Pinball mechanical problems

[Chris]

Well, my 1972 Fan-Tas-Tic isn't in as good a mechanical shape as I thought.  Problems I've seen so far:

• Nothing worth 10 or 50 points registers on the scoreboard.  When I hit a 50 point rollover I can hear something under the playfield advance 5 times but the 10 point reel doesn't advance.  This is for all players, so it's not just a problem in the player 1 reels. FIXED
• Once player 2 has the ball, he's loathe to give it up.  Only after several balls have drained will player 3 get a turn. FIXED
• On the roulette wheel, two of the rewards are reversed.  I thought at first maybe the label wasn't oriented properly but all the other rewards are correct. FIXED
• The jet bumpers always award double the score they're supposed to. FIXED
• The left outlane ballsaver only triggers occasionally, and when it does trigger it sticks until physically pushed back into place. FIXED
• When resetting the scores, player 2's score sticks at 8000. FIXED
• One of the stand-up targets won't register. FIXED

Time to hit Marvin3M to see if I can figure these things out...

[Kevin Mullins]

EM's are fun to work on in my opinion.
But each one can be unique as far as troubleshooting goes.
Sounds like you have alot of switch cleaning to do to start with.
Alot of times there are multiple switches that need to activate in order to perform one final function. (like score reel resetting) If one switch is not quite right by either being dirty or mis-adjusted then it can cause problems elsewhere.

Should be a good project though for sure.   

[ChadTower]

That sort of thing, 95% of the time, will be cleared up by the general shop job that marvin3m's site will have you walk through.  So long as nothing is missing or broken those things get exposed in that process.

[Chris]

Well I may have found one of my issues.. there's a small piece of cardboard folded over and jammed into one of the switches on the 10 point relay.  I'm guessing someone's wife got sick of hearing the 10 point chime.   

[later]

Ah, I see... with the cardboard removed, the 10 point coil is constantly energized, causing the 10 point reel solenoid to buzz as it's engaged constantly.  So there's a switch out or a short somewhere.

[ChadTower]

First thing that comes to mind is to check the NC or NO status of all of the switches in that circuit... make sure they are all right.  Take an NO switch and NC it and you end up with that issue.

[Kevin Mullins]

Check all your 10 point targets for a switch that's stuck closed.
Like Chad mentioned, ya probably have a switch that is supposed to be NO but is stuck/mis-adjusted closed.

I've solved many a problems by simply manually opening and closing switches by hand to see what effect it activates. (or de-activates in the case of your 10 point coil)

Don't forget the mutlitude of switches in the head box also.
Those can cause many problems, anything from number of balls played, to score resetting issue, etc. (mostly functions not directly related to a target on the playfield)

[ChadTower]

And just in case, don't go doing that with your fingers.  ZZzap.

[Chris]

I've been going through the switches (with the machine unplugged) with my multimeter.  I thought I'd found a shorted switch on the 10 relay and started looking for others... but then I noticed that the meter was showing continuity on almost EVERY switch wherther it was open or closed!  Is there something I don't understand about these, or do I have a major short somewhere?

So all I accomplished today was to replace a couple of stripped screws on my left flipper.  I did notice that all the coils still have their original metal sleeves.

My balls came in the mail today so I'm sudenly eager to button this thing back up and get playing...

[ChadTower]

My balls came in the mail today

[Kevin Mullins]

My balls came in the mail today

 

[Chris]

My balls came in the mail today

Figured you'd jump on that... 

I did go back and look one more time last night and hopefully I found the source of the player 2 scoring problems... there was a switch on the thousands reel that should have been normally closed but it was open all the time, and it was the thousands digit that had trouble scoring or resetting.

Here's a question for all the experienced pinball people: I've been doing all this work with the playfield propped up.  Is this how you normally work on a game, or am I supposed to be removing the giant motherboard from the bottom of the cabinet and working on it on a bench?

[ChadTower]

Depends on the problem, really, but whichever is more appropriate for any given problem.  Obviously there's no way you can debug this issue outside of the cabinet without taking everything out.

[WareWolF]

No trouble working on it in the cab but you might want to lift the playfield up fully vertical and lean it against the backbox if it is going to be up for any length of time.  The prop bar may damage the playfield from the stress of it's weight being balanced un evenly on only one side.

[Chris]

I don't understand why they didn't put prop rods on both sides... it would be such a simple solution.

