlier:
Playing a game with the incorrect controller, is like trying to race your VW Beetle against a Formula 1 racing car. Yes, you CAN drive and control the Beetle just fine... BUT, you will never really get very far. The F1 car will lap you 5 to 1.
Why? Because the F1 car is superior. It can accelerate faster, brake better, handle turns better, faster top speed..etc.
And since the Race was designed to be driven with F1 cars, not Beetles... then to use a Beetle in an F1 race is not at all what the creator of the race intended.
Back in the day when arcades were big, you didnt have a choice. You either adapted, or got your butt handed to you. And you know what people did? They put more money into it, until they were able to adapt to the levels needed to do well in the game.
Today, people can be lazy and cheat.. and since no money is on the line... a LOT of the real experience is lost. Your heart doesnt pound and shake thinking that this could be the end of that quarter. A Life has somehow lost its worth... and so people just dont get-it.
In order for you to get-it... and understand the games real value.. you have to at least get to a certain level of experience. If you cant make it to level 11 at least... then you pretty much dont get Robotron yet. And if and when you do get it.. as many younger / uncoordinated people have, then your opinions will start to change about the equipment and purpose of these specially made and well designed controllers.
Btw - My robotron playing buddy is not very well coordinated either.. and Ive just started to train him in Kungfu Actually... and his strength and coordination IS improving already, and its only been a month @ 2 days a week.
Haze:
--- Quote from: Xiaou2 on November 14, 2010, 07:26:38 pm ---
--- Quote ---Why should I do that for the sake of playing Robotron?
--- End quote ---
- If you are talking coordination, then its not for that.. but for sake of health.
--- Quote ---How does forcing me to learn a controller I can't learn somehow make it a better controller for Robotron?
That's completely counter-intuitive to me.
--- End quote ---
- Because Robotron is precisely balanced. You need all the help you can get. If say you played the game for 1yr with a gamepad... you might reach level 15. But, if you forced yourself to get used to the real controllers... in that same years time, you might reach level 50.
Why? Because the body can and does adapt given the time and effort. And since the Wico leafs have a definite mechanical advantage over the gampad analogs, you will always do better in the long run with them.
An analogy I was going to post earlier:
Playing a game with the incorrect controller, is like trying to race your VW Beetle against a Formula 1 racing car. Yes, you CAN drive and control the Beetle just fine... BUT, you will never really get very far. The F1 car will lap you 5 to 1.
Why? Because the F1 car is superior. It can accelerate faster, brake better, handle turns better, faster top speed..etc.
And since the Race was designed to be driven with F1 cars, not Beetles... then to use a Beetle in an F1 race is not at all what the creator of the race intended.
Back in the day when arcades were big, you didnt have a choice. You either adapted, or got your butt handed to you. And you know what people did? They put more money into it, until they were able to adapt to the levels needed to do well in the game.
Today, people can be lazy and cheat.. and since no money is on the line... a LOT of the real experience is lost. Your heart doesnt pound and shake thinking that this could be the end of that quarter. A Life has somehow lost its worth... and so people just dont get-it.
In order for you to get-it... and understand the games real value.. you have to at least get to a certain level of experience. If you cant make it to level 11 at least... then you pretty much dont get Robotron yet. And if and when you do get it.. as many younger / uncoordinated people have, then your opinions will start to change about the equipment and purpose of these specially made and well designed controllers.
Btw - My robotron playing buddy is not very well coordinated either.. and Ive just started to train him in Kungfu Actually... and his strength and coordination IS improving already, and its only been a month @ 2 days a week.
--- End quote ---
Again, your examples are completely crazy.
The difference between a dual shock analog stick and robotron's dual joysticks is NOTHING like the difference between a Beetle and an F1 car.
It's not even comparable. This is just about the most absurd example you've come up with yet.
The F1 car has a clear and very obvious advantage as far as performing the required function is concerned, but as far as the controllers are concerned this is virtually no difference, and it could easily be argued that the analog stick, due to only requiring smaller movements (the deadzone isn't that big, and it's a smaller device) will give you far tighter and more accurate control anyway. That's what I find. I'd actually say the dualshock was a better controller than the antiquated original design.
