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Main => Everything Else => Topic started by: shponglefan on April 29, 2016, 10:32:09 pm

Title: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on April 29, 2016, 10:32:09 pm
Took delivery of an HTC Vive a couple days ago.  After playing for about 8+ hours now, I can safely say that this is the most impressive piece of technology I've ever tried.  And it's easily the single most revolutionary gaming device I've ever used.

It impossible to put into words what it feels like to be inside a video game.  Because that's exactly what it's like: you're inside the video game.  Everything I've tried in the past--stereoscopic glasses, triple monitor setups, 100 inch high def projector screens--nothing comes close to how completely immersive this is.

Case in point, I was playing a virtual mini-golf game.  I hit the ball causing it to bounce back to where I was standing.  I instinctively jumped out of the way to avoid the ball hitting me; the virtual ball that isn't even real.  My brain had been completely tricked.

The motion control in particular is exceptional.  It lends a level of intuition to gaming that I've never experienced outside of specialized controllers (i.e. driving wheels, etc).  For example, playing a zombie shooter, I found myself aiming down the pistol sight and closing one eye to aim.  In a regular video game this would require some button/mouse combo to execute.  In VR, I literally just aimed down the sights.  To not even have to think about how to do something like that is a revelation.  And the haptic feedback in the controllers add to the immersion even further.  Being able to physically feel virtual interactions is just bonkers.

The sense of scale and distance in VR is incredible.  To actually see characters and environments as life-sized... I can't even begin to describe what it's like.  In the aforementioned zombie game, both times I attempted to play it, it left me shaking in fear.  Being attacked by life-sized zombies and monsters is the most terrifying experience I've ever had in a game.  I can legitimately say this is the first time a game has made me fear for my personal safety.

The biggest drawback thus far is how exhausting this experience has been.  Playing the more action oriented games, I find myself sweating after a good half-hour or so.  I couldn't even imagine trying to do a marathon gaming session for several hours in a row.  But it's been worth it; so incredibly worth it.

I really hope this catches on; no other gaming experience comes close to this.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Nephasth on April 29, 2016, 10:38:13 pm
I have an LG G5. Bring on the VR porn!
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on April 29, 2016, 10:43:15 pm
I have an LG G5. Bring on the VR porn!

Tried that too  ;D

It's... kinda weird actually.  Like the uncanny valley of porn.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Slippyblade on April 29, 2016, 11:04:27 pm
Where'd you buy and how much?
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on April 29, 2016, 11:09:34 pm
Where'd you buy and how much?

Ordered directly from HTC (https://www.htcvive.com/ (https://www.htcvive.com/)).  I preordered back at the beginning of March.  They're currently backordered by about 2 months (current orders will ship in June).

Total cost was about $1300 Canadian (inc tax + shipping).  The price was the biggest sticking point and I nearly canceled my order a couple times.  Having now tried it, I'd order it again in a heartbeat.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ark_ader on April 30, 2016, 03:54:53 am
I have a Gear VR and I do like it, especially if I am on a flight, I get to watch all the films I'm not allowed to watch on a plane like castaway. 

Currently I am playing Elite dangerous, with voice attack and the hotas.  To be honest it is frickin awesome.  I just have to have a break every so often so I don't wreak it ralph all over it.   :lol:
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on April 30, 2016, 07:31:48 pm
Currently I am playing Elite dangerous, with voice attack and the hotas.  To be honest it is frickin awesome.  I just have to have a break every so often so I don't wreak it ralph all over it.   :lol:

I gotta get me some sit-down games like Elite: Dangerous to take a break from all the room-scale stuff.

Btw, are you talking about the Trustmaster HOTAS Warthog?  I was thinking about getting that for sim stuff; it looks badass.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on April 30, 2016, 11:10:13 pm
I really like the Lab, I would like to see it even get expanded on, it would be cool if it was even a portal for all other games and a way to see other Vive users walk around online. The long bow tower defense game I find particularly fun, it is way too short and leaves my wanting more.

Budget Cuts Demo is also a really good example on how to make a full game that feels right in VR

Space Pirates Trainer is a real fun arcade shooter.

So far those are probably my 3 go to games that I will show friends and family VR for the first time.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on May 01, 2016, 12:41:39 pm
Virtual mini golf?  You'd have to put a gun to my head to get me to play the real thing. 

And you paid $2k for the privilege?

Whatever floats your boat.

 :dunno
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on May 01, 2016, 01:03:06 pm
I really like the Lab, I would like to see it even get expanded on, it would be cool if it was even a portal for all other games and a way to see other Vive users walk around online. The long bow tower defense game I find particularly fun, it is way too short and leaves my wanting more.

I love that tower defense game in the Lab!  What impressed me most about it was how intuitive and natural it felt to shoot a bow-and-arrow in VR.  I really hope we see a full-length game come of that.

Xortex is incredibly fun too.  Just the feeling of playing a bullet hell shooter with little spaceships flying all around you is just bonkers.  Well, I'm sure you know what I'm talking about ;)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on May 01, 2016, 01:15:00 pm
Virtual mini golf?  You'd have to put a gun to my head to get me to play the real thing. 

And you paid $2k for the privilege?

Whatever floats your boat.

 :dunno

There's a wee bit more to VR than that, dude  ;)

Thus far, I've:

- Had a face-to-face encounter with an 80-foot blue whale
- Blasted robotic drones in a sci-fi spaceport while dodging lasers Matrix-style
- Explored a fantasy dungeon while physically dodging arrows and sword-fighting with skeletons
- Felt like a kid with a magical toyset as I stood above a miniature airport as tiny airplanes and helicopters flew around my head
- Nearly crapped my pants at coming face-to-face with life-sized zombies and monsters
- Zoomed through the solar system and just marveled at the sheer scale and majesty of it all; seeing a baseball sized Earth floating in front of my face and then scaling it up the size of a building completely blew my mind

This is the single coolest technological thing I've ever experienced.  It's like all the fantasy and sci-movies of my childhood brought to life.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Slippyblade on May 01, 2016, 04:06:13 pm
I just got one of those phone holder headsets.  My phone doesn't have a gyro, only accelerometers, so some things don't work right.  But I am actually pretty impressed with what I have gotten working.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Howard_Casto on May 01, 2016, 07:57:36 pm
Virtual mini golf?  You'd have to put a gun to my head to get me to play the real thing. 

And you paid $2k for the privilege?

Whatever floats your boat.

 :dunno

There's a wee bit more to VR than that, dude  ;)

Thus far, I've:

- Had a face-to-face encounter with an 80-foot blue whale
- Blasted robotic drones in a sci-fi spaceport while dodging lasers Matrix-style
- Explored a fantasy dungeon while physically dodging arrows and sword-fighting with skeletons
- Felt like a kid with a magical toyset as I stood above a miniature airport as tiny airplanes and helicopters flew around my head
- Nearly crapped my pants at coming face-to-face with life-sized zombies and monsters
- Zoomed through the solar system and just marveled at the sheer scale and majesty of it all; seeing a baseball sized Earth floating in front of my face and then scaling it up the size of a building completely blew my mind

This is the single coolest technological thing I've ever experienced.  It's like all the fantasy and sci-movies of my childhood brought to life.

I think you are going to have to admit that there is a lot of novelty going on there man.  You are excited about it now, but let's see how much you enjoy it in a few months time.  I've messed with the phone adaptors because ..... well .....  they are only 20 bucks and while stuff is certainly impressive, it isn't $2000 impressive.  There's the VR experience and then there is gaming.  VR is good for experiences, but it's a crap method of gaming for the reasons I've mentioned countless times in other threads... it just isn't ready yet.  Hey if you've got money to burn though I don't see the harm.  You could send the money to me though... I could find a better use for it.  ;)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on May 01, 2016, 09:50:12 pm
I think you are going to have to admit that there is a lot of novelty going on there man.  You are excited about it now, but let's see how much you enjoy it in a few months time.

Oh, I'll admit there's a novelty factor.  But that doesn't really take away from the impressiveness of what VR is capable of.  My biggest fear getting a VR headset was it wouldn't live up to the expectations.  But it's blown them out of the water.

As I said in the OP, the biggest issue I've run into is sheer exhaustion.  In fact, I took a day off from VR gaming today because I need a break to recover both physically and mentally.

Quote
I've messed with the phone adaptors because ..... well .....  they are only 20 bucks and while stuff is certainly impressive, it isn't $2000 impressive.

Well, duh.  Smartphones were never intended to be VR devices.  I've tried VR on my phone as well and it suffered from extreme lag in the tracking of movement and limited frame rate.

But a proper VR device like the Vive is another story altogether.  The tracking feels 1:1.  Frame rate is 90 FPS.  And I cannot overstate the importance of motion controllers and how incredible they are for VR.

Quote
There's the VR experience and then there is gaming.  VR is good for experiences, but it's a crap method of gaming for the reasons I've mentioned countless times in other threads... it just isn't ready yet.

Yes it is.  The biggest technological limitation is the visual fidelity of the displays.  The resolution is a step backwards from gaming on an LCD monitor; in VR it feels a bit more like gaming on an older CRT screen.  But it's hardly like CRT screens got in the way of video games.

The motion tracking feels perfect.  Physical comfort has been fine; at no point has the headset felt too heavy or awkward.  You are tethered to your PC via a cable, but even that isn't a hindrance in most cases.  Haven`t felt motion sickness once.

In terms of actual gaming, there is a lot that works in VR.  Cockpit sims are a no-brainer; people have already put 100+ hours into VR gaming in Elite: Dangerous, Eurotruck Simulator, DCS World, etc.   Gallery/arcade style shooters are another no brainer.  Audio Shield has shown that rhythm games can work extremely well.  Horror titles are intense and might even be too scary in VR.

God sims and strategy games are something I wouldn't have thought would work in VR.  But having had a taste of that with Final Approach, there is tremendous potential for those genres.  A SimCity or Populous-style game in VR would be incredible.

In fact, the one style of gaming that does pose a challenge is the free-roaming first-person games like Call of Duty or Skyrim due to motion sickness.  Developers have already come up with workarounds, such as teleportation for movement.  It works far better than I thought it would.  I think cover-shooters like Gears of War might work well in VR; we're kinda already seeing that with Hover Junkers.

I hope you get to try this for yourself one day.  I think it will shatter a lot of your preconceptions.  I know it did to mine.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: yotsuya on May 01, 2016, 10:58:40 pm
https://vimeo.com/164948014 (https://vimeo.com/164948014)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Token on May 02, 2016, 03:59:17 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkOuShXpoKc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkOuShXpoKc)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Howard_Casto on May 02, 2016, 04:20:20 pm
Points to both of you!  Double points!
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on May 02, 2016, 05:14:42 pm
https://vimeo.com/164948014 (https://vimeo.com/164948014)

(http://i.imgur.com/kPfzqmK.gif)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on May 02, 2016, 05:17:20 pm
http://www.retrojunk.com/commercial/show/4177/nickelodeon-actual-reality (http://www.retrojunk.com/commercial/show/4177/nickelodeon-actual-reality)

I can remember this when it originally aired..... :/

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Howard_Casto on May 02, 2016, 10:53:35 pm
So can I.  Hell I remember the "don't copy that floppy" ads. 

Remember when the Ninja Turtles and Alf told us not to do drugs?
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on May 03, 2016, 04:56:52 pm
$799 USD and in stock right now with $30 shipping...

Face it, many people here have spent more than that on an arcade cab that they use about as much as they would use this, so it isn't really unreasonable.  As time goes on I think this will become less of a novelty than having an original arcade cab in your house..
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on May 03, 2016, 05:49:28 pm
Face it, many people here have spent more than that on an arcade cab that they use about as much as they would use this, so it isn't really unreasonable.  As time goes on I think this will become less of a novelty than having an original arcade cab in your house..

Oh absolutely.  Having gamed for over 30 years; arcades, computers, consoles, mobile... this blows it all out of the water.  There is nothing quite like feeling like you are inside the game.

It wouldn't surprise me if "VR rooms" becomes a thing in the future.

Quote
$799 USD and in stock right now with $30 shipping...

There's still a 2 month backlog though.  Order now, receive in June. :)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on May 03, 2016, 06:20:42 pm
website shows "in stock" when you choose U.S.A. but I didn't go on to the other checkout screens..
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on May 03, 2016, 06:46:40 pm
website shows "in stock" when you choose U.S.A. but I didn't go on to the other checkout screens..

It's misleading and a problem with Digital River's site.  In the description fields, they have "Expected to ship around June 2016" right in the middle of it.  And if you're on mobile, that doesn't even show up.  More than one person's been tricked into thinking it's in stock as in it'll ship right away.

That said, well worth the wait. :)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RayB on May 05, 2016, 11:51:01 am
Fallout 5 will be SOOOO AMAZING!  ;)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: SNAAKE on May 10, 2016, 11:50:52 am
what about the one for ps4?

$500 sounds alright if it...works. do I get to be in games lol?
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on May 10, 2016, 12:13:57 pm
Lack of tactile feedback is going to kill these things.  Anyone else remember how much sword fighting and punching with the Wii controllers sucked?

And speaking of sucking, if I'm paying $500 for a gimmick device for a PS4, I want a semi-convincing hummer from Lara Croft.  A fleshlight with a Dualshock 4 duct taped to it does not count.



Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on May 10, 2016, 10:29:22 pm
Lack of tactile feedback is going to kill these things.  Anyone else remember how much sword fighting and punching with the Wii controllers sucked?

Can't speak for other controllers, but the Vive controllers do have haptic feedback.  That coupled with seeing in-game what you are meant to be holding (i.e. gun, flashlight, knife, whatever), makes it a whole different experience than waving around a Wii remote.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Ginsu Victim on May 11, 2016, 02:51:23 pm
While I have somewhat enjoyed VR using my headset and Galaxy S5, I have yet to have a proper VR experience.

We're still not where I'd like to be with it....

(http://contest.techbriefs.com/images/stories/entries2014/20140318171530_Holodeck_3.jpg)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Howard_Casto on May 12, 2016, 03:26:50 pm
Lack of tactile feedback is going to kill these things.  Anyone else remember how much sword fighting and punching with the Wii controllers sucked?

And speaking of sucking, if I'm paying $500 for a gimmick device for a PS4, I want a semi-convincing hummer from Lara Croft.  A fleshlight with a Dualshock 4 duct taped to it does not count.

I hate to defend a doa gimmick like high end vr, but sword fighting on the wii was amazing.  Felt great with near 1:1 experiences like Skyward Sword and wii sports resort and was even kind of fun on "waggle to hit" games like twilight princess and no more heroes.  Punching sucked but that's because the sensors weren't designed to detect that type of movement accurately.  They did have a bit of haptic feedback as well... at least the wii motion plus games.

I totally agree with you that it didn't give enough feedback for use with a vr headset though.  For that to work there would have to be some way to physically stop your hand, which, short of st:tng's holodeck, just isn't possible. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on May 12, 2016, 05:53:47 pm
While I have somewhat enjoyed VR using my headset and Galaxy S5, I have yet to have a proper VR experience.

We're still not where I'd like to be with it....

The Vive is as close as it gets currently.  Something about having tracked motion control and being able to use one's hands adds a ton to the immersion.

I totally agree with you that it didn't give enough feedback for use with a vr headset though.  For that to work there would have to be some way to physically stop your hand, which, short of st:tng's holodeck, just isn't possible.

You might be surprised.  The funny thing about VR is I'm finding if you trick enough of the brain into thinking what you are experiencing is real, it fills in the missing gaps on its own.

This is why in VR, when encountering physical objects, your brain wants to treat them as physical.  So it results in a really weird feeling to be able to move through physical objects in VR.  Conversely, people end up thinking that VR objects are physical and react accordingly (like trying to lean or sit on virtual furniture).

It's hard to fully appreciate without experiencing it first hand.  But it's far beyond using stuff like Wii remotes or other non-VR motion controls.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Ginsu Victim on May 13, 2016, 05:25:05 pm
The Vive is as close as it gets currently.  Something about having tracked motion control and being able to use one's hands adds a ton to the immersion.

I want a technology that can set physical limits, like Howard mentioned. We'll be there eventually, technology is improving at such a rapid rate, I expect it in my lifetime.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Howard_Casto on May 13, 2016, 11:19:12 pm
Maybe when we are old farts sitting around the rest home.

There are only three ways to do it.  One is to create "solid holograms" like the holodeck..... that just isn't happening anytime soon considering we can't even project a 3d image and make it look convincing.  Another is to wear a suit that can lock your joints at will... perhaps via solenoids or something.  It's possible but man would it be clunky and I don't even know how 3d would work when you are expected to walk and move around.... you'd be knocking over furniture left and right... it certainly wouldn't be a home solution.  The third is direct access to the brain.  We are light years away from that and even if we weren't I'm sure as hell not allowing a game company to access my brain considering half the games released today are so shoddily coded that they need 20 patches before they are even playable. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on May 14, 2016, 12:24:15 am
The Vive is as close as it gets currently.  Something about having tracked motion control and being able to use one's hands adds a ton to the immersion.

I want a technology that can set physical limits, like Howard mentioned. We'll be there eventually, technology is improving at such a rapid rate, I expect it in my lifetime.

You need physical props for that, which partially defeats the purpose of VR.

But like I said, if you provide enough of an illusion, the brain does a pretty amazing job of filling in the rest.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on June 25, 2016, 01:01:26 pm
You are excited about it now, but let's see how much you enjoy it in a few months time.

Thought I'd *bump* this thread because I've now had my Vive for 2 months now.  In that time I've:

1) Played nothing but VR games;
2) Used it almost every single day; and,
3) It's still the most revolutionary gaming device I've ever used.

While the initial VR novelty has worn off (i.e. I no longer stand there with mouth agape every time I put it on), the awesomeness of the VR experience has not.  It's so far beyond the experience of sitting in front of a computer monitor with a keyboard/mouse, that I legitimately don't know how I'm going to go back to regular gaming.

VR is the future.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Howard_Casto on June 25, 2016, 01:51:46 pm
I'm glad that you like it but....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjOLUyiCdL8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjOLUyiCdL8)

This guy has studied VR for over 10 years in detail.  Note how he brings up all the concerns I've previously talked about and states that the practical applications are pretty limited in gaming, with again, the same scenarios I talked about being the most compatible. 

VR is probably not the future.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on June 25, 2016, 02:16:34 pm
I'm glad that you like it but....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjOLUyiCdL8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjOLUyiCdL8)

This guy has studied VR for over 10 years in detail.  Note how he brings up all the concerns I've previously talked about and states that the practical applications are pretty limited in gaming, with again, the same scenarios I talked about being the most compatible.

Watched that video and it honestly doesn't seem like that guy has tried modern VR systems (or at the very least, his experience with them sounds limited).  I especially don't think he's tried the Vive.

For one, he claims that they are best for cockpit style games.  In my experience, while they are amazing in VR for certain aspects, the resolution is less ideal.  For example in most racing games you are staring into the distance, but the current resolution limitations make it hard to make out detail.  So anticipating turns as well as even reading your own dash becomes more challenging in VR.  Once we get the next gen with higher resolution, they'll be much better for cockpit games.

VR w/ room-scale and motion control is best for arcade style action games particularly gallery shooters.  Games like Space Pirate Trainer, Holopoint, Zen Blade, Zombie Training Simulator, etc, are amazing in VR.  FPS games also work depending on the mechanics.  Hover Junkers for example is a great example of an FPS that worked around the movement problem in VR by having you zoom around on a hover ship.  It works extremely well.

Room-scale and motion control also works well for strategy games or god games.  Imagine playing a space RTS except instead of seeing everything on a monitor, you have everything floating around you like a hologram.  Or having your entire floor represent a map and you can move around it picking up units or physically directing actions.  It's like having a life-sized toy set that's come to life.  That's what is possible in modern VR.

And finally, genres like horror, stealth and adventure work extremely well in VR as well.  The horror experience is amped up considerably in VR, when you start cutting off your senses from the outside world.  Budget Cuts has proven that stealth games can be incredible in VR when your full body is involved in the experience of moving and hiding.  And adventure games are taken to a new level when you are physically walking around a virtual room and interacting with objects.

TL/DR:  I have a hard time trusting that guy's VR experience.  It sounds like most of his experience is with much older VR systems.

Quote
VR is probably not the future.

It is.  Gamers have been wanting to be inside the video game since video games were invented.  VR achieves that.

Why do you think it's never gone away?
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on June 27, 2016, 11:30:48 am
Anyone using anything other than current VR devices to conclude whether it is a viable platform should be disregarded.  That would be like saying that I have done all the research on jetpacks from the 60's up until 2010 and concluded that they are never going to be more than garage inventor's crazy ideas...

If you think the tech from the last 5 years is getting really cool, wait another 5 years.. jetpacks, robots, biomechanical devices, VR, etc. are all turning up at an accelerating rate, and they all have massive commercial appeal.  Hell, I even know a guy who have bought a flying car already. 

Remember, home computers cost thousands of dollars in the late 70's and early 80's, and most people thought they would never take off.  They were ridiculously expensive and aside from a novelty, they didn't seem to have any real world use.  Today nearly every man, woman, and child in the U.S. carries one in their pocket.  And back then, few people had been dreaming of owning one for several decades before they became available.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on June 27, 2016, 11:36:22 am
Anyone messed with google cardboard?  Turns out I have a compatible phone.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: kahlid74 on June 27, 2016, 11:45:14 am
I was in on the OR from it's first Kickstarter Campaign and Howard and I disagreed on how it would play out.  I own the latest HTC Vive and OR sets and the Vive is superior and fantastic.  Being one of the original backers, I got a chance to play Star Trek Bridge Crew and it's everything I thought it would be, a fantastically enriching experience where VR is utilized exactly how I hoped it would be.  I still have high hopes for VR and if they make more games like Bridge crew, it's going to be a blast.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: yotsuya on June 27, 2016, 11:58:17 am


Hell, I even know a guy who have bought a flying car.

http://youtu.be/FEVaXyu0lWc (http://youtu.be/FEVaXyu0lWc)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on June 27, 2016, 05:11:37 pm
Anyone messed with google cardboard?  Turns out I have a compatible phone.

I have; it's mediocre.  Cell phones were never designed as VR devices, so while it's kinda cool they can kludge that technology out of it, it's far from ideal.

Compared to something like the Vive... well, there is no comparison.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on June 27, 2016, 07:42:48 pm
Yeah and it's like ten freaking dollars.

 :dunno
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Slippyblade on June 27, 2016, 07:59:10 pm
I spent $12 on a plastic molded version of the cardboard.  It's got good straps and adjustable lenses.  The effect, even on my phone, is great.  I've spent a lot of time just loving the YouTube 360 videos.  With my morbid fear of heights, I watch a lot of the base jump videos and try not to lose my mind.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on June 27, 2016, 09:17:06 pm
Yeah and it's like ten freaking dollars.

 :dunno

Plus the phone.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on June 27, 2016, 11:26:05 pm
Phone was free.

 :tool:
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on June 28, 2016, 08:09:45 pm
Phone was free.

Haha, no it wasn't.  :P
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on June 28, 2016, 08:41:48 pm
This one was.  Hand me down from 2013.   :P
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on June 28, 2016, 09:18:11 pm
This one was.  Hand me down from 2013.   :P

Someone paid for it though. ;)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on June 29, 2016, 01:42:07 am
OP,

Sorry I skimmed through this thread so I might of missed if you answered this already. Whats the specs on the PC you use with the Vive?
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on June 29, 2016, 08:26:31 am
Sorry I skimmed through this thread so I might of missed if you answered this already. Whats the specs on the PC you use with the Vive?

Currently my system specs are:

Intel i7 4790 @4 GHz
nVidia GTX 980 Ti  (EVGA FTW edition)
16 GB RAM
Windows 7 64-bit

I've been able to run everything I've thrown at it without a hitch, although some games (i.e. Project CARS, Elite: Dangerous) stutter at higher graphic settings, so I have to adjust accordingly.

I haven't tried super-sampling yet (at least via the Vive's settings), so I may look at upgrading my GPU to take real advantage of that.  But I'm waiting to see what all the current next-gen GPU options will be.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on June 29, 2016, 09:23:16 am
This one was.  Hand me down from 2013.   :P

Someone paid for it though. ;)

Yes, we all understand the uncreative and tired argument you are making.  Thanks.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on June 29, 2016, 12:40:35 pm
Convinced the girlfriend to get me one for my birthday.. Ordered and on the way  ;D
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on June 30, 2016, 10:14:21 pm
Convinced the girlfriend to get me one for my birthday.. Ordered and on the way  ;D

'grats!  You're going to have fun!   :applaud:
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on June 30, 2016, 10:19:00 pm
For anyone who thinks that VR is merely a passing fad, there's some pretty substantial capital being laid out to keep it going:

Quote
When Razer announced its $5 million developer fund for indie virtual reality developers, we were rather excited about the potential of this investment to help drive the production of new VR games and experiences. But as it turns out, that was merely a drop in the bucket, though, as HTC has just announced a new VR development fund driven by a number of companies, with a total of $10 billion in available capital.

http://www.digitaltrends.com/virtual-reality/vr-htc-vc-fund-vive/ (http://www.digitaltrends.com/virtual-reality/vr-htc-vc-fund-vive/)

HTC had also previously announced their own $100M VR venture capital fund.  And of course you have Facebook investing $2B in Oculus, Valve devoting a substantial part of their company to VR, and other companies like nVidia, AMD, Sony, Microsoft, Samsung, etc, investing in VR, I'd say things are looking good for the immediate future.

This isn't your 90's VR anymore...

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Yenome on July 01, 2016, 05:03:17 am
Sorry I skimmed through this thread so I might of missed if you answered this already. Whats the specs on the PC you use with the Vive?

Currently my system specs are:

Intel i7 4790 @4 GHz
nVidia GTX 980 Ti  (EVGA FTW edition)
16 GB RAM
Windows 7 64-bit

I've been able to run everything I've thrown at it without a hitch, although some games (i.e. Project CARS, Elite: Dangerous) stutter at higher graphic settings, so I have to adjust accordingly.

I haven't tried super-sampling yet (at least via the Vive's settings), so I may look at upgrading my GPU to take real advantage of that.  But I'm waiting to see what all the current next-gen GPU options will be.

This is the reason the VR is so good the system you try it on is what it comes down too. if you can game at 120fps outside of vr you might get 90fps with VR. VR pc requirements are much higher than gaming pc requirements. Im too cheap to buy a $300 VR approved card. me with my lonely r9 280 will not be doing any VR but i plan on just waiting till the VR comes down in price and the cards in my price range come up in performance. till then ill be doing Playstation VR.

*edit* your card is still $500 i spend about that much on a whole tower couldnt imagine just getting the video card for it. but i bet that things runs everything maxed out. well except VR.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on July 01, 2016, 04:46:18 pm
*edit* your card is still $500 i spend about that much on a whole tower couldnt imagine just getting the video card for it. but i bet that things runs everything maxed out. well except VR.
It's all about what kind of experience you want.  You want to get from A to B, buy the cheapest car you can.  You want to get from A to B really fast, you have to spend money.

Personally, I can't imagine a gaming rig without a decent 3d graphics card in it.  A $500 tower gets you a computer that can surf the web and play java based games (or mame).  That's not a "gaming" computer, that's a "personal computer".  Add a good graphics card and now you have a gaming computer.

But hey, if you are going to spend $800 on a display/controller (like a VR headset), why wouldn't you power it with at least a decent $300 card (in your $500 tower)?  I wouldn't get an 80 inch 4k tv and then watch VHS tapes on it or even SD DVD's for that matter, and I wouldn't buy a Corvette with a lawnmower engine in it either.  So why would I have a really great (and fairly expensive) display device without a good source to feed it?
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on July 01, 2016, 05:01:21 pm
Please don't use car analogies.  They're always lazy and wrong.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on July 05, 2016, 07:28:24 pm
I have been playing around with mixed reality last few weeks it's pretty fun. Now if Vive will hurry up and sell extra controllers in the US so i can attach a third one to a camera and have moving camera.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3loRfWD1GM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3loRfWD1GM)


www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8Hw0CfkkSs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8Hw0CfkkSs)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Yenome on July 07, 2016, 01:10:08 am
*edit* your card is still $500 i spend about that much on a whole tower couldnt imagine just getting the video card for it. but i bet that things runs everything maxed out. well except VR.
It's all about what kind of experience you want.  You want to get from A to B, buy the cheapest car you can.  You want to get from A to B really fast, you have to spend money.

Personally, I can't imagine a gaming rig without a decent 3d graphics card in it.  A $500 tower gets you a computer that can surf the web and play java based games (or mame).  That's not a "gaming" computer, that's a "personal computer".  Add a good graphics card and now you have a gaming computer.

But hey, if you are going to spend $800 on a display/controller (like a VR headset), why wouldn't you power it with at least a decent $300 card (in your $500 tower)?  I wouldn't get an 80 inch 4k tv and then watch VHS tapes on it or even SD DVD's for that matter, and I wouldn't buy a Corvette with a lawnmower engine in it either.  So why would I have a really great (and fairly expensive) display device without a good source to feed it?

the slowest car and fastest car will get from point a to b in the general same amount of time because speed limits. a 500 dollar tower built by me gets you around 60fps in the newest games at 1080p. 500 still gets you 16gb mem an i5 and a decent gfx card. above the 200 dollar price point of gfx cards diminishing returns hits you back hard. same with cpu as well, unless you're running VR it is over kill. oh and all computers including gaming are "personal Computers" hence PC.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on July 07, 2016, 01:44:11 pm
the slowest car and fastest car will get from point a to b in the general same amount of time because speed limits. a 500 dollar tower built by me gets you around 60fps in the newest games at 1080p. 500 still gets you 16gb mem an i5 and a decent gfx card. above the 200 dollar price point of gfx cards diminishing returns hits you back hard. same with cpu as well, unless you're running VR it is over kill. oh and all computers including gaming are "personal Computers" hence PC.
If your goal in life is to go the same speed as everyone else and not do anything exciting, then yes, the slow car AND the slow PC will get you where you want to go.  Nothing wrong with that, as long as you are OK with just keeping up with your grandma.  I am sure you will enjoy playing Candy Crush with her. 

On the cheap:
gen 6 core i5 : $200
Janky case with bare minimum PSU: $75
Super basic mobo for gen6 : $70
Slow ass HDD $50
16gb of the slowest ddr4 : $50
Assume you can get it all with no shipping, that's $450 for a damn slow new computer.
Now, show me the $50 "GAMING" card that will get you 60fps at 1080p on a game made in the last year.

Sure, if you buy 3 year old hardware and an nvidia 950 graphics card you can probably play a game from 2 years ago at 60fps at 1080 at the lowest settings and stay at $500, but we are talking about building a new computer here, not a "new old stock" computer.

Sure, they are all "PC's", but not all "PC's" will play a modern game at a playable frame rate with any level of detail.  You don't buy any old "PC" when you need a workstation, a gaming rig, or a media server.  You buy specialized parts that cost more than normal and create a purpose built PC.
(just to piss off PBJ, even a race car is still a car, but you don't take your Prius to the track when you want to go fast).

That being said, you don't NEED a purpose built computer to play games.  While I don't agree that $500 will get you a tower with current gen hardware that can play current gen games at 1080 and 60fps, that isn't why I responded to your comment.  I get your gist, and I agree that buying top end can get crazy in prices.  I was just saying that if I am building a computer to play games, I am not going to skimp out on the one part that will make the biggest difference.  And personally, I will not skimp on anything that affects performance.  I don't go cutting edge any more, but when a friend comes to me asking to build a gaming computer from scratch, I won't deliver the equivalent of a used Dell with a mid-line graphics card either.  And the upside to using the newest gen when buying is it lasts longer before it is obsolete.  I can redo the CPU, RAM, and mobo one year, then the graphics card the next, then the HDD and OS on the 3rd year, then start over, and never spend more than 300-500 each year and still have a solid gaming rig all year round.  It didn't cost $500, but I don't throw the whole thing out each year to build something that will work for the latest games either.  Plus I can sell the old stuff and recover 30% of my upgrade costs.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on August 28, 2016, 04:13:41 pm
Just ordered the Vive. Had to ordered a graphics card also, my weak GTX 460 wouldn't stand a chance. The 1070 should be plenty though.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ChadTower on August 29, 2016, 11:23:16 am



This thread has me really intrigued.  I need another spendy hobby that requires open space like I need a blown out knee, though.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on August 30, 2016, 11:16:33 am
Just ordered the Vive. Had to ordered a graphics card also, my weak GTX 460 wouldn't stand a chance. The 1070 should be plenty though.
I upgraded to the 1080 from my 980ti, gained a little performance.  In most things, the 980ti was more than enough.  And in some games that are not well optimized, even the 1080 is not enough. 

The vive runs each eye at 1200 lines of resolution, and has a built in supersampling of 1.4x, so it renders at somewhere around 1500 lines.  You also NEED to be at 90fps minimum or the display freaks out.  So it takes some horsepower.  There is a mode you can enable called 'reprojection' that will go into a low performance mode if it drops below 90fps and will keep you from getting instantly sick from the glitching.  It will kick everything down to 45fps then double the last frame, so your frames will be choppier.

You can also add your own supersampling multiplier that will add on top of the built in 1.4x.  For some games this helps tremendously as it will render upwards of 4k resolution (assuming your graphics card can do 90fps at 4k), and then downsamples it to the 1200 lines of the displays in the headset.  However, some games are just way too 3d intensive and can't handle it even with the best cards.  So if you play those games, you will be constantly editing the xml file to adjust the supersampling.  I am running my supersampling at 1.4 with the 1080 and it can handle brookhaven experiment, one of the worst games for performance. 

The problem with the vive is not one of resolution per se, rather one of pixel size.  The pixels are too small, which normally wound't be a problem, except the lenses that take the square display and make it curved for your eyes basically magnify it, and it's like putting a magnifying glass in front of a monitor.  You end up seeing the spaces between the pixels, which makes a "screen door effect".  Plus, anything photorealistic has to start at VERY high resolution, and usually that is not the case, so most photorealistic stuff tends to look low res, particularly in the distance where your eyes are trying to pick up small details and instead pick up the screen door effect.  Games that are more "cartoony" seem to have more immersion for me.

Aside from the overall resolution, my biggest complaint with the Vive (and VR in general) is that so many companies are trying to "wow" you, and so much content is way up close, which is fatiguing.  When 3d is 3 inches from your face, you go cross eyed trying to look at it.  Unfortunately nothing is really well optimized for the resolution so if it isn't way up close it is not very clear.  They need to learn that super close is not always better, and getting a finding the sweet spot between distance and clarity is key in any game.  The precision of the controllers is there, they simply don't need the objects 2 inches from your eyes so you can manipulate them.  Unfortunately, there is no adjustment you can do after it is rendered as it is rendered specifically for a certain scope.  The games that don't try to wow you with the 3d are the ones that you can play for hours.

One more note on room scale:  There is a line starting to form between Vive games and games that are for the Rift or SamsungVR:  Most of the new stuff coming out is room scale if made for the Vive.  So while room scale is not NECESSARY, if you want to get the most from a Vive, having a big room is key.  I can play Space Pirate Trainer to about wave 11 or 12, but after that without being able to move around (a LOT), I can't compete.  More and more games are becoming this way.

Don't get me wrong, the high requirements, limitations, and early stages of software are certainly issues but VR is an unbelievable experience even right now.  By the time the next Vive comes out (2-3 years from now is the speculation), so much more will be worked out.  There are a few methods being researched to eliminate or reduce motion sickness, moving around in 3D spaces outside the bounds of room scale is being perfected, and resolution, better optics, and lighter (maybe wireless) HMD's is not far off.  Give it 5 years and if you don't have a VR set, you will be left behind in the gaming world.  My problem is I want it now, not 5 years from now...  Owning a Vive only made me want this 100x more. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on August 30, 2016, 12:01:57 pm
So, do you sit on your hand for a few minutes first or what? 