[Chris]

I did go back and look one more time last night and hopefully I found the source of the player 2 scoring problems... there was a switch on the thousands reel that should have been normally closed but it was open all the time, and it was the thousands digit that had trouble scoring or resetting.

Fixing that switch just makes the score motor turn forever on reset.  ARGH! Every problem I fix I uncover another one, as if the switches I'm fixing were intentionally screwed up as a band-aid fix against another problem.

I figured out how to pop out the reel mechanisms... it would be so easy to adjust them if they had quick disconnects instead of all being soldered down.

[shardian]

as if the switches I'm fixing were intentionally screwed up as a band-aid fix against another problem.

BINGO! 

[Chris]

as if the switches I'm fixing were intentionally screwed up as a band-aid fix against another problem.

BINGO! 

Heh.  I can understand that, because I'm seriously tempted to back out my fixes and just make the thing playable.

[shardian]

http://www.sandbamusements.com/king_kool_restoration.htm

Give that a read. Maybe it will get you motivated and give you a streamlined path to restore this thing, and maybe give you a few pointers.

[ChadTower]

My recommendation is just to start at the beginning of marvin3m's EM rehab process and do all of it.  It will very likely fix all of these issues.

[Chris]

http://www.sandbamusements.com/king_kool_restoration.htm

Give that a read. Maybe it will get you motivated and give you a streamlined path to restore this thing, and maybe give you a few pointers.

That is a good read.  Thank you for the pointer!

[Chris]

My recommendation is just to start at the beginning of marvin3m's EM rehab process and do all of it.  It will very likely fix all of these issues.

Yeah, I've been impatient and trying to just jump to the obvious problems.  Impatience and EM's don't seem to go together.

[ChadTower]

Impatience and shopping out anything is a bad combination.  A good shop job heads off 90% of problems before you even find them.

[Chris]

I finally found the source of the 10 point short... one of the stand-up switches behind the rubber below the flippers was shorting.  I also found a stuck EOS switch on the ball return kickback coil so it's working now. Theoretically it's pretty playable now at least for 1 player.

[Chris]

I've also fixed the problem with the captive ball spinner having two rewards reversed... I just desoldered and swapped the wires for the two rewards from the schematic.

My biggest remaining mechanical problems are:

• In a 3 or 4 player game, the game gets stuck on player 2 and rarely moves to player 3.  In a two-player game things progress normally.  Very odd.
• Player 2's thousands reel wont reset. It has two switches stuck open, but when I adjust them "correctly" the coil energizes constantly when power is on.
• One of the stand up switches doesn't work. FIXED
• Still need to repair the mangled coin switches.

I also have a lot of lamp sockets that need rehabilitating, and next time I order anything I'm going to get replacement coil sleeves.  At this point, though, it's playable as a single-player game on free play.  Thank goodness for Marvin3M!

[Kevin Mullins]

• In a 3 or 4 player game, the game gets stuck on player 2 and rarely moves to player 3.  In a two-player game things progress normally.  Very odd.
• Player 2's thousands reel wont reset. It has two switches stuck open, but when I adjust them "correctly" the coil energizes constantly when power is on.

Check the "Player Unit Disc" and the "Ball Count Unit Disc" out carefully. They may need cleaning or adjusting as well. Something may not be contacting correctly there to change players in four player mode.

• Player 2's thousands reel wont reset. It has two switches stuck open, but when I adjust them "correctly" the coil energizes constantly when power is on.

Check the 1-2 Reset Relay and make sure it's N.O. after reset on the corresponding switch.

• One of the stand up switches doesn't work.

Not much to those. Maybe ohm the wiring and look for a bad connection or break.

Of course these are just starter points on troubleshooting. Ya still might have to trace things out one way or another from those points to find the culprit switch or cantact that is causing the problem.
Typical EM stuff..... you either love em' or hate em'.   

P.S. I'm assuming you have both the manual and schematic from IPBD online right?

[Chris]

• One of the stand up switches doesn't work.

Not much to those. Maybe ohm the wiring and look for a bad connection or break.

It turned out to just need a much more agressive cleaning than I had been doing.  The contacts were pretty black.

P.S. I'm assuming you have both the manual and schematic from IPBD online right?

Yes.  Unfortunately some key diagrams aren't there such as the score motor and scoring drums. I wonder if there was a separate manual for parts that were common to all Williams games?