Also, take into account things like height, on a real Robotron cabinet it's incredibly uncomfortable for me to play because I'm too tall, and sat down I have no leg room. With a dualshock controller in the comfort of my own space I can play a much better game. The bottleneck of Robotron ability is not in the controls, but in your reactions, and ability to plan where you want to go / shoot. Using real controls, even if I could use them perfectly would not change that. I've never played the game with a dualshock and thought I died *because the controls sucked*. Every time I died it's because I made the wrong decision.
If it wasn't subjective this argument wouldn't exist in the first place. It's clearly *very* subjective.
abaraba:
--- Quote from: Haze ---If you feel the patch is wrong, submit another to undo it, with evidence supporting your case. Luigi obviously submitted it with sufficient evidence to support the application of the patch.
--- End quote ---
Ok, but first I want to know what majority here think about it. If the majority thinks the patch is ok, then the patch is ok - vox populi, vox dei.
Now, I'm afraid Luigi's "evidence" is simply 'operators manual', so let's start with your opinion - do you think 'operators manual' has any relevance to how MAME should emulate/preserve these games? Do *YOU* think the patch was wrong?
--- Quote ---(and yes, MAME has emulated 'cabinets' at a certain level from day 1, disallowing opposite directions to be pressed at the same time and such because doing so will break quite a lot of games, eg. one of the Metal Slug games will reset if you press left and right at the same time! Do you think there would be any less bitching if we decided to remove that 'cabinet' emulation so people could reset the game by accidentally pressing the left and right cursor keys at the same time?
--- End quote ---
Yes, I think it is hideous to play these games on a keyboard, so I do think that feature is completely unnecessary as once properly wired emulator computer should run without these problems, just like the actual PCB.
It is ridiculous to emulate "cabinets". So, they are going to record the sound from some cabinet and adjust the pitch in MAME to be like this particular recording when you play it on your PC speakers. But, when you put this back in an actual cabinet it is not going to sound properly, which is why you need to emulate what PCB outputs/inputs, not some "cabinet".
Agree, disagree?
The funny part is that I can see how the difference can appear subtle to baby developers, but one only needs to think about emulating wood, plastic and metal sticks to realize this is not stuff to be emulated by software. Closest thing to "emulating" cabinet is to make it out of cardboard, or something, nothing else makes sense really. Actually, emulating CRT with scan-lines and such is the only one of these 'cabinet emulation' *hacks* that makes sense due to unavailability of arcade monitors, still it's quite irrelevant to preservation/emulation of the games.
--- Quote from: CheffoJeffo ---...stupid discussion about a 3rd button that never existed in the arcade
--- End quote ---
What is the meaning of "in the arcade"? Are you talking about some particular cabinet, about wood and plastic, or about the PCB?
"Button" as a 'plastic thing on a control panel' did not exist, but did it exist on a PCB? What do you think is more important for emulation/preservation of the game?
--- Quote ---I am curious how the OP is going to wire up that 3rd button on the board he just bought
--- End quote ---
Yes, that's the real question. There are two free pins on a Konami harness, so I'm going to try that, but I was hoping to get the answer before the PCB arrives.
--- Quote ---... but he has a bigger problem with that Popeye board, audio amplification and video inversion.
--- End quote ---
I have no idea, will you tell me about it?
Haze:
--- Quote from: abaraba on November 14, 2010, 08:04:46 pm ---
--- Quote from: Haze ---If you feel the patch is wrong, submit another to undo it, with evidence supporting your case. Luigi obviously submitted it with sufficient evidence to support the application of the patch.
--- End quote ---
Ok, but first I want to know what majority here think about it. If the majority thinks the patch is ok, then the patch is ok - vox populi, vox dei.
Now, I'm afraid Luigi's "evidence" is simply 'operators manual', so let's start with your opinion - do you think 'operators manual' has any relevance to how MAME should emulate/preserve these games? Do *YOU* think the patch was wrong?
--- End quote ---
I imagine the operator manual was significant in the decision, as it shows how the game was meant to be used. Cabinets of actual photos were probably also used.
Personally, I disagree and don't think the patch should have been applied, just the button unmapped by default, but some people consider forcing a button to be unmapped by default to be a worse hack.