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RayB on August 30, 2016, 02:33:49 pm
So, do you sit on your hand for a few minutes first or what?
:laugh2:
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Howard_Casto on August 30, 2016, 04:00:06 pm
Cheaper alternative. 

http://youtu.be/7ciVKIm7bcg (http://youtu.be/7ciVKIm7bcg)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ChadTower on August 30, 2016, 04:01:06 pm



Jim is still using his FUFME beta from 25 years ago.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: NiN^_^NiN on September 14, 2016, 12:51:55 am
Great to see more people jumping on this :)

I've used a wide range of them and currently am on a Oculus CV1 and GearVR

Thought i'd just throw out what the differences are between headsets for people to get an idea of where they are in quality etc.

The top two players are the HTC Vive and Oculus Rift CV1
These systems have full rotational and positional tracking so you can walk around a room if you want etc
Currently the Vive has wands for motion controllers and the Oculus has Touch which is motion controls as well (Being released in October)

The general gist is you want two things for a great VR experience.

1) Rotational Tracking
2) Positional Tracking

Now the screen obviously needs to be a great screen to give you an impressive jump into a VR world but both Rift and Vive have great screens both different with different drawbacks but no matter which one you get it will be great.

Now Rotational Tracking is the minimum we need for VR

This is will allow you to turn your head around in the VR world.

Phone based systems like google cardboard do this but because they aren't made for VR they don't have a high enough refresh rate to give a great VR experience it's good but not where it should be.

Now a system like Gear VR uses a sensor that can provide the high enough refresh rate to provide a good VR experience.

Now we get into the range of great VR which needs positional tracking.

This allows you to be tracked through space and this is very important a simple example is it allows you to lean forward and look at an object in VR and provides a 1:1 experience like the real world.

The issue with systems like Google Cardboard and Gear VR is this can help make you sick as if you move forward or try to peek around a corner your view doesn't move and because your brain didn't expect that it causes motion sickness.

All three systems the HTC Vive, Oculus Rift CV2 and Playstation VR provide both positional and rotational tracking and are the best VR you can use currently. This doesn't mean google cardboard or Gearvr don't have their places either being compact and portable are a boon and there are positional tracking solutions that can be added to these systems but the software needs to support it and there isn't currently a set standard for this on mobile yet.

I really do recommend if you haven't tried VR try one in a store if it is available locally but I urge you to try a Oculus Rift with the Touch Motion Controllers this is the best system I have used so far. As I stated before both systems are fantastic and you will love them no matter which one you use there's just one or two things that has pushed the Oculus Rift in front for myself but this is the start of VR we have great systems and everyone will be happy with either :)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Howard_Casto on September 14, 2016, 01:08:12 am
Well I hate to poop on the party, but it turns out I was probably right yet again.  According to the sales figures released by steam, sales of the Vive and vr software in general have dropped off to nearly nothing.  The rift is estimated to be at a standstill as well, but it's hard to tell as they haven't released their figures.  What industry insiders are saying is that this means all the early adopters have already bought all they are going to buy and more casual gamers simply aren't buying it.  The reason these stalled figures are worrying is due to the fact that this is based on August/September figures, which are the first months where a lot of this gear is officially available to the public.  There should have been at least some kind of surge in sales, but there wasn't any.

So on the pc end at least, VR is dead. 

Hopefully for you guys the console based VR solutions might restart the industry, or else you aren't going to see many new games anytime soon. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: NiN^_^NiN on September 14, 2016, 01:40:08 am
Well I hate to poop on the party, but it turns out I was probably right yet again.  According to the sales figures released by steam, sales of the Vive and vr software in general have dropped off to nearly nothing.  The rift is estimated to be at a standstill as well, but it's hard to tell as they haven't released their figures.  What industry insiders are saying is that this means all the early adopters have already bought all they are going to buy and more casual gamers simply aren't buying it.  The reason these stalled figures are worrying is due to the fact that this is based on August/September figures, which are the first months where a lot of this gear is officially available to the public.  There should have been at least some kind of surge in sales, but there wasn't any.

So on the pc end at least, VR is dead. 

Hopefully for you guys the console based VR solutions might restart the industry, or else you aren't going to see many new games anytime soon.

Actually you're wrong Howard (I remember you said back in 2013 when i posted about getting my KS oculus rift that it would be a fad I don't see why you seem to be so against it)

The Sales figures you are talking about aren't sales figures but the Steam Survey which people have to opt into and doesn't count the Rift or Vive if it isn't plugged in or for rift users who don't use steam (I'm one of them I like home but still use steam for 2D content just not for VR) There are multiple reports about how the survey doesn't actually count all the hardware correctly and most probably only counts games that work for the Vive only. Check the news and you will see other news articles about how the survey doesn't actually state what the current state is.

I admit that the Vive catalogue does feel kinda like tech demo's but they jumped into the game late and released the hardware early and the games don't really compare to the ones oculus has on their Home platform.

So sorry howard but VR isn't dead and shortly the Oculus will have a huge range of motion controllers with their motion controllers about to be released.

We have major game companies already slated a bunch of VR games to come and there's a huge push in Japan for it as well a bunch of franchises that western audiences mostly don't know and a bunch that do as well.

If you think VR is dead you are waaaaaay off  :applaud:
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on September 14, 2016, 08:38:56 am
Well I hate to poop on the party, but it turns out I was probably right yet again.  According to the sales figures released by steam, sales of the Vive and vr software in general have dropped off to nearly nothing.

They haven't released any sales figures.  People are estimating that based on Steam hardware survey results (which likely have a margin of error for reasons mentioned above).

Plus people are completely ignoring that electronics are highly seasonal with most sales coming in the November/December months.  For example, when the PS3 was first released it sold decently in Nov/Dec 2006, then its sales plummeted in the following months.  I'm sure if people made the same assumptions, they'd declare the PS3 a dead console.  But then it picked up again the following Nov/Dec (and after some price cuts/new model introductions).

There are still a few things that need to happen before people start declaring VR dead:

1) The Holiday season and how that impacts sales
2) Any sort of price cuts and/or HMD changes HTC makes
3) The release of Oculus Touch and the adoption of motion controls as a broader standard
4) The release of PSVR and its impact on the general VR market

If in 6-12 months everything that flattened with no signs of revival, then we can start talking about the death of VR.

Quote
So on the pc end at least, VR is dead.

VR is dead, long live VR.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on September 14, 2016, 09:30:39 am
Good rule of thumb, when you're attacking a report without providing a counter report, the first report is probably correct.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on September 14, 2016, 09:55:05 am
Good rule of thumb, when you're attacking a report without providing a counter report, the first report is probably correct.

But there is no "first report" which is the whole point.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on September 14, 2016, 11:22:41 am
(https://i.sli.mg/mDsmKw.jpg)

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on September 14, 2016, 12:15:52 pm
One indication that Vive's are still being moved is that Tilt Brush ownership continues to increase.  It has been a bundled title since day 1, so it can be used a proxy for trend of Vive market growth.

Conversely, Job Simulator and Fantastic Contraption were removed from the bundled games this past month and their activations have flattened.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on September 15, 2016, 06:23:58 pm
Found an interesting article published back in 1987 about how people viewed home computers and video games as a fad.  Interesting how much of the rhetoric back then seems to be mirrored with today's VR market.  ;D

https://archive.org/stream/COMPUTEs_Apple_Applications_Vol._5_No._2_Issue_6_1987-12_COMPUTE_Publications_US#page/n65/mode/2up (https://archive.org/stream/COMPUTEs_Apple_Applications_Vol._5_No._2_Issue_6_1987-12_COMPUTE_Publications_US#page/n65/mode/2up)

Also, NY Times article from 1985 on how laptops are just a fad: http://www.nytimes.com/1985/12/08/business/the-executive-computer.html (http://www.nytimes.com/1985/12/08/business/the-executive-computer.html)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on September 15, 2016, 07:49:12 pm
Found an interesting article published back in 1987 about how people viewed home computers and video games as a fad.  Interesting how much of the rhetoric back then seems to be mirrored with today's VR market.  ;D

https://archive.org/stream/COMPUTEs_Apple_Applications_Vol._5_No._2_Issue_6_1987-12_COMPUTE_Publications_US#page/n65/mode/2up (https://archive.org/stream/COMPUTEs_Apple_Applications_Vol._5_No._2_Issue_6_1987-12_COMPUTE_Publications_US#page/n65/mode/2up)

Also, NY Times article from 1985 on how laptops are just a fad: http://www.nytimes.com/1985/12/08/business/the-executive-computer.html (http://www.nytimes.com/1985/12/08/business/the-executive-computer.html)

I watched a interesting docu the other day which said similar things but it was in regard to gaming in general rather than just the hardware.

As the NES proved back then all you need is one successful piece of hardware with the right software to set the bar.
After that everyone else will follow suit and it will get better and take off.

The question is what will it be and when.

PSVR looks promising but I wont be rushing out to buy it.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on September 15, 2016, 10:34:30 pm
Read a AMA thread today with a PSVR programmer that talked about how PC sales of VR have taken a total ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.  Guess he must have been wrong, too.

 :dunno
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on September 16, 2016, 11:17:42 am
Read a AMA thread today with a PSVR programmer that talked about how PC sales of VR have taken a total ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.  Guess he must have been wrong, too.

 :dunno

Link?
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on September 16, 2016, 03:09:37 pm
https://www.reddit.com/r/PS4/comments/52wltn/im_steve_bristow_lead_designer_of_battlezone_for/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/PS4/comments/52wltn/im_steve_bristow_lead_designer_of_battlezone_for/)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on September 16, 2016, 03:21:29 pm
U wana give us a clue where to read on that rather long thread PBJ?
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on September 16, 2016, 04:53:18 pm
Only thing I could see in that thread in reference to sales of PC HMDs was this one question:

Quote
[–]Kibbles6
what are your toughts on the VIVE/Rift sales having grinded to a halt do you have higher hopes for PSVR?

[–]TurakothRebellion
Nothing’s ever a sure thing, but PlayStation have been working on this tech for years and been busy curating a great set of games for the first few months after launch. They also have one big advantage – they’ve been making hardware for decades, whereas this is a new business for some of the others. For the record though we’ll be supporting Oculus too with Battlezone and will hopefully others if we get the time!
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Howard_Casto on September 17, 2016, 07:48:55 pm
And I think that is realistic.  Sony and Microsoft are in a much better position because they make both hardware and games.  Then again think how much money and effort they dumped into the Kinect and PsMove respectively.  Optional accessories just don't sell well and that's all across the board throughout the entire history of video games. 

Make no mistake though, unless something impressive turns it around it IS dead on the pc.  That doesn't mean that, depending on what you use it for, you might get your money's worth with a vr headset.... just don't expect the AAA games/apps to roll in anytime soon. 

Also the NES was a bad example.  The NES's hardware was irrelevant.... they even re-designed the shell to trick consumers into thinking it was a toy.  It was their draconian restrictions on software and quality assurance of said software that made it successful.  Also the computers sold in 1987.... for the most part they were indeed a fad and they did indeed go away.  Remember that at that time ibm compatible (aka a PC and not some junk hobbyist computer) only had a fraction of the market.  Instead you had Tandys and c64's and all these pseudo computers where none of their software was intercompatable.    The pc as we know it today is ibm style with windows or Linux on it. Those survived because of a unified software base.  Again, it all goes back to the software. 

I'm not trying to argue btw, I'm just explaining my opinion so you can see where I'm coming from. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on September 17, 2016, 08:04:57 pm
Make no mistake though, unless something impressive turns it around it IS dead on the pc.

It's way too soon to tell the state of VR on the PC.  I see new games still being released every week, titles from bigger studios haven't landed yet (particularly Bethesda and Ubisoft), Touch controllers for the Rift are still to be released... And we haven't even been through a holiday season yet which is the peak buying period for electronics.  We also don't know what individual manufacturer's strategies are going to be with respect to price cuts, updated models, etc.  Price cuts alone could help spur sales.

Not to mention there are more HMDs coming out soon including the FOVE (first headset with eye tracking) and StarVR (with 210 degree view).

In another 6-12 months we'll see how things shake out, but people calling for the "death" of VR right now are being way too premature.

Quote
That doesn't mean that, depending on what you use it for, you might get your money's worth with a vr headset.... just don't expect the AAA games/apps to roll in anytime soon.

A little while ago I did an analysis of top titles per platform and when they came out relative to the platform's launch (using consoles specifically).  On average it took a little over 3 years (+/- 1.7 years) for the best games to arrive.  So realistically we're probably still at least 1 year or more away from the really good VR titles landing.  In the mean time, I'm enjoying the hell out of what we already have.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on September 18, 2016, 05:25:38 am
And I think that is realistic.  Sony and Microsoft are in a much better position because they make both hardware and games.  Then again think how much money and effort they dumped into the Kinect and PsMove respectively.  Optional accessories just don't sell well and that's all across the board throughout the entire history of video games. 

Make no mistake though, unless something impressive turns it around it IS dead on the pc.  That doesn't mean that, depending on what you use it for, you might get your money's worth with a vr headset.... just don't expect the AAA games/apps to roll in anytime soon. 

Also the NES was a bad example.  The NES's hardware was irrelevant.... they even re-designed the shell to trick consumers into thinking it was a toy.  It was their draconian restrictions on software and quality assurance of said software that made it successful.  Also the computers sold in 1987.... for the most part they were indeed a fad and they did indeed go away.  Remember that at that time ibm compatible (aka a PC and not some junk hobbyist computer) only had a fraction of the market.  Instead you had Tandys and c64's and all these pseudo computers where none of their software was intercompatable.    The pc as we know it today is ibm style with windows or Linux on it. Those survived because of a unified software base.  Again, it all goes back to the software. 

I'm not trying to argue btw, I'm just explaining my opinion so you can see where I'm coming from.

Although I agree with you I still think the NES to be a good example.

Hardware needs software and visa vera one without the other is nothing.

The NES was a re-release of the Famicon sure but it pretty much single handedly saved the games industry.

The toyish redesign was intended and so was the heavy quality focus with the seal of authenticity.

Nintendo realised it was poor quality control etc that nearly destroyed everything so they took steps to put it right.

Then and ever since competitors followed suit and its now a massive industry and can in no way be called a Fad.

And even though we still get **** games now and again we have never had another ET lol
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on September 18, 2016, 11:12:50 am
And even though we still get **** games now and again we have never had another ET lol

I dunno, you ever play Big Rigs?   ;D

http://youtu.be/h6DtVHqyYts (http://youtu.be/h6DtVHqyYts)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on September 18, 2016, 02:29:02 pm
Cant say I have.
I avoid crap games lol
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Loafmeister on September 21, 2016, 11:40:06 am
PC sales:  For those wanting to get in on high end VR (Oculus CV1 or Vive), it can be quite an investment, as stated earlier between $1500-$2000 USD for most to plunk down (including headset) if they didn't have a good enough PC.  This alone guarantees that the early adopters certainly would plateau.  That's a lot of money.  Consumers have shown they lots to spend $$$ on high end devices (hellooo smartphone and tablet markets!) but there's a limit. 

In saying that, technology advances, less than 6 months after release we already have a GPU ATI 480 that sells for a couple hundred bucks.  It will be the same for the rest of the requirements, where Oculus said 9 months ago a minimum spec VR PC would cost $999, now we are seeing them go around $675 http://www.pcworld.com/article/3117782/computers/tested-this-all-amd-650-pc-proves-vr-ready-rigs-dont-have-to-be-expensive.html (http://www.pcworld.com/article/3117782/computers/tested-this-all-amd-650-pc-proves-vr-ready-rigs-dont-have-to-be-expensive.html).  Give it another year and we'll probably have sub $500 PC/Console able to run these.  My crystal ball is showing me Xbox Scorpio is going to do just that (PS4 is going to do a decent job with PSVR but it's underpowered and can't do the same high end roomscale VR as the current PC solutions, especially compared with Vive).  Regardless of the consoles, it's just a matter of a couple of years before a large majority of PC gamers will have a VR specs PC; right now, that's not the case.

Like any other tech, the HMD prices themselves will fall once further R&D and manufacturing improvements leads to better cost saving.  This is standard in the industry and usually leads to increased sales passed the early adopters.

From websites I've read, many of the VR industry leaders had low expectations on VR sales for the first year, not because of their specific HD tech or prices but because of that PC spec min requirements.  Oculus have stated this numerous times, the slow sales in the first year is expected (Jan 2016:  http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/01/oculus-founder-your-crappy-pc-is-the-biggest-barrier-to-vr-adoption/ (http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/01/oculus-founder-your-crappy-pc-is-the-biggest-barrier-to-vr-adoption/).  I don't have a link handy but I remember an Oculus rep specifically stating they didn't think VR might kick off very fast until CV2 is out which is in a couple of years.

I own both the Oculus Rift CV1 and the HTC Vive, caught the bug with the DK2 and for me anyway, there's no turning back.  In saying that, VR mass adoption is unlikely because of real issues such as:

- people don't like not seeing around them, something stuck to their face is a big turnoff (current bulkiness is an issue overall)
- the headset adjustments between players is a hassle and a half, so local multiplayer suffers greatly
- Great VR gaming generally speaking doesn't really address the most successful genres (FPS and sports) due to locomotion restrictions.
- mass market gamers are into "push a button, device is on".  The notion of having to put on a headset, adjust the straps, etc at the moment isn't for these gamers (though kudos for Oculus for having gone quite some distance in managing to do just that... as long as you aren't passing the headset to someone else)
- gaming wise, new platforms needs a killer app, presently there is none
- tech wise, it's very cool but for mass market they need higher resolution/less pixels and larger FOV
- as mentioned by others, haptic feedback is not what some expect *
- wires... freaking wires

So why am I all-in then?

- VR is awesome for online social gaming, unbelievable.  Playing pool and ping pong in VR will never beat playing in real life but boy does it blow away standard pc gaming!  The feeling of presence, even this early in the industry life cycle blows my mind and it will only get better from here
- Immersion can't be compared.  Whether you play cockpit games, adventure games, shooters (not traditional FPS), there's nothing like it
- Right now, we don't yet have the killer app/game/experience released because that takes time and some of the AAA studios just started working on VR but that is coming, just a matter of time.
- Motion control: the technology may not be perfect but if you take it for what it is, it's incredible!  I'm especially continuously impressed by the room scale tracking of the HTC Vive (and from what I hear, will be equality impressed with the Oculus controllers when they come out in two months).  For anyone who tried the wii controllers, forget it, it's nothing like that.
- Haptic feedback *:  It's better than people think, because the mind fills in the blank.  When I play "Thrill of the fight" (a VERY early access boxing game), even though I'm not hitting a face, the level of presence along with the current haptic feedback (I think it has it! LOL) seems to fill in the blanks.  Obviously it doesn't feel like I'm punching something but the mind is tricked.  This doesn't work with everything but when its done right, it works better than you would think
- FOV/SDE:  Yes the low FOX and especially the SDE (pixels or space between the pixels) is noticeable, more on the Vive than the Rift IMHO but still once you are in it for a while, you just don't notice it anymore.  I liken it to playing classic arcade games, where I just don't see the low res others might see.  To each is own...
- Eventually, like maybe 3-4 years from now, mobile CPU/GPU solutions will make wireless VR a reality and this will help considerably

Anyway what exactly should be considered a success here?  Selling 1 million?  10 million?  100 million?  Because of the "cons" listed above, I don't see 100 million as achievable but after normal VR spec PC adoption improves and prices go down, several is possible.  But this is a moot point, Oculus and John Carmack believe that wireless is the end result of VR and I think they are right.  Won't be for a while, but it will get there eventually and when it does, along with a less bulky headset/hopefully glasses, that's when the flood gates will open.

For the nay-sayers, some of you probably predicted the ipad was a passing fad  As of March '16, they have sold over 300 million.  ;).  Seriously though, don't compare motion control to wii and VR to the cheap solutions, it just doesn't compare.  If you get a chance to try it (especially the Vive because of it's current room scale developed games), try it for at least 30 min, you'll see the technical limitations tend to just disappear.

Exciting times!

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on September 21, 2016, 11:46:42 am
I'm kind of surprised I haven't seen any Playstation VR demo set ups anywhere.  Aren't those coming out in a couple of weeks?

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ChadTower on September 21, 2016, 02:33:09 pm



The VIVE does have demos set up at Microsoft stores.  I saw one recently but didn't get the chance to try it.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on September 21, 2016, 07:20:22 pm
Any one that lives in Utah hit me up and ill let you check it out. No weirdo's though.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Howard_Casto on September 24, 2016, 11:28:58 pm
I'm kind of surprised I haven't seen any Playstation VR demo set ups anywhere.  Aren't those coming out in a couple of weeks?

Yeah that's weird isn't it.  Taco bell is even doing that promotion to win one and honestly when I saw the commercials I thought "are those demo units?"  because there has been virtually no fan-fare or advertising for the thing.  You would think they would do those big, pompous, playstation ad campaigns like they normally do when something big is about to be released.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on September 24, 2016, 11:44:41 pm
They did completely sell out the PSVR pre-orders, so there is that.

Although I suspect we'll see a bigger marketing push as we get closer to the holidays.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on September 25, 2016, 04:39:18 am
Yeah after Halloween on the run up to xmas I think there will be a big push.

Ime going to be watching the PSVR with interest as its something I would like to play but ime not going to lay down that sorta cash until I see some real world use 6 months after release.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fablog on September 25, 2016, 08:48:58 am
I tried the PSVR this week in a mall in Montreal. I played Eve Valkyrie. Well VR is fantastic but     this one feels cheap. Nausea after 5 minutes, resolution too low and not enough viewing angle. I didn't tried the competition but this one give me a huge interest for this technology.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on September 25, 2016, 03:59:23 pm
Using the revive plugin on the HTC vive I was able to Eve Valkyrie. So far thats been the only game that has made me nauseous. Even at low graphics I got the screen to be as smooth as possible but still insta-headache.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on October 01, 2016, 06:51:42 pm
A lot of interesting comments here.

Sales:  If sales HAVE flattened out, I can tell you why... In the first few months after the Vive finally hit retail, there were still a lot of titles coming out that were worthy of the price and enthusiasts were gobbling them all up.  Most of these were early releases or "previews", and in every case, still in development.  In the past 3 weeks I haven't seen one title come out that is recommended.  At best a few have come out that got a "looks promising" or "if you really like XXXXX type games, get it" type reviews, but otherwise, all junk.  In other words, all the BEST stuff is already out and still in development, so there is no need to spend more money once you have those titles.  PLUS, all the really good games are getting huge updates with tons of new content. 

Rift vs Vive vs the others.  The real differences between Rift and Vive are the controllers and room scale.  Vive is all about getting up and interacting with the environment.  Rift has some great games out for it and more development time on the games, but uses an xbox controller at the moment, so interaction with your environment is limited and there is no way to define the room, so room scale is pretty much limited to the Vive.

I enjoy watching friends try it out as much as playing.  One friend, just a few minutes after being in, tried to lean on a table.  He stumbled and hit the wall instead.  It is VERY immersive. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: NiN^_^NiN on October 20, 2016, 07:54:22 pm
Just wanted give you guys the good news on VR

Oculus has created ASW (asynchronous space warp) which is an improvement on AST (asynchronous time warp) (Vive dosen't use any of these hence jitter sometimes in games and useless on hardware not powerful enough but they said they are working on a similar AST so that should help.

basically AST will make the framerate smooth so you won't notice any jitter or the screen stopping when rotating your head. The new ASW does the same and positional so it can run the game at 90hz on the display even if the fps is say 45fps and keeps it smooth and unnoticeable but the greatest benefit is that has brought down the min spec so you can now use a $149 GPU for VR and a whole PC made to the new spec for oculus is about $400 to $500 so it's dropped down greatly for people to access VR at least for oculus and hopefully Vive when they get their own AST running sometime next year.

So now you have a PC that can run VR at a much better price point and lower spec.

Also the Vive just released sales figures which doesn't match the steam survey at all and hence why it was pointed out that the amount and adoption rate was incorrect.

The vive has sold 140,000 units so far (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2016-10-20-htc-vive-has-sold-more-than-140-000-units-report (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2016-10-20-htc-vive-has-sold-more-than-140-000-units-report))

Add the fact we still have Oculus that hasn't released figures and they are about to sell their headset with motion controllers as a bundle plus PC specs are much better to run the games we have a encouraging trend and if you have seen any of the facebook stuff that was announced at OC3 (Oculus Connect 3) the social aspects of VR with facebook are fantastic it's going to be a really great year in 2017 for VR.

Also on the note of VR their is a new GearVR for samsung phones and daydream for the new Google Pixel which shouldn't be confused with google cardboard.

Also Oculus showed off a wireless headset they are working on which uses inside out tracking and a small PC/Android stick so you can have positional tracking without any external sensors so you could slap it on a user in a warehouse and they could move about like they would in real life and be able to crouch and everything a real FPS (movement in real world while in a virtual world) could become much easier :)

Also the PSVR is great at what it does but it's still between the Gearvr and rift/vive hence the display isn't as great and can be somewhat blurry compared to Vive and Rift.

Still a great system and very nice games well worth checking out :)

Also on Eve Valkyrie for all Rift users most people turn up the settings which makes it look very nice and crisp but revive won't allow it I believe so it would look worse although the default looks a tad meh too but upping the settings is fantastic but the game can make you feel a bit sick because of the fast action but the great thing is if you keep playing each day for a few weeks and stopping when you feel sick your body will get use to it and you won't have issues. People have fixed their car sickness because they kept going back into VR after feeling sick and their body adjusts same happened with me. I used the Rift DK1 and got sick after 10mins in minecraft and kept playing each day and it fixed my car sickness which i've had since a kid.

VR is going strong and with the new motion controllers from oculus (Finger tracking and natural feel with hand presence in VR) we are in for a really fun time :)

Also with the announcement of a few big players making VR films and Disney jumping on board as well I think we won't even know how awesome the next few years will be with VR
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on October 21, 2016, 10:10:58 am
Oculus has created ASW (asynchronous space warp) which is an improvement on AST (asynchronous time warp) (Vive dosen't use any of these hence jitter sometimes in games and useless on hardware not powerful enough but they said they are working on a similar AST so that should help.
It's called reprojection in Vive and it is essentially the same thing and has been out since day 1.  The downside is once it kicks in, it will seldom kick back to the full 90fps until you exit the game or can maintain 90fps for long periods of time.  And unless you set it to be on all the time, you will get a disorienting flicker when it kicks in.

The problem is, at 45fps, tracking resolution is FAR worse, regardless of platform.  All these processes will fill in the missed frames with calculated frames to try to smooth it out, which doesn't work when it doesn't predict where you are moving.  This creates ghosting and while it doesn't make you motion sick, it is far less than ideal.  In either case, if you can't maintain 45fps, things get ugly fast.  and 45 fps at what is just over QHD is not easy to maintain for cheaper cards unless the game developers plan for it and can remove features and resolution to maintain the lower FPS.  Eventually everyone will figure out how to get these to run well with the most basic gaming video cards but the cost will be high in terms of quality and experience, and the gap from the low end to the high end will be as big as it was in the days of old.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Ian on October 21, 2016, 11:48:19 am
My buddy has one in his man cave/computer room... he always asks me to go try it... but I am afraid he just uses it for porn... I mean how do you clean up after????
(https://m.popkey.co/9a2ca3/xRM7X_f-thumbnail-100-0_s-600x0.jpg)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on October 21, 2016, 09:06:56 pm
The vive has sold 140,000 units so far (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2016-10-20-htc-vive-has-sold-more-than-140-000-units-report (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2016-10-20-htc-vive-has-sold-more-than-140-000-units-report))

Just to clarify this, the original language version was reportedly that they'd sold "a lot more" than 140,000 Vives.  We still don't have a real number, but it's presumably well in excess of that.

Also, Steamspy is reporting over 150k users of Tilt Brush, which is relevant because it's bundled with the Vive in most but not all regions (i.e. China).

And then there's the Steam h/w results which are reporting 0.19% of Steam users have a Vive.  Which assuming at least 125M Steam users, that translates into over 230,000 having a Vive.

At this point no idea how many Vive's are out there, but the real number is likely somewhere in and around those figures.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Howard_Casto on October 22, 2016, 10:18:47 pm
Which I think is a reasonable number thus far.  Unfortunately that isn't enough to ensure games.  Let's say you want to release a game on steam.... would you design it for 125 million potential users, whom only a fraction will buy your game, or a mere 230k, which again only a fraction will be interested in?  There is a market to be exploited but developers aren't going to invest a lot of money in it and thus AAA titles aren't going to be plentiful. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: NiN^_^NiN on October 23, 2016, 07:46:20 pm
It's called reprojection in Vive and it is essentially the same thing and has been out since day 1.

Actually it's not the same thing and it's why you get flicker and judder it doesn't happen for the Rift or PSVR that's why Valve have said they are working on a version of ATW.

The main issue is Reprojection kicks in after it drops so it introduces visual artifacts, double image blur on moving objects and squashes software IPD which can cause sickness and a few other issues it's why they are working on their own ATW

Also it's 45hz not fps here's a quick breakdown

Asynchronous Time Warp: https://developer.oculus.com/blog/asynchronous-timewarp-on-oculus-rift/

With ATW each frame is rendered for the left and right eyes and is processed by ATW before it is displayed. If the rendering is complete it is displayed as synchronous timewarp, but if not and a frame misses the VSync deadline then the previous render is reprojected, shifted for position.

Interleaved Reprojection: https://steamcommunity.com/app/358720/discussions/0/385429254937377076/

With SteamVR's Interleaved Reprojection if either the CPU or GPU get too close to using up the available frame time then the compositor will drop into half-time mode where every other frame is reprojected. The result is that the game will be updating at 45hz instead of the normal 90hz.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on October 26, 2016, 07:34:26 pm
Microsoft has now officially announced new VR headsets for Windows 10:

Quote
Microsoft’s partners will ship a new line of virtual reality headsets to take advantage of Windows 10’s VR and holographic capabilities. At today’s event, Microsoft said that the headsets will start at $299 and will include inside-out tracking sensors, obviating the need for external cameras or laser systems like those on the current Oculus Rift or HTC Vive. HP, Dell, Lenovo, Asus, and Acer are all listed as partners.
-   http://www.theverge.com/2016/10/26/13418156/microsoft-windows-10-holographic-virtual-reality-headset-announced-price (http://www.theverge.com/2016/10/26/13418156/microsoft-windows-10-holographic-virtual-reality-headset-announced-price)

Sounds like there may be multiple price points on these and no idea what sort of specs we could be looking at.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Howard_Casto on October 26, 2016, 10:36:20 pm
Yeah this is a game changer.  Remember how m$ unified pc gaming with directX and later on with the xbox 360 gamepads and xinput.  If supporting a VR headset becomes as simple as a few lines of code then it means anyone can cheaply and easily make their game a VR game and a unified framework means that anyone can manufacture a headset.... so cheap Chinese knock-offs and lower end models from discount monitor companies will keep the price of the hardware down.  You will still see very few games purpose built for VR, but at least there will be games. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: NiN^_^NiN on October 27, 2016, 09:02:53 pm
Yeah this is a game changer.  Remember how m$ unified pc gaming with directX and later on with the xbox 360 gamepads and xinput.  If supporting a VR headset becomes as simple as a few lines of code then it means anyone can cheaply and easily make their game a VR game and a unified framework means that anyone can manufacture a headset.... so cheap Chinese knock-offs and lower end models from discount monitor companies will keep the price of the hardware down.  You will still see very few games purpose built for VR, but at least there will be games.

I like that there is more headsets out but I am worried how well these ones would work compared to the VIVE and Rift it's a shame their "demo" was pre-recorded footage and not real but that seems to be common for MS demos lately.

I am actually worried about there being a Direct X VR api at this point it's way to early I believe and the hardware and they way it functions is varied currently but then again these headsets might be released late next year.

As for ease of use to make a game the two main game engines have voth VIVE and Rift built in you don't even need to do anything in UE4 (Unreal Engine) and Unity and a lot of the smaller game engines ones already have modules as well for VR so it's not really an issue.

UE4 has a great solution of full screen can enter VR mode if it's hooked up or stay full screen if it isn't it just works and you can tick an option to not start VR when full screen they have integrated it quite nicely especially when it comes to motion controllers.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Howard_Casto on October 27, 2016, 10:24:54 pm
Third party apis don't really mean anything in windows land.  Many developers outright refuse to use third party dlls or apis. 

UR4 support of course is a step in the right direction, but VR won't truly be integrated until directX and/or open GL have native VR support.  Of course support in those toolsets means that support would be scalable, just like you can use a crappy video card or a brand new one to play the same game.  Remember that all VR amounts to is the same scene rendered at two viewpoints and a camera moveable via head tracking.  It should be fairly simple to make that universal. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on October 31, 2016, 07:41:38 pm
Was playing the Vive last night and realized that my VR game library is already at 50 games. It seems like every few days Steam has new games up. Usually they are  free quick demos or actual games (Small games) but usually under 5-10 bucks. Been playing some Horror games..... Fun to watch people play until you have to put the headset on.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on November 01, 2016, 08:33:44 pm
I just got through playing Accounting. It took me by total surprise, it was voiced by the guys that do the Rick and Morty cartoons. If you have a Vive you have to play it next, its also free!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14IR8QzRpHU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14IR8QzRpHU)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on November 01, 2016, 09:00:55 pm
I actually have that but haven't played it yet. Will check it out tonight.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on November 01, 2016, 09:08:21 pm
I just got through playing Accounting. It took me by total surprise, it was voiced by the guys that do the Rick and Morty cartoons. If you have a Vive you have to play it next, its also free!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14IR8QzRpHU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14IR8QzRpHU)

Accounting was weird and awesome.  Was not prepared for the level of weirdness.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on November 01, 2016, 09:09:37 pm
Was playing the Vive last night and realized that my VR game library is already at 50 games. It seems like every few days Steam has new games up.

Same.  I've managed to amass quite a backlog of VR titles.  I was worried I wouldn't have enough, but now I have too many! 

Quote
Been playing some Horror games..... Fun to watch people play until you have to put the headset on.

Horror in VR is something else.  It's a level of fear I didn't think possible.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on November 02, 2016, 09:05:53 pm
Over at Reddit I posted a six month retrospective on my experience owning and using the Vive (https://www.reddit.com/r/Vive/comments/5an3vt/vive_six_month_retrospective/).

It's a bit long, but in summary it was completely worth the purchase price. With a couple exceptions, all my gaming in the past 6 months has been in VR.

While the initial novelty of VR has worn off--I no longer stand in dumbstruck amazement after putting on the headset--the level of immersion hasn't.  Experiences are still as compelling as they were when I first got the Vive.

Physical, room-scale gaming has it's upsides and downsides.  Ambient temperature is my greatest nemesis; using the Vive when overheating and sweating can be uncomfortable.  But the trade-off to be able to fully experience a video game like never before is more than worth it.

Overall, very happy with the Vive and eager to see where VR goes next.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: jtslade on November 02, 2016, 09:38:33 pm
Good to hear! I'll read your post tomorrow at work..

I had 5 minutes in a VIve and it sold me.. Just gotta figure out the PC upgrade and space issue
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on November 03, 2016, 10:48:20 am
I was traveling for several weeks and super busy at work in between, so I didn't play for almost 6 weeks in a row.  It was amazement all over when I finally got time to don the HMD again...  Just the updates to existing games keeps me busy enough to not need to buy anything new.  All the new stuff in Space Pirate Trainer alone has occupied most of my free time, and Brookhaven has gotten that much better too.  I want to get back to Island 359 again, but who has the time to hunt dinosaurs these days??

It only takes 20-30 minutes of play to be surprised when I remove the HMD and snap back to the reality of my small computer office.  Those walls weren't there a minute ago...
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on November 16, 2016, 08:44:41 pm
New coolest VR experience ever: Google Earth VR (http://store.steampowered.com/app/348250).

If you've got a Vive, definitely grab it.  Best part, it's free!  ;D
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on November 16, 2016, 10:19:08 pm
I was traveling for several weeks and super busy at work in between, so I didn't play for almost 6 weeks in a row.  It was amazement all over when I finally got time to don the HMD again...

Even though I haven't gone that long without Vive use, I have gone up to a week or so, and I'm always surprised at how amazing VR still is when I dive back into it.