[skippy]

Spend 15 bucks and buy the manual/schematic it's worth it.  The best way to get one of these em's working is to go through clay's tutorial at Marvin's, it will usually fix 95% of your problems.  The player issues sound like problems with the player unit stepper, rebuild it per the marvin website.

[Chris]

• Player 2's thousands reel wont reset. It has two switches stuck open, but when I adjust them "correctly" the coil energizes constantly when power is on.

Check the 1-2 Reset Relay and make sure it's N.O. after reset on the corresponding switch.

Good call.... that was it!  Thank you!

[Chris]

• In a 3 or 4 player game, the game gets stuck on player 2 and rarely moves to player 3.  In a two-player game things progress normally.  Very odd.
• Player 2's thousands reel wont reset. It has two switches stuck open, but when I adjust them "correctly" the coil energizes constantly when power is on.

Check the "Player Unit Disc" and the "Ball Count Unit Disc" out carefully. They may need cleaning or adjusting as well. Something may not be contacting correctly there to change players in four player mode.

Right again!  This time the problem is mechanical, not electrical.  There's an arm that pulls down, then moves the wheel as it puls back up, and after player 2 it doesn't have the strength to pull it up.  Not only is there 25 years of grease on the mechanism, but it looks suspiciously like a spring is missing.

[Chris]

it looks suspiciously like a spring is missing.

Well, based on this picture from the repair document, it looks like there's not supposed to be a spring there after all:



So I guess I'll just take it apart and clean all those pivots.

[Chris]

OK, after some serious cleaning and some Teflon lubrication, it seems to move from player to player consistently.  At this point, I WOULD have been done, but now the player up lights won't light (other than player 1), so I must have knocked a switch out of adjustment while cleaning.  I'll tackle that in the morning; once I find that, all of my mechanical problems are FIXED!

I have some coil sleeves on the way to replace the original metal sleeves in the main coils; once those are replaced and the light problem I just created is fixed, I'm calling it done.

[shardian]

I should have gotten an EM. At least you can SEE your problems.

[Kevin Mullins]

but now the player up lights won't light (other than player 1), so I must have knocked a switch out of adjustment while cleaning. 

Well, at least you know that the problem is in that same Player Unit you just worked on. All the Player Up Lites are switched and run from that same unit.   

P.S. Good Idea to change the metal sleeves out on the coils. 

[Chris]

So close....

I haven't found the cause of the dead player lights yet; the only clue I have is that the Player 1 Up light will come on occasionally.

I have also discovered that the Player 4 10,000 reel does not advance when the 1000 reel rolls over.  If I advance it by hand, though, it will reset on game start.  The switches on the 1000 reel look okay.

I put the ball into play for the first time today and discovered something else: all this work is totally worth it.

[Chris]

I haven't found the cause of the dead player lights yet; the only clue I have is that the Player 1 Up light will come on occasionally.

I have also discovered that the Player 4 10,000 reel does not advance when the 1000 reel rolls over.  If I advance it by hand, though, it will reset on game start.  The switches on the 1000 reel look okay.

I think I've solved these last two problems with a thorough cleaning of the 1000 point switches and the player unit stepper wheel.  The player unit uses "snowshoe" contacts, and they were pretty cruddy and a bit stiff.  In fact, with the whole condition of the player unit I'm fortunate the game worked as well as it did.  Anyway, a good cleaning with fine sandpaper and alcohol on the flat contacts and individually cleaning each of the snowshoes with a flexstone and alcohol, followed by a touch of teflon lube on each shoe, seems to have improved things dramatically.

I may still find problems with things I haven't seen yet like extra ball awards or matches, which use the other steppers.  But for now, mechanically it's in perfect shape.  Thank you so much to everyone who provided guidance and advice!

[Chris]

Well, guess I'm not as done as I thought.

I decided to look into the credit system and coin switches.  After some work, I managed to get the coin wireforms and switches bent back into shape; they at least trigger the score motor when a coin drops through, but no credits register.  Starting a game doesn't decrement the credits either.  So it's time to look into just how this machine is set to "free play".

Looks like a previous owner took the direct approach to the problem:



Yup, he just cut the wire to the coil that reduces the credit count.  Okay, seems easy enough.  A little solder and heat shrink tubing later and it's happily decrementing credits.  Except it zeroes out at 14 credits.  Hmm.  Is the wheel on backwards?  Nope.  There are stops on the wheel to trigger switches that indicate whether credits are available and they're not where they're supposed to be.  A little adjustment later and I have a credit stepper that counts down to zero properly.  But it's a one way trip.