Historically most of Luigi's submissions I dealt with myself came across as clueless, and I rejected them, and was heavily criticized (sometimes by people here) for doing so. It appears this one was accepted at some point, and now people are being criticized for accepting it.
--- Quote from: abaraba on November 14, 2010, 08:04:46 pm ---
--- Quote ---(and yes, MAME has emulated 'cabinets' at a certain level from day 1, disallowing opposite directions to be pressed at the same time and such because doing so will break quite a lot of games, eg. one of the Metal Slug games will reset if you press left and right at the same time! Do you think there would be any less bitching if we decided to remove that 'cabinet' emulation so people could reset the game by accidentally pressing the left and right cursor keys at the same time?
--- End quote ---
Yes, I think it is hideous to play these games on a keyboard, so I do think that feature is completely unnecessary as once properly wired emulator computer should run without these problems, just like the actual PCB.
It is ridiculous to emulate "cabinets". So, they are going to record the sound from some cabinet and adjust the pitch in MAME to be like this particular recording when you play it on your PC speakers. But, when you put this in an actual cabinet it is not going to sound properly, which is why you need to emulate what PCB outputs/inputs, not some "cabinet".
Agree, disagree?
--- End quote ---
MAME is developed on a keyboard, and the majority of users use a keyboard. The primary concern is that it works for the developers, otherwise it simply doesn't get developer, and the secondary concern is that it works for the majority of users, so that we don't get false bug reports. My preference when playing / testing MAME is a keyboard, for some games which are exceptionally tricky with a keyboard I'll use a dualshock pad, or a 360 controller. If those cases don't work, I can't develop the software and I can't test the software. Your examples and arguments are as ridiculous as most of the others presented in this thread, and border on trolling.
Do I think there could / should be a layer of abstraction which would allow such things to be turned off, yes, I've stated this. I'm not about to program one tho, because I don't think it's that important.
I think there should be an option whereby all inputs, be they dipswitches or joysticks need to be fed in externally, and MAME does no processing at all of the inputs, and the only thing that works is exactly what the original software is expecting. That would be unusable for 99.99% of the population tho, and you couldn't expect any help at all from the developers in using MAME in such a mode, because none of the developers will have used it, or tested it in that mode, much as the external LED signaling is handled right now. Should MAME emulate pinball tables and other mostly mechanical games they would run exclusively in this mode, because simulation of the actual tables is nothing to do with MAME (it's too complex to even attempt unlike the simple cabinet features which are handled)
If MAME did not emulate some kind of cabinet responses then some games (I believe Afterburner comes to mind) would not function at all, because they expect to test, and have valid responses from the cabinet motors or control devices. It is therefore absolutely necessary that MAME emulates some cabinet features behind the scenes.
--- Quote from: abaraba on November 14, 2010, 08:04:46 pm ---The funny part is that I can see how the difference can appear subtle to baby developers, but one only needs to think about emulating wood, plastic and metal sticks to realize this is not stuff to be emulated by software. Closest thing to "emulating" cabinet is to make it out of cardboard, or something, nothing else makes sense really. Actually, emulating CRT with scan-lines and such is the only one of these 'cabinet emulation' *hacks* that makes sense due to unavailability of arcade monitors, still it's quite irrelevant to preservation/emulation of the games.
--- Quote from: CheffoJeffo ---...stupid discussion about a 3rd button that never existed in the arcade
--- End quote ---
What is the meaning of "in the arcade"? Are you talking about some particular cabinet, about wood and plastic, or about the PCB?
"Button" as a 'plastic thing on a control panel' did not exist, but did it exist on a PCB? What do you think is more important for emulation/preservation of the game?
--- Quote ---I am curious how the OP is going to wire up that 3rd button on the board he just bought
--- End quote ---
Yes, that's the real question. There are two free pins on a Konami harness, so I'm going to try that, but I was hoping to get the answer before the PCB arrives.
--- Quote ---... but he has a bigger problem with that Popeye board, audio amplification and video inversion.
--- End quote ---
I have no idea, will you tell me about it?
--- End quote ---
If you're going to continue to insult the developers by referring to them as 'baby developers' you will not be taken seriously, period. I remind you, it's not your project, it needs to work primarily for the developers, and main user base, not you. That is the mature considered view of a development team who have been working on the emulator for longer than you've been using it.
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