Especially since the immersion hasn't worn off.  Playing Raw Data recently, I still get freaked out when enemy robots sneak up on me and still get occasional moments of sheer panic in that game.  It's great, I love it!  ;D
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on December 13, 2016, 01:24:16 am
Thought I would report the first multiplayer VR game that I find genuinely fun; Smashbox Arena. This is like my forth arena type of game I have tried, they finally got the teleportation done right.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/530350/ (http://store.steampowered.com/app/530350/)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on February 23, 2017, 04:45:45 pm
Well I took the plunge and treated myself to a PSVR setup today.

Wont get it until next week sometime but ime pretty excited and cant wait to play RE7 in VR!

Ive been holding off as I wanted to wait for some real reviews from actual gamers before dropping the cash, but I have seen nothing bad so thought I would take the plunge.

Ile let you know How I get on when it comes :D
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on February 23, 2017, 05:05:50 pm
NFW you get me to put on a VR headset and play RE7.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on February 23, 2017, 05:20:08 pm
NFW you get me to put on a VR headset and play RE7.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170223/c52cd65d565eca8678872278a61ae162.jpg)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: markc74 on February 23, 2017, 07:08:49 pm
Loving the psvr but couldn't play re7 for more than 10 minutes without taking a break. The tension is crazy.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on February 24, 2017, 07:28:52 am
Loving the psvr but couldn't play re7 for more than 10 minutes without taking a break. The tension is crazy.

Sounds awesome :)
Just wish there was the standard Zombies instead of moulded.
Always fancied playing a game like that in VR with a gun so I could blow that ugly mofos head off :p

I have ordered that until dawn: blood rush which is meant to be good to but ile wait n see.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: markc74 on February 24, 2017, 07:39:46 am
Until Dawn is pretty good too. It's got some cheap jump scares but is loads of fun. It made my stomach lurch a few times the first time I played as you're on a roller coaster but you get used to it pretty quickly. Dodging to avoid blades is cool too.

The game I've played the most has to be VR Pinball . For some reason it just works so well in VR. It's seriously making me consider abandoning the vpin I was gonna build this year.
Title: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on February 24, 2017, 08:40:57 am
I was looking at that vrpin actually but wondered what it would be like :p

I also brought rigs which looked good, thought that would be a good start to my vr experience with them.

Does anyone know if you can buy a extension cable for the psvr?

I would like to run it around the room rather than across the carpet due to dogs!!
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on February 24, 2017, 07:18:16 pm
Does anyone know if you can buy a extension cable for the psvr?

Usually these are just USB and HDMI cables. The Vive cables can be disconnected from headset and longer ones can be attached.

Not for the PSVR but Arizona Sunshine (http://store.steampowered.com/agecheck/app/342180/) is a great zombie game for the Vive. Its a good break from the common zombie rail shooters thats flooded steam.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on February 25, 2017, 03:00:27 am
Yeah one of the cables is HDMI but the other is something unique to the PSVR I think.
It sort of looks like a HDMI but its not LOL
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on April 03, 2017, 09:32:42 pm
It's been almost a year since I took delivery of the Vive.  Thought I'd give a short update/retrospective.  In particular, I wanted to address this comment:

You are excited about it now, but let's see how much you enjoy it in a few months time.

Having been using the Vive for almost a year now, I can safely say this:  VR is ---smurfing--- amazing.

It's become my primary form of gaming.  In fact, it's largely ruined playing certain games on the monitor.  Having play a variety of shooters in VR, going back to modern FPS games on a monitor feels primitive in comparison.  There's just no substitute for being inside the game.  Not to mention the sheer flexibility that room-scale and motion controllers brings to the experience.  In many cases, the only limitation is whatever real-world physical limitations exists in terms of aim, movement, and body position.  I have played shooters where I have laid on my backside, aiming upside down with dual guns with fully independent aim.  Not having to worry about pre-programmed movements and limitations is awesome.

My biggest fear going in was that content was going to be slim.  I was legitimately worried that I really only would get a couple months use out of it.  But that hasn't come to pass.  Just looking at my library, I've got a backlog of about a couple dozen VR games.  I figure I've still got a couple hundred hours of content to go through easy.  And that's not counting upcoming releases.  One of the most pleasant surprises has been Croteam's commitment to VR.  I've always been a fan of their games (both the Serious Sam franchise and The Talos Principle), and they've started porting their entire back catalog to VR; proper VR with full room-scale and motion controller support.  Can't wait to try Serious Sam 3 in VR.

Valve has also announced they are working on three, proper VR titles.  Knowing Valve's pedigree for quality, I'm excited.  Mind you, knowing their tradition for vaporware (*cough*Half-Life 2:Episode 3*cough*), who knows what and when they will deliver.  But I'm sure they have something good in the works.

If I do have one complaint thus far (besides the obvious challenges of video gaming becoming a physical activity), it's that there is a gap in genre representation.  In particular, a lack of strategy games and sim/management style games.  I cannot wait for the day when Civilization, X-COM or SimCity style games start making their way to VR.  I've had a taste of how awesome strategy can be in VR with games like Quar and Airmech Command.  But dammit, I want more!

Anyway, VR is amazing and as far as I am concerned it's here to stay.  It's definitely no gimmick; I challenge anyone who thinks so to spend a couple hours using a Vive and see if they still feel the same way.  I've already demo'd it for about a dozen people and not one person hasn't been impressed.

TL/DR: VR is awesome; new favorite way to game; best piece of gaming technology I've used in a couple decades.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Howard_Casto on April 03, 2017, 09:46:43 pm
I'm genuinely glad you like it, but it seems like the people have spoken.  VR is the next 3d tv. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on April 03, 2017, 10:25:11 pm
I'm genuinely glad you like it, but it seems like the people have spoken.  VR is the next 3d tv.

That's not really an apt comparison when you think about it.  3D TV actually sold quite well for a few years; tens of millions of units annually.  The problem is it kinda hit a brick wall; it didn't have anywhere to go market-wise nor technology-wise and thus fizzled out.  And let's be honest; 3D TV is kind of a gimmick.

VR is in a bit of a different situation.  It's still well in the early adopter phase with lots of room for growth.  Many things need to still happen in the VR market, creation of standards (particularly a standardized API), lowering of price, and boosting of content offerings.  There is also a lot of room for technological advancement: lighter and more ergonomic headsets, higher resolutions, wider FOV, and the holy grail of PC VR, wireless.

And unlike 3D TV, proper gaming VR is not a gimmick.  It's a legitimately functional way to game that has a lot to offer over and above traditional seated, monitor play.  Right now there are some significant barriers to entry, though.  Once those start coming down, I think you'll see wider adoption hopefully paving the way for the next generations of VR technology.

Right now we're kinda in the Magnavox/Atari 2600 era of VR technology.  Once we can hit at least the NES era, I think we'll start seeing it taking off.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on April 03, 2017, 11:11:52 pm
Ive had the Vive for about 8 months now and am still stoked when I play. Recently I has focused more of my time using sculpting, designing software. I can now sculpt a figurine or model in 3d, export and 3d print it, super cool.

A part of me fears that its all going to go away eventually but it seems like every few weeks a decent title comes out. Still no epic AAA title but enough to keep me going.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on April 04, 2017, 02:35:09 am
I'm genuinely glad you like it, but it seems like the people have spoken.  VR is the next 3d tv.

I dont believe this to be true either.
There was nothing wrong with 3D tv's, I still own one.

The problem was with content.
Over here (not sure about US) none of the big TV subscribers offered a 3D service except sky and that was very limited and had to have other bundles packaged with it to use so rather expensive.

If there was more content I think they would of been more of a success.

As for the VR, ive been loving PSVR!
I have not had as much time as I would like with it but both me and my Ms have been getting much enjoyment out of it.
The hardware still has some way to go in terms of gfx quality and the price needs to come down to allow access to everyone but a fad I dont think it is.

It is alot of fun and some games play so much better in VR than they do on a TV.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on April 04, 2017, 10:05:21 am
The problem with 3D TV is that people rarely just sit there and watch TV.  Kinda hard to fold laundry or play on your phone with 3D glasses on.

Same thing with VR, it's kind of hard to pick up and play when you've got to sit in your special chair with your special glasses. 

 :dunno
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: knave on April 04, 2017, 11:29:24 am
The problem with 3D TV is that people rarely just sit there and watch TV.  Kinda hard to fold laundry or play on your phone with 3D glasses on.

Same thing with VR, it's kind of hard to pick up and play when you've got to sit in your special chair with your special glasses. 

 :dunno

New to VR systems everywhere...SIM LAUNDRY!

Fold them before they fold you!

LOL
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on April 04, 2017, 11:48:03 am
I'm seeing massive support for VR from every major display and gaming company, so I'm not sure where the idea that it is a flop is coming from.  Content is not flooding in like it was in the beginning, but as shponglefan pointed out, even heavy users are finding a backlog of content to explore.  With major game developers working on top tier titles as well as retrofitting older hits to work well with VR, anyone who plays a game for more than a few days will be in content for the foreseeable future. 

Right now, the things slowing it down are twofold: 
First, the cost is still prohibitively high for the best experience.  You can get a middle of the road experience for a fairly reasonable price, a low end experience for practically nothing, but if you really want to see the future of gaming, it takes a substantial investment.  Not many people are willing to drop $2k to get started with first gen tech that still has a long way to go before it is perfect.
Second, the tech cycle is not as fast as consumers like.  Months after the Vive finally hit the street, people were asking how they could upgrade or when the next gen will be out.  They want higher resolution, better lenses, wireless, more comfortable headsets, more sensors, and games that will support full body sensing.  It is all coming, but it is slow to get here.  Wireless was deemed impossible by the armchair developers out there, yet within a couple months of HTC funding the best ideas, a working prototype was out and available for preorder in Japan.  And it works without sacrificing quality and latency.  But it still isn't available in the States.  Heck, even the simple audio and headset upgrade is not yet available, despite the announcement before the new year.  Some people have done their own sensor pucks and created demos that track your entire body, but the pucks are still not available, and until they are, there won't be much demand for games that you can kick a zombie in the face.  And as for a second gen headset, the rumors are saying another 2 years before HTC has something available. 

When the next gen hits, a lot of the biggest complaints will be worked out, and hopefully price will start to come down (in the form of the first gen being remade with cheaper tech and better mass manufacturing techniques).  By then, all this money being dumped into the tech in the background will produce some really great results, and the high end VR will start to become more mainstream. 

I wouldn't compare this to 3D televisions, I would compare it to 3D games.  When games first went to 3D, it took hella expensive cards to even play at all.  But despite this, it was embraced by the gaming community (a multi-billion dollar market) simply because it was so awesome of an enhancement over 2D games, and defined the direction of even cheap appliances like xbox's and playstations.  Before xbox came out, your option was to spend $300-$1000 on JUST the graphics card in a computer if you wanted to play these kinds of games.  Today you can do this on your smartphone, any console, android TV, PC's with integrated graphics chips, and of course, in high end gaming rigs.  It went mainstream and stuck around, despite the "early adopter" prices that were prohibitive and seen as a gimmick.  Give this tech 3 or 4 years of niche gamers spending several thousand dollars every couple years upgrading before we will see PC's and Consoles coming with lifelike resolution headsets for mere hundreds of dollars, not thousands.

As for 3D television, it was never going to end up mainstream.  3D video is a movie technology.  It takes incredibly expensive cameras to film natively, or a TON of post-processing to get even moderately right.  Nobody is going to invest that kind of money into a TV show.  Besides, as PBJ pointed out, as long as there are glasses involved, it isn't going to go anywhere.  Shutter glasses suck in comparison to passive glasses, but nobody is going to spend a couple hundred thousand dollars to get a projector capable of doing passive 3D in their home. 

On the other hand, the media is still there, and as VR technology grows, the potential for watching 3D movies is going to grow too.  Trust me on this, 3D in VR is second to NOTHING.  There is no cross talk, no filter between your eyes and the screen, and no requirement for keeping your head aligned with the screen.  And it is more immersive too, because it fills your entire FoV.  A movie in VR, once the technology is a couple generations older, will be amazing, and I will be one of those early adopters.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on April 04, 2017, 11:51:38 am
It's like someone took the same pro-VR arguments from 20 years ago....  I was reading these exact same defenses back then, too.




Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on April 04, 2017, 12:29:48 pm
It's like someone took the same pro-VR arguments from 20 years ago....  I was reading these exact same defenses back then, too.

It's a bit different than the 90's though.  The biggest impediment to VR back then was ergonomics.  Limits on refresh rates and high tracking latency meant you were likely in for a bad time.  PC Gamer's original reviews of VR headsets actually came with an "aspirin rating"; basically, how sick they expected the headset to make you feel.  Sure things like high price and limited content were also issues.  But if the technology sucks from the get-go, those are secondary issues.

Conversely that's largely a non-issue with modern headsets.  They have tracking that feels 1:1 and refresh rates are high enough not to cause nausea.  The only real issue still to deal with is artificial motion in VR, but even that can be overcome in most instances.  It's basically taken a couple decades for the technology to catch up to the idea of VR.  We're at that point now, we just need to start moving beyond it.

The other change is that the 90's push for VR was still at a time when 3D graphics in gaming were relatively new, not to mention 3D hardware acceleration.  Now we have over 20 years of 3D gaming technology in place already.  It's a much better starting point for moving into VR.

And finally, we have the Internet.  Content distribution is much better than it's ever been, so that increases accessibility.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on April 04, 2017, 12:32:12 pm
Same thing with VR, it's kind of hard to pick up and play when you've got to sit in your special chair with your special glasses. 

"Sit"?  What is this "sitting" in VR of which you speak?  :dunno
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on April 04, 2017, 01:44:06 pm
Not sure what you do when you watch TV PBJ but I generally like to have a beer in hand, feet up and chill.
Much the same if I am watching a 3D film I just have a pair of glasses on to which I dont even notice after a few mins.
Hell I can even use my phone!

But yeah shutter glasses suck, not sure why anyone ever bothered pursuing that alley really.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on April 04, 2017, 04:01:03 pm
But yeah shutter glasses suck, not sure why anyone ever bothered pursuing that alley really.
There are a few movies where 3D really added to the experience in the theater, and it would be great to extend that to the home.  I went to Ghost in the Shell the other night on Imax3D and the 3D was pretty impressive.  It wasn't gimmicky and added a level you aren't going to see at home even on the best theaters.  The only unfortunate part is I spent most of my time out in the lobby talking to my realtor and the guy who ended up buying my house and theater equipment, lol.

Unfortunately, 3D leaves a lot to be desired when translating that to the home, so while I can see the allure, in practice it just didn't work out.  In particular, the shutter glasses mean you get half the frame rate, so you have to double it to 48 or 60 fps, which causes the "soap opera effect," something I can't stand.  Home 3D is a "lose lose" situation for me, so I don't bother.  After I upgraded my last projector I tried it out, but it just wasn't worth the effort for anything more.  A good quality bluray with a good projector is plenty immersive on a big screen.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on April 04, 2017, 04:41:05 pm
Well my 3DTV is passive (wouldn't buy shutter), And I am yet to see a home projector that uses it well.

But to be fair my TV and suround sound system give a good 3D experience.
Just a shame there is a lack of content for it though!!
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on April 04, 2017, 09:30:37 pm
I wouldn't compare this to 3D televisions, I would compare it to 3D games.  When games first went to 3D, it took hella expensive cards to even play at all.

I agree, the 3D graphics comparison much more apt.  When 3D acceleration first arrived it was expensive and extremely limited.  It took a couple years just for usable 3D acceleration to arrive, then a couple more years for standards to emerge.

VR is still in that early phase.  It hasn't even been given a chance to fail yet, and already people are writing it off (although I imagine most still haven't tried it).
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on April 04, 2017, 11:25:19 pm
It hasn't even been given a chance to fail yet, and already people are writing it off (although I imagine most still haven't tried it).
I imagine most who have tried the cardboard box or maybe the samsung VR, which is a toy by comparison.  It would be like writing off cars as transportation because your experience with them is riding in your kid's barbie battery powered corvette.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on April 05, 2017, 06:14:08 am
It hasn't even been given a chance to fail yet, and already people are writing it off (although I imagine most still haven't tried it).
I imagine most who have tried the cardboard box or maybe the samsung VR, which is a toy by comparison.  It would be like writing off cars as transportation because your experience with them is riding in your kid's barbie battery powered corvette.

That is possibly the best point I have ever read! LOL
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on April 06, 2017, 09:27:35 pm
I imagine most who have tried the cardboard box or maybe the samsung VR, which is a toy by comparison.  It would be like writing off cars as transportation because your experience with them is riding in your kid's barbie battery powered corvette.

Cute analogy ;)

In seriousness, I wonder if phone-based VR is giving people a skewed impression of VR's potential.  I've tried Google cardboard and while neat, it wasn't anything to write home about.  I couldn't see using it for much beyond 3D porn videos or something.

But a proper VR game system is something else entirely.  I feel that just room-scale and motion controllers is 50% of the experience.  I couldn't imagine VR gaming without them.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on April 07, 2017, 10:05:15 am
I feel that just room-scale and motion controllers is 50% of the experience.  I couldn't imagine VR gaming without them.
Exactly, and that is something that a large percentage of people who have "tried VR" have not experienced.

Without the level of interaction from room scale and motion controllers, it becomes the difference between watching a 360* video and feeling like you are actually there.  One of my friends came over immediately after learning her father died just so she could spend a little time lost in a different place.  To me that is a pretty strong statement about how immersive it is when done right.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on April 09, 2017, 12:10:10 am
I just beat Arizona Sunshine, such a cool game. If they can keep pumping out games like that I will be completely satisfied. Does anyone have any other recommendation for a game that complete? The Steam library is getting nuts and I am sure I have missed a few gems.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on April 09, 2017, 10:21:44 am
I just beat Arizona Sunshine, such a cool game. If they can keep pumping out games like that I will be completely satisfied. Does anyone have any other recommendation for a game that complete?

I recommend the following:

The Serious Sam VR games, specifically The First Encounter and The Second Encounter.  These are VR ports of their FPS games; each offers roughly 10 hours or so of gameplay.  The devs are also porting Serious Sam 3 and The Talos Principle to VR, which I cannot wait for.

Twisted Arrow - It's a bow-and-arrow style teleporting FPS.  It's quite fun, quirky style, lots of enemy types and a good sense of progression in the levels.  Content is a bit thin as there are only 6 missions.  On medium difficulty they can be each beaten in ~15 minutes or so (so you're looking at an hour-and-a-half of gameplay).  On Hard difficulty the game becomes a lot more tactical and challenging, which stretches out the game time.  While short, this one's a bit of a hidden gem.

Doom 3 BFG with the VR mod - Basically Doom 3 in full-VR (room-scale + motion control).  A little rough in places due to its non-VR roots, but otherwise it's an awesome way to experience Doom 3.  And much more terrifying when things like Imps and other monsters are life-size.

Airmech Command - If you like RTS style games, this one is a lot of fun.  Well-polished, bunch of different maps/missions, tons of unit types (over 60).  Only real flaw is it's a touch easy, although there are some challenging missions in it.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on April 09, 2017, 11:39:04 am
Lots of games on Oculus side you can still play on the vive with a plugin.

Robo Recall is probably one of the most polished VR titles to come out.

SuperHOT is just a fun game and it is one I always come back to.

I Expect You to Die is a polished puzzle game.

Dead and Buried is not to bad

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on April 09, 2017, 07:34:02 pm
I would love to play DOOM in VR!
Hell thats a game I dreamt of playing in VR since it game out lol
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ChadTower on April 28, 2017, 12:37:02 pm



A new console gaming place near my house has the PSVR for $5/hr.  I've been playing it as much as I can manage to get over there.  It's way better than I thought it would be.  Although the cable can be clunky, especially if you're wearing headphones, it's a lot of fun.  The price point for me is still way too high, though, given that I don't have a PS4.  I will definitely be picking this up once the price falls.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RayB on May 02, 2017, 02:51:41 pm
Quick question for you VR-ists (I have yet to try anything more than Occulus Dev version 1, years ago) : What is it like when the worlds are abstract and non-real? Is it like the uncanny valley for human CGI, or is it "wow, I'm inside art!" type of thing?
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Jmoneyphx on May 02, 2017, 03:29:07 pm
Makes me woooozyyy....Waiting for the game setup from the movie "Her"...
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on May 03, 2017, 11:04:27 am
Quick question for you VR-ists (I have yet to try anything more than Occulus Dev version 1, years ago) : What is it like when the worlds are abstract and non-real? Is it like the uncanny valley for human CGI, or is it "wow, I'm inside art!" type of thing?
It quickly takes over your sense of reality.  The best is stuff that is close to reality but clearly not, like fantasy settings.  It's like stepping into your favorite fantasy book as a kid.  There is a demo produced by Jon Favreau called Gnomes and Goblins where you step into a forest setting with tiny little gnomes running around and the trees are their home.  It is insane how quickly you accept it as reality.  When you reach out too far and hit a wall in your room, it is jarring because you already lost any sense of the walls in your room.

Even the more abstract worlds feel like you were dropped into a cartoon or something like that. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RayB on May 03, 2017, 03:25:22 pm
Quick question for you VR-ists (I have yet to try anything more than Occulus Dev version 1, years ago) : What is it like when the worlds are abstract and non-real? Is it like the uncanny valley for human CGI, or is it "wow, I'm inside art!" type of thing?
It quickly takes over your sense of reality.  The best is stuff that is close to reality but clearly not, like fantasy settings.  It's like stepping into your favorite fantasy book as a kid.  There is a demo produced by Jon Favreau called Gnomes and Goblins where you step into a forest setting with tiny little gnomes running around and the trees are their home.  It is insane how quickly you accept it as reality.  When you reach out too far and hit a wall in your room, it is jarring because you already lost any sense of the walls in your room.

Even the more abstract worlds feel like you were dropped into a cartoon or something like that.
So we're going to need a padded room on top of the hardware cost...
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on May 03, 2017, 06:15:03 pm
Quote
So we're going to need a padded room on top of the hardware cost...

you mark out your play area with your motion controller, anytime you get near that virtual line a grid wall pops up in game. Only a moron still ends up punching walls and things; or if your play area is so small you can't take half a step without hitting something.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on May 04, 2017, 01:18:50 am
Only a moron still ends up punching walls and things; or if your play area is so small you can't take half a step without hitting something.
My room is the bare minimum, in fact it took me 3 tries to get the software to accept my room as big enough.  But even so, the first time I let my daughter try it, she was punching clowns in the nvidia fun house demo and caught the door trim pretty hard.  There is a dent in the wood within arms length of my computer chair.  And I stood in the doorway watching my other daughter play brookhaven, and when she ran out of bullets and started swinging, I took a controller to the gut.  I wouldn't call them morons, I would call them avid game players.

And I keep my setup on expert mode for the chaperone.  Those grids are almost always on in a small room, so I turned them to the minimum and set them really dim.  A room bigger than 5x8 helps.  So does ceilings taller than 7 foot.  If you don't have it, you make due.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ChadTower on May 04, 2017, 09:15:10 am



It can definitely happen with PS VR.  I was standing near a kid last weekend with the PS VR headset on and the kid punched me square in the chest.  The funny thing was he didn't even hesitate to keep playing the game.  He was so immersed that real physical contact with a person (much bigger than himself) didn't deter him at all.  It was pretty funny.


The PS VR doesn't set up the same way, though.  It uses the PS camera so it's one camera and you don't really move around inside that range.  You stand or sit in one spot and the software is designed for that.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on May 04, 2017, 09:16:48 am



It can definitely happen with PS VR.  I was standing near a kid last weekend with the PS VR headset on and the kid punched me square in the chest.  The funny thing was he didn't even hesitate to keep playing the game.  He was so immersed that real physical contact with a person (much bigger than himself) didn't deter him at all.  It was pretty funny.


The PS VR doesn't set up the same way, though.  It uses the PS camera so it's one camera and you don't really move around inside that range.  You stand or sit in one spot and the software is designed for that.

That is pretty damn funny! LMAO
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: mimic on May 04, 2017, 10:35:36 am
....but it seems like the people have spoken.  VR is the next 3d tv.


Such an ignorant statement. No, people have NOT spoken. The only people that have spoken are those that didn't try the real thing, with controllers in room-scale environment. Once you tried that, then you know THERE IS NOTHING LIKE IT!

I purchased my Oculus Rift a little over month ago and I have NEVER been as impressed by something as the feeling of being COMPLETELY somewhere else! It's one thing to play Doom 3, it is completely another to be IN Doom 3! The sense of realism that your brain perceives when standing on a ledge of a high building and testing with my foot, that I am really safe and not gonna fall down is out of this world!

It may not be perfect yet, it has its cons, but I am glad I am getting in at the beginning of the gaming revolution, and even in case revolution will never happen, home VR beats any kind of 3D "attraction" that you wait for for 2 hours at Universal Studios or Disney for 5 minutes of "fun". For $600 (headset no computer or video card, which you should already have if you consider yourself a gamer) its way more entertaining being not only 3D, not only immersive, unlike said attractions at Disney/Universal, it's interactive and there is no time limit, its yours as much as you want!
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on May 04, 2017, 11:39:01 am
Lot of no true scotsman there, mimic.  I think the point is that if half-assed implementations aren't capturing the popular interest, there's going to be no demand for high end.

Anyway, the market will determine the outcome of this, regardless of what any of us think.

 :cheers:

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ChadTower on May 04, 2017, 12:07:36 pm



FWIW, theme parks are starting to roll out VR integrated rides.  They're cheaper and safer than the ones we've always had.  There have always been some like the Back to the Future ride at Universal but now they're really starting to go all in.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Howard_Casto on May 04, 2017, 01:02:06 pm
Lot of no true scotsman there, mimic.  I think the point is that if half-assed implementations aren't capturing the popular interest, there's going to be no demand for high end.

Anyway, the market will determine the outcome of this, regardless of what any of us think.

 :cheers:

They pretty much have.  While sales aren't decidedly anemic, they aren't good enough to justify the insane r&d costs, not to mention the extra costs to game developers for VR specific content in a game when they can sell the same game without said content and still sell millions of copies.  The VR goggles have been out for quite a while now and there isn't a single "killer app" that people are flocking to, which is needed to push the devices out of the curiosity stage. 

I've said this a million times on this forum but some of you need to pick out your ears.  Optional gaming accessories do not sell well... this isn't opinion, it's fact.  Go back the entire history of console and pc gaming and you'll find this.  The few exceptions to this rule are accessories that fix a defect in the standard equipment, like the 6 button genesis pad or the wii's nunchuck accessory and even then they get a mere fraction of the support  of the default stuff. 

I mean you can look at the VR units like a monitor, but even then it looks like they aren't going to sell, thus my comparison to 3d tvs.  A 3d gaming monitor is a lot cheaper than a headset and the glasses are far less cumbersome and you would get a rudimentary 3d effect... yet no one is interested.... 3d monitor/tv sales tanked a few years ago.  So if nobody is interested in that, then the prohibitive cost of a VR headset, with it's even more cumbersome interface isn't going to appeal to the casuals at all, which, like it or not, are the people you have to get on your side for a product to sell well enough to get some actual games made for it. 

If VR has any kind of future, it's an industrialized, public one like what Chad just mentioned.  To a theme park VR is actually inexpensive compared to the alternatives and while a end user might not be willing to fork over 600 bucks for a headset, the price of admission to a popular theme park, where there are other fun things to do, might be swayed via the novelty of a VR experience. 

Of course, like I've said previously, there is always the Nintendo factor.  Nintendo could design and sell a headset attachment for the switch for practically nothing and they might actually be willing to do a full fledged game of premium quality.  Judging by current sales everyone wants a switch anyway, so the added cost to the end user is practically nothing.  Unlike smart phones the games would probably be good, so that could jump start the genre. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ChadTower on May 04, 2017, 01:26:21 pm



The PS VR setup is $400 now if that helps.  That includes the required camera but not the essential Move controllers.  Some games, mostly the point/click style narrative games so far, really need those.  I will definitely pick up the PS VR equipment later in the system's lifespan when I eventually find a PS4 cheap at a yard sale.


Can you do basic things on the other headsets using it like a regular display?  I played through part of Battlefront recently on the PS VR headset.  It looks like a great big projected flat image.  I assume you could watch videos that way if you were so inclined.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pixel on May 04, 2017, 01:29:06 pm
Stereoscopic 3D  has always been of interest to a lot of people.

 The problem has always been the fault of the people whom were behind the wheel.

 With PC 3d hardware:

 With the hardware being specific to certain graphics cards,  or certain video card drivers...  developers do not want to support it with software efforts.
 With over-pricing of the glasses - Especially in reguards to the low-tech nature of them,  in a time where the tech was already cheap as hell to produce.
 Poor software included (or none at all),  that was NOT a Must-Buy -  to hook people into the whole environment.  (such as how Super Mario Bros singlehandedly pushed sales of the NES thru the roof)

 The arguments for flicker,  as well as having to wear glasses,  have always been a way to shift the blame of the real reasons.


 With 3d Tv:

 - The 3d tech was not standardized

 - The 3d glasses were all over the map,  as far as quality, comfort,  different compatibility,   as well as too high of a cost.

 - The content was too expensive.  Movies priced at like 4 times the standard cost... was asking way too much.

 - Severely Limited Content.  Brodcasters did not have the tech, and were not going to invest millions for it.. when there was no massive base of users.
    And, even if you forget about prices... there was not a lot of 3d Releases worthy of watching / buying.  One great 3d re-release,  was Predator.  That should have been right out of the gate, and included with the TVs.   Heck, maybe something even more iconic... like T2, ROTJ,  Indiana Jones,  etc...

 - Screen Sizes.  The 3d depth is limited, on a smaller screen.  Imax puts an object about 5 ft in front of your head... due to its Massive screen size... and how close you sit to it (vertical stadium seating)    For smaller LCDs,  you have to sit much closer,  and even then... its still far less of an experience.   Watch something on a decent 3d home projector however... and its just like the Imax experience.   Flippin amazing.

 - LCD issues.  LCDs have gotten better over time... but they still had a lot of lag issues.   This causes problems with timing on shutterglasses,  and image / depth quality + motion blur, and ghosting problems.   Then you have stupid frame-fillers,  that compound the issues... making unrealistic looking movements.  (uncanny valley effect)    Additionally, color depth lackings, field of view,  possible glare,   and ease of setup / use  issues...

 - DVD / Blueray  3d hardware support issue.   You could not just plug your existing blueray / DVD player into,  and use it to view 3d content.    They could have left this open to the hardware of the glasses and tv to take care of... as a last resort... so anyone could simply try it out as-is.    Instead,  they locked it down into a need for a specific new player.   Further turning people off, with more expenses... and little content to justify it.

- Time.   Mfgs are famous for pulling a plug way too early.  Expecting large gains, in quick timeframes.   Not allowing the people,  to eventually catch up to the tech... and the base then generating a lot more sales in the future.     They shifted focus to HDR and 4k.   Both are great and desired options.   But,  3d  HDR + 4K... would be even better...


 One thing VR can do,  is potentially open up 3d movie conversions and sales...  as they could be great personal viewing devices.   The issue however,  is the format.  It needs wide, and non distorted FOV...  as well as a higher resolution.    A single wide display,  with flickering eye lens lcds,  would be Heaps better than the method used now...  at least, for movies and general pc type use.  **   Or use of two displays mounted on the sides,  with a periscope like mirror setup to reduce space + give wide and full HD resolutions.


 Turns out that many of the entertainers of the early years,  actually had things like DVD music, with interactive content... ages ago.   It did not catch on... but why?
It was released too early,  where more CD drives were a commonality.   Poor to Zero advertising.   And, again,  did not wait long enough.   DVD Audio,  should be the standard.
Cds are antiques,  providing far more limited audio quality and reproduction... let alone limited size and durability.   And yet,  CDs are still the physical media of sale, for audio.  It boggles the mind.


 VR will get big eventually.    But it might die again,  if the mfgs.  do not get their acts together.   Cost are too high.  and nothing I see out there screams "I cant live without this in my life"  yet...


 As to note...  Ive used / seen  Stereoscopic 3d on:

 - The Sega Master System  (Missile Defense 3d,  is da bomb!   Worthy of picking up the hardware, just for this game)
 - PC hardware around the 90s era
 - Got to see / use some later pc hardware revisions at friends house
 - Watched movies at a friends affordable 3d home projector,  about 2 yrs ago... that blew me away  (as good as the Imax experience)
 - A used Virtuaboy   heh
 - And in the 80s  arcades, on  Continental Circus.   (That is an Awesome 3d experience!  Tires, car wreckage parts, and smoke trails... flying out of the screen! )

  and some other lesser devices not worthy of mention...


 I am very curious to see what Jerry's CastAR will do...
 And Id love to see one of the current VR devices  (my phone is barely able to power the most mildest of VR play. GN2)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on May 04, 2017, 01:41:24 pm
Can you do basic things on the other headsets using it like a regular display?  I played through part of Battlefront recently on the PS VR headset.  It looks like a great big projected flat image.  I assume you could watch videos that way if you were so inclined.

Yes there are a bunch of apps that allow you to use the headset as a main display.
You can actually stream your PS4 through the headsets, kind of cool.

The PSVR display actually works with the WiiU and Xbox1 if your just using the display.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ChadTower on May 04, 2017, 01:47:30 pm



Oh man, if Nintendo ever got into that, Mario Kart VR would be the killer app Howard is waiting on.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 04, 2017, 01:47:41 pm
There are many similarities between 3DTV and VR.  The obvious 3D effects both deliver, aside.

1) Higher cost, which delivers a new experience at the expense of usually lower visual quality.  It can take twice as much horsepower and twice the resolution to deliver the effect well, and costs are associated with this.
 Consumers generally tend not to be thrilled with this trade-off.

2) Limited and/or poorly done content.  Some things are enhanced by, and translate well to VR, and other things not so much, with the former being much smaller in quantity than the latter.  While it might sound cool to play a "twitch" FPS in VR, the concept is not going to translate very well.  And making games with VR features just because they can, with no real benefit to the gamer, will not help to sell the concept.

3) Required isolation associated with the experience.  In one form or another, each limits the ability to interact with the user's surroundings and freely move from one activity to another.  VR takes the 3DTV problem and increases it exponentially.

4) Something I'll refer to as "industry flogging".  When a technology reaches a point to where there isn't much more they can do to keep sales moving, marketeers start throwing things at the wall until something sticks, or they feel that they can make the consumer believe that it has. Then, it's all the industry talks about.  It borrows a page from the "repeat the lie enough times and it becomes fact" principle.   3DTV fit this bill, as does VR, IMHO. 

I have tried VR with a high end cell phone (Snapdragon 820 based w/ a large 2k screen, and more sensors than I can remember) and mid-range headset holder.  The experiences ranged from ridiculous and ineffective, to immersive and mildly heart-pounding.  The latter being the demo of massive great-white sharks swimming around you.  But aside from that one experience, and I sampled much of what was readily available, I didn't feel like donning the gear was worth what was eventually delivered for the effort.  Aside from that first 3-hour exploratory, I haven't used it since.

At some point, the "killer app" may eventually come along which will be worth the cash extraction, but I don't see it yet.  IMHO, it's going to need much better technology, at a much lower price point for it to gain real traction in the marketplace.  And Howard, even the almighty Nintendo won't be able to change that.  :lol
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on May 04, 2017, 02:09:55 pm
Hmmm Mario Kart VR, I would freaking love that!
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: mimic on May 04, 2017, 02:11:07 pm
By now pretty much all of you nay-sayers have admitted you don't own the "real thing", real thing being of course Oculus rift and HTC Vive. You talking about "killer-app" like you have any idea what killer-app for VR is. I am here to tell you after playing with my Rift, just about EVERY game I tried IS a killer app! People just don't realize that even the dinkiest games is WOW! in VR.
Have you tried:
Robo Recall
Superhot VR
Arizona Sunshine
Various Rollecoasters
The Climb
Batman VR
I expect you to die
list goes on and on!
Even dinkiest game like Fruit Ninja or any of the wave shooters like VR Invaders 2.0 or Zombie Buster or Princess Kidnapper 1&2  is fantastic in VR. All those games have one problem in common, they're too short, but they ALL are WOW!! People like yourself simply either didn't have a chance to play it or simply are  unaware of what VR really is. There might never be a rush to buy VR for Christmas for little Timmy, simply because it's so expensive and general low awareness of what VR really is, but it's not going away like 3D TV.
Now go buy it and MARVEL!
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on May 04, 2017, 02:15:16 pm
Didn't Nintendo supposedly file a bunch of VR related ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- for the Switch already?  Like augmented reality or something?