I checked out the coil that advances the wheel and it would barely move in its sleeve.  I had to remove the whole stepper assembly to get at the screws holding the coil stop so I could replace the coil sleeve.

Now things are getting weird:

• Putting in a quarter sometimes adds two credits, sometimes one credit, usually no credits.  But it always activates the score motor.
• Putting in a dime doesn't add a credit... it acts as if the game start button was pushed!
• Match always displays "20"... but it doesn't always actually match a 20.  When it does, the knocker activates but no credit is added.
• No credits are awarded for hitting the high score levels.

So I'm back in troubleshooting mode again.

[StephenH]

    * Putting in a quarter sometimes adds two credits, sometimes one credit, usually no credits.  But it always activates the score motor.

I wonder if it was supposed to add THREE credits, given that a dime was the lowest price coin, and 2 1/2 would be odd in those days.   This could be a problem with the credit stepper.


 * Putting in a dime doesn't add a credit... it acts as if the game start button was pushed!

Check the dime coin switch, and see if it is registering.  The switch could be bad possibly.


    * Match always displays "20"... but it doesn't always actually match a 20.  When it does, the knocker activates but no credit is added.

I wonder if this function was disabled with the "Free Play" because in EM, it is possible for "overflow" to cause things to reset to zero sometimes.   This would disable free play.   Check the wiring between credits and scoring.


* No credits are awarded for hitting the high score levels.

See Above


So I'm back in troubleshooting mode again.

[Chris]

I wonder if it was supposed to add THREE credits, given that a dime was the lowest price coin, and 2 1/2 would be odd in those days.   This could be a problem with the credit stepper.

The machine is set for two games for a quarter... it can go up to 7 per quarter.

I wonder if this function was disabled with the "Free Play" because in EM, it is possible for "overflow" to cause things to reset to zero sometimes.   This would disable free play.   Check the wiring between credits and scoring.

Possible... the match step-up coil isn't firing, and based on the state of the plunger and coil sleeve I'd say it hadn't fired for quite some time.  Not sure if it's another cut wire; the signal comes from the 10-point relay but all the switches there look correct.  I thought the coil might be burned out, seeing as the stepper was so gummed up the solenoid would have never moved it (works great after cleaning though), but the coil measures 12 ohms so I think it's probably good.

[Chris]

Just a quick update...

Not long after posting my last update, I started getting glaring looks from the wife about all the parts and supplies strewn about, so it was time to button it back up.  I never did repair the match or credit circuits, so when the machine runs out of credits I reach inside and gently turn the credit wheel back to maximum.  I'm tempted to go back and cut the wire to the credit solenoid again.  What I really need to do is put a switch in there, or better yet find one of the ancient jumper connectors that are in ther now.

I did do one last mechanical repair.  The lowest-pitch chime never worked and the other two barely worked.  I thought the coil on the non-working chime was broken, but when I started to tear it apart I realized that someone had oiled the coil sleeves!  The oil has soaked into the "beer seal" that was across the bottom of the assembly for the plungers to rest on, and one of them had essentially been "glued" in place by the old oil.  So it was time to take it all apart and clean it, and to avoid upsetting my wife I did all the work through the coin door rather than take the glass off again.  Wow, that was a pain...

I ordered new coil sleeves and chime grommets from http://marcospec.com.  The original grommets had melted and hardened ages ago, and as a repair someone had used small post rubbers in their place which had also worn and melted onto the chime bars.  So I scraped all the old rubber off the chime bars, cleaned the plungers with alcohol, replaced the beer seal and the coil sleeves, and started to put it back together. 

I ran into trouble with the grommets. I had two issues: with the grommets in place there was no way the chimes would fit back over their mounting posts, and for some reason I stupidly bought three grommets instead of six.  I solved this by cutting each grommet in half horizontally  and placing the grommet halves over the posts rather than inserting them into the chime bars.

Now, the chimes all worked... too well.  Hitting a target would ring a loud, clear chime tone that would hang in the air for 10-15 seconds.  Playing the machine for even a few minutes had my wife looking for a sledgehammer.  So I went back in and cut some squares of leftover beerseal, cut holes in the middle, and applied these to the top side of the chime bars to dampen the vibrations a bit.  That seemed to work well, muffling the tones enough to be playable without driving everyone crazy.