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ChadTower on May 04, 2017, 02:17:31 pm



I finished Batman VR.  It was very cool but I wouldn't buy a PS4 + VR for it.  The whole game was maybe an hour long.  It's basically a PC style point and click adventure with some VR aspects (grabbing/throwing objects, manipulation with the Move controllers).  The environment is extremely immersive, though, as is the sound.


I keep requesting the location get Resident Evil 7.  That could turn out to be a real killer app. 


Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 04, 2017, 03:22:11 pm
By now pretty much all of you nay-sayers have admitted you don't own the "real thing", real thing being of course Oculus rift and HTC Vive. You talking about "killer-app" like you have any idea what killer-app for VR is. I am here to tell you after playing with my Rift, just about EVERY game I tried IS a killer app! People just don't realize that even the dinkiest games is WOW! in VR.
Have you tried:

I respect your opinion.  But you demonstrate another similarity between 3DTV and VR, and that is that fervent supporters simply are unable to understand, or even believe, that there are those not enamored by the technology.  Supporters of both are usually those who have made significant investments in the high end of the tech, and feel that those who don't feel the way they do, haven't experienced it "on a setup like mine", or are coming from a standpoint of "sour grapes" because they can't afford it.

I assure you that in most cases, these assertions don't hold water.  The lower-end provides a "taste" of what is possible.  Either one likes it and craves a more advanced experience, or they think "Meh, kinda cool, but not for me."   Much like the home arcade machine enthusiast (we know who we are ;)), VR enthusiasts are (currently) a niche crowd.  The majority is still looking at it from a cost/benefit/usability standpoint, and it's a tough haul through that filter.  Enthusiasts will endure the shortcomings, whatever they may be.  The mass market, however, tends not to, and unless those shortcomings are somehow made far more palatable, the road ahead is pretty rocky for the tech.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: mimic on May 04, 2017, 03:58:19 pm

 The lower-end provides a "taste" of what is possible.  Either one likes it and craves a more advanced experience, or they think "Meh, kinda cool, but not for me."   Much like the home arcade machine enthusiast (we know who we are ;)), VR enthusiasts are (currently) a niche crowd.  The majority is still looking at it from a cost/benefit/usability standpoint, and it's a tough haul through that filter.  Enthusiasts will endure the shortcomings, whatever they may be.  The mass market, however, tends not to, and unless those shortcomings are somehow made far more palatable, the road ahead is pretty rocky for the tech.

I'm sorry I have to disagree here. I had a 3D monitor for the longest time now and I can't remember the last time I switched to 3D to play a game on it (pretty much any game that is FPS), so when I purchased Oculus Rift I thought I had an idea what to expect, but what I experienced instead exceeded all my expectations! To have 2 virtual hands and being able to manipulate objects or hold objects is nothing like just looking at something, which you have experienced so far.  When I play games like mentioned above Princess Kidnapper and I get that haptic feedback in my hand plus the sound of the bow being pulled in my ears, I start to believe that I am really holding something in my hands other than 2 controllers!
It's like saying I know how it feels to drive a Lamborghini, simply because I drove Yugo. And by driving Lamborghini I mean the whole experience of (stereotypical) women throwing themselves at you, everyone wants to be friends with you plus of course being able to drive without speed limits.
So unless you give it solid at least 1 hour, with the REAL THING, the whole shebang (controllers + room scale), I'm sorry I cannot trust your opinion nor opinion of anyone formed simply on experience with phone VR.
I'm sorry return when you tried that.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: mimic on May 04, 2017, 04:09:11 pm



I finished Batman VR.  It was very cool but I wouldn't buy a PS4 + VR for it.  The whole game was maybe an hour long.  It's basically a PC style point and click adventure with some VR aspects (grabbing/throwing objects, manipulation with the Move controllers).  The environment is extremely immersive, though, as is the sound.


I keep requesting the location get Resident Evil 7.  That could turn out to be a real killer app.

That's my point exactly. Batman VR in itself IS a killer app, it just too damn SHORT! Once developers will start to make longer games (which of course is based on amount of units sold, which in itself catch 22) and improve flaws like tethered units and better resolution + wider FOV, VR will only get bigger audience, it's not gonna shrink like 3DTVs. It has enough traction as is.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ChadTower on May 04, 2017, 04:17:14 pm



Well, here's the thing, though... it's only $20.  That's not so bad for this game.  There would have to be a LOT of games like this but I feel that's a fair price for the game. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on May 04, 2017, 04:27:02 pm
Phone VR and PSVR are not really comparable.
I have not been fortunate enough to play with a rift etc so cant compare to them.

But a phone experience is never going to compare to "real" experience.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on May 04, 2017, 04:46:55 pm
Quick question for you VR-ists (I have yet to try anything more than Occulus Dev version 1, years ago) : What is it like when the worlds are abstract and non-real? Is it like the uncanny valley for human CGI, or is it "wow, I'm inside art!" type of thing?

I've never really had any sort of "uncanny valley" experience in VR.  It's possible to have a disconnect between the real world and the VR world when things don't quite line up, but in general VR is quite convincing even in the more abstract or cartoony games.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on May 04, 2017, 04:53:50 pm
Any good interactive porn yet? 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on May 04, 2017, 04:57:49 pm
I've said this a million times on this forum but some of you need to pick out your ears.  Optional gaming accessories do not sell well... this isn't opinion, it's fact.  Go back the entire history of console and pc gaming and you'll find this.  The few exceptions to this rule are accessories that fix a defect in the standard equipment, like the 6 button genesis pad or the wii's nunchuck accessory and even then they get a mere fraction of the support  of the default stuff. 

But has there been anything as compelling as VR?  Not really.

What people have been desiring since the beginning of gaming is being inside the game.  This is what a lot of gaming technology has been pushing for decades; bigger and sharper screens, more immersive audio, various peripherals to increase immersion.  Nothing else has really succeeded at this and that's where modern VR comes in.  Yes, there are still barriers to entry and the technology has a lot of room to improve.  But even current gen VR creates an experience you can't otherwise get from a monitor.  For the first time, we get to feel like we're inside a video game.

Quote
I mean you can look at the VR units like a monitor, but even then it looks like they aren't going to sell, thus my comparison to 3d tvs.  A 3d gaming monitor is a lot cheaper than a headset and the glasses are far less cumbersome and you would get a rudimentary 3d effect... yet no one is interested.... 3d monitor/tv sales tanked a few years ago.  So if nobody is interested in that, then the prohibitive cost of a VR headset, with it's even more cumbersome interface isn't going to appeal to the casuals at all, which, like it or not, are the people you have to get on your side for a product to sell well enough to get some actual games made for it.

You can't look at VR like a monitor.  The actual technology (including tracking and motion control) is far beyond a mere display screen.  This is something people not really familiar with the tech probably can't appreciate, hence the fallicious comparisons to things like 3DTVs.

The other issue with comparing to 3D TV's, which I brought up previously is that 3D TV's have largely gone through the complete cycle (early adoption, mainstreaming and then fading out).  VR is still well in the early adoption phase.  There are a lot of things that still need to happen for VR to gain traction: development of standards, improving hardware, making it more affordable, and creating more robust content.  Once we get through those stages we'll have a better idea of VR's long-term viability.

Quote
If VR has any kind of future, it's an industrialized, public one like what Chad just mentioned. 

This is funny to me because you sound almost exactly like this prediction about the failure of laptops catching on with the mainstream:

Quote
Sales representatives, service managers, field auditors of all varieties have not been adequately served by the computer industry in pushing laptop computers. As the technology of these machines, particularly of their displays, improves, and as their price declines, a lot of briefcase computers will probably be sold. And as the software that is capable of turning them into true satellite offices becomes refined, they will probably even be used - in fact, profitably so.

But the real future of the laptop computer will remain in the specialized niche markets.

http://www.nytimes.com/1985/12/08/business/the-executive-computer.html (http://www.nytimes.com/1985/12/08/business/the-executive-computer.html)

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on May 04, 2017, 05:09:26 pm
While it might sound cool to play a "twitch" FPS in VR, the concept is not going to translate very well.

Yes it does.  I speak from experience with this playing the VR ports of the Serious Sam games and Doom 3, for example.

Now there are considerations when either porting or designing a game for VR particularly around interface/HUD, controls and locomotion.  But with those considerations in mind, every single mainstream game genre can translate into VR.  Playing a game like Serious Sam or Doom 3 in VR is a whole different experience when you're inside the game, physically aiming and fighting life-sized enemies.

Quote
3) Required isolation associated with the experience.  In one form or another, each limits the ability to interact with the user's surroundings and freely move from one activity to another.

In my experience demoing VR for friends 'n family, the isolation isn't too much of a big deal.  For one, experiences are typically mirrored on a monitor or TV so that people can see what the person is experiencing as well as watching their physical reactions.  And quite honestly, that can be entertaining in its own right.

There are also a growing crop of asymmetric multiplayer VR games where one person is in VR while other players can interact via the traditional keyboard/mouse/monitor.

And finally, a lot of gaming is isolating in its own right.  VR isn't that much different than plopping down in front of a computer with a headset and playing CoD for 3 straight hours.

Quote
I have tried VR with a high end cell phone (Snapdragon 820 based w/ a large 2k screen, and more sensors than I can remember) and mid-range headset holder.  The experiences ranged from ridiculous and ineffective, to immersive and mildly heart-pounding.  The latter being the demo of massive great-white sharks swimming around you.  But aside from that one experience, and I sampled much of what was readily available, I didn't feel like donning the gear was worth what was eventually delivered for the effort.  Aside from that first 3-hour exploratory, I haven't used it since.

Cell phone VR is quite frankly, kind of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- and the most gimmicky of VR.  Proper gaming VR (i.e. Rift/Vive) with room-scale + motion controls is a whole different experience.  I believe an earlier poster had an apt comparison that basing one's opinion on cellphone VR is like basing one's opinion on cars by driving a PowerWheels.

Quote
At some point, the "killer app" may eventually come along which will be worth the cash extraction, but I don't see it yet.  IMHO, it's going to need much better technology, at a much lower price point for it to gain real traction in the marketplace.

Not even just technology or price, but I think the most important thing VR lacks right now is good standards (APIs, hardware).  Right now the market as nascent as it is, is quite fragmented.  It's going to take time for standards to emerge followed by price drops, technology improvements and better content.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on May 04, 2017, 05:21:35 pm
The lower-end provides a "taste" of what is possible.  Either one likes it and craves a more advanced experience, or they think "Meh, kinda cool, but not for me."

I wonder if cell phone VR is actually hurting the public perception of VR.  Cell phone VR is where I'd agree with the skeptical views of VR; it is rather gimmicky in my experience and not particularly useful.  But it's a world of difference compared to gaming VR w/ motion controllers.  It's also incredibly difficult to understand what one is missing until one actually tries the latter.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on May 04, 2017, 05:22:30 pm
An amusing article, but some quick glances around Google reveal laptops didn't overtake desktops until about 10 years ago, so I'd say their pessimism wasn't completely untrue.

Tablets are going to kill them both right about... now.... and nobody saw that coming.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 04, 2017, 05:40:51 pm
Phone VR and PSVR are not really comparable.

True.  My phone has a higher resolution display :)  Even that I found to be lacking for a full sense of immersion.

Mimic, you really are making my point.  A quick perusal of the AV forums will show a ton of posts by the people who loved (and still do) the 3DTV technology.  When confronted by those who thought it was cool, but not at the level of quality/support/ease of use to make them want to take the plunge, the retort is almost always "you really need to check out (pick a title) on my new (pick a display)". 

And to "jump the shark" even further where comparisons are concerned, do you eat much kobe beef?  Why not?  Is it the cost?  The need to dress up in a suit and tie to get into the fancy restaurants which serve it?  Is it difficult to come by?  Does regular high quality beef do it for you?  Well, it could be said that you don't know what you are missing if you think regular ol' quality meat is fine.  You just aren't willing to do those things mentioned above for the "experience" of eating it, and you are fooling yourself if you think a good tenderloin tastes anything at all like it.

Ok, you see where I'm going.  And for the record, no, I've never had kobe beef, but I have eaten a few cows in my lifetime.  I know what they taste like :). What I'm getting at is that for many, they will see VR as a step backward in gaming, due to the many factors with which it is currently afflicted.  4K gaming is still in it's infancy,and small dual-4k screens are really what is required to bring home the "reality" part of VR in the visuals department.   Driving dual high resolution displays takes a lot of power at this moment in time. Premium content is still in short supply.  And so-on.  And even more troubling is the fact that all of this expensive gear will very likely be woefully obsolete if, and it's a big if, these issues are able to be addressed significantly enough for mass market adoption.

I don't blame anyone for being an early adopter of tech.  To be able to play with something which never existed before is often worth the cost of admission.  But those who weren't on the edge of their seat waiting for it, don't miss not having it.  The VR industry has to do something to make those people believe they're missing something amazing, and then deliver big time when those folks finally jump on-board.  I just think it's too early for the industry to be able to provide such a compelling reason, and it may take a decade before it can.

I wonder if cell phone VR is actually hurting the public perception of VR.  Cell phone VR is where I'd agree with the skeptical views of VR; it is rather gimmicky in my experience and not particularly useful.  But it's a world of difference compared to gaming VR w/ motion controllers; it's also incredibly difficult to understand what one is missing until one actually tries the latter.

I'm not sure myself.  In one sense, it can do a very good job of demonstrating the "feeling" of being someplace you are actually not.  Many people have used motion controllers of some nature as well, and marrying the two in one's mind can give a general idea of what to expect (albeit at a different level of quality.)  But the thing aficionados have a hard time with is that VR is a paradigm shift in a pastime which traditionally has much lower requirements upon it's users.  The cell phone VR units demonstrate some of this pretty clearly.  If the user can't get past strapping something to their head, and completely isolating themselves from the outside world, they will never go further, as even the expensive gear requires this sacrifice.  For those individuals to to do this, again, the reasons must be extremely compelling.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: mimic on May 04, 2017, 06:28:31 pm
@RandyT
Look, we can argue about all sorts of details ad-nauseam and in the end comes down to one thing. Do you consider yourself a TRUE gamer, because if you are, then you  will trust us and at the very least you (and other nay-sayers) TRY the damn thing (not just speculate), and if not, then maybe you're on these forums more into just building arcades just for fun of building arcades, like many here stated. Then that makes more sense, that you're just NOT interested in the gaming aspect of VR or gaming in general. 
I may not be young, but in my heart, I am hard-core gamer and always have been one (I'm not saying that's something to be proud of or trying to make myself someone special. I am just the target group of such equipment). And equipment like this, is more aimed at the same crowd that is willing to plonk $1000 plus on the latest hardware, just so they can have the best experience. And people are spending insane amount of money on hardware like latest video cards, companies like NVidia or AMD are not going anywhere anytime soon and same will be for VR manufacturers.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on May 04, 2017, 08:12:27 pm
There is no Kobe beef in America.  If you were told otherwise, you were lied to and ripped off.

And, in my day, ultra high fat content beef was "prison grade."

 :angry:

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Mike A on May 04, 2017, 08:39:31 pm
VR makes me sick to my stomach within 5 minutes of play. You can keep your vomit machines. Now please try to argue with me and tell me I just haven't had the premium vomit experience yet. ::)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on May 04, 2017, 08:41:19 pm
VR\AR is at the laser disk stage of optical media right now. Some think its cool and changes the game, other thinks it is bulky expensive and to many shot coming to change anything; but in time it will get to the CD\DVD stage and everyone will have it.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Mike A on May 04, 2017, 08:45:37 pm
Or it will stay at the laserdisc stage and end up in the dumpster. The market will determine success or failure. The quality of the experience means nothing if big corporations decide they can't make enough money from it.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on May 04, 2017, 08:50:26 pm
I'm not sure myself.  In one sense, it can do a very good job of demonstrating the "feeling" of being someplace you are actually not.  Many people have used motion controllers of some nature as well, and marrying the two in one's mind can give a general idea of what to expect (albeit at a different level of quality.)

In my experience, the best immersion is achieved with a combination of a headset (stereoscopic vision + head tracking), room-scale, and motion controllers.  It's one thing to be looking around in VR space, but when you physically start moving around and interacting with the VR world, it's when everything 'clicks' and you feel like you're truly there.

This is why when people talk about trying cell phone VR, my first instinct is to roll my eyes; in my view it really is a bastardized experience of what VR is like.  And I'll be honest, I didn't think room-scale and motion controllers would matter at first, but once trying them it accounts for at least 50% of the experience.

The other problem with cell phone VR is we're talking about devices not really designed for it.  The result is immediate compromises for things like refresh rates or tracking latency.

Quote
But the thing aficionados have a hard time with is that VR is a paradigm shift in a pastime which traditionally has much lower requirements upon it's users.  The cell phone VR units demonstrate some of this pretty clearly.  If the user can't get past strapping something to their head, and completely isolating themselves from the outside world, they will never go further, as even the expensive gear requires this sacrifice.  For those individuals to to do this, again, the reasons must be extremely compelling.

In my view the experiences are compelling.  I've shown off the Vive to a number of friends and family and everyone has been blown away by it.  This even includes my 70 yo technophobic mother who was initially opposed to the very idea of VR.  But once I put her in it and in particular a lot of the space experiences, she thought it was the neatest thing ever and has used it on multiple occasions now.

What I find in talking to people is that barrier to entry isn't VR itself.  It's everything else around the current state of VR.  This includes market fragmentation and competing standards (i.e. people afraid of backing the 'wrong' system), price, system requirements and content.  And in the latter case especially, it's bloody hard to market VR content to non-VR users.  Experiences that may seem like ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- on a monitor can be extremely compelling in VR.  Vise-versa, gaming on a regular monitor that people think they want in VR may not be as ideal.  But without knowing what VR is like, it's almost impossible to appreciate what makes for good VR content.

In the long run, I think we'll get there.  I'm convinced that VR is the future of gaming.  But it likely won't be until another generation or two of VR headsets before it starts having more mainstream appeal and the barrier to entry come down.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on May 04, 2017, 08:54:22 pm
VR makes me sick to my stomach within 5 minutes of play. You can keep your vomit machines. Now please try to argue with me and tell me I just haven't had the premium vomit experience yet. ::)

Well, what have you actually tried?  Nausea in VR is usually a result of artificial locomotion, too low refresh rate and/or too high latency.  A combination of any of those can quickly lead to a bad time.

On the other hand, 90+ Hz refresh rates, <20ms latency and no artificial locomotion and you shouldn't feel nauseous.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on May 04, 2017, 09:06:24 pm
Btw, I've noticed that in general it seems when people post about having a bad experience with VR, there seems to be a reluctance to explain what they've actually used.  I've seen this a number of times now in various forums.

OTOH, when people have a good experience, usually it's much more specific.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Mike A on May 04, 2017, 09:09:45 pm
It has nothing to do with any of that technical babble. It is motion sickness plain and simple. The better it simulates real life the worse it gets.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Mike A on May 04, 2017, 09:12:50 pm
Oculus DK2, Playstation, Cardboard cell phone, Vive, Oculus consumer, Amusement park VR. Is that specific enough? I am not trying to covertly subvert your VR utopia. It is not a conspiracy. It makes me ill. If you like it that is fantastic. It looks like a lot of fun.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on May 04, 2017, 09:18:14 pm
It has nothing to do with any of that technical babble. It is motion sickness plain and simple. The better it simulates real life the worse it gets.

Color me skeptical, but if you tried a VR experience with no artificial motion, how could it be motion sickness?  That why I'm asking what specifically you've really tried (i.e. which headset, what software).  The Vive tracking for example is basically 1:1 so any real world motion should match VR motion.  That's why it doesn't typically cause people nausea, unless there is something else involved like artificial motion or possibly tracking glitches.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on May 04, 2017, 09:25:38 pm
Oculus DK2, Playstation, Cardboard cell phone, Vive, Oculus consumer, Amusement park VR. Is that specific enough?

I'd be more interested in the software side.  There's a big difference between playing something with no artificial movement than something with a lot of artificial movement.

I generally don't get queasy in VR, but even I've run into a few games with artificial motion (particularly rotation) that can make me dizzy or give me a headache.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on May 04, 2017, 10:19:18 pm
So I feel like I've swung at this piñata enough, but here's one more and I pray I'm done.

This is a forum of predominantly white collar, middle aged men that are willing to throw too much time and money at video games in whatever form they appear.  There is overwhelming reluctance around here to embrace VR.  If we can't be convinced then I'm not sure anyone can.  This is the one, and only, thing we are the target for.  I mean, $1,000?  All of you are more successful than me and I've thrown more than that at lousy pinball machines.

I appreciate the passion some of you are displaying, but the wounds of Dactyl Nightmare will never heal.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on May 04, 2017, 10:33:27 pm
This is a forum of predominantly white collar, middle aged men that are willing to throw too much time and money at video games in whatever form they appear.  There is overwhelming reluctance around here to embrace VR.  If we can't be convinced then I'm not sure anyone can.  This is the one, and only, thing we are the target for.  I mean, $1,000?  All of you are more successful than me and I've thrown more than that at lousy pinball machines.

I appreciate the passion some of you are displaying, but the wounds of Dactyl Nightmare will never heal.

It doesn't entirely surprise me, though.  There's seems to be a bit of "hype fatigue" when it comes to VR.  Partially from the hype back in the 1990's for those of us who remember.  And partially from the hype around other so-called revolutionary technologies like 3DTV, the Wii, Kinect, etc.  Hence, it's common to see references to those when

Plus there's the simple fact that most people haven't tried it.  And no, cell phone VR doesn't count.  Unless one tries a proper gaming VR setup, it's really hard to appreciate what VR is truly capable of and how awesome it can be.

For me, the proof of VR's viability as an experience is just based on the demos I've given to various friends and family.  Everyone from young to old, gamers, non-gamers, and VR skeptics have thoroughly enjoyed it.  In fact, I find those most skeptical of VR tend to be the most blown away by the experience.  At which point the barriers to entry become everything else around VR, particularly the current high-priced hardware and fragmented market.  But I have no doubt that if some of those issues get sorted and the hardware improves and becomes more affordable, VR will eventually reach the mainstream.  It's just going to be a matter of time.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on May 04, 2017, 10:49:29 pm
Quote
So I feel like I've swung at this piñata enough, but here's one more and I pray I'm done.

This is a forum of predominantly white collar, middle aged men that are willing to throw too much time and money at video games in whatever form they appear.  There is overwhelming reluctance around here to embrace VR.  If we can't be convinced then I'm not sure anyone can.  This is the one, and only, thing we are the target for.  I mean, $1,000?  All of you are more successful than me and I've thrown more than that at lousy pinball machines.

I appreciate the passion some of you are displaying, but the wounds of Dactyl Nightmare will never heal.

Do you own a smart phone? If not nothing more needs to be said from you.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: yotsuya on May 04, 2017, 11:16:59 pm
Holy ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---,  I'm glad I'm too old to give a crap about stuff like this.

In my day,  we Luddites used to play games on boards made of cardboard that used plastic pieces. We survived.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on May 04, 2017, 11:22:54 pm
Yeah, video game night has morphed into board game night.  Try Pandemic Legacy, it's been interesting.

And, yes, I've owned smart phones for 10 years.  Kthx?

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: yotsuya on May 04, 2017, 11:26:33 pm
Yeah, video game night has morphed into board game night.  Try Pandemic Legacy, it's been interesting.

And, yes, I've owned smart phones for 10 years.  Kthx?
Did you dent that mic when you dropped  it, James?
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Howard_Casto on May 05, 2017, 01:08:18 am
I think pbj nailed it.  I have probably 3k worth of arcade hardware and who knows how much console stuff.  I have all kinds of crazy, obscure stuff that nobody in their right mind would buy.  I still don't want to invest in VR.  It sounds like the majority that have chimed in agree with me.  That means, for this generation at least, unless something changes, VR is in some serious trouble. 

Btw, yes pbj, Nintendo has already filed patents for several AR/VR attachments for the switch.  Of course they file patents for anything and everything they might possibly do, so that doesn't mean much.  And they just announced a 2DS XL... dumping the 3D... so it's doubtful.  For the record if they do end up doing it I doubt the experience is going to be very good... it's only a 720p screen after all, but you might get a handful of really substantial games that would be enough to generate interest for a future piece of hardware. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ChadTower on May 05, 2017, 09:37:17 am
And, in my day, ultra high fat content beef was "prison grade."

 :angry:




In my great grandfather's day lobsters were prison food.  In Nova Scotia it was all the inmates were ever fed and they would occasionally revolt over being fed garbage.  It was considered inhumane.  Things do change.


BTW, video games isn't the only thing aimed right at us.  The whole craft beer industry depends on us too.   :laugh2:
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: mimic on May 05, 2017, 11:22:07 am
So I feel like I've swung at this piñata enough, but here's one more and I pray I'm done.

This is a forum of predominantly white collar, middle aged men that are willing to throw too much time and money at video games in whatever form they appear.  There is overwhelming reluctance around here to embrace VR.  If we can't be convinced then I'm not sure anyone can.  This is the one, and only, thing we are the target for.  I mean, $1,000?  All of you are more successful than me and I've thrown more than that at lousy pinball machines.

I appreciate the passion some of you are displaying, but the wounds of Dactyl Nightmare will never heal.

I have to admit this is very good point and I was gonna leave the "horse" alone, but... I was thinking about what you've said and I think you're wrong that we (middle aged man) are the intended target audience. I think millennials are. We maybe able to afford it easier, but we are not the target demographic. I think most of you guys consider themselves as gamers, while really you dwell in nostalgia, even if you buy new consoles it's most likely because it has a root in your childhood memories of having a console. So out of curiosity I think a real test would be whether you have latest PC Hardware, say something to the effect at least GTX 970 and up and i5/i7 or AMD equivalent . If you do I'll shut up, maybe I am really in minority as to what VR is to most people.

And one last thing regarding killer-app. There really doesn't need to be any kind of special games for VR, native support in current 3D FPS games would be a lot in itself, yes this is not really happening, but not that much is needed to add to library of VR games. And again Doom 3 is a great example of that and VR was only added as an afterthought, and it works out great. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: markc74 on May 05, 2017, 11:55:46 am
Well I'm typing this on my  i7 / 16gb RAM / 512gb SSD laptop and I can wholeheartedly say that I think VR rocks. Although I only use PS VR as I left the mega-gaming-uber-PC crowd a while ago when I realised 99% of the best games came out on console and having a PC didn't offer any tangible advantage over sitting on your couch and playing a game.

I think in the same way arcade machines offer us a cool nostalgia trip (and playing Robotron will never get old), there's a lot of experiences out there that can be fun in a completely different way. I agree with the OP in that if you have the right kit - it's a mind blowing experience. There's potential that goes way beyond what passive 3D TV's do and bring you into a game that you simply couldn't do before.

I guess I'm a true gamer - arcades are my first love - but I'll more than happily lose an hour or two playing Dirt Rally in VR and enjoy every second. It has issues, definitely, but I sincerely hope that it does take off as the issues will be resolved in time.

That said, 90% of my gaming time is now spent playing Zelda on Switch. Sheeet - how awesome is that game?!??

And I'm 42. Which I guess makes me middle aged.. bah.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 05, 2017, 03:22:04 pm
I have to admit this is very good point and I was gonna leave the "horse" alone, but... I was thinking about what you've said and I think you're wrong that we (middle aged man) are the intended target audience. I think millennials are. We maybe able to afford it easier, but we are not the target demographic. I think most of you guys consider themselves as gamers, while really you dwell in nostalgia, even if you buy new consoles it's most likely because it has a root in your childhood memories of having a console. So out of curiosity I think a real test would be whether you have latest PC Hardware, say something to the effect at least GTX 970 and up and i5/i7 or AMD equivalent . If you do I'll shut up, maybe I am really in minority as to what VR is to most people.

And one last thing regarding killer-app. There really doesn't need to be any kind of special games for VR, native support in current 3D FPS games would be a lot in itself, yes this is not really happening, but not that much is needed to add to library of VR games. And again Doom 3 is a great example of that and VR was only added as an afterthought, and it works out great.

There seems to be a lot of myopic viewpoints being displayed here.  Does owning a VR setup, and/or a PC gaming rig really give one license to decide who is and is not a "true gamer"?  Does a PC game play differently on a system capable of only 1080p, than it does on one which can display 4k with the graphic frills?  My nephew pulled that "true gamer" crap on me once, because I told him that the rehash 8-bit graphic indy titles weren't my bag.  What he failed to understand is that I have limited time to play, and when I do have a few hours to burn, I'm usually not looking to play a game with 20+ year old play mechanics and graphics, and when I do, I'll fire up the arcade machine or one of the many classic consoles/computers I own.

This is such a ridiculous exercise, but maybe we should all join in and add our own personal criterion to the "true gamer" list.  Here's some of mine to start:

If you play racing games with a thumbstick, rather than a full FF racing wheel, physical shifters and pedals, and a dedicated racing cockpit using a projection screen, then you can't be a "true gamer".
If you play shooting games with a Wii-mote like device on an LCD, rather than a dedicated large CRT and real light guns then you can't be a "true gamer".
If you play classic arcade games from your couch with a gamepad, rather than standing in front of a massive wooden cabinet full of expensive specialized controls, and a CRT as God intended, you can't possibly be a "true gamer"
If you play emulated pinball on a flat screen, instead of buying some heap of a real pinball machine and restoring it yourself so it plays like new, and play on that,  then you aren't a "true gamer"

Ok, I'll cut the sarcasm now.  The point is, while the things on that list are meaningful to me personally, they probably don't mean squat to those who don't share the same priorities.  And the simple fact that they don't share those priorities doesn't make them any less of a "true gamer".  I'm glad you like your toy.  I like my toys as well.  The difference is that I don't expect anyone to covet mine or care if they don't. :)

When VR becomes a "must have", and doesn't require a dedicated room full of wires and gadgets in order to get the "full experience", I'll be on-board.  But that day looks like it's years (if not a decade) away.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ChadTower on May 05, 2017, 03:30:22 pm



You guys are way overthinking this stuff. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: markc74 on May 05, 2017, 03:34:33 pm
True gamer = someone who enjoys playing games - regardless of tech.

Here we just have some opposing views on whether vr is Awesome or not. Personally i think it's cool but i hope its best years lie ahead as at the moment there are huge obstacles to overcome. As is, there's a lot to like but i totally understand why people aren't sold on it.

Anyway, it's not a real driving game unless you're in a real car doing 120mph up a motorway listening to splash wave.

But enough about my driving ban...  >:D
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 05, 2017, 04:37:09 pm
True gamer = someone who enjoys playing games - regardless of tech.

+eleventy

(and don't take any of that list above seriously.....I'm still jealous of the folks with full-blown virtual pinball machines, and I will own one as soon as I get off my butt to build it :) )

Quote
Anyway, it's not a real driving game unless you're in a real car doing 120mph up a motorway listening to splash wave.

Pffft.  I lived in Germany for three years when the autobahn had no speed limit.  120mph was "going shopping" speed  ;D

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: mimic on May 05, 2017, 04:59:11 pm
Aaaand You're OUT!
Nope, sorry. Not a TRUE gamer!
It's not about what you have or can afford, it's about desire to have it! Of course I play racing sims with thumbstick, but would I prefer to play it with dedicated controllers, of course! I just don't have the room for yet another gadget to store or spend ~$200 to play one type of game, but I would love to!
You on the other hand have no desire to even try VR, and the fact that you can't state specs of your PC (home to 1000s of additional games), just proves it to me NOT a TRUE gamer.
Casual gamer, is acceptable.  :D
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 05, 2017, 05:01:34 pm
Nope, sorry. Not a TRUE gamer!
It's not about what you have or can afford, it's about desire to have it!

I don't (currently) desire VR.  Does that mean I won the internet?

(and you are off by a factor of 7 on the racing rig costs...a true gamer would know this :) )
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: mimic on May 05, 2017, 05:19:45 pm
(and you are off by a factor of 7 on the racing rig costs...a true gamer would know this :) )

You got me there, but it's only because I know I cannot afford and gives me only access to a limited amount of additional games. But I DO desire so ;)

EDIT: I'm waiting for more non-gamers to come out of the shadows. SHAME ding-ding, SHAME ding-ding, SHAME....
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 05, 2017, 05:57:19 pm
You got me there, but it's only because I know I cannot afford and gives me only access to a limited amount of additional games. But I DO desire so ;)

You keep making my point for me, and it's a bit entertaining that you don't see it.  You want to have something, but there are barriers preventing it.  In your case, those barriers are money and space.  Ergo, no joy for you, but the options are there waiting, ready when you are.  You could have chosen to go one way, but you chose a different path, based on those barriers.

In my case, what I (and perhaps most of the detractors) expect from VR, is not available due to technical barriers.  We cannot get what we really want, because it does not yet exist in the form we desire.  By your metric, a "true gamer" would just concede and throw money at something, regardless of how well it fits their needs or expectations.  That just insults the intelligence of "true gamers", by painting them as addicts which have no choice but to fork over cash when something new is offered.   While I am sure that there are plenty of "trust-fund kids" out there who fit cozily into the box you have constructed, the rest of us are informed consumers, and realize that there is real money at stake.     Money which, if directed toward other gaming interests, will likely be better spent on something we actually want, rather than accept far less simply because it's all that is currently available.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: yotsuya on May 05, 2017, 06:06:01 pm
I'm an OG gamer. ---fudgesicle--- VR.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on May 05, 2017, 06:13:02 pm
nm.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: mimic on May 05, 2017, 07:21:32 pm
And another casual gamer came out of the woodworks! yotsuya "Welcome"! SHAME ding-ding, SHAME ding ding, SHAME....

Seriously though. Even if you're right, you are the one in lose-lose situation, because if I am wrong, then at the very least I'll experience games that you will never have chance to play and experience. If I am right and VR prevails then I can say "See I told you so", however all you can do is either keep on waiting, who knows how long (if ever if it's another bust, and good luck playing with your arthritis btw) or can tell me "See I told you so!" and that's the whole satisfaction you'll get out of it. I however if it works out I'll have the satisfaction that I was "there" from the infancy, just like I have the satisfaction I was there from the infancy of gaming in general, that later generations don't understand.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Mike A on May 05, 2017, 07:23:31 pm
Sanctimonious much?
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: mimic on May 05, 2017, 07:30:41 pm
Sanctimonious much?

Yup, feels good too.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: yotsuya on May 05, 2017, 08:33:26 pm
Yeah, have fun with the goggles and stuff. I've been playing video games since the Carter Administration. I don't need some dude on the Internet to validate my credentials.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on May 05, 2017, 09:09:02 pm
Just out of curiosity, but for those opposed to VR, my question is... why?

Part of the reason I ask is that growing up in the 80's, one of the holy grails of video gaming was the idea of being inside the game.  Movies and shows like Tron, Captain N: The Gamemaster, etc, teased us with this idea and VR seemed like the best way to fulfill it.

Unfortunately, VR has largely been a technology where the idea has always exceeded the tech.  But modern VR (particularly gaming VR) is starting to realize that idea.

I just wonder why anyone wouldn't want to experience that?   ???
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: yotsuya on May 05, 2017, 09:27:45 pm
Just out of curiosity, but for those opposed to VR, my question is... why?

Part of the reason I ask is that growing up in the 80's, one of the holy grails of video gaming was the idea of being inside the game.  Movies and shows like Tron, Captain N: The Gamemaster, etc, teased us with this idea and VR seemed like the best way to fulfill it.

Unfortunately, VR has largely been a technology where the idea has always exceeded the tech.  But modern VR (particularly gaming VR) is starting to realize that idea.

I just wonder why anyone wouldn't want to experience that?   ???
That's a great question, and I actually value your input on it because you experience it and seem to be honest in your assessment and enthusiasm. But I'm going to be honest, while I'm sure it's a really cool technology, I'm just not interested investing the money and time / space into it to do it right. I spent years chasing the perfect the video card and rig to play early FPS is in the 2000s. I just got tired of that.

So honestly, I think it's cool that you enjoy it and you're willing to invest into it. That's awesome. I don't think it makes me any less of a gamer because I'm not interested in it. And I really detest anybody who insinuates otherwise.

So it's not that I have any true opposition to it. It's just... I really don't care about it.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Mike A on May 05, 2017, 09:52:56 pm
VR is the dippin' dots of video gaming.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: jtslade on May 05, 2017, 11:47:15 pm
VR is the dippin' dots of video gaming.


Play Onward for a hour. Sweating. Tense. Teamwork, touch your radio on your shoulder and call out if anyone can see anyone. Shots from about 200 yards ring out. Diving to the ground as bullets whiz by your head. Pop up and take a couple of bad guys with a 4x scope.. lay down some smoke and run like hell to escort the VIP to the extraction.

The feeling is incredible. Fun and panic filled at the same time..

That was just tonight.

Maybe next is working with 3 other guys in IronWolf to try and sink a destroyer. Go topside and look out over the ocean waves as they rush by..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on May 06, 2017, 03:19:39 am
I can understand why people dont want to put money into it.
Its is expensive and it does require some time and effort.

However I really dont think its a fad, It is the future really.
We all have thought about or wished to be in a game. Which gamer wouldn't?
Be it being in DOOM blasting alien mutant scum or bouncing around as kid chameleon.

I dreamt back in the 90's about playing games ina fashion like the holo deck on star trek!

Now I am older and wiser, I doubt that will happen in my life time but current VR is the starting point for those kind of ideas.

It will develop to become smaller and cheaper better and better.

But we have to put money into it for people to develop it.
I am happy to be part of the beginning of this tech much the same as I was there at the beginning of gaming itself.

The fact is though that although I  may never get to play DOOM in a hollo deck, roundhouse kicking a imp in the face after blasting him with the double barrel. I can experience DOOM in VR with a headset.
And I can enjoy the experience because it is a good experience.

It took some getting used to though, I did get motion sickness at first but now after building up with small steps ime good :)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 06, 2017, 12:58:19 pm
Just out of curiosity, but for those opposed to VR, my question is... why?

Part of the reason I ask is that growing up in the 80's, one of the holy grails of video gaming was the idea of being inside the game.  Movies and shows like Tron, Captain N: The Gamemaster, etc, teased us with this idea and VR seemed like the best way to fulfill it.

Unfortunately, VR has largely been a technology where the idea has always exceeded the tech.  But modern VR (particularly gaming VR) is starting to realize that idea.

I just wonder why anyone wouldn't want to experience that?   ???

Pretty much what yots wrote.  I don't oppose it either.  If I oppose anything, it's the ratio of the cost to what is currently being delivered by the tech.  There are some interesting titles at the early stages of development, but as anyone who has been burned by fledgling tech in the past knows, it can be usurped by the next generation at any moment.  Or, just disappear from lack of market interest.  There are just so many negatives, that the latter is not out of the question, and a relative handful of avid supporters can't keep things moving forward. 

And that is really the "nut" of it.  It's a peripheral device that's far too costly for a "casual" purchase, and there isn't enough mass-market appeal being generated to get consumers over that hump.  It doesn't mean it will never happen. A killer-app could emerge which can convince consumers that the tech is worth the investment.  But it does mean that without this, the tech will languish for a very long time, until the price and technical hurdles are overcome.

I'll also state that those who think that a high-end phone is unable to provide a "taste" of the technology, simply doesn't know what they are talking about.  My phone has virtually every possible sensor, a high-quality 5.7" IPS screen with resolution that is 1.75 times that of the PSVR.   With good apps, the head movement tracking is fast and feels very natural.  What it can't provide, is movement within 3D space, which is the sketchiest part of being visually isolated from real-world objects.  It also can't provide user interaction without a Bluetooth controller (which I have).  I played with it some more last night.  One app stood out for me, and that was a ride in a flying car over a "BladeRunner-esque" cityscape.  The effect of looking out the windows at objects as they passed by, and seeing the driver and car internals in convincing 3D was definitely cool.  I almost expected to see my hands in view as I stretched them out in front of me.  And then something else struck me:  Even with the best technology currently available, I would never be able to naturally interact with the environment with only my hands. This is another level of disconnect, which is yet to be fully addressed.  Even with the best of what is available, the user is no more inside the virtual world, than a laparoscopic surgeon is inside a patient's chest cavity.  While better controllers than the PSMOVE are available, they are still controllers, and still motion controllers.  Motion controllers lack the precision of analog switches and levers, but those lack the freedom of movement and interaction.  The result is a mash-up of the two, which does not in any way mimic a human's natural interaction with a physical world.

My conclusion on all of this is that "VR" in it's current state is not VR at all, rather a very expensive and complicated display technology, albeit an interesting one, with positional tracking and specialized controllers.  In short, if true VR was a swimming pool, it currently costs $1500 to put your foot in it :).
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on May 06, 2017, 05:59:50 pm
I dont think anyone opposes VR. If they were handed a complete setup for free I imagine they would keep and enjoy it.

Last night I brought my Vive setup to the in-laws and we played some games. The kids really enjoyed it, and later the adults played some scary games. I was laughing ---my bottom--- off, its amazing to see how engulfed someone can get just within a minute of putting the headset on.

Setting everything up took about 15 mins, worst part was carrying the actual desktop. I have extendable poles with rubber stops on the ends so I can mount the base stations just about anywhere. One I had mounted really high, about 10 feet in the air and the other was just on a book shelf maybe 6 feet high. The play area was really small compared to what I am used to but it didn't bother anyone. We had a blast.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: yotsuya on May 06, 2017, 07:19:46 pm
I dont think anyone opposes VR. If they were handed a complete setup for free I imagine they would keep and enjoy it.

Last night I brought my Vive setup to the in-laws and we played some games. The kids really enjoyed it, and later the adults played some scary games. I was laughing ---my bottom--- off, its amazing to see how engulfed someone can get just within a minute of putting the headset on.

Setting everything up took about 15 mins, worst part was carrying the actual desktop. I have extendable poles with rubber stops on the ends so I can mount the base stations just about anywhere. One I had mounted really high, about 10 feet in the air and the other was just on a book shelf maybe 6 feet high. The play area was really small compared to what I am used to but it didn't bother anyone. We had a blast.
Well said.

I'd try it out of curiosity, and I'm sure the right system makes it an awesome experience. I'm just not personally interesting in investing in it,  and no amount of cheerleading or attempted gamer shaming is probably going to change that. I get more chuffed fixing 35 year old machines. Each to his own.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on May 07, 2017, 10:14:31 am
Just out of curiosity, but for those opposed to VR, my question is... why?

Part of the reason I ask is that growing up in the 80's, one of the holy grails of video gaming was the idea of being inside the game.  Movies and shows like Tron, Captain N: The Gamemaster, etc, teased us with this idea and VR seemed like the best way to fulfill it.

Unfortunately, VR has largely been a technology where the idea has always exceeded the tech.  But modern VR (particularly gaming VR) is starting to realize that idea.

I just wonder why anyone wouldn't want to experience that?   ???

Pretty much what yots wrote.  I don't oppose it either.  If I oppose anything, it's the ratio of the cost to what is currently being delivered by the tech.  There are some interesting titles at the early stages of development, but as anyone who has been burned by fledgling tech in the past knows, it can be usurped by the next generation at any moment.  Or, just disappear from lack of market interest.  There are just so many negatives, that the latter is not out of the question, and a relative handful of avid supporters can't keep things moving forward. 

And that is really the "nut" of it.  It's a peripheral device that's far too costly for a "casual" purchase, and there isn't enough mass-market appeal being generated to get consumers over that hump.  It doesn't mean it will never happen. A killer-app could emerge which can convince consumers that the tech is worth the investment.  But it does mean that without this, the tech will languish for a very long time, until the price and technical hurdles are overcome.

I'll also state that those who think that a high-end phone is unable to provide a "taste" of the technology, simply doesn't know what they are talking about.  My phone has virtually every possible sensor, a high-quality 5.7" IPS screen with resolution that is 1.75 times that of the PSVR.   With good apps, the head movement tracking is fast and feels very natural.  What it can't provide, is movement within 3D space, which is the sketchiest part of being visually isolated from real-world objects.  It also can't provide user interaction without a Bluetooth controller (which I have).  I played with it some more last night.  One app stood out for me, and that was a ride in a flying car over a "BladeRunner-esque" cityscape.  The effect of looking out the windows at objects as they passed by, and seeing the driver and car internals in convincing 3D was definitely cool.  I almost expected to see my hands in view as I stretched them out in front of me.  And then something else struck me:  Even with the best technology currently available, I would never be able to naturally interact with the environment with only my hands. This is another level of disconnect, which is yet to be fully addressed.  Even with the best of what is available, the user is no more inside the virtual world, than a laparoscopic surgeon is inside a patient's chest cavity.  While better controllers than the PSMOVE are available, they are still controllers, and still motion controllers.  Motion controllers lack the precision of analog switches and levers, but those lack the freedom of movement and interaction.  The result is a mash-up of the two, which does not in any way mimic a human's natural interaction with a physical world.

My conclusion on all of this is that "VR" in it's current state is not VR at all, rather a very expensive and complicated display technology, albeit an interesting one, with positional tracking and specialized controllers.  In short, if true VR was a swimming pool, it currently costs $1500 to put your foot in it :).

Thats the part that needs to be developed though Randy.
Suits that track our movements similar to whats used for motion capture should be the next logical step in the VR path, along with better GFX and display tech.

But they wont bother unless some interest is shown and people put these ideas out there.

Its very much in its infancy, but its clear to see the potential of it.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ChadTower on May 07, 2017, 05:47:33 pm



Dudes need to chill and accept that some people like VR and some people don't care about VR.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: yotsuya on May 07, 2017, 06:00:06 pm



Dudes need to chill and accept that some people like VR and some people don't care about VR.
Well said, Chad.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on May 07, 2017, 07:46:32 pm
Funny, as I read through this, I can't help but realize that those who don't like VR are dead set on the idea that it is failing and those who like it can't help but believe it is the next 3D graphics card (a multi-billion dollar industry that BTW is a "gaming peripheral" that proves Howard's comments wrong, lol).

So if you don't like it, you think it will fail as a whole, and if you do, you are convinced it will be successful.  It's like we are arguing politics here, lol.  Everyone seems to think that the rest of the world thinks just like them and can't imagine that the people who don't agree make up more than a handful of blind fools.  Since when are any of us industry analysts?  BTW, the industry analysts convinced private investors to dump millions upon millions of dollars into R&D for VR.  Software, hardware, and in every niche, nook, cranny, and alternative use they can find.  In my opinion, when companies are dumping truckloads of money with no immediate return, they are seeing something that a consumer who got sick using a cardboard VR hasn't seen.

As for PBJ's comment about the members here at BYOAC being mostly against it, what I see is a bunch of members who do their best to build cool cabs on shoestring budgets who *gasp* find that a $2k minimum investment to play in VR is too much.  Howard might have invested thousands into games over the decades, but someone like me invested thousands in ONE CAB, and for over a decade, spent upward of $700 each year just to have the latest GPU.  A person like me is the target consumer of high end VR, not someone who visits fast food joints just to scan a Coke code in hopes of making an extra $5 per week.  Not saying that being frugal isn't cool, just that if you are that kind of frugal, you probably aren't the intended consumer of VR, at least not yet. 

The thing is, at the stage VR technology is at, nobody here is wrong.  There are some serious shortcomings in the current tech.  And companies like Samsung are doing their best to cash out on it while bringing it a bad name.  I do believe that VR has a solid future, just as I believed that when the first "flat screen" plasma sets hit the showroom floor at $50k (back in the mid 90's), I believed that this was the future of televisions.  Yes, it took a decade just to get flat screens to where an average consumer would even consider buying one, and then it took another 15 years to get to where you can get a state of the art 4k UHD tv with all the bells and whistles for what I paid for a 13" color TV in 1985.  But I can't predict if VR is the next big thing, and right now, it surely is NOT.  So nobody here is wrong.     Yet.   Give it a decade, then rather than comparing a Vive to a VirtualBoy, you will be actually looking at meaningful trend data.

I will leave you with this: https://www.sixflags.com/greatamerica/attractions/drop-doom-virtual-reality (https://www.sixflags.com/greatamerica/attractions/drop-doom-virtual-reality)
Not exactly a low budget thrill ride, but certainly a way to allow VR to enhance something already great.  They aren't the only ones, augmented reality is one area where VR is making a strong impact in far more than the gaming industry.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Mike A on May 07, 2017, 07:48:40 pm
Funny. When I read through this all I see is a contest to determine who is going to write the longest post.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: yotsuya on May 07, 2017, 08:56:53 pm
Funny. When I read through this all I see is a contest to determine who is going to write the longest post.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170508/4aa6556623e8261e5ee9751a127a6a8f.jpg)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on May 07, 2017, 09:40:16 pm
That's a great question, and I actually value your input on it because you experience it and seem to be honest in your assessment and enthusiasm. But I'm going to be honest, while I'm sure it's a really cool technology, I'm just not interested investing the money and time / space into it to do it right. I spent years chasing the perfect the video card and rig to play early FPS is in the 2000s. I just got tired of that.

So honestly, I think it's cool that you enjoy it and you're willing to invest into it. That's awesome. I don't think it makes me any less of a gamer because I'm not interested in it. And I really detest anybody who insinuates otherwise.

So it's not that I have any true opposition to it. It's just... I really don't care about it.

See I can understand and appreciate this.  I think it would be one thing if people just said, "yeah, it's cool, just not for me".  But I constantly see being actively decrying the technology, calling it gimmicks, comparing it to the Wii, Kinect, etc.  And more often than not those decrying VR (specifically gaming VR) tend not to have any direct experience with it.  That part puzzles me.

But I can certainly appreciate that it won't appeal to everyone, especially at this early stage.  Barriers to entry are still high.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on May 07, 2017, 09:42:55 pm
So if you don't like it, you think it will fail as a whole, and if you do, you are convinced it will be successful.

As someone who does think VR gaming is the future, I'm a bit nervous about its current prospects.  The barriers to entry are arguably higher than a lot of prior gaming tech and it's going to take quite awhile for things to establish.  My biggest fear is that if investors get too nervous and stop funding current VR development, the VR industry could suffer a serious setback if not outright collapse.

That said, I do think comparisons to other recent modern tech (i.e. 3DTV) are highly fallacious given that consumer VR's barely been on the market for over a year.  I  suspect it will be at least another couple years before we truly know which direction it's heading in.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on May 07, 2017, 10:19:27 pm
A killer-app could emerge which can convince consumers that the tech is worth the investment.  But it does mean that without this, the tech will languish for a very long time, until the price and technical hurdles are overcome.

TBH, I think that marketing that "killer app" for VR is going to be challenging given how different VR is.  If one hasn't tried it, it's really difficult to know what will be good in VR and what won't.  I see this all the time with people that expect they can just plop on a VR headset and play Call of Duty or something.  But that's not an ideal VR experience by a long shot.

Quote
I'll also state that those who think that a high-end phone is unable to provide a "taste" of the technology, simply doesn't know what they are talking about.

It can provide a taste of 3D stereoscopic vision and headtracking, but it's still limited in my experience.  What I didn't appreciate until getting the Vive was how much room-scale and motion controllers impact the experience and immersion.  The latter accounts for a good 50% of the experience in my opinion and can be the difference between just looking at something cool versus truly feeling like you are somewhere else.

Quote
And then something else struck me:  Even with the best technology currently available, I would never be able to naturally interact with the environment with only my hands. This is another level of disconnect, which is yet to be fully addressed.

TBH, motion controllers do a pretty good job especially with the inclusion of haptics.  A lot of the time, you're usually holding physical objects in VR (well, gaming VR anyway).  So holding a controller feels very natural, especially when the visual representation in VR is mapped 1:1 with its movements. 

Quote
My conclusion on all of this is that "VR" in it's current state is not VR at all, rather a very expensive and complicated display technology, albeit an interesting one, with positional tracking and specialized controllers.

This type of comment I don't get at all.  To me, VR is something that can do enough to trick my brain into accepting whatever I am seeing or hearing as real.  And it has done that repeatedly over the past year.

In fact, one of the most dramatic examples of this was when I was playing Project CARS and racing go-karts a rainstorm.  The visuals and audio was convincing enough that I started physically feeling raindrops on my arms.  The experience had triggered a psychosomatic response.

I've also had repeated gaming experiences where I've felt physically in danger and responded accordingly (most recently in Paranormal Activity).  Never had an experience like that before getting VR.

What both impresses and admittedly scares me about this is this is only the first gen of modern consumer VR.  I can't even imagine how much more intense it will be with better resolution, higher FOV, better controllers, etc.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Mike A on May 07, 2017, 11:14:53 pm
This has gone from slightly amusing to kind of disturbing.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: mimic on May 07, 2017, 11:42:48 pm
Dudes need to chill and accept that some people like VR and some people don't care about VR.

At this point it's not about caring about VR or not, it's about people that proclaim themselves as gamers (I would think if you're on these boards, it's because of your love for games? Or is it more about nostalgia and tinkering with things?) Outright dismissing a new medium or form of gaming that even in its current, imperfect form beats ANY gaming I have done in my life, be it console, arcade or PC, without even giving it a single try! All the arguments, comparisons, stats, all those rivers of justifications and words and they have NOT EVEN TRIED IT!
This whole thread started with shponglefan expressing his enthusiasm for new medium and somewhere at some point it turned into toxic rhetorics about how it's not going to succeed (insert reason) from the "know-it-alls" WITHOUT EVEN trying the damn thing!
I have no clue if it will succeed or not, none of us do, but I am here to spread the VR gospel, because I tried it and at this very early imperfect stage, once again, it beats ANYTHING I have experienced in video gaming. 

As a matter of fact I watched today (not a game, experience as 'they' call it, so I watched not played it) "Alumette". Words cannot describe it how cool it is to be inside of the story and be able to look at it from every angle, and see inside of the closed objects additional hidden features. Sure you could zoom in with mouse and see it inside, but it just not the same.


 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on May 08, 2017, 12:02:03 am
The fact that most people haven't tried it is one of the biggest barriers to at least understanding it (regardless if one jumps on the bandwagon or not).  I can respect that there are imperfections and downsides to current gaming VR tech, but most haven't even given it a shot.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 08, 2017, 12:34:46 am
...but believe it is the next 3D graphics card (a multi-billion dollar industry that BTW is a "gaming peripheral" that proves Howard's comments wrong, lol).

High-end graphics cards are no more a "gaming peripheral" than are high-end processors.  The benefits they provide are useful for a large chunk of productivity applications as well.  I.e.  if you use your PC for more than web browsing and text-based applications, and have a junk graphics card, you'll probably notice it.

Quote
In my opinion, when companies are dumping truckloads of money with no immediate return, they are seeing something that a consumer who got sick using a cardboard VR hasn't seen.

Investors invest to make money.  It's no more complicated than that.  Whether they are doing it due to the belief that they are getting in on the ground level of the thing which will replace the stagnating technology of traditional gaming, or the hopes of quickly cashing in on industry created hype, is something we won't know until we start seeing winners and losers.


TBH, I think that marketing that "killer app" for VR is going to be challenging given how different VR is.  If one hasn't tried it, it's really difficult to know what will be good in VR and what won't.  I see this all the time with people that expect they can just plop on a VR headset and play Call of Duty or something.  But that's not an ideal VR experience by a long shot.


I agree with you, and unfortunately, I think that illustrates a major problem.  Not so much that people can't imagine something good, rather that what they imagine the tech to be (or in some cases promised), is something which it is unable to deliver.

Quote
What I didn't appreciate until getting the Vive was how much room-scale and motion controllers impact the experience and immersion.  The latter accounts for a good 50% of the experience in my opinion and can be the difference between just looking at something cool versus truly feeling like are somewhere else.

I won't discount that.  But given the cost, and by that I mean not just monetary, but complexity and space requirements, the push for those things might actually be harming the adoption rate of the technology.  Based on what I have been reading, even when given  the opportunity to try both, the uninitiated tend to be happy with the lower cost, less complex stereoscopic and head tracking offerings.  By making those individuals believe that they aren't getting the "full experience", rather than paying more and dealing with the extra requirements, they will likely just forego it altogether.     

Quote
TBH, motion controllers do a pretty good job especially with the inclusion of haptics.  A lot of the time, you're usually holding physical objects in VR (well, gaming VR anyway).  So holding a controller feels very natural, especially when the visual representation in VR is mapped 1:1 with its movements

I'm really not trying to be flippant, but always holding onto something is not really reflective of reality in most circumstances.  Sure, we currently play games in just that manner, but when part of the gameplay becomes being able to reliably perform normally mundane tasks with a motion controller (like pushing a button on a panel, picking up and placing objects, etc.) then I'm not sure it's delivering on expectations.  I'm also curious as to how much of the typical motion controller gameplay "fudging" is used, to make the player feel like they are in better control than they actually are. I'd be interested to hear if you've noticed any of this.

Quote
This type of comment I don't get at all.  To me, VR is something that can do enough to trick my brain into accepting whatever I am seeing or hearing as real.  And it has done that repeatedly over the past year.

While I am skeptical of the "feeling raindrops" thing, and would sooner write it off as your outstretched arm starting to spasm from holding onto the controllers (mosly j/k ;) ), I will say that different individuals have different thresholds for this kind of thing.  I remember sitting in a dark room two decades ago playing Half-Life, and almost jumping out of my skin a few times, without surround sound, 3D or even a very large screen and old-school graphics.  I get the same feeling from playing those types of creepy games on my projection screen. But I don't get queasy or feel the dips and drops of a VR rollercoaster.  Suspension of disbelief is something which has to be given in to, and is much more likely when one wants to believe, or already has some deep seated feelings about being in those situations, real or not.  Case in point, I don't like sharks, or the general vulnerable sensation of being in the ocean.  When I played the 3D 360 shark video, and turned my head to see  the massive great-white right in my face, my brain produced a response.  First, momentary fear, mostly because it was unexpected, and second, the sensation that the beast had physically brushed against my body as it passed.  I.e. it filled in the blanks, and that effect was with just a good cell phone and a well done video. 

It's just an opinion, but I think that if the industry didn't dive in with both feet, the whole VR thing might have been better served (and maybe it shouldn't even have been called VR).  Focusing on the highest visual quality stereoscopic HMD and good head tracking, along with games and experiences suited to those capabilities, is probably the ticket to hook most gamers.  I'd rather pay for a better visual experience, thereby more easily suspending disbelief, while also simplifying use.  But the technology to do even this, isn't yet within reach. Thus the importance of the motion controllers to add to the experience.  I just can't help but feel that it's going to be a while before the experience I'm looking for will be available, and I'm really not excited to help fund every step along the way.

This has gone from slightly amusing to kind of disturbing.

Yet you are still reading  :lol

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 08, 2017, 12:53:46 am
Dudes need to chill and accept that some people like VR and some people don't care about VR.

At this point it's not about caring about VR or not, it's about people that proclaim themselves as gamers (I would think if you're on these boards, it's because of your love for games? Or is it more about nostalgia and tinkering with things?) Outright dismissing a new medium or form of gaming that even in its current, imperfect form beats ANY gaming I have done in my life, be it console, arcade or PC, without even giving it a single try! All the arguments, comparisons, stats, all those rivers of justifications and words and they have NOT EVEN TRIED IT!
This whole thread started with shponglefan expressing his enthusiasm for new medium and somewhere at some point it turned into toxic rhetorics about how it's not going to succeed (insert reason) from the "know-it-alls" WITHOUT EVEN trying the damn thing!
I have no clue if it will succeed or not, none of us do, but I am here to spread the VR gospel, because I tried it and at this very early imperfect stage, once again, it beats ANYTHING I have experienced in video gaming. 

As a matter of fact I watched today (not a game, experience as 'they' call it, so I watched not played it) "Alumette". Words cannot describe it how cool it is to be inside of the story and be able to look at it from every angle, and see inside of the closed objects additional hidden features. Sure you could zoom in with mouse and see it inside, but it just not the same.


I've seen no-one outright "dismiss" it.  I've only see them dismiss it based on what it requires of them.  The distinction is important.

As for it being cool to look at things from every angle, I won't dispute that at all.  But tell me how cool it is the 1000th time you do it.  Hell, look at any FPS or hybrid adventure/shooter.  Gamers don't look through every drawer and closet, because most of the time, the only ones which can be opened are ones with something inside.  So if it's not glowing, or showing some difference to it's surrounding (like an obvious controller button icon) there's no point in looking.  Somehow I can't imagine that developers are going add that type of detail to every bit of scenery.  The games would never get done/cost too much to produce, or be very small/short.

But religion and gospel are tough to argue with, so you have that going for you ;)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Mike A on May 08, 2017, 01:05:24 am
I stopped reading about 4 pages ago.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: mimic on May 08, 2017, 01:13:33 am
I stopped reading about 4 pages ago.

Why waste time posting?
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Mike A on May 08, 2017, 01:19:40 am
Maybe if you write 20 more paragraphs about VR I will care about it more. See that is the whole problem. The past 100 paragraphs just haven't convinced me. I am pretty confident that if you keep explaining it over and over again I will change my mind.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: mimic on May 08, 2017, 01:38:05 am

I've seen no-one outright "dismiss" it.  I've only see them dismiss it based on what it requires of them.  The distinction is important.

As for it being cool to look at things from every angle, I won't dispute that at all.  But tell me how cool it is the 1000th time you do it.  Hell, look at any FPS or hybrid adventure/shooter.  Gamers don't look through every drawer and closet, because most of the time, the only ones which can be opened are ones with something inside.  So if it's not glowing, or showing some difference to it's surrounding (like an obvious controller button icon) there's no point in looking.  Somehow I can't imagine that developers are going add that type of detail to every bit of scenery.  The games would never get done/cost too much to produce, or be very small/short.

But religion and gospel are tough to argue with, so you have that going for you ;)

I don't know, it got very negative, very fast. First page matter of fact, and I'm gonna name names this time.

This is what shponglefan originally posted:

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I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing

« on: April 29, 2016, 10:32:09 pm »



Took delivery of an HTC Vive a couple days ago.  After playing for about 8+ hours now, I can safely say that this is the most impressive piece of technology I've ever tried.  And it's easily the single most revolutionary gaming device I've ever used.

It impossible to put into words what it feels like to be inside a video game.  Because that's exactly what it's like: you're inside the video game.  Everything I've tried in the past--stereoscopic glasses, triple monitor setups, 100 inch high def projector screens--nothing comes close to how completely immersive this is.

Case in point, I was playing a virtual mini-golf game.  I hit the ball causing it to bounce back to where I was standing.  I instinctively jumped out of the way to avoid the ball hitting me; the virtual ball that isn't even real.  My brain had been completely tricked.

The motion control in particular is exceptional.  It lends a level of intuition to gaming that I've never experienced outside of specialized controllers (i.e. driving wheels, etc).  For example, playing a zombie shooter, I found myself aiming down the pistol sight and closing one eye to aim.  In a regular video game this would require some button/mouse combo to execute.  In VR, I literally just aimed down the sights.  To not even have to think about how to do something like that is a revelation.  And the haptic feedback in the controllers add to the immersion even further.  Being able to physically feel virtual interactions is just bonkers.

The sense of scale and distance in VR is incredible.  To actually see characters and environments as life-sized... I can't even begin to describe what it's like.  In the aforementioned zombie game, both times I attempted to play it, it left me shaking in fear.  Being attacked by life-sized zombies and monsters is the most terrifying experience I've ever had in a game.  I can legitimately say this is the first time a game has made me fear for my personal safety.

The biggest drawback thus far is how exhausting this experience has been.  Playing the more action oriented games, I find myself sweating after a good half-hour or so.  I couldn't even imagine trying to do a marathon gaming session for several hours in a row.  But it's been worth it; so incredibly worth it.

I really hope this catches on; no other gaming experience comes close to this.

and instead of posts continue in pleasant: "cool", "maybe I'll check it out one day", "I don't think its for me, I don't have time/money",

very quickly it went to this:

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pbj
Virtual mini golf?  You'd have to put a gun to my head to get me to play the real thing. 

And you paid $2k for the privilege?

Whatever floats your boat.

 :dunno

But that's 'ok', it's his style, thread sniping with poo-poo, but then:

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Howard_Casto

I think you are going to have to admit that there is a lot of novelty going on there man.  You are excited about it now, but let's see how much you enjoy it in a few months time.

Really? Based on what exactly?

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I've messed with the phone adaptors because ..... well .....  they are only 20 bucks and while stuff is certainly impressive, it isn't $2000 impressive.

oki-doki. shponglefan is talking about the entire setup and 'he' "messed" with the phones!

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There's the VR experience and then there is gaming.  VR is good for experiences, but it's a crap method of gaming for the reasons I've mentioned countless times in other threads

And again, he dismissed it as "gaming" it's "crap" "experience" without actually knowing what he is talking about, citing some video of middle aged guy with 10 years experience.
I am not saying VR will survive, but y'all can't say for sure that it won't and yet you have said that it already went the 3dTVs way.


Of course no one can watch anything 1000 times, but you can play it. I watched it, I enjoyed it, I'll show it to others, and then I'll play in ADDITION to being able to also watch it if there is good content made.


I think this whole thread deserves a reboot and should just continue as follow:

"cool", "maybe I'll check it out one day", "I don't think its for me, I don't have time/money".... etc
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: mimic on May 08, 2017, 01:40:50 am
Maybe if you write 20 more paragraphs about VR I will care about it more. See that is the whole problem. The past 100 paragraphs just haven't convinced me. I am pretty confident that if you keep explaining it over and over again I will change my mind.

Ok, i'll try my 'best'. Keep on reading. You clearly belong to this group of people that clearly have nothing better to do at the moment.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 08, 2017, 02:16:53 am
I don't know, it got very negative, very fast. First page matter of fact, and I'm gonna name names this time.

Ok, pbj's gonna be pbj.  If BYOAC was a bridge, he'd be living under it.  If your VR unit had a big "N" printed on it, Howard would probably have one already :), but the points he has raised are actually valid with regard to the novelty factor.  And there's no disputing that the stereoscopic stuff can make some folks physically ill, and some can't see the effect properly at all, due to vision issues,  Obviously, they would have good reason to dismiss it outright.  But none of the above is a reason to call gamer cred (if such a thing existed or mattered) into question.  It only weakens your arguments.

I think most find it interesting, if only as a curiosity.  But I think at some point you should probably accept that not everyone is going to be as impressed with it as you seem to be.  The proof can be seen as simply as visiting ebay, where there never seems to be a shortage of folks selling their units while they can still recoup a good chunk of their investment.  I think it's safe to assume that they've tried it :). 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on May 08, 2017, 06:00:55 am
 
I'm really not trying to be flippant, but always holding onto something is not really reflective of reality in most circumstances.  Sure, we currently play games in just that manner, but when part of the gameplay becomes being able to reliably perform normally mundane tasks with a motion controller (like pushing a button on a panel, picking up and placing objects, etc.) then I'm not sure it's delivering on expectations.  I'm also curious as to how much of the typical motion controller gameplay "fudging" is used, to make the player feel like they are in better control than they actually are. I'd be interested to hear if you've noticed any of this.

I think you may be underestimating the mental power of holding a controller Randy.
Just to give an example I have been playing rush of blood with PSVR which is a lightgun type game where you hold 2 motion controllers in hand and dual wield pistols shooting evil zombie type dudes.
Now the games fun but I was sort of thinking the other day while playing how accurately it tracked my movements with the gun. I have both move controllers inside a gun attatchement which is basicly a plastic gun shell and allthough is far to light and springy triggered to be a real gun they feel right while playing.
I am pretty good with pistols (not blowing my own horn or anything, I just am) So I decided to see if I could play the game "for real" by not aiming the guns on screen but my pointing them where I wanted to shoot like you would for real.
And I was pleasantly surpised to find it was fairly accurate.
I was not hitting head shots each time not by a long way but considering I could not see "the guns" only imagining in my head where they should be I was getting pretty damn close which when you consider its tracking based on a camera and pretty light is pretty damn good and all the time I felt in control.

On a slight angle I have just pre-ordered this:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/qvf/Sony-Farpoint-PSVR/B01GVQV2FI?th=1 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/qvf/Sony-Farpoint-PSVR/B01GVQV2FI?th=1)

Looks interesting I think...



While I am skeptical of the "feeling raindrops" thing, and would sooner right it off as your outstretched arm starting to spasm from holding onto the controllers (mosly j/k ;) ), I will say that different individuals have different thresholds for this kind of thing.  I remember sitting in a dark room two decades ago playing Half-Life, and almost jumping out of my skin a few times, without surround sound, 3D or even a very large screen and old-school graphics.  I get the same feeling from playing those types of creepy games on my projection screen. But I don't get queasy or feel the dips and drops of a VR rollercoaster.  Suspension of disbelief is something which has to be given in to, and is much more likely when one wants to believe, or already has some deep seated feelings about being in those situations, real or not.  Case in point, I don't like sharks, or the general vulnerable sensation of being in the ocean.  When I played the 3D 360 shark video, and turned my head to see  the massive great-white right in my face, my brain produced a response.  First, momentary fear, mostly because it was unexpected, and second, the sensation that the beast had physically brushed against my body as it passed.  I.e. it filled in the blanks, and that effect was with just a good cell phone and a well done video. 

Cant say I have ever felt rain drops or anything like that, But I have heard of people getting these types of sensations.
I guess its similar to ghost limbs and the like where your brain fools you into feeling something that is not there.

But really Half life was an amazing game, And would be even better in VR but much like RE and other games it rellys on jump tactics and sound effects to give you that scare.

Its a hell of allow easier to scare someone though when you cant recoil away from the TV and quickly look away.
Its defo scarier when the thing is right there infront of you.

Should of seen the frantic way my Ms was shooting when a huge spider confronted her on Rush of Blood!
Also lots of bad language which i could not repeat without being banned  :lol
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ChadTower on May 08, 2017, 08:57:04 am
Dudes need to chill and accept that some people like VR and some people don't care about VR.

At this point it's not about caring about VR or not, it's about people that proclaim themselves as gamers (I would think if you're on these boards, it's because of your love for games? Or is it more about nostalgia and tinkering with things?)




Well, that idea ticked people off, if I'm honest.  Neither you nor I get to decide who is or is not a gamer.  Randy could proclaim himself King Pickle and we wouldn't have a reason to dispute it.  Who even cares?  Anyone here has been playing video games for 30+ years and has devoted a substantial part of their life to it.  It doesn't matter which segment of the market's history they prefer. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on May 08, 2017, 10:57:43 am
...but believe it is the next 3D graphics card (a multi-billion dollar industry that BTW is a "gaming peripheral" that proves Howard's comments wrong, lol).
High-end graphics cards are no more a "gaming peripheral" than are high-end processors.  The benefits they provide are useful for a large chunk of productivity applications as well.  I.e.  if you use your PC for more than web browsing and text-based applications, and have a junk graphics card, you'll probably notice it.
High end graphics card research and production is driven primarily by the gaming market, with processing and productivity applications being a nice secondary application but well behind in terms of driving revenues.  And yes, a component bought purely to gain an edge or enhance a gaming experience that is not a necessity to play the game is a peripheral.  Not all peripherals are devices you use to control games.  Today you CAN play a game with the built in graphics processing of most CPU's, or even with a low end graphics card.  You don't buy a $700 card to surf the web or to use Excel or Word.  Yet the development and sale of these cards generate hundreds of millions in revenue each year and keep a multi billion dollar industry alive.
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In my opinion, when companies are dumping truckloads of money with no immediate return, they are seeing something that a consumer who got sick using a cardboard VR hasn't seen.
Investors invest to make money.  It's no more complicated than that.  Whether they are doing it due to the belief that they are getting in on the ground level of the thing which will replace the stagnating technology of traditional gaming, or the hopes of quickly cashing in on industry created hype, is something we won't know until we start seeing winners and losers.
The key being that they are investing to make money.  If VR is already dead like half the people in this thread are 100% sure of, then those investors are wasting their money.  They aren't just dipping their toes in it, they are going in big, hundreds of millions is being thrown at developers, and the companies that started at the ground floor already got bought for big money by big incubator companies.

At the absolute very least, VR technology will evolve into something even greater and will become a part of daily life at some point.  Obviously not in its current form, and it will probably take a couple decades to go totally mainstream, but the concept has been sought after for too long for this to just fizzle out. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RayB on May 08, 2017, 02:00:04 pm
Obviously not in its current form, and it will probably take a couple decades to go totally mainstream, but the concept has been sought after for too long for this to just fizzle out.
5 to 10 years.
And people citing cost are forgetting that an HD TV used to cost over $10,000 when they first came out.

In 5 to 10 years, all you'll need to power VR is the computer in your pocket and a light-weight headset. Even the motion sickness issue has been solved (just not applied into a consumer product yet).
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on May 08, 2017, 04:57:17 pm
Obviously not in its current form, and it will probably take a couple decades to go totally mainstream, but the concept has been sought after for too long for this to just fizzle out.
5 to 10 years.
And people citing cost are forgetting that an HD TV used to cost over $10,000 when they first came out.
That's what I was saying in my longer post above... The first plasma's hit the showroom floor at $50,000 for something like a 50" flat screen TV.  You can get a superior set today that is thinner by 20x, weighs 10x less, has a higher pixel resolution, doesn't burn in, and doesn't require a separate box for power and processing, all for around $2500 in the equivalent size, and something with a slightly inferior picture for as little as $350.  That's after 20ish years. 

Few consumer technologies have gotten this much R&D money thrown at them like VR is getting.  Early adopters always pay a premium and it always takes years before mainstream consumer pricing and high performance meet.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 08, 2017, 10:38:46 pm
High end graphics card research and production is driven primarily by the gaming market, with processing and productivity applications being a nice secondary application but well behind in terms of driving revenues.  And yes, a component bought purely to gain an edge or enhance a gaming experience that is not a necessity to play the game is a peripheral.  Not all peripherals are devices you use to control games.  Today you CAN play a game with the built in graphics processing of most CPU's, or even with a low end graphics card.  You don't buy a $700 card to surf the web or to use Excel or Word.  Yet the development and sale of these cards generate hundreds of millions in revenue each year and keep a multi billion dollar industry alive.

We're going to have to go back a long way for this one, but the very first desktop machines were dumb terminals, made smart by the inclusion of on-board processing.  So in the sense of a desktop "terminal", the cpu is a peripheral item to the display ;).

I won't gamble on that argument.  But I will present this excerpt from a report published a few years ago (https://jonpeddie.com/download/media/slides/Performance_PC_Gaming_HW_Report_2H14_TOC.pdf) (emphasis mine):

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Enthusiast segment
Compared to the overall PC market, the Enthusiast segment accounts for only a relatively small number of unit shipments. However, those systems are among the most expensive and deliver very healthy margins. Enthusiast-class AIBs deliver the highest possible performance and offer the enthusiast or hobbyist the ability to tweak the AIB (e.g. with special cooling and clock manipulation) to exceed the published specifications.  Enthusiasts pay very little attention to price tags. If the PC or AIB promises the best gaming experience they will be bought, and MSRPs in the category aren’t declining. In fact, recent topend PCs and AIBs on the market have been gaining in price. In our analysis we use Enthusiast AIB’s as the cornerstone but also account for Enthusiast systems as a pricing segment with averages of $2,232 for desktops and $2,067 for notebooks. The minimum ASP to be included in the Enthusiast class is $1800 and this includes a display factor adjusted for gaming motivation and purchasing frequency. The Enthusiast segment is also referred to as the Extreme segment by some suppliers.

Performance segment
The Performance computer segment isn’t so clear-cut. Some like JPR treat it separately from the higher end Enthusiast category, and others include the Enthusiast category within the Performance segment.
There is overlap between the two, but one of the major points of distinction is that performance machines are sold into the broader markets, advertised as machines for entertainment or high-end professional use. In addition, they are equipped with newer, high-performance graphics chips, but typically not the most powerful. Often, the performance sector AIBs are the previous generation’s Enthusiast AIB, but they are also built up on lower-cost GPU derivatives of the current top-end GPU part. In our analysis we use Performance AIB’s as the cornerstone but also account for Performance systems as a pricing segment with averages of $1,349 for desktops and $1,244 for notebooks. The minimum ASP to be included in the Performance class is $1000 and this includes a display factor adjusted for gaming motivation and purchasing frequency.

Mainstream segment
The mainstream category is the largest unit volume and the lowest performance segment. The AIBs used in these systems can be either specially designed (to reduce cost), older generation models, or special versions with GPUs that are higher end but have not passed all the tests to be in the higher classifications (this is one way GPU suppliers manage fab yields and inventory costs.) Mainstream systems and AIBs offer solid capabilities for Internet, gaming, and office productivity applications. We include Value PC’s and GPU’s in the Mainstream segment.  Regardless of their budget people of all economic levels love video games and they serve to influence PC purchases even at the lowest level.  In our analysis we use Mainstream and Value AIB’s as the cornerstone but also account for Mainstream systems as a pricing segment with averages of $775 for desktops and $579 for notebooks. The maximum ASP to be included in the Mainstream class is $1000 and this includes a display factor adjusted for gaming motivation and purchasing frequency. The Mainstream segment is also referred to as Entry Level or Value segment by some suppliers.

High-end gaming doesn't drive the graphics card industry, competition does.  If they rest on their laurels, other players will develop higher spec parts, and those will be selected for Performance machines, which account for more sales.  Eventually, those designs end up in the even more competitive Mainstream market segment, which is where companies make their real bread and butter.  What the Enthusiast crowd does is pay dearly for the R&D, as it is bleeding edge technology, thereby diffusing costs which in the past, were borne solely by the Performance market ($15,000 graphics card anyone?.)  Gamers are also usually the "guinea pigs", often dealing with less than perfect drivers, something the professional market is unwilling to do. 

Even if I were willing to accept that a graphics card is a "gaming peripheral" (which I am reluctant to do), at which point is it no longer such?  I purchased my first 3D graphics card decades ago, at a time when you still needed an additional normal card for everything but 3D.  At that time, very few professional applications even supported it's use, as they used much higher end and much more costly solutions.  Now, my phone has about 10x the power of that card, as does the chipset found on most modern motherboards, and graphics cards are complete solutions which work across the gamut of applications.

You don't pay $700 to do word processing and surf the web, but at one point, the technology you are using now to do those things, commanded that much.  And productivity users pay that and much more, as increased performance equates to increased efficiency and revenue.

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The key being that they are investing to make money.  If VR is already dead like half the people in this thread are 100% sure of, then those investors are wasting their money.  They aren't just dipping their toes in it, they are going in big, hundreds of millions is being thrown at developers, and the companies that started at the ground floor already got bought for big money by big incubator companies.

At the absolute very least, VR technology will evolve into something even greater and will become a part of daily life at some point.  Obviously not in its current form, and it will probably take a couple decades to go totally mainstream, but the concept has been sought after for too long for this to just fizzle out.

Again, that means nothing when uptake depends entirely on the consumer's willingness to play along.  It's estimated that 45% of companies fail and disappear within the first 5 years, with some data showing that number to be much higher.  When a company starts losing money, the venture capitalists bail, and either sell it off or liquidate it to recover any remaining value.  It's just part of the investment game.  That's why you can put your personal investments in low, medium or high risk pools.  The higher the risk, the higher the possible return...but you could go broke.

People making comparisons to the TV market should stop and consider that TV was a looooong established product.  These flatter and larger screens were a natural evolution in an existing market.  Manufacturers knew they would fly off the shelves when the price and quality met market demand, and no expense was spared in getting there.  The VR market, on the other hand, is a completely new bird.  But one thing they did learn is that the average consumer wouldn't even put up with wearing lightweight glasses to watch their TV in 3D.  How is that going to affect mass adoption of VR, which is what will be required for all of these improvements to be made?
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Mike A on May 08, 2017, 11:14:00 pm
I am pretty sure there isn't actually an award for the longest post.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RayB on May 09, 2017, 10:12:35 am
The VR market, on the other hand, is a completely new bird.  But one thing they did learn is that the average consumer wouldn't even put up with wearing lightweight glasses to watch their TV in 3D.  How is that going to affect mass adoption of VR, which is what will be required for all of these improvements to be made?
I know I've jumped into this thread late but ... whatever, my 2 cents : You have to consider incremental improvements versus paradigm-changing improvements. For example, a portable "PDA" with slightly better screen res than the previous offerings and still requiring a stylus for input VS a multi-touch capacitive screen that not only accurately detects a finger tough, but multiple of them (along with the paradigm changing user interactivity that enabled). Minor incremental improvments VS paradigm-shifting.

Other examples in the past:

So back to 3DTV: If a large majority of people aren't willing to go for the incremental difference of Bluray over DVD, then they sure as hell won't go for the minor improvement of "3D". And "3D" wasn't a new concept. Why was it pushed? Because companies WANT us continually upgrading. There comes a point though where the changes/improvements are too minor to care about (Apple is stuck in this stage with their phones).

VR though? This isn't incremental. It's going to be a new paradigm for gaming as well as open entire new categories of entertainment and "experiences".
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on May 09, 2017, 10:41:20 am
I am pretty sure there isn't actually an award for the longest post.
Let me help you and the other ADHD members here:
www.twitter.com (http://www.twitter.com)

There, go there and stick to your 140 character posts.  This is a forum, a place to discuss ideas, and any idea worth discussing takes more than a couple words unless you are in the second grade.  Why in God's name anyone would come to a forum (an off topic forum to boot) and complain that there are too many words to read is beyond me.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Mike A on May 09, 2017, 10:42:25 am
 :'(
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on May 09, 2017, 11:48:18 am
High-end gaming doesn't drive the graphics card industry, competition does. 
Yet without PC gaming, there would be no demand for it and other productivity applications would still be using $10,000 fireGL cards.  The demand is what drives sales, the competition is what drives the price down and the technology up.  Take away the demand and the competition goes away and the price starts to go back up and the tech flattens out and stops evolving.  Everyone here would pay dearly for a "Star Trek Holodeck" type experience, or pay a reasonable amount for something close to it, and as long as that demand is there, there will be R&D and competition driving the cost down and the technology up to meet what consumers want.  Obviously it isn't there yet, but give it time, it will be.
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What the Enthusiast crowd does is pay dearly for the R&D, as it is bleeding edge technology
Exactly, and that is what the Vive and Rift are.. bleeding edge technology that is designed for the enthusiast market.  Nobody is expecting to make money off this right now, they are just trying to fund further R&D.  Why else would hundreds of millions of dollars of private equity be invested in a product that hasn't cracked more than a few dozen million in sales?

I looked into possibly upgrading the Vive with DIY fixes, like better displays, better lenses, etc.  There isn't anything because what the Vive has is already utilizing the fastest display processing chips that are made.  There is no upgrade path right now because it is so bleeding edge that anything that comes out from here forward still has to be invented.  The money is going into content, video compression, solutions for motion sickness, and of course into better displays, better optics, and faster processors.  There is a reason the best experience relies on the most expensive graphics cards, and even in those cases it is insufficient.  I upgraded my 980Ti to a 1080 just to get that extra 10-12% of performance, and I was tempted to upgrade to a 1080Ti recently when it came out.  Even so, I wish we could go to SLI so I could process even higher resolutions as supersampling improves the quality of the experience.  Until you can process 90+ fps at 4k resolutions (2k x 2) with a single card, the rest of the tech is not even going to help, and we aren't there yet.  Ideally we want to hit 120fps at over 4k resolutions with a device that fits in a smartphone chassis so we can have completely wireless solutions that are light and affordable, but we are a long way from that.  It is coming though, not only because VR will need it, but because there is a race in allied industries to create higher density displays and the peripherals and media that support it.  No sense in having an 8k tv if you can't deliver content to it without an SSD hard drive.  So 48Gbps HDMI cables are coming, as are chips that can transmit that much data.  Trust me, if I could buy a 4k x2 headset with high quality glass lenses (preferably in my prescription), I would even if it cost several thousand dollars.  I can't because it can't be done with current technology.  There is hope in the near future though, with compression to deliver the video through slower chips or even over wifi, higher density displays that are now available, and a better understanding of optics and other factors following thousands of units in consumers hands, the next generation of headset could be a revolutionary jump.  And that is just the beginning.  Wait until the R&D starts bearing fruit.
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Again, that means nothing when uptake depends entirely on the consumer's willingness to play along.  It's estimated that 45% of companies fail and disappear within the first 5 years, with some data showing that number to be much higher.  When a company starts losing money, the venture capitalists bail, and either sell it off or liquidate it to recover any remaining value.  It's just part of the investment game.  That's why you can put your personal investments in low, medium or high risk pools.  The higher the risk, the higher the possible return...but you could go broke.
90/10 rule, 90 percent of businesses fail in the first 5 years and only 10% survive that long.  But that's splitting hairs, the point isn't that businesses fail, it is that when incubators are investing heavily in a technology and then private equity jumps on board with hundreds of millions of dollars to throw around at anything having to do with the technology, it is because they have done their research.  This isn't Vegas, and people with that kind of money aren't gambling on the roll of the dice.  My specific point is that a bunch of arcade enthusiasts who are unwilling to drop more than a few hundred on building a cabinet are not the ones those investors are relying on for their market analysis.  If I were going to invest my money, I would be looking to do what the big boys are doing, not the ones who have little to nothing to invest. 

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People making comparisons to the TV market should stop and consider that TV was a looooong established product.  These flatter and larger screens were a natural evolution in an existing market.  Manufacturers knew they would fly off the shelves when the price and quality met market demand, and no expense was spared in getting there.  The VR market, on the other hand, is a completely new bird.  But one thing they did learn is that the average consumer wouldn't even put up with wearing lightweight glasses to watch their TV in 3D.  How is that going to affect mass adoption of VR, which is what will be required for all of these improvements to be made?
But it isn't completely new.  First off, it has been around as a concept that people have shown intense desire to have for decades.  Second, it is a natural evolution of a monitor.  This isn't watching TV in 3D with a pair of shutter glasses, this is the most realistic 3D effect outside of true reality and you don't have to wear glasses to look at something, the glasses ARE the display.  When the technology evolves to an ultralight pair of glasses, and it will given some time, this will replace TV's, movie projectors, computer monitors, and everything else that displays output.  Everything that has come before this point in terms of visual media devices could potentially be replaced with a VR headset.  Nothing in the past has had this big of an establishment.  It is merely a question of getting the tech to a price point and comfort level where consumers will adopt it.  No small task, but anything can be accomplished with enough money.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 09, 2017, 12:15:50 pm
So back to 3DTV: If a large majority of people aren't willing to go for the incremental difference of Bluray over DVD, then they sure as hell won't go for the minor improvement of "3D". And "3D" wasn't a new concept. Why was it pushed? Because companies WANT us continually upgrading. There comes a point though where the changes/improvements are too minor to care about (Apple is stuck in this stage with their phones).

VR though? This isn't incremental. It's going to be a new paradigm for gaming as well as open entire new categories of entertainment and "experiences".

Let's also not forget that the Wii soured the mass market (and the Kinect did to some extent as well).  There was an incredible amount of hype around these technologies as well, and while they did deliver some new and fun experiences, it was ultimately their limitations which gave them novelty status in the grand scheme of gaming. 

The other technologies supplanted previous ones in those genres, because they could do everything the old one did, and do it better.  In the case of cassettes VS CD VS digital media, each was a monumental step in convenience, quality and durability.  And eventually, cost.

BluRay VS DVD is a bit of a different situation, and may actually be relevant to the VR dilemma.  BluRay, at it's introduction, was aimed at the high-end enthusiasts.  Folks with the biggest screens, and full audiophile surround setups, who could afford a $400 BD player.  This was a time when those big screens and amplifiers could easily set one back 4 to 5k.  The technology has now caught up to BluRay, and DVDs look like crap on those $400 55" TV's and $50 BD players you can walk into any Wal-mart and purchase.  It's still one of the few ways to take advantage of real 1080P quality.  If DVD's continue to exist at this point, it's for smaller/portable devices, and the industry is looking to kill that application off with digital.  And we haven't even touched on what it's going to take to get people to 4k.

And that's kind of where VR sits currently, except that it doesn't supplant traditional video gaming, and if it tried, the experience would be worse.  It's also not really new.  Like 3DTV, technology has advanced enough to get us much closer to realizing the potential, but also like 3D, technology hasn't advanced far enough to do it extremely well.  At some point in the future, all of our TV's might be 16k with with glasses-free 3D and wide fields of view, and we might never play a game on it.  But given how long it has taken just to get to this point, from previous iterations of both technologies, it could quite conceivably be another decade before we see another run at it.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 09, 2017, 12:53:27 pm
High-end gaming doesn't drive the graphics card industry, competition does. 
Yet without PC gaming, there would be no demand for it and other productivity applications would still be using $10,000 fireGL cards

There was, is, and always will be a demand for the high end graphics cards.  Long before mainstream gaming, business and military paid for all of that R&D, from which mainstream consumers eventually received benefits.  If the gaming market evaporated, those new designs would still exist, and the professional market would pay those high costs, just as they always did in the past.  They are a business investment and have a return for those entities.  A far different impetus than that of gamers.

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Nobody is expecting to make money off this right now, they are just trying to fund further R&D.  Why else would hundreds of millions of dollars of private equity be invested in a product that hasn't cracked more than a few dozen million in sales?

That's a bit over-generalized.  Samsung is doing it to help sell phones (profit).  Zuckerberg wants in on the ground floor of the VR software repository (profit). And then there is the military, who have already stated that current VR technology is pushing up against what they use, which costs much more.  Instant customer with deep pockets and an actual application (profit).  There are many motivations for dumping money into something, and it's usually with some shorter term goal in mind, with perhaps a reduced but possible chance of an outcome of much more.  There were sales projections and all of them fell far short of expectations.  I'm sure these were considered.

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There is no upgrade path right now because it is so bleeding edge that anything that comes out from here forward still has to be invented.

That's the "chicken and egg" dilemma which could be it's downfall.

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If I were going to invest my money, I would be looking to do what the big boys are doing, not the ones who have little to nothing to invest.

If the 90/10 rule is accurate, the "big boys" tend to get it wrong....a lot.  I'd be looking at how much of their own money they are risking, as opposed to that of others.  In the grand scheme of things, however, 100 million to them is like $100 to one of us.  If the entire industry is dropping a billion, cumulatively that's a drop in the bucket.

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...but anything can be accomplished with enough money.

No, it can't.  It can get farther, faster, but it's never a guarantee something will make it to the finish line.  Pesky things like physics, the "human element", etc. tend to get in the way.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on May 09, 2017, 12:57:04 pm
(http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=149895.0;attach=358676)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pixel on May 09, 2017, 02:12:08 pm
I barely have time to post these days,  let alone read all of this...

 All Im going to say is:

1)  If people did not want / like  3D,   Imax 3D  would long since been dead.   Instead,  I just came from the new Guradians of the Galaxy in Imax 3d,  and every seat was sold out.

2)  If dual stereoscopic cameras with a 3d display were part of the big name mobile phone mfg.s ,   Stereoscopic support would soar through the roof.


 Even VR would have a heavier impact,  with 3d photos being viewable on them.   Though,  as stated... the price,   and requirements,  are still way too high.

 What they Should have done,  was left the tech at a mid-grade level,   rather than aiming for the top-tier experience.   
 Especially since the top-tier they came up with,  is stiff extremely lackluster...  AND  has an the  "rich-kid"   pricetag.

 The mobile phones acting as the low to mid grade as a vr offering,  is just not good enough.    Partially due to lack of processing power,  but more so,  due to poor lack
of controller support across the board.   Not to mention,  that many whom have phone,  may have older models that have limited compatibility.   But either way,  without
good solid unified non-laggy controller support... you can pretty much write VR off on the phone market.

 In fact, poor controller support,  will probably cause the whole phone-game ecosystem to eventually implode.


I am pretty sure there isn't actually an award for the longest post.
Let me help you and the other ADHD members here:
www.twitter.com (http://www.twitter.com)

There, go there and stick to your 140 character posts.  This is a forum, a place to discuss ideas, and any idea worth discussing takes more than a couple words unless you are in the second grade.  Why in God's name anyone would come to a forum (an off topic forum to boot) and complain that there are too many words to read is beyond me.

 I agree.   Got a good chuckle out of it too.   I was always blown away by the few posters whom constantly tried to attack me over post length.  It was pure insanity.


 If I may offer a suggestion:   Fidget spinners / Fidget cubes.    Supposedly, they are all the rage now,  for ADHD sufferers.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Mike A on May 09, 2017, 02:57:01 pm
Now you guys did it. You woke Pixel up. Strap on your tinfoil helmet. The ride is about to get bumpy.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Howard_Casto on May 09, 2017, 03:42:42 pm
Heh... I love how paying 2 extra bucks for your ticket to an imax movie is compared to buying hundreds of dollars of equipment for a home setup.  People absolutely want 3D as a novelty in public forums, I already expressed that if he would bother to read the posts, but that isn't the same as wanting to invest the time, money and effort into  doing a home setup.  Hell even now that 3d tvs cost basically the same as a regular tv, nobody is buying them... thus the lackluster 3d tv sales. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: yotsuya on May 09, 2017, 07:50:53 pm
I'm  just glad to see Xiaou2 is still alive. Truly.

Someone at work gave me this today. I should have probably punched her in the face and screamed "J'accuse!" at her, huh?

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170509/86da0f3981414b09bd6ac6dbac2284dc.jpg)
Title: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: jtslade on May 09, 2017, 08:41:03 pm
Old school classics and new school VR. Fun video games is what it's all about.

Let's be cool and play some games.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170510/003ddd048a80a306d0c62038064d63af.jpg)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on May 09, 2017, 09:16:01 pm
What they Should have done,  was left the tech at a mid-grade level,   rather than aiming for the top-tier experience.

The challenge with that is there is a minimum threshold to have an acceptable experience.  This is why the current headsets (Vive/Rift) target 90 FPS, 1080x1200 resolution (per eye), sub 20ms latency...

At any rate, it's early adopter tech so in time we should see both improvements to the existing technology and cutting of costs as economies of scale are realized.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on May 09, 2017, 09:42:37 pm
I won't discount that.  But given the cost, and by that I mean not just monetary, but complexity and space requirements, the push for those things might actually be harming the adoption rate of the technology.  Based on what I have been reading, even when given  the opportunity to try both, the uninitiated tend to be happy with the lower cost, less complex stereoscopic and head tracking offerings.  By making those individuals believe that they aren't getting the "full experience", rather than paying more and dealing with the extra requirements, they will likely just forego it altogether.

Oh, I agree.  It's an unfortunate paradox: to really have the best experience also has some of the highest barriers to entry just by virtue of physical space.  Eventually this could be solved by self-contained, wireless systems that don't require dedicated spaces.  But we're aways away from that yet.

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I'm really not trying to be flippant, but always holding onto something is not really reflective of reality in most circumstances.  Sure, we currently play games in just that manner, but when part of the gameplay becomes being able to reliably perform normally mundane tasks with a motion controller (like pushing a button on a panel, picking up and placing objects, etc.) then I'm not sure it's delivering on expectations.  I'm also curious as to how much of the typical motion controller gameplay "fudging" is used, to make the player feel like they are in better control than they actually are. I'd be interested to hear if you've noticed any of this.

The Vive controllers are somewhat large so a lot of game design tends to cater towards that; for example, making things like levers or buttons or whatever a bit over-sized compared to what they might be in real life.  When there are issues, I find it tends to be more a problem of in-game physics than the controllers themselves.  There are games with really good interactivity and physics, so I know what the controllers are capable of.

And in most cases using motion controllers in place of hands is quite natural.  If you think about it, we use hand-held tools for manipulating objects all the time.  Just think about every time you eat a meal, for example.  We don't stop and think about whether it's natural to use a fork or spoon; we just do.

The times where I do find there is a disconnect is when I'm holding an object that blatantly doesn't line up with real life.  For example, in Vanishing Realms you use a sword, but because of how light the controllers are, it feels like you're holding a foam sword.  This could be compensated in real-life with attachments; and indeed some people have been coming up with things to better simulate VR objects.  I suspect that in time we'll see an evolution of motion controllers for VR and we likely won't be limited to a single controller type.  Sort of like how we now use driving wheels versus joysticks versus flightsticks, etc.

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Case in point, I don't like sharks, or the general vulnerable sensation of being in the ocean.  When I played the 3D 360 shark video, and turned my head to see  the massive great-white right in my face, my brain produced a response.  First, momentary fear, mostly because it was unexpected, and second, the sensation that the beast had physically brushed against my body as it passed.  I.e. it filled in the blanks, and that effect was with just a good cell phone and a well done video. 

If that's the level of experience you had just from a 360 video, then you really ought to try a proper VR setup one of these days. ;)

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Focusing on the highest visual quality stereoscopic HMD and good head tracking, along with games and experiences suited to those capabilities, is probably the ticket to hook most gamers.  I'd rather pay for a better visual experience, thereby more easily suspending disbelief, while also simplifying use.  But the technology to do even this, isn't yet within reach. Thus the importance of the motion controllers to add to the experience.  I just can't help but feel that it's going to be a while before the experience I'm looking for will be available, and I'm really not excited to help fund every step along the way.

Oculus initially took the seated w/ HMD approach, until the Vive blew expectations out of the water.  As I said, room-scale and motion controllers add considerably to the experience; wlking around and physically interacting with a virtual world improves the experience moreso than simply improving visuals.

Eventually we'll have the best of both, but for visuals it will take some time for graphics processing power and better screens to become more affordable.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Samson on May 09, 2017, 10:28:53 pm

I'll also state that those who think that a high-end phone is unable to provide a "taste" of the technology, simply doesn't know what they are talking about.  My phone has virtually every possible sensor, a high-quality 5.7" IPS screen with resolution that is 1.75 times that of the PSVR.   With good apps, the head movement tracking is fast and feels very natural.  What it can't provide, is movement within 3D space, which is the sketchiest part of being visually isolated from real-world objects.  It also can't provide user interaction without a Bluetooth controller (which I have).  I played with it some more last night.  One app stood out for me, and that was a ride in a flying car over a "BladeRunner-esque" cityscape.  The effect of looking out the windows at objects as they passed by, and seeing the driver and car internals in convincing 3D was definitely cool.  I almost expected to see my hands in view as I stretched them out in front of me.  And then something else struck me:  Even with the best technology currently available, I would never be able to naturally interact with the environment with only my hands. This is another level of disconnect, which is yet to be fully addressed.  Even with the best of what is available, the user is no more inside the virtual world, than a laparoscopic surgeon is inside a patient's chest cavity.  While better controllers than the PSMOVE are available, they are still controllers, and still motion controllers.  Motion controllers lack the precision of analog switches and levers, but those lack the freedom of movement and interaction.  The result is a mash-up of the two, which does not in any way mimic a human's natural interaction with a physical world.


Not to get into any other points of why VR will or won't succeed, but there are some real reasons why phones currently can't provide a 'taste' of what VR is really like. 

There's been a lot of research (  look at NASA as well as Valve ) into what it takes to make someones visual system think it's in a valid space at a subconscious level.  For 95% of people, the image needs to be updated at a minimum of 90hz,  you need  motion to photon ( the time from when you move your head to when an updated image hits your eye ) latency of <20ms, and you need positional  motion tracking with about mm resolution.  Resolution is less important than positional tracking and latency for actual immersion. 
  Your phone display doesn't run at 90hz, lacks positional tracking completely, and doesn't have IMUs fast or accurate enough to provide adequate rotational tracking - even if the phones refresh rate were 90hz.  The best mobile platform, the gearvr, includes additional IMUs to help with IMU accuracy and sample rate, but you're still limited by screen refresh rate and latency.  If your 'VR' experience is standing at the edge of the grand canyon, hitting these minimum targets is the difference between feeling like you're using a fancy 3d viewmaster to view a scene, and your subconscious believing you're someplace else one step away from plummeting and kicking in your fight or flight response. ( Even when you consciously know you're safely in front of your PC ).  The difference is pretty dramatic.   Bad analogy - you can only 'taste' that kind of experience with a phone in the same way you can 'see' a color you've never seen by having someone describe it.

In regards to motion controllers, you're right, you can't do everything you can with your actual hands - but this can be addressed surprisingly well by limiting the experience itself.  If you're character is always supposed to have a gun or flashlight or tool in his hand, and you're always holding a controller, it feels right. Consistency works pretty well.   And although you can't get the tactile feel of flipping an actual toggle switch, you can naturally and believably interact with 'holographic' touch screen guis with fingertip ( finger singular ) precision. 

tl;dr with a phone you'll see it, but not 'believe' it.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pixel on May 10, 2017, 10:26:32 am
Heh... I love how paying 2 extra bucks for your ticket to an imax movie is compared to buying hundreds of dollars of equipment for a home setup.  People absolutely want 3D as a novelty in public forums, I already expressed that if he would bother to read the posts, but that isn't the same as wanting to invest the time, money and effort into  doing a home setup.  Hell even now that 3d tvs cost basically the same as a regular tv, nobody is buying them... thus the lackluster 3d tv sales.

 Sorry,  but Ive seen so many posts about how people hate glasses / 3d...  as well as how 3d movies are garbage...etc...  that it boggles the mind.   Everywhere you go, theres always some loud mouth,  that had to trash something that they are not enamored with...  and they try to project their own feelings and assumptions onto pretty much everyone else.

 Ive already stated,  just as you,  that cost is a huge problem with VR.   That cost would have stayed low,  had the rift chose to stay at a reachable early prototype level.  Something that peoples current gen PCs could have been fine with,  so that the investment was only a mere $200 at most for the ride.   In fact,  it was doing very well,  and gaining in sales and popularity... at those early stages.

 Its when they decided to push to the higher end... that they lost the core  'poor'   mass audience.    Its one thing to have or get a spare $200... and quite another,  to fork over $1000+  for a new PC, video card,  accessories...  and to end up with a very expensive hunk of hardware... that has very little offering in software,  and those games which it does have... are still very far from the goal of what people expect...  especially for that price point.


 As for your quip on 3dtv sales... I do not think you can easily get hold of a 3dtv that does both 4k and 3d today.   And thats the issues... (along with the horrible idea to have multiple incompatible glasses / hardware standards).     People would love the 3d on their large flatscreens... but to give up on 4k?   A cheap +45"  4k  tv at walmart is like 700 or less now,  I think.   3d incorporation, would have been fairly easy for these tvs... even if it was kept at the lower resolution / framerate.   But, the companies chose a few more dollars in profit,  rather than keep the 3d tech.

 It does not help,  that the content,  just is not available for 3d,  and what little is available,  is WAY too overpriced.  (Bad enough that many bluray / dvd released are still crazy expensive... and most will just wait till they hit the $10 marker to buy them.   And thats a fair price point... considering many films are pretty pathetic,  and are not worthy of much beyond a few watches,  let alone must-haves).

 Initially the LCD glasses were like 100$ a pop... and that did not help a family of like 4... whom wanted to watch a movie together.   The competition drive down the price to a mere $40 a pair... and so that became less of an issue too.  (the problem then,  was a mindfeild of incompatible / different standards to try to figure out)

 

 All of this leads to data that figureheads try to interpret as "people dont want 3dtv".    Or   "People dont want to wear the glasses".   Both of which are not really true, for the majority of the masses.   The reason is content lackings,  price point on that content,  as well as some of these having very poor standards of quality.

 Fix all of that,  and 3dtv,  ..  would easily start to gain mass acceptance and greater sales.


 And as for PC 3d,  many have tried,  but,  its always been a standards issue.   Dedicated lock into a hardware vendors video card and special drivers... that the companies do not keep updated / active / functional.    Drop the price to like $75,  (not 150+)   drop the dedicated hardware vendor crap,   and get Microsoft to actually play-ball with their OS...  and Bam... you will get Millions of 3d users,  enjoying and creating 3d content on their PCs.    And M$,  should already have been working on / implementing a 3d desktop / windows environment.  Even if its simply floating icons, windows.    Let alone,  3d Painting programs, (get with it already  Adobe / Corel ..etc)

 But hey,  at Least we FINALLY are starting to get more color depth support.  As as artist, its been sickening,  to see how my art and photos,  are butchered when working with a PC and a typical PC monitor.  (let alone the Poor drawing interface options)


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Not to get into any other points of why VR will or won't succeed, but there are some real reasons why phones currently can't provide a 'taste' of what VR is really like.

 Well, IMO,  3d is 3d.   If it is done well,  you do get a taste.   Certainly not anything like the real deal,  at a high level.  But it does provide some interesting and fun experiences.   And really, at the end of the day,  thats what people want.   An interesting and fun experience,  that does not break the bank.   Not everyone has a boatload of expendable cash.


 A few of the games Ive played,  were poor..  and some were quite cool.  Problem for me,  has always been the lack of a controller,  and or lack of much interaction at all.
Not to mention,  my phone heating up to  auto-reboot   point.   heh


 Worst discovery for me,  re-mobile processing power,  was getting a Galaxy Note 2 some years ago,  thinking I could use it for art at times... and finding out that mobile drawing apps are cut down and crippled so badly,  that it makes using these programs painfully impossible to deal with.  I found an ancient fujitsu laptop with xp and a wacom digitizer built in,  and called it a day.


 IMO,  the biggest problem I have with every argument high-end VR made today ... is the use of a tall aspect ratio,  in a  'high end'  device.    If anything is going to ruin your VR experience... to me... it would be that feeling that you were wearing blinders on.   Looking through binoculars... rather than seeing a wide expanse.   It also ruins the whole nature of the game format,  that it is supposed to help Fix...  3d fps.   In most FPS games,  they cant have many enemies attack from behind... due to limited field of vision,  and lack of quick turn controlling mechanisms.   Free that up, and one should be able to do a Robotron like 3d game.  However,   that cant really be done,   in a narrow feild of view...  if at all on current hardware,  due to speed of interactions,  and lack of 3d positional tracking accuracy.


IMO
 Phones will gather and keep some interest...  but nothing huge.
VR will eventually take hold... but,  not till its around or under $200 price point in total.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on May 10, 2017, 11:32:32 am
When exactly did he transition from joysticks to VR? 

If I recall correctly, wasn't he homeless and living out of a van, and then fired from his job for sneaking in after-hours to shower and sleep?

How did we go from that to dropping $3,000 on a VR setup and criticizing those that don't?


Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Samson on May 10, 2017, 12:27:21 pm

 Well, IMO,  3d is 3d.   If it is done well,  you do get a taste.   Certainly not anything like the real deal,  at a high level.  But it does provide some interesting and fun experiences.   And really, at the end of the day,  thats what people want.   An interesting and fun experience,  that does not break the bank.   Not everyone has a boatload of expendable cash.

Well, that was half of my point. 3d is 3d, but 3d isn't VR - it's just one component. 

A magiceye autostereogram != stereoscope image != IMAX3D != 360deg 3d != VR.

You can have some cool 3d experiences on current smartphones - but its just well done 3d.  You're looking at a 3d space,  but it's nothing at all like when your subconscious consistently believes it's a real space. ( And even the high end hardware available today can't do this for everyone. )


 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 10, 2017, 12:36:33 pm
. . . and doesn't have IMUs fast or accurate enough to provide adequate rotational tracking - even if the phones refresh rate were 90hz.  The best mobile platform, the gearvr, includes additional IMUs to help with IMU accuracy and sample rate, but you're still limited by screen refresh rate and latency.

I won't dispute that there isn't enough horsepower in a phone to drive a 1440p display at 90hz.  But you can perform head movements slower to reduce the negative effects.  As for it not having adequate tracking, I think you should do a bit of research on the Snapdragon 820.  IIRC, there is some pipeline technology built in to reduces IMU sensor latency to the 2ms range, and supposedly with Nougat and Googles VR service, it can run on par with the Gear, without additional IMU's.  I say supposedly, because my phone does not yet have Daydream support.  But even without it, I do not find the head tracking to be lacking at all.  It feels very fast and accurate.

Regardless, it's plenty to demonstrate what VR is, and it's a very short leap to imagine what the higher cost units would (hopefully) deliver.  If you can identify it as a flaw, you can definitely imagine it being fixed.  But you might still question the extent to which it is on better units.  For instance, going from a 1440p image to a 1080p image might simply be trading blurry motion for imagery with less detail.

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Bad analogy - you can only 'taste' that kind of experience with a phone in the same way you can 'see' a color you've never seen by having someone describe it.

Yeah, that's pretty bad ;).  I've seen a lot of colors, and if someone showed me a card which was substantially "red" and told me it was the same shade, but a little "warmer", I could envision that color pretty closely.  Much in the same way I can experience variable perspective stereoscopic imagery with motion blurring and wish the blurring didn't occur :)

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In regards to motion controllers, you're right, you can't do everything you can with your actual hands - but this can be addressed surprisingly well by limiting the experience itself.  If you're character is always supposed to have a gun or flashlight or tool in his hand, and you're always holding a controller, it feels right. Consistency works pretty well.   And although you can't get the tactile feel of flipping an actual toggle switch, you can naturally and believably interact with 'holographic' touch screen guis with fingertip ( finger singular ) precision. 

If you don't mind pushing buttons with the business end of a Glock, then I guess it would seem natural.  But there's a difference between an action with a "believable" reaction, and natural interaction. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Samson on May 10, 2017, 02:30:05 pm

I won't dispute that there isn't enough horsepower in a phone to drive a 1440p display at 90hz.  But you can perform head movements slower to reduce the negative effects.

Reducing negative effects is not the same as adding positive ones, or meeting minimum performance.   Moving your head more slowly has no effect on the latency between when your head turns and when an updated image hits your eye.  Again, the important targets to hit for VR are sub 20ms latency from when you move your head to newly rendered accurately motion tracked stereo images hitting your eye, and being able to strobe those updated images at 90fps.

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As for it not having adequate tracking, I think you should do a bit of research on the Snapdragon 820.  IIRC, there is some pipeline technology built in to reduces IMU sensor latency to the 2ms range, and supposedly with Nougat and Googles VR service, it can run on par with the Gear, without additional IMU's.  I say supposedly, because my phone does not yet have Daydream support.  But even without it, I do not find the head tracking to be lacking at all.  It feels very fast and accurate.

No need to research it - my work phone is an S7.  There are a few phones now with better IMUs - but it still doesn't matter if the phone can't hit a 90hz refresh rate  - effective latency is still too high.  You need accurate tracking,  90fps, and < 20ms latency.  And again - you still have absolutely no positional tracking.  And the penalty for this is not just being unable to move around  - the small movements your head makes, even when standing still, are completely absent - and these are used to a surprising degree by your visual system.

Again - when I say VR - I'm talking about performance good enough so your subconscious believes the 3d space is real.

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Regardless, it's plenty to demonstrate what VR is, and it's a very short leap to imagine what the higher cost units would (hopefully) deliver. 
Well, we're going to have to agree to disagree here.  Please just bear in mind I do have experience with most of the VR devices available today.  ( I have most of them ), so I am speaking from experience.   Also, my thoughts about current phone based VR have no bearing on what I think the future of VR may or may not hold.  Love my phone - it just can't do VR.

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Yeah, that's pretty bad ;).  I've seen a lot of colors, and if someone showed me a card which was substantially "red" and told me it was the same shade, but a little "warmer", I could envision that color pretty closely. 
Oh, cmon - now you're just being disingenuous - and you're smarter than that :)  Shades of the same color?  ( I at least said 'new' color  ) 
I guess I asked for it, it was a bad analogy.
Obviously the answer is... an even worse analogy! ;) ...  Now explain your new color to someone who has always been blind.

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If you don't mind pushing buttons with the business end of a Glock, then I guess it would seem natural.  But there's a difference between an action with a "believable" reaction, and natural interaction.

I ported Doom 3 BFG to VR.  In the game, your character has a PDA you use to read emails and video/audio logs etc.  There are also crates with touch screen keypads you use to enter a three digit code to open.   I modified the PDA so when you open it, it projects it's display holographically from the device in your hand into the 3d world.  When you're using real motion controls ( touch or vive, PSVR isn't really accurate enough ), using the PDA or keypads is as natural as sticking out your index finger and touching the holograph.  Your weapon disappears, the hand model changes to a fist with your index finger sticking out,  and you're scrolling through emails, selecting audio logs, and entering combinations naturally with your index finger.  My fingertip is perfectly aligned.  And this by far isn't the best VR UI example available.  Again - you can't do everything your hands can do, but you can make an experience that is completely natural, believable, and intuitave when you tailor it to the capabilities of the hardware you have.

You should really try some of the higher end experiences - until you have, you just won't know what you don't know.   
And VR is absolutely not for everyone.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on May 10, 2017, 03:08:52 pm
There was, is, and always will be a demand for the high end graphics cards.
Just like there is demand for arcade parts.  Yet I don't see you making hundreds of millions of dollars from it.  The CAD and Computing markets aren't significant enough to drive GPU development and still provide enough demand to keep production high and costs low.  There is a reason graphics cards used to cost $10k or more in that segment.

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That's a bit over-generalized.  Samsung is doing it to help sell phones (profit).  Zuckerberg wants in on the ground floor of the VR software repository (profit). And then there is the military, who have already stated that current VR technology is pushing up against what they use, which costs much more.  Instant customer with deep pockets and an actual application (profit).  There are many motivations for dumping money into something, and it's usually with some shorter term goal in mind, with perhaps a reduced but possible chance of an outcome of much more.  There were sales projections and all of them fell far short of expectations.  I'm sure these were considered.
Despite sales projections falling short, more money has been dumped into development, so again I don't see where the industry as a whole is profitable right now.  That isn't to say that there are no short term profits to be had, or that companies like HTC aren't doing what they can to build the market and sell units.  There just isn't enough coming in to justify what is going out unless they are looking at the long term.  Wherever there is money being thrown around, there is room to make a few bucks.  Samsung is cashing in on it, sure.  And I bet they are also spending a bucket load of money in the background hoping to make their display technology and controller chips be a part of future VR headsets.

As for military, sure, they may well buy some units, but unless they plan to outfit every troop with a VR headset, they aren't digging very deep into those pockets.  In its current form, the military is probably looking at it as training hardware or perhaps for UAV control, in which they might buy a few thousand units.  That's not much more than a blip in overall sales, and probably at even lower margins than normal.  More likely, the military is interested in using VR for some kind of augmented reality, in which case it wouldn't surprise me if they were dumping millions into R&D behind the scenes, or even doing their own development.
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That's the "chicken and egg" dilemma which could be it's downfall.
Yet no technology comes about without passing this dilemma.  You can always make short term profits on making a consumer product with existing technology, but VR is currently falling just short of the mark even with the latest tech, so it is going to take more development to make this take off. 

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If the 90/10 rule is accurate, the "big boys" tend to get it wrong....a lot. 
Most businesses that fail are small businesses.  And it is usually because while they had a great idea, they didn't know a damn thing about business.  You don't get really big without getting a hell of a lot of stuff very right. 

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I'd be looking at how much of their own money they are risking, as opposed to that of others.  In the grand scheme of things, however, 100 million to them is like $100 to one of us.  If the entire industry is dropping a billion, cumulatively that's a drop in the bucket.
I feel this reflects your view of big business and/or rich people being casual about throwing around millions of dollars and nobody cares because there is a nearly endless supply.  Not true in the slightest.  If anything, the opposite is true, the more money you have, the tighter you have controlled it to get there.

And VR is just dabbling in a multi billion dollar industry, it isn't that big on its own (at least not yet).  If 100 million is being invested in a business that has only shown a few dozen million in revenues at a low margin, that says that people are very serious about investing in this technology.  And if you have millions of dollars to invest, you aren't going to shrug and toss it down a hole and speculate for a moment that it would be nice to see it again someday then turn and walk away.  Anyone who invests in stuff with a low chance of returning big dollars is a fool, and it is rare for a fool to become rich enough to be able to invest in long term technology, even rarer for that fool to be the one in charge of investing other people's money.  I know and have met a lot of very rich individuals, and they all have two things in common:  they are usually smarter than me and are never fools. 

And don't confuse my statements about long term investment in the technology with the desire for any company to profit from their investment.  HTC still has shareholders to appease, and it is never good to fall short of projections for the quarter.  They and others are doing all they can to reap profits from this right now.  Ultimately though, they are investing more into the future of VR than they are making, and that tells me that they know something that the average Arcade enthusiast doesn't.

I can see where you might get the idea that a company with billions of dollars doesn't care about investing 100 million and losing it.  Companies like Google and Amazon seem to throw away millions on dumb ideas all the time.  But in each and every case, they weigh the risks and are prepared to take a hit if it fails.  And yes, sometimes those ideas fail and they lose money.  For every one of those crazy investments that fail, there are dozens of ideas like it that worked out.  That is what makes companies like that so big.  We might laugh at Amazon for investing in drones to deliver packages, but if Target and WalMart both start investing in drones, I would argue that the idea is going to be bigger than anyone here imagined.  It isn't just one company investing in VR, it is several, and they are all big players.  In case you haven't figured it out, when I see a bunch of people making a bunch of money, I will be more inclined to believe they know what they are doing.

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...but anything can be accomplished with enough money.
No, it can't.  It can get farther, faster, but it's never a guarantee something will make it to the finish line.  Pesky things like physics, the "human element", etc. tend to get in the way.
Yes, I am exaggerating, but let's be honest, 20 years ago the dream of a 5" display with over 8 million pixels and a wide color gamut and high dynamic range of brightness was the stuff of the most outrageous science fiction.  Yet I can hold one in my hand today.  There is a contact lens out with a display built in to it.  The technology exists to print a video screen on fabric.  And scientists are figuring out ways to integrate electronics with nerve cells in the brain and actually inject sound and vision into people's heads.  You can't tell me that it is unrealistic to see an ultra light headset with high resolution screens in front of each eye that can augment or replace what a person is capable of seeing with their own eyes.  I wouldn't be surprised if it reached that state in a decade, let alone 2 or 3.  All it is going to take is a lot of money and some time.  And a lot of money is being invested.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on May 10, 2017, 03:29:34 pm
There was, is, and always will be a demand for the high end graphics cards.
Just like there is demand for arcade parts.  Yet I don't see you making hundreds of millions of dollars from it.  The CAD and Computing markets aren't significant enough to drive GPU development and still provide enough demand to keep production high and costs low.  There is a reason graphics cards used to cost $10k or more in that segment.

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That's a bit over-generalized.  Samsung is doing it to help sell phones (profit).  Zuckerberg wants in on the ground floor of the VR software repository (profit). And then there is the military, who have already stated that current VR technology is pushing up against what they use, which costs much more.  Instant customer with deep pockets and an actual application (profit).  There are many motivations for dumping money into something, and it's usually with some shorter term goal in mind, with perhaps a reduced but possible chance of an outcome of much more.  There were sales projections and all of them fell far short of expectations.  I'm sure these were considered.
Despite sales projections falling short, more money has been dumped into development, so again I don't see where the industry as a whole is profitable right now.  That isn't to say that there are no short term profits to be had, or that companies like HTC aren't doing what they can to build the market and sell units.  There just isn't enough coming in to justify what is going out unless they are looking at the long term.  Wherever there is money being thrown around, there is room to make a few bucks.  Samsung is cashing in on it, sure.  And I bet they are also spending a bucket load of money in the background hoping to make their display technology and controller chips be a part of future VR headsets.

As for military, sure, they may well buy some units, but unless they plan to outfit every troop with a VR headset, they aren't digging very deep into those pockets.  In its current form, the military is probably looking at it as training hardware or perhaps for UAV control, in which they might buy a few thousand units.  That's not much more than a blip in overall sales, and probably at even lower margins than normal.  More likely, the military is interested in using VR for some kind of augmented reality, in which case it wouldn't surprise me if they were dumping millions into R&D behind the scenes, or even doing their own development.
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That's the "chicken and egg" dilemma which could be it's downfall.
Yet no technology comes about without passing this dilemma.  You can always make short term profits on making a consumer product with existing technology, but VR is currently falling just short of the mark even with the latest tech, so it is going to take more development to make this take off. 

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If the 90/10 rule is accurate, the "big boys" tend to get it wrong....a lot. 
Most businesses that fail are small businesses.  And it is usually because while they had a great idea, they didn't know a damn thing about business.  You don't get really big without getting a hell of a lot of stuff very right. 

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I'd be looking at how much of their own money they are risking, as opposed to that of others.  In the grand scheme of things, however, 100 million to them is like $100 to one of us.  If the entire industry is dropping a billion, cumulatively that's a drop in the bucket.
I feel this reflects your view of big business and/or rich people being casual about throwing around millions of dollars and nobody cares because there is a nearly endless supply.  Not true in the slightest.  If anything, the opposite is true, the more money you have, the tighter you have controlled it to get there.

And VR is just dabbling in a multi billion dollar industry, it isn't that big on its own (at least not yet).  If 100 million is being invested in a business that has only shown a few dozen million in revenues at a low margin, that says that people are very serious about investing in this technology.  And if you have millions of dollars to invest, you aren't going to shrug and toss it down a hole and speculate for a moment that it would be nice to see it again someday then turn and walk away.  Anyone who invests in stuff with a low chance of returning big dollars is a fool, and it is rare for a fool to become rich enough to be able to invest in long term technology, even rarer for that fool to be the one in charge of investing other people's money.  I know and have met a lot of very rich individuals, and they all have two things in common:  they are usually smarter than me and are never fools. 

And don't confuse my statements about long term investment in the technology with the desire for any company to profit from their investment.  HTC still has shareholders to appease, and it is never good to fall short of projections for the quarter.  They and others are doing all they can to reap profits from this right now.  Ultimately though, they are investing more into the future of VR than they are making, and that tells me that they know something that the average Arcade enthusiast doesn't.

I can see where you might get the idea that a company with billions of dollars doesn't care about investing 100 million and losing it.  Companies like Google and Amazon seem to throw away millions on dumb ideas all the time.  But in each and every case, they weigh the risks and are prepared to take a hit if it fails.  And yes, sometimes those ideas fail and they lose money.  For every one of those crazy investments that fail, there are dozens of ideas like it that worked out.  That is what makes companies like that so big.  We might laugh at Amazon for investing in drones to deliver packages, but if Target and WalMart both start investing in drones, I would argue that the idea is going to be bigger than anyone here imagined.  It isn't just one company investing in VR, it is several, and they are all big players.  In case you haven't figured it out, when I see a bunch of people making a bunch of money, I will be more inclined to believe they know what they are doing.

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...but anything can be accomplished with enough money.
No, it can't.  It can get farther, faster, but it's never a guarantee something will make it to the finish line.  Pesky things like physics, the "human element", etc. tend to get in the way.
Yes, I am exaggerating, but let's be honest, 20 years ago the dream of a 5" display with over 8 million pixels and a wide color gamut and high dynamic range of brightness was the stuff of the most outrageous science fiction.  Yet I can hold one in my hand today.  There is a contact lens out with a display built in to it.  The technology exists to print a video screen on fabric.  And scientists are figuring out ways to integrate electronics with nerve cells in the brain and actually inject sound and vision into people's heads.  You can't tell me that it is unrealistic to see an ultra light headset with high resolution screens in front of each eye that can augment or replace what a person is capable of seeing with their own eyes.  I wouldn't be surprised if it reached that state in a decade, let alone 2 or 3.  All it is going to take is a lot of money and some time.  And a lot of money is being invested.

Just reminded me with your comment about contact lenses, Has anyone seen the TV series called black mirror?
Its a uk series but very good and raises lots of hypothetical questions but there was a few episodes which would scarily relate to this in terms of where this kind of tech could go one day:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playtest_(Black_Mirror)

Its worth a look for anyone interested :p
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on May 10, 2017, 03:50:43 pm
Heh... I love how paying 2 extra bucks for your ticket to an imax movie is compared to buying hundreds of dollars of equipment for a home setup.  People absolutely want 3D as a novelty in public forums, I already expressed that if he would bother to read the posts, but that isn't the same as wanting to invest the time, money and effort into  doing a home setup.  Hell even now that 3d tvs cost basically the same as a regular tv, nobody is buying them... thus the lackluster 3d tv sales.
You are comparing media to hardware.  It costs over a million dollars to put true IMAX technology in your living room.  To run a dual projector setup so you can use simple polarized glasses to watch 3D at home still costs in the range of about $60-100k.  Or you can rent it for $2 more per movie. 

You can compare the 3D tv with shutter glasses to cardboard VR (or a samsungVR) and be a little closer.  In both cases you have to have the display device that supports it, which will start at a few hundred dollars and go up from there.  For 3D TV you have to spend another $30-50 per set of shutter glasses.  You have to pay $25-$40 for a movie in 3D blu ray.  Then you have to put up with the higher frame rate and lower brightness.  Cardboard VR costs you another $5 above and beyond the phone, and content is free if you don't care about quality, cheap if you do, albeit very limited.  So if you have to compare 3D to VR, there you go, 3D is more expensive to get into, if all you want is to be able to say you have tried it and don't like it.

3D TV is a poor comparison to VR in any respect though.  It was never really developed much because all it really takes is 120hz and some fancy shutter glasses.  Most of it is software and media dependent, which means very very low cost of development.  Compare that to the cost to develop the tracking systems, write new game engines, develop controllers, come up with the designs for the headset, etc.  I bet they have already spent more on VR than was ever spent on 3D tv's in the last decade.  And TV manufacturers abandoned supporting 3D last year, and while some still have the support built in, it is only because the tech already exists so it was practically free to include it.

So recap:
Tech that sucked from day 1 but has a marginal cool factor if experienced in the best possible environment, cost very little to develop, has almost no media available to utilize at home, is already a dead technology in the home, a basic experience can be done for fairly cheap at home unless you want more media, and requires hundreds of thousands in hardware to "do right" in your home.
compared to
Tech that is amazing when done right and still pretty cool when done on the cheap, has a ton of content available after only a year, has had years to develop to this point, has even more money invested in future R&D and accessory development, can be had for practically free in a severely limited experience including hundreds of hours of free media, and costs about a thousand dollars to "do right" in any environment.

I'm still not seeing where these technologies have much in common.  I suppose they both add to the visual experience, but then again so does going to a strip joint.  Are you going to start comparing the cost of a stripper in your home to VR too?  I can tell you that the up front cost for that is about the same, but the experience will probably leave you about the same place as watching 3D TV. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ark_ader on May 10, 2017, 04:05:46 pm
I have found out with the Samsung VR headset and my Note5, that the capability is there with PC connectivity, but the environment isn't.  Its freaking hot after a while and if you wear glasses or contacts, it adds to the discomfort. I thought with the updated release of the Samsung VR headset, a fan would be incorporated into the design to stop the fogging.  I have tried all the anti fogging solutions to no avail.  Maybe it is a blessing, and people should not be wearing the VR headset for too long a period, due to complications of eye strain, headaches, going cross eyed  etc.

We all know what happened to the OPti-Grab.  :lol
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on May 10, 2017, 06:07:30 pm
Maybe it is a blessing, and people should not be wearing the VR headset for too long a period, due to complications of eye strain, headaches, going cross eyed  etc.

I've never had eye strain using the Vive, and that includes using it for up to 3 hours at a stretch.  Only time I ever had a headache was due to artificial motion trying to play Metroid Prime in VR.  Constant artificial rotation and switching between first and 3rd person started to make me dizzy and I had to quit after 10 or 15 minutes.

Other than that, VR has been quite mild as far as any side-effects go.  In fact, the biggest side effects I've noticed are sore muscles depending on the game.  VR can be a legitimate workout.  ;D
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 10, 2017, 06:09:21 pm
The CAD and Computing markets aren't significant enough to drive GPU development and still provide enough demand to keep production high and costs low.  There is a reason graphics cards used to cost $10k or more in that segment.

(ok, I'm ditching most of the quotes so I don't break the forum :))

We really weren't talking about the effect high-end gamers have on the ability of consumers to afford solutions which were previously unreachable.  A huge chunk of the cost of those graphics cards was R&D, and those companies paid it because it made them money.  So rather than the graphics card companies needing to extract those costs from fewer units, they can be amortized over a larger user base.  These advancements were taking place, and were paid for, long before the advent of 3D gaming.  And virtually every physical product is simulated and designed digitally now.  You can't watch a movie without seeing some very high-end 3D work (even in traditional, non-animated film.)  A buddy of mine did IT at a large productivity software company (you've heard of them), and talked occasionally about the hardware they used in just his small branch.  $200,000 boxes, and they had multiples.  I think the professional market is much, much larger than you profess to know.

VR on phones isn't at it's critical marketing point yet.  Samsung wants to be established in that space for when it gets there.  It's coming.  What happens after that remains to be seen, but I predict that due to the lower cost of entry, it will be quite successful.  In a short time, I suspect that VR capabilities for phones will be as common as cameras are currently.  Which phone provides the best VR experience, will play heavily in the consumers decision on which to purchase.  Google is why Samsung is so heavy in the game.

The future of warfare is automation and robotics.  At some point, VR headsets will be as common as night vision goggles.

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Yet no technology comes about without passing this dilemma.  You can always make short term profits on making a consumer product with existing technology, but VR is currently falling just short of the mark even with the latest tech, so it is going to take more development to make this take off. 

The visionaries sell the ideas, and there's a lot of "if we just add this, or fix that, then the world will be our oyster."  That will go on for some time, and that's where things are now.  If it bears fruit, or at least looks like it could, then more money is invested.  If not, shareholders and bean-counters slam the brakes.  No money, no development.

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Most businesses that fail are small businesses.

By definition, ALL startups (<5 years old) are "small businesses".  :)  The reasons they fail are almost too numerous to list.  And yes, even those with smart people behind them, with substantial investment, go down as well.  In those cases, it's often that the idea/product wasn't as marketable as was thought, or couldn't deliver what was promised, and the cost/time required to get it to the point that it would be, was not attractive to those investing in it.  Publicly traded companies crap out all of the time, and it took a while for them to even reach the point of being publicly traded.  If this wasn't happening, there would be no such thing as high-risk investments, nor overnight millionaires. 

Point being, large investment does not equate to a successful business.  As for the term, there's a reason why big companies never want to see a negative trend in their earnings, even for a few quarters.  Investors start selling, and their stock falls.  Falling stock prices erodes investor confidence and operating capital starts to dry up.  Again, no operating capital, no further development.

Rich people are rich, because their gains outweighed their losses.  Risk is risk.  Smart people do what they can to mitigate it to the extent possible, and try to make all the right choices.  But at the end of the day, investing in anything new and unproven, is a much larger risk than investing in something which has an established market and a proven record of return.  Investment companies look for the things they believe, through whatever market research they have available, will have the highest likelihood of a substantial return, while realizing that whatever they throw in is "at risk" (meaning, they could lose most if not all of what they invest). Few invest  stupidly and lose their money, and few become rich through luck.  But both do happen, and even with the best research, some things just don't work out in the end.  That's where diversification comes into play.

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I can see where you might get the idea that a company with billions of dollars doesn't care about investing 100 million and losing it.  Companies like Google and Amazon seem to throw away millions on dumb ideas all the time.  But in each and every case, they weigh the risks and are prepared to take a hit if it fails.

Ok, now explain how this is any different from any other large investor?   Unless you are making the claim that some of them are "all in" and not ready to take that hit. :)

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Yes, I am exaggerating, but let's be honest, 20 years ago the dream of a 5" display with over 8 million pixels and a wide color gamut and high dynamic range of brightness was the stuff of the most outrageous science fiction.  Yet I can hold one in my hand today

Here's the problem.  If VR/AR doesn't make it, there's virtually no other reason to keep pushing the screen size down and pixel density up.  4k is overkill for a handheld display, and it wouldn't even be that high now, were it not for the cell phone market, where, you know, more is always better.  And we all know that those who just had to have a 4k display will be complaining about refresh rates, battery life, or the size of the phone to house a proper battery. 

I don't know, a lot of what we are talking about is miniaturization, efficiency and power storage, and we are very close to physical limits of what can be done conventionally and safely on a number of these fronts.  The only good thing is that on the display side of things, there isn't much which relates solely to VR, so as advances occur organically over time in those fields of study, the results will be useful at a later date for VR.  But even with an unlimited budget, getting past some of these hurdles can take an amount of time which we probably can't even quantify at the moment.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on May 10, 2017, 06:16:56 pm
Has anyone seen the TV series called black mirror?
Its a uk series but very good and raises lots of hypothetical questions but there was a few episodes which would scarily relate to this in terms of where this kind of tech could go one day:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playtest_(Black_Mirror)

Its worth a look for anyone interested :p

Oh yes, Black Mirror is a great series.  Although it can be a downer at times.  But anyone who likes sci-fi should check it out.

That episode in particular highlights the rather scary prospect of VR becoming indistinguishable from reality.  I keep seeing people claiming that until VR can perfectly mimic reality, they wouldn't want it.  But would you really want that?

Horror games in VR, for example, despite low-resolution imagery and slightly bulky headsets are still freaky as balls.  For stuff like that, I'm not sure I'd want VR to be that much more immersive.  It's nice to be able to just lift up the headset when things get too intense.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 10, 2017, 07:22:22 pm
Has anyone seen the TV series called black mirror?
Its a uk series but very good and raises lots of hypothetical questions but there was a few episodes which would scarily relate to this in terms of where this kind of tech could go one day:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playtest_(Black_Mirror)

Its worth a look for anyone interested :p

Oh yes, Black Mirror is a great series.  Although it can be a downer at times.  But anyone who likes sci-fi should check it out.

That episode in particular highlights the rather scary prospect of VR becoming indistinguishable from reality.  I keep seeing people claiming that until VR can perfectly mimic reality, they wouldn't want it.  But would you really want that?

Very smart series.  I usually binge watch it as soon as it hits Netflix.  It's pretty dark stuff, and shows how wrong things can (and probably will) go with only a natural progression of the technology we are using now.  Probably as much prophecy as fantasy.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on May 10, 2017, 07:27:53 pm
Yes its pretty dark but totally believable stuff.

Its a bit like Terminator really :p
Just easier to see where we can and will go wrong lol

Though I thought the episode with the murderer was a damn good idea!
Wont say anymore on that though incase someone has not seen it :p
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on May 10, 2017, 07:37:49 pm
First two original episodes were good, rest sucked.  Netflix reboot was terrible.  You people have bad taste.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on May 10, 2017, 07:55:07 pm
First two original episodes were good, rest sucked.  Netflix reboot was terrible.  You people have bad taste.

Think its just u PBJ :p
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 10, 2017, 09:06:24 pm
Again, the important targets to hit for VR are sub 20ms latency from when you move your head to newly rendered accurately motion tracked stereo images hitting your eye, and being able to strobe those updated images at 90fps.

I'm gonna be so mad if I drop coin on one of these things and find out it's just a smoother, lower resolution version of what I have already experienced...

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Again - when I say VR - I'm talking about performance good enough so your subconscious believes the 3d space is real.

Again - I'm gonna be so mad . . . :)

"VR" is getting used so interchangeably with motion controls, HMDs, stereoscopic imaging, etc. that I'm not even sure what someone means anymore with a statement like "Love my phone - it just can't do VR."  If it means "compared to all the other high-priced hardware with motion controls I own, the experience is severely lacking", then I wouldn't have issue with the statement.  But surely the basic execution of convincing, variable perspective stereoscopic imaging it can do.  I've seen it.  But if not, then I'm leaning toward the "never going to take off" crowd, as I currently see cell phones, and maybe the PSVR as the best hope of it gaining mass market acceptance.

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Oh, cmon - now you're just being disingenuous - and you're smarter than that :)  Shades of the same color?  ( I at least said 'new' color  ) 
I guess I asked for it, it was a bad analogy.
Obviously the answer is... an even worse analogy! ;) ...  Now explain your new color to someone who has always been blind.

:)  Sorry.  I was confused, given that there is no such thing as a "new color".  Not sure the other analogy is any more useful, given that color is what we humans call our perception of certain energy wavelengths through functional eyeballs.  Pretty sure the difference isn't that drastic.

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You should really try some of the higher end experiences - until you have, you just won't know what you don't know.   
And VR is absolutely not for everyone.

I like the exculpatory bit at the end :), but yes, the way you handled it sounds interesting, and I'd very much like to try the high end systems.  But it's probably not likely that I'll have the opportunity any time soon.  Frugality can be a curse sometimes.  But I have a PSVR coming now, if the ebay seller doesn't get mad that I got it for so cheap, and backs out.  I'm afraid that's the distance I'm willing to go on this, and if that doesn't cut it, then I'm out.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on May 10, 2017, 10:13:56 pm
I currently see cell phones, and maybe the PSVR as the best hope of it gaining mass market acceptance.

Personally, I see neither of these as being a mass market breakthrough.  I think mass market will come from some hereto unknown device probably another 5 or 10 years down the line.  Possibly a fully self-contained device built from the ground up for VR.  Maybe when Apple releases iVR or something. :P
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 11, 2017, 12:28:31 am
Personally, I see neither of these as being a mass market breakthrough.  I think mass market will come from some hereto unknown device probably another 5 or 10 years down the line.  Possibly a fully self-contained device built from the ground up for VR.  Maybe when Apple releases iVR or something. :P

You may be right, but that device might just also be a phone.  There are already roads being paved in that direction, and millions of users to help fund development through constant device upgrades.  Perhaps the greatest value in this approach is the longer term phasing in of the technology, with incremental improvements in hardware and software along the way.  Giving users the opportunity to adapt to the use of VR, much as they did the smartphones themselves, may be what is required to get to the point where VR is similarly inextricable from their daily lives.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Samson on May 11, 2017, 04:54:00 am
I'm gonna be so mad if I drop coin on one of these things and find out it's just a smoother, lower resolution version of what I have already experienced...

Honestly -  your best bet is probably to wait if money remotely plays a factor - even if its just the frugal gene. Don't buy anything without trying it first if you have any reservations at all.  The Vive and Rift don't do it for everyone, even with a top of the line PC.  The highest end stuff is expensive and still has issues, there aren't many AAA class experiences available yet, and the crappy experiences are pretty much what you fear - smoother versions of what you've experienced.  All this will change though if given some time.

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"VR" is getting used so interchangeably with motion controls, HMDs, stereoscopic imaging, etc. that I'm not even sure what someone means anymore with a statement like "Love my phone - it just can't do VR."  If it means "compared to all the other high-priced hardware with motion controls I own, the experience is severely lacking", then I wouldn't have issue with the statement.  But surely the basic execution of convincing, variable perspective stereoscopic imaging it can do.  I've seen it.

Yeah, people throw the term VR around a lot.  There's another term you'll hear a lot as well - presence, which is often vaguely defined as something like 'believing you are somewhere else'.   The issue seems to be that everyone has a different threshold for what convinces their lizard brain that a space is valid.  When it does happen, it's a 'holy moly' kind of thing, it's definitely not just smoother stereoscopy.   It's also difficult to quantify, and it's a pretty potent experience that my phone can't produce.  Although it can do 'variable perspective stereoscopic imaging' :).

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But if not, then I'm leaning toward the "never going to take off" crowd, as I currently see cell phones, and maybe the PSVR as the best hope of it gaining mass market acceptance.

I don't think VR is going to die, not by any stretch, but it's going to be a slower burn than some people seem to imagine.  Most people wont be buying new PCs to support this - sadly it seems the PC's heyday is winding down.  I think more powerful consoles and more powerful mobile processing will eventually make it mainstream, but the horsepower isn't there yet on those platforms.  ( The PS4 pro is better, and it will be really interesting to see what microsoft does with scorpio - they've pretty much promised some form of VR.)  Until then it's going to be the early adopter/enthusiast crowd. 

We'll also start to see commercial applications become more commonplace before mainstream adoption - in the not too distant future people aren't going to be driving around visiting a bunch of houses before buying one, the grunt work will be virtual.

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I like the exculpatory bit at the end :)


Always good to leave a little wiggle room :)
Seriously though, there are some issues with current VR that prevent it from being suitable for everyone - motion sickness for example.

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And I'd very much like to try the high end systems.  But it's probably not likely that I'll have the opportunity any time soon.  Frugality can be a curse sometimes.

If you find yourself passing down the I95 corridor in the mid atlantic region anytime soon,  post a message and I'll see if I can arrange a demo.

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But I have a PSVR coming now, if the ebay seller doesn't get mad that I got it for so cheap, and backs out.  I'm afraid that's the distance I'm willing to go on this, and if that doesn't cut it, then I'm out.

I really want to comment about this, but don't want to bias your opinion before you try it.  Did you have to buy a console and headset, or just the headset?



( And in case anyone's curious about the new guy, I've actually been reading the forums for a long time.  Long enough that I forgot the email address and password for my original account Koz319 - not that I ever posted often. )
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on May 11, 2017, 08:58:34 am
Well Randy as I said previously I love my PSVR, its allot of fun!
Dont expect it to make you feel like its real, It wont the GFX are just not that advanced yet.

But it works really well and its lots of fun. At least the games that I have played thus far are.
If you wear glasses though its worth investing a few quid on the lens protectors that stick on via ebay.
Mine are fine but I have heard of people scratching their lenses with specs.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ChadTower on May 11, 2017, 09:24:22 am



Gaming center by my house just picked up Resident Evil 7, Until Dawn:  Rush of Blood, and Farpoint.  Now I get to see what the PS VR can really do.  So stoked.   :cheers:
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on May 11, 2017, 11:27:02 am
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I'm gonna be so mad if I drop coin on one of these things and find out it's just a smoother, lower resolution version of what I have already experienced...

I would not buy a VR headset if I were you; you have to have some interest in the idea of the product to begin with. If everyone says they enjoy riding a bike around in the summer but you think riding a bike is stupid and will never use it, no point in going out and buying a $1000 bike. Maybe borrow a friends bike for a day and see if it something you want to do again.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on May 11, 2017, 12:08:36 pm
So this just got posted.  Sounds like all Payday 2 content is coming to VR with asymmetric gameplay with non-VR players.  Exciting!

Payday 2 VR (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTwSQLkJy5Q#)

More here: https://www.polygon.com/2017/5/10/15614488/payday-2-vr-mode-free (https://www.polygon.com/2017/5/10/15614488/payday-2-vr-mode-free)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on May 11, 2017, 12:15:41 pm
Looks interesting.  Shame we always go for the murder simulators.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on May 11, 2017, 12:31:50 pm
Looks interesting.  Shame we always go for the murder simulators.

There's always this as an alternative  ;D

VR Kanojo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SS1J0a88EnU#)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 11, 2017, 01:33:49 pm
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I'm gonna be so mad if I drop coin on one of these things and find out it's just a smoother, lower resolution version of what I have already experienced...

I would not buy a VR headset if I were you; you have to have some interest in the idea of the product to begin with. If everyone says they enjoy riding a bike around in the summer but you think riding a bike is stupid and will never use it, no point in going out and buying a $1000 bike. Maybe borrow a friends bike for a day and see if it something you want to do again.

That was a tongue-in-cheek statement, for those who didn't catch it. :)

I do a have some interest in it, albeit very limited.  I could care less about looking in a mirror and saying "I'm Batman" in my best guttural voice, while my virtual hands are twitching like some poor unfortunate with a mild neurological impairment.  :)  But I do have a racing rig, and am intrigued by the possibilities for using it with that.  No VR controls necessary, and drivers wear helmets, so it seems like a fit.  3D space shooting / flying games, or pretty much any games where the player is cockpit-bound sound like a good use (for me) as well.  I'll probably try out pinball too, because it's pinball :). 

Outside of that, I'll have to see.  If I have to live with stripped down graphics, the hook of the other stuff is going to need to be pretty strong.


Honestly -  your best bet is probably to wait if money remotely plays a factor - even if its just the frugal gene.

. . .

I really want to comment about this, but don't want to bias your opinion before you try it.  Did you have to buy a console and headset, or just the headset?

I appreciate the invitation, but I don't get down that way :).  Maybe they will bring back the box-store demos at some point.

The "gene" is definitely the issue.  There has to be a really good reason for me to spend more than I need to, and I just couldn't find it in VR at the moment.

I just needed the headset and move controllers (so I could at least get a sample of that kind of thing).  I already have a couple of PS4's, so cost of entry on a used unit was about in line with what my curiosity would force me to spend.  Not that anyone cares, but I'll post my thoughts when I play with it for bit (if it ever shows up, that is.)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on May 11, 2017, 02:59:48 pm
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There's always this as an alternative  ;D


VR Kanojo   

I just downloaded the demo, probably make a whole dating sim game from this. They must have made it in the Unreal Engine, seems like every VR game that comes from Unreal Engine has an Anti-aliasing bug in VR, Unity games always look fine.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on May 11, 2017, 03:50:16 pm
The CAD and Computing markets aren't significant enough to drive GPU development and still provide enough demand to keep production high and costs low.  There is a reason graphics cards used to cost $10k or more in that segment.
A huge chunk of the cost of those graphics cards was R&D, and those companies paid it because it made them money.
I disagree, I think most of the cost was in manufacturing nearly one off products.  They were making thousands of GL cards back then, but it takes making hundreds of thousands of them to make it consumer level cheap and retain that level of technology, let alone advancing that technology.
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These advancements were taking place, and were paid for, long before the advent of 3D gaming.
Again, I disagree, the pace nVidia set starting with the Riva128 in developing GPU technology was unprecedented before they came into the picture.  Within 3 generations, they had a $300 card that rivaled the rendering power of a $10k professional card, with only the driver technology missing to make it a direct replacement for professional applications.  If the CAD and CGI industries were as strong as you say, then this would have been going on BEFORE the demand from the consumer gaming segment. 
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And virtually every physical product is simulated and designed digitally now.  You can't watch a movie without seeing some very high-end 3D work (even in traditional, non-animated film.)  A buddy of mine did IT at a large productivity software company (you've heard of them), and talked occasionally about the hardware they used in just his small branch.  $200,000 boxes, and they had multiples.  I think the professional market is much, much larger than you profess to know.
I think you are severely overestimating the actual volume of GPUs the old market was demanding.  Volume is what drastically alters consumer availability of a product.  A few big CGI companies spending millions on one-off technology is not equal to tens of millions of consumers looking for $300-700 products.  It wasn't like there were hundreds of these companies out there doing outsourced CGI rendering for Hollywood.  There were a few big ones, a small handful of small ones, and maybe a few thousand companies doing CAD work with 3D modeling that required this kind of hardware.   None of them were looking to upgrade annually, and none of them were doing the kind of volume that leads to evolving manufacturing techniques.

Here is a similar case to what you are talking about - a market segment where there are thousands of companies needing technology and spending HUGE dollars.  High volume SSD Drives.  About 5 years ago I was buying a big server, and HP had a PCIe SSD card that was 1TB.  The PCIe interface meant it was faster than any tech out at the time, and 1tb in a single solid state hard drive was unheard of.  But it cost $35,000.  Today you can get a 1TB SSD with a similar speed interface for about $400.  So yes, the tech was there to do it several years ago, but the comparison is apples to oranges.  The question was never whether a $10,000 GPU was high tech at the time, but rather if the technology was there to produce that $10,000 GPU for $300.  It wasn't.  And it never would have been without the demand from the consumer gaming market.  It takes being able to manufacture hundreds of thousands of units combined with the R&D to pack more and more into less and less of a package.  That never would have happened with GPU's without consumer demand, and it never would have happened to SSD's without consumer demand.  At least not in the time frame it happened in. 

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VR on phones isn't at it's critical marketing point yet.  Samsung wants to be established in that space for when it gets there.  It's coming.  What happens after that remains to be seen, but I predict that due to the lower cost of entry, it will be quite successful.  In a short time, I suspect that VR capabilities for phones will be as common as cameras are currently.  Which phone provides the best VR experience, will play heavily in the consumers decision on which to purchase.  Google is why Samsung is so heavy in the game.
I think that prediction is solid, but then you could have said the same about 3D in televisions.  It is an easy jump for either in terms of relating hardware to a new feature, yet the quality leaves the consumer desiring much more than they can deliver, and that was certainly a factor in the demise of 3D in the home market.
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Most businesses that fail are small businesses.
By definition, ALL startups (<5 years old) are "small businesses".  :)
Again, splitting hairs.  MOST small businesses that start are little operations, usually started by people with no knowledge of business.  It would not be a 90/10 rule if every business that opened the doors was started by someone who knew how to run a business and had the capital to make it successful.  Sure, even really good business ideas implemented by really smart business people fail, but not at the rate of the overall trend.  Open a local business newspaper and see how many business licenses are applied for each month.  It is staggering.  Most of those don't last a few months.
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If this wasn't happening, there would be no such thing as high-risk investments, nor overnight millionaires. 
Overnight millionaires are almost always also overnight bankrupt millionaires.  It is exceedingly rare that someone actually becomes successful overnight.  it is even more rare that they cash out on it.  And it is even more rare than those two that they don't immediately reinvest it and usually lose it.  You hear about it a lot because it makes for good stories.  If you know someone who makes a lot of money by taking huge risks that pay off big, start betting against them.  If they go in big on a tech stock, short that stock.  Chances are you will become the next overnight millionaire, because it is only a matter of time before they lose big.  People like that don't last.

It's funny how terms like "high risk" are perceived.  I recently evaluated a multinational software company for financial viability, and they were given the worst possible rating for risk of bankruptcy.  The chance was .04%.  Not 4%, .04%.  That is "high risk". 

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Point being, large investment does not equate to a successful business.
But my point was that if you follow large investment, you have a greater chance of being right than if you follow an arcade enthusiast who thinks it will fail because he wouldn't buy it at that price point.  That's all I'm saying.  When it comes to whether or not VR will be successful, I trust someone who is paid really well to make decisions like that for people who are usually very successful over any member here.  You can look at the exceptions all day long and point and say "See, you are wrong".  The fact is, MOST OF THE TIME, big companies get it right, which is why they are big companies.  So if you were betting YOUR money, would you bet on a big company or an arcade enthusiast?
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Yes, I am exaggerating, but let's be honest, 20 years ago the dream of a 5" display with over 8 million pixels and a wide color gamut and high dynamic range of brightness was the stuff of the most outrageous science fiction.  Yet I can hold one in my hand today
Here's the problem.  If VR/AR doesn't make it, there's virtually no other reason to keep pushing the screen size down and pixel density up.  4k is overkill for a handheld display, and it wouldn't even be that high now, were it not for the cell phone market, where, you know, more is always better.  And we all know that those who just had to have a 4k display will be complaining about refresh rates, battery life, or the size of the phone to house a proper battery. 

I don't know, a lot of what we are talking about is miniaturization, efficiency and power storage, and we are very close to physical limits of what can be done conventionally and safely on a number of these fronts.  The only good thing is that on the display side of things, there isn't much which relates solely to VR, so as advances occur organically over time in those fields of study, the results will be useful at a later date for VR.  But even with an unlimited budget, getting past some of these hurdles can take an amount of time which we probably can't even quantify at the moment.
As a species, we could have stopped at fire and the wheel and still been the dominant species on this planet.  But where's the fun in that?  I want to have my smartphone made so small and so high tech that it is implanted inside me with the displays grown into my retinas.  I want a supercomputer implanted in my head, with displays in my eyeballs and the ability to see, hear, feel, smell, and in general, experience in detail anything I want to experience, even if it isn't real.   I WANT to see landscapes that don't exist.  I WANT to drive cars I can't afford on a race track that doesn't exist, racing against other drivers who are actually on other continents.  I WANT to be able to stand in my living room, or yard, or even on a sidewalk and start a game where I am fighting off wave after wave of zombies or space aliens.  I WANT altered reality technology so that when I look around, all the women look skinny and beautiful, not fat and wearing pajamas at WalMart.  THAT is why they keep making this stuff smaller and smaller and more and more powerful, because they know that every person out there will pay to have it.

And if you ask me, VR isn't the future.  Convergence is the future.  I envision a day when technology comes together and turns everything into seamless hardware.  Your phone is also your VR, a controller for your car, your TV when you are home, and your computer when you get to work.  One device to rule them all.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on May 11, 2017, 04:02:13 pm
Do you really want that Dkersten? ;)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Entire_History_of_You

Another black mirror plug lol
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 12, 2017, 02:11:44 am
. . .

Ok, it seems we agree on just about nothing.  The opinions of "arcade enthusiasts",whom you so casually write off, are also opinions of people who run the gamut of skills and occupations and some have been hard-core tech enthusiasts since the dawn of the era.  I publicly predicted the failure and eventual abandonment of 3DTV.  Not because I couldn't afford it, but because I worked in a glasses-free 3D display tech startup, and over a 7 year period, aside from developing manufacturing processes and general IT, I performed research on it's marketability.  What  I witnessed first-hand was the dismissal of 3D display tech in general by consumers as a "novelty", and of no appreciable practical value.  The company no longer exists, because top-tier management did not take my advice to diversify, choosing rather to put all of it's eggs in a basket with no bottom.  The 30,000 shares of stock I owned in that company became worthless as a result.   I'd say that the TV industry should have solicited my opinion, but 3DTV was never based on consumer demand.  It was forced by the TV and entertainment industries as a way to prop up faltering sales figures, and because they thought they could convince the public it was something they couldn't live without.  The "Big Boys" dropped  the ball on that one, wouldn't you say?

A lot of folks here are also old enough to have lived through the period of time in question, and know a bit about the state of the technology market in those days.  None of the bases for much of the tech we use today, ever had home users in mind when it was invented.  Focusing on cost distribution, rather than the fact that in virtually every case, the home user gets "hand me down" tech funded primarily through purchases from government, research and professional entities, takes this discussion nowhere.  If you think gaming is what is driving graphics card technology, just look here (https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/data-center/home/?ncid=van-datacenter).  A box full of Tesla cards was the hardware I was referring to earlier.  Maybe someday we'll get to play with some of that tech as well.

As for the Riva128, there were already cards on the market in that sector which professional applications had started to support, and the Riva128 was not one of them.  Nvidia had new technology and was going after 3dFX, who also just happened to be the company gaining that support.  The era of the $10,000 workstation graphics card was already coming to an end, because technology had marched on, as it does, and the graphic card companies could amortize the costs over a larger user base.  But the professional market always has higher demands, both in performance and in the drivers, than the consumer market. What's more is that they are willing and able to pay for them.  What you seem to overlook is that technology added to the company's IP portfolio, even as a result of an insanely expensive "one-off", still benefits the lower tiers when it eventually gets incorporated into those offerings.  This allows the card companies to remain technologically competitive, thereby ensuring the continuation of high revenue streams.

I think the thing we disagree on is the definition of "drive". I am of the opinion that tech is what drives the market, while you seem to be asserting that it is economies of scale.   In reality, it is probably both to varying degrees, depending on the market in question.

I don't know about the "Bankruptcy" version of "high-risk", but with investments, the chance of losing your back-side is more than .04% :)

Oh, and before I die, I want the flying cars I was promised before I was born, but I don't see that happening either ;)  My assumption as to your age would sadly mean that you probably won't get to experience most of those things on your list either.  Maybe we should first put in the effort to cure cancer and old age, before worrying about putting a display in your eyeball (which is extraneous, btw, if you already have a computer in your head ;) )
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ChadTower on May 12, 2017, 09:26:32 am



Is there a VR version of this thread?  2D isn't doing it for me anymore.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: yotsuya on May 12, 2017, 09:29:35 am



Is there a VR version of this thread?  2D isn't doing it for me anymore.
There is, but unless you're running it on a $10,000 dedicated PC, don't even get out of bed otherwise.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on May 12, 2017, 09:39:25 am
Talking of investments I just heard about this on the Radio:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.cnbc.com/amp/2017/05/12/softbank-leads-500-million-investment-into-uk-virtual-reality-start-up.html
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 12, 2017, 11:39:09 am
Talking of investments I just heard about this on the Radio:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.cnbc.com/amp/2017/05/12/softbank-leads-500-million-investment-into-uk-virtual-reality-start-up.html (https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.cnbc.com/amp/2017/05/12/softbank-leads-500-million-investment-into-uk-virtual-reality-start-up.html)

I hate to say it, but I get the uneasy feeling that the company's product has very little to do with "VR", and only brings that into the picture to take advantage of the hype.  Don't get me wrong.  The technology they are talking about seems very interesting, and the profit model (repository of modeled behaviors for their simulation "sandbox") seems quite viable.  But in all honesty, VR could vanish and the technology would still be useful.  It's a back-end distributed server operating system focused on simulation, which really wouldn't need to do much different, or have much change in it's value, even if navigated through a conventional 2D interface.  "VR" in the context of this technology is equivalent to "VR" in the context of a Call of Duty map.  Just much more complex where interactivity of it's elements are concerned.  The "permanence" factor they talk about is bit off-putting as well.  Who would play a game if when you died, you were actually dead to that world, forever?  All the friends you made, and interacted with in that space would be gone forever (again, in that space.)  It's the application version of removing the save button from your file menu, and the system saving every change you made, even if it was for the worse, while giving access to your work to those with no vested interest in it.  To me, that aspect is a recipe for mayhem, and while it's reflective of reality, it's one of the worst aspects of it . . . unless you've always dreamed of being a virtual hobo / crime victim :).
 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on May 12, 2017, 12:08:02 pm
Ok, it seems we agree on just about nothing.
I disagree with this.. lol

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The opinions of "arcade enthusiasts",whom you so casually write off, are also opinions of people who run the gamut of skills and occupations and some have been hard-core tech enthusiasts since the dawn of the era.
Sorry, it's a whole new world out there.  What drove US to spend money in our teens and as young adults is not what drives the current generation.  I don't write off the opinions of people here, I just see a distinct line, one where those who feel it is not worth a $2k investment (if you don't already have a PC) are convinced it will fail simply because they wouldn't buy it as it is right now, and where those who DID buy into it now as enthusiasts are convinced this is the best thing since sliced bread.  Regardless of who is right or wrong, would YOU invest your money based on the opinions in this thread?  I am betting the answer is no.  For me, if I were to bet on this industry, which I am not, I would side with those people who are already throwing money at it.  I think they did their research, and it probably didn't include an off topic arcade control forum.

That being said, I do believe that the people here, whether I agree with their opinions or not, are a fair representation of the middle age segment of gamers.  But any gamer also knows that gamers are very particular about the genre they play in.  A hardcore PC FPS gamer isn't going to agree with a hardcore console FPS gamer on much, even though they may be playing the same game.  With that in mind, think of how much opinions diverge between a hardcore VR gamer and a hardcore classic arcade gamer.  Night and Day differences.  As a whole, we represent a multibillion dollar industry that is bigger than Hollywood, but as individuals we represent niches that are usually on polar opposites of the spectrum.

Quote
  I publicly predicted the failure and eventual abandonment of 3DTV.  Not because I couldn't afford it, but because I worked in a glasses-free 3D display tech startup, and over a 7 year period, aside from developing manufacturing processes and general IT, I performed research on it's marketability.  What  I witnessed first-hand was the dismissal of 3D display tech in general by consumers as a "novelty", and of no appreciable practical value.  The company no longer exists, because top-tier management did not take my advice to diversify, choosing rather to put all of it's eggs in a basket with no bottom.  The 30,000 shares of stock I owned in that company became worthless as a result.   I'd say that the TV industry should have solicited my opinion, but 3DTV was never based on consumer demand.  It was forced by the TV and entertainment industries as a way to prop up faltering sales figures, and because they thought they could convince the public it was something they couldn't live without.  The "Big Boys" dropped  the ball on that one, wouldn't you say?
I have hated 3dtv since the day it was introduced.  In fact, I played Descent with shutter glasses the day it became available, and while it had a cool factor, I immediately dismissed it as a novelty.  I loved Descent as a game, but had no desire to play it with shutter glasses.  But I also never really cared for 3D in movies either.  My eyes are sensitive to that, and while the latest iterations on IMAX are pretty astounding if the movie is done right, I still prefer to see movies in 2D.

In essense, I agree 100% with what you are saying about 3dtv here.  (see, we don't disagree on everything).  But IMHO, 3DTV is to VR what a Barbie Corvette is to a Ferrari.  Sure, they both have 4 wheels and move when you press a pedal, but that is where the similarities end.  I tried VR based on what I read in the first page of this thread, and as a hardcore PC gamer since 1984, I was blown away and see it as the future of PC gaming.

BTW, I am also a home theater enthusiast and am building a house around a theater space where I will dump close to $100k into the theater by the time all is said and done.  Yet I will not even consider 3dtv as a part of that theater.  I am about as enthusiastic about display technology as it gets, and the best possible target demographic for that technology, yet I will never sink a penny into it.  How could someone who is so adamantly against 3dtv love VR?  Very Simple - Because they are two completely different things.

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I think the thing we disagree on is the definition of "drive". I am of the opinion that tech is what drives the market, while you seem to be asserting that it is economies of scale.   In reality, it is probably both to varying degrees, depending on the market in question.
I agree with this.  We definitely disagree here.  There is a lot of really cool tech out there that will never reach market because nobody will buy it.  Sure, some of it will get developed for very specific uses, but it will always remain outside the hands of consumers, and when it comes down to it, the entire argument on this thread is revolving around whether VR will make it as a consumer product.  The key to this is getting the cost down so that GOOD VR is affordable to people who are on the fence about it, and that means not only inventing the tech that will get it there, but then also figuring out how to mass produce it to keep the cost down.

Quote
Oh, and before I die, I want the flying cars I was promised before I was born, but I don't see that happening either ;)  My assumption as to your age would sadly mean that you probably won't get to experience most of those things on your list either.  Maybe we should first put in the effort to cure cancer and old age, before worrying about putting a display in your eyeball (which is extraneous, btw, if you already have a computer in your head ;) )
You don't make the leap to neural interfaces without a stepping stone that involves more simplified cybernetics, lol... ;)

I am not writing off flying cars quite yet.  The biggest hangup there is safety, and that is a nasty argument that could turn political in a hurry, but keep in mind, autonomous cars have come a long way, and that kind of tech would be fairly easy to translate into something that doesn't have to watch for pedestrians or road construction.  The sky is a good medium for that, but this is a major chicken and egg scenario.  However, consider an alternative that may be closer than flying cars that fly themselves -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEDrMriKsFM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEDrMriKsFM)

You may see the future as more of the same disappointment we experienced in the first decade of 2000, but I see it as very bright, at least in terms of technology.  We have rockets that can land themselves under power on a platform moving around on water.  FRIKKIN ROCKETS MAN!  We have cars driving themselves around, robot skeletons for paraplegics to walk again, and even neural interfaces that actually work and can control a robotic arm!  You can buy a pair of sunglasses that fixes colorblindness!  If you look beyond what you can buy at Costco, you find all kinds of stuff that in the 80's were the subject of the most fantastical science fiction.  If we don't destroy our economy with socialism or destroy our planet with CO2 first, you may very well get your flying car.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on May 12, 2017, 12:17:17 pm
I played Descent with two mirrors hot glued to a pair of sunglasses with the lenses taken out.  It actually worked....

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on May 12, 2017, 07:37:21 pm
Quote
I played Descent with two mirrors hot glued to a pair of sunglasses with the lenses taken out.  It actually worked....

Remember doing that with Heretic .
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: CoryBee on May 13, 2017, 06:56:04 am
I have the HTC Vive since it came out, I loved playing it for hours. I still put it on every now and then to try out new games but my current situation does not afford me much space to play in. In California I played it a lot as I had a dedicated room for it and my gaming PC setup.

I could go on about how an amazing experience it was, cause it really is, but I am waiting to play it again until I move into a much bigger house or better games come out for the room size I am working with.

Mind you, I get motion sickness easy so without big space to move freely in I have to use the artificial movements which make me sick quick.

God that bow and arrow game in the Valve demo is so much fun though. I wish they turned that into a full blown game with levels and more enemies. I think I played that game for over an hour straight and the headset itself for 5 hours the day I got it.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on May 13, 2017, 07:18:05 am
I have the HTC Vive since it came out, I loved playing it for hours. I still put it on every now and then to try out new games but my current situation does not afford me much space to play in. In California I played it a lot as I had a dedicated room for it and my gaming PC setup.

I could go on about how an amazing experience it was, cause it really is, but I am waiting to play it again until I move into a much bigger house or better games come out for the room size I am working with.

Mind you, I get motion sickness easy so without big space to move freely in I have to use the artificial movements which make me sick quick.

God that bow and arrow game in the Valve demo is so much fun though. I wish they turned that into a full blown game with levels and more enemies. I think I played that game for over an hour straight and the headset itself for 5 hours the day I got it.

Just a thought have you tried Ginger for the sickness?

Stupid as it sounds a few Ginger biscuits before playing helped me feel better ;)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: CoryBee on May 13, 2017, 03:11:38 pm
I had Ginger chews and ginger drinks on the ready wen it came :D

THing that helps the most I have found is Dramamine, motion sickness stuff you can get at walgreens/cvs.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ChadTower on May 15, 2017, 09:52:32 am



On saturday I spent about an hour with Resident Evil 7 VR.  Last RE game I put real time into was RE4 and the first hour does feel a lot like that.  It's using the controller, not the Move controller, and the resolution is lower than the first party VR apps.  That said, it's fully immmersive.  I'm looking forward to more time with it.  The jump scares so far are too telegraphed but that's not because of the VR.  That's just the game design.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on May 15, 2017, 11:57:23 pm
I can't believe Resident Evil 7 is on steam but does not support Vive or Rift. Ya they can make it exclusive to the Playstation but if not why just take out VR support... like I am not going to buy a Playstation and a Playstation VR just for this game, no one would so what the actual fu#k is the point.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 16, 2017, 09:53:29 am
I can't believe Resident Evil 7 is on steam but does not support Vive or Rift. Ya they can make it exclusive to the Playstation but if not why just take out VR support... like I am not going to buy a Playstation and a Playstation VR just for this game, no one would so what the actual fu#k is the point.

My guess is that Sony paid big money for the VR exclusive, at least for now, to help move the headsets.  There have been over 50 million PS4s sold, so that's an awful lot of potential customers who don't need to purchase that piece of the equation.

I don't have the headset yet, but it is moving through the mail now.  I already bought Battlezone, for less than half of the list price, during the last flash sale.  Seemed like a good first title for me.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ChadTower on May 16, 2017, 10:19:19 am



Also probably why it doesn't require the Move controllers.  There is a lot of finding objects and using the sticks to rotate and examine them.  That would be a perfect application for the Move controllers and VR controls.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 16, 2017, 11:16:29 am
Also probably why it doesn't require the Move controllers.  There is a lot of finding objects and using the sticks to rotate and examine them.  That would be a perfect application for the Move controllers and VR controls.

I wonder if this is some strategy by Sony to get headsets in the hands of players, for incremental upgrades down the road.  Kind of a hardware "DLC" marketing strategy, if you will.  The Move controllers are very dated, but they have the benefit of current existence.  It wouldn't surprise me if Sony already has better controllers on a drawing board somewhere, waiting to see how the adoption rate of the headset goes.     
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ChadTower on May 16, 2017, 11:58:46 am



They do fit into the camera scheme well.  I've had issues with them but it's more about the batteries than the controls themselves.  When the batteries get weak they reset themselves a lot.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on May 16, 2017, 01:19:08 pm
They have already made a new gun controller thats releasing with farpoint so they are working on it.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ChadTower on May 16, 2017, 01:27:26 pm



The Move controllers work decently as a gun.  I don't see how it would work other than being shaped like a gun with a Move knob on it.

Title: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on May 16, 2017, 02:12:20 pm
I has a analogue sticks on it so you can navigate FPS's etc.

https://youtu.be/6Jv3VGfzpM8
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: CoryBee on May 16, 2017, 03:22:34 pm
 :cheers:
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on May 17, 2017, 08:05:32 pm
Quote
My guess is that Sony paid big money for the VR exclusive, at least for now, to help move the headsets.  There have been over 50 million PS4s sold, so that's an awful lot of potential customers who don't need to purchase that piece of the equation.

I don't have the headset yet, but it is moving through the mail now.  I already bought Battlezone, for less than half of the list price, during the last flash sale.  Seemed like a good first title for me

I thought I told you not to buy one; Reverse psychology?
I played Battlezone last night than I refunded it after 30 minutes; game looked to flat and played to stiff, plus getting me sick from the free movement, ow well on to the next game.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on May 18, 2017, 01:42:28 pm
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170518/f5d56e73976ba5202a99e696631ad2c7.jpg)

Had this show up tonight.
Ile let yall know what its like once ive had a go.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 18, 2017, 02:00:41 pm
I thought I told you not to buy one; Reverse psychology?
I played Battlezone last night than I refunded it after 30 minutes; game looked to flat and played to stiff, plus getting me sick from the free movement, ow well on to the next game.

No.  I got it for half of the going price on a used unit, by taking a chance on a new seller.  It's all I was willing to do, and honestly, I think the PSVR has the best chance of getting good support.  Hope the lenses aren't scratched or something. :)

I'm an arcade buff, and the "Classic mode" seemed like a nice bonus.  I hear folks talking about the 80's "dream of being in the game".  Well there's your chance to be "in" Battlezone.  And I don't get motion sickness. :)

Had this show up tonight.
Ile let yall know what its like once ive had a go.

I almost pulled the trigger on that myself, but figured I'd wait to make sure the unit is working well first.  I think the extra for the gun will be money well-spent, as I expect this to be used in future titles of that genre.
Interested to hear what you think about it.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on May 18, 2017, 02:06:14 pm

Had this show up tonight.
Ile let yall know what its like once ive had a go.

I almost pulled the trigger on that myself, but figured I'd wait to make sure the unit is working well first.  I think the extra for the gun will be money well-spent, as I expect this to be used in future titles of that genre.
Interested to hear what you think about it.

Me to, I expect the cost of the controller on its own to exceed the value of it compared to the bundle (as is usually the way with Sony stuff) and yes they are already making more compatible titles which I am looking forward to!

I have always been a huge light gun game fan so to combine Light guns, FPS and VR...

Well I had to have it LOL
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Howard_Casto on May 18, 2017, 02:46:17 pm
So Sony's solution to the VR motion control problem is the rip-off the Wii zapper?  LOL.  The whole issue with the zapper (and it's ps3 knockoff) was that it was never quite 1 to 1, so you had to look at the screen and re-calibrate based on where the gun really is.  Since you can't see where the gun really is, I can see this as a problem. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on May 18, 2017, 04:23:00 pm
So Sony's solution to the VR motion control problem is the rip-off the Wii zapper?  LOL.  The whole issue with the zapper (and it's ps3 knockoff) was that it was never quite 1 to 1, so you had to look at the screen and re-calibrate based on where the gun really is.  Since you can't see where the gun really is, I can see this as a problem.

Not used it yet but I have used motion controllers on Rush of Blood (which is basically the same in terms of tracking)
And they worked fine.

The only time I had calibration issues is when I cocked up and hid the light sphere by doing something daft lol
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 19, 2017, 03:21:43 am
So Sony's solution to the VR motion control problem is the rip-off the Wii zapper?  LOL.  The whole issue with the zapper (and it's ps3 knockoff) was that it was never quite 1 to 1, so you had to look at the screen and re-calibrate based on where the gun really is.  Since you can't see where the gun really is, I can see this as a problem.

This is a whole different type of use for this similar, but definitely not the same, technology.  There is no "screen" to lose calibration to.  The visual display and the gun position, are being tracked by a front camera.  If the software is well written, it can position the virtual gun relative to the display.  Also, since you can't see the real gun you are holding, so long as you feel like your actions are reflected reasonably well in virtual space, it should be able to deliver the desired effect of being able to aim down the sights and hit what you are shooting at.

In other words, no calibration should be necessary, 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on May 19, 2017, 05:17:03 am
You do calibrate in a fashion but its more of a calibration of the gun to you than the gun to the TV/Sensor.

Rush of blood asks you to hold the guns and shoot at the start.
You cant loose calibration of the guns themselves but if you hide the sphere like I did the once it can knock your on screen sights out if that makes sense.

Like I said some posts back though I felt the movement between my hands and aim was good
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 19, 2017, 10:46:32 am
You do calibrate in a fashion but its more of a calibration of the gun to you than the gun to the TV/Sensor.

I guess that would make sense.  Everyone is different with regard to distance between waist and eye, just like different IPDs.  Does that become part of your stored profile, or is that strictly an in-game thing?
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on May 19, 2017, 10:47:25 am
You do calibrate in a fashion but its more of a calibration of the gun to you than the gun to the TV/Sensor.

I guess that would make sense.  Everyone is different with regard to distance between waist and eye, just like different IPDs.  Does that become part of your stored profile, or is that an in-game thing?

Its a in game thing but literally takes 2 seconds.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 19, 2017, 01:15:32 pm
How have you not played with the Aim controller yet????  :lol
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on May 19, 2017, 02:05:52 pm
How have you not played with the Aim controller yet????  :lol

Yup Just finished a hour and a half session with it ;)
Only reason I stopped was because of a call of nature haha!

Ok so here is my run down on this:

Its ---smurfing--- awesome!

I could leave it at that but I will elaborate.

The aim controller works really well, flawlessly in fact. I did not have to calibrate it, But the game did ask me how tall I was and to move my camera as its meant to be played standing.
I took the lazy option and remained seated LOL
It feels and points really good and was always pointing and moving the way I was so yeah 10/10 for the controller well worth the money.

The game arghh if there is a game to try PSVR on its gota be this!
Its lived up to my expectations (of the PSVR not VR in general thats got a long way to go before we are on the holo deck lol)

So yeah it plays like a FPS in VR should imo.
You use one stick to move forward/back and strafe.
My only complaint about the game (which is a silly thing) is that the 2nd stick is not enabled to turn you by default. It was only after the 2nd level I figured out you could enable it in the options which made the game play so much smoother and allowed to to make quicker turns etc.

Its a slow starter but once it starts it picks up pace fast. The game has been designed cleverly as well and made good use of light and dark to fool you into seeing things.
Which makes the enemy AI seem clever as they use this to full advantage by distracting you and the little buggers sneaking up on you!
There have been several occurrences of me hearing something, turning my head and damn near shitting myself because I had not seen something.
Also got my heart racing!

Erm it plays well, has a co-op (not tried yet but i want to) and yeah so far I am really enjoying it.

I have also been pleasantly surprised that I have not had any motion sickness, not sure if thats me getting used to VR now or the game design.

Graphically its nicely done as well.

So yeah go out and buy the bundle Randy before the controller is like £60 on its own lol
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 19, 2017, 02:12:14 pm
Headset arrives tomorrow....If it's not beaten to death, I'll be picking up the bundle.  Thanks for the review (and being the guinea pig :) )
 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on May 19, 2017, 02:18:14 pm
Headset arrives tomorrow....If it's not beaten to death, I'll be picking up the bundle.  Thanks for the review (and being the guinea pig :) )
 

No problem LOL

Rush of blood was fun but its not a patch on this.
Farpoint really is something else and I think its set the bar for things to come.

Just one other negative (again minor) some of the cinematics seem a little odd in terms of the POV they are shot from.
Like one I seemed to be looking from the prospective of something on the floor.
Not sure if it was meant to be like a fallen down web cam or something as it was after a crash.

Who knows lol

Like I said silly really :p
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 19, 2017, 03:22:31 pm
Just one other negative (again minor) some of the cinematics seem a little odd in terms of the POV they are shot from.
Like one I seemed to be looking from the prospective of something on the floor.
Not sure if it was meant to be like a fallen down web cam or something as it was after a crash.

Who knows lol

Like I said silly really :p

I've seen some 360 videos shot this way too.  I think some of it is done to show some of the gimmicky capabilities of VR, like being a bug or something.  To me, it feels like being beneath the floor with just your head poking out.

Maybe it was supposed to infer that you fell on the floor from the crash, and decided to lay there for a while and watch :)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on May 19, 2017, 06:21:19 pm
https://blog.vive.com/us/2017/05/17/vive-standalone-headsets-for-google-daydream/

Standalone Vive, no computer needed.. Might bridge the gap from the cardboard VR to a full blown Vive..
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on May 19, 2017, 06:55:01 pm
Quote
https://blog.vive.com/us/2017/05/17/vive-standalone-headsets-for-google-daydream/

Standalone Vive, no computer needed.. Might bridge the gap from the cardboard VR to a full blown Vive..

So basically a phone built in and covered up… There delux headstrap for the Vive has taken 6 months after they showed it and still has not come out

The next step will be wireless but when they decide to introduce 4k headsets than wireless will no longer work again so that is a whole thing.

I am calling stupid on that either it is cheap with low processing power taking a step back from the VR we have today or expensive and just barely match the VR we have today with no upgrade-ability.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on May 19, 2017, 07:10:38 pm
So basically a phone built in and covered up…

The nice thing about standalone is they aren't slaves to a phone's existing form factor.  They are free to use independent screens designed for VR, and tracking and processing specifically optimized for the same.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on May 19, 2017, 07:12:04 pm
Hang the wire from the ceiling if you want 360 play. I was able to get my
Vive and Rift 2 players at the same time dungon crawling in RecRoom playing on the same machine, without running into each other using motion stools or getting in the way of each other's sensors.

I have a second gaming PC if more headsets come out I am going to try to get a 3 or even 4 player team all at the same time.


(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb451/zork2001/2017-05-06%2017.07.58_zpse58uoybo.jpg) (http://s1206.photobucket.com/user/zork2001/media/2017-05-06%2017.07.58_zpse58uoybo.jpg.html)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on May 19, 2017, 07:28:29 pm
Quote
The nice thing about standalone is they aren't slaves to a phone's existing form factor.  They are free to use independent screens designed for VR, and tracking and processing specifically optimized for the same.

thats true but there is still only so much they can do with the on board battery and processing power. Shoot we are complaining because they are still to heavy now. That solves witless but adds more problems. I think it is still to early maybe in another 5 years it might all get small thin and light enough but right now it is not going to appeal to people that are already into VR.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: jtslade on May 19, 2017, 08:08:40 pm
Randy playing Dirt Rally with a good wheel, shifter and pedals on a HTC Vive is freaking amazing. I got a copy cheap in a humble bundle and used my Logitech G25. Did a section from Rally Deutschland that I have been to IRL and it was really incredible.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on May 20, 2017, 03:20:18 am
Just read these articles:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.playstationlifestyle.net/2017/02/27/psvr-sales-now-900k-sold/amp/

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.playstationlifestyle.net/2016/08/13/doom-vr-could-get-psvr-support/amp/

Good news for PSVR and I guess VR in general.
Plus DOOM fans like me :)

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on May 21, 2017, 03:57:28 pm
My son came by the office Friday afternoon and was telling me that his cousin got a PSVR.  He said it was pretty unimpressive after playing on the Vive, although his cousin thought it was pretty amazing.  Made him sick pretty fast, and he figured it was the tracking being a bit slow.  He played the vive for hours without a problem.  I thought it was interesting because he just brought it up out of the blue. 

I can see standalone being pretty awesome.  The weight of the vive is not a big deal, it is the weight balance that is the problem.  Besides, the majority of weight in a standalone unit is always going to be the battery.  Frankly I would live with some extra weight if it means having a 8-10k mAh battery for several hours of use on a charge.  Put that heavy battery on the back of the head along with the processing and you have a balanced headset that is far more comfortable.

It's anyone's guess if the standalone will utilize lighthouses still.  Personally I would prefer it, given how much better tracking is vs a phone or even psvr.  I think some kind of reference tracking to the real world is critical to prevent motion sickness.  The first thing I was impressed with on the Vive was how well it tracked my motion.  That blew me away more than any other aspect of it.

Biggest problem I see with a standalone is the ability to process high res video at 90fps+ with an android processor.  Perhaps they have figured that out but I am cautiously optimistic about it. 

I am considering picking up some flash stands so I can set up the Vive in my apartment.  I have the room if I move the dining table to the side, but I'm not sure it is worth the effort as I am traveling so much lately and playing games at home is low on the priority list. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 22, 2017, 12:34:56 pm
I think we are seeing the market shifting, as I expected it would.  The $1500 cost of entry is a no brainer when it comes to barriers for mass market adoption.  HTC sees that PSVR has a distinct advantage, with it's huge installed platform user-base numbers.  The current flagship phones (and phone-oriented hardware) are moving toward faster sensor pipelines and OLED screens, and Google is pushing to be a big player in the market, by offering a unified development package for yet another platform with massive numbers of current users.  HTC would be stupid to ignore these facts.  High-end VR will continue on, but will be relegated to smaller numbers of users, just as enthusiast-level graphics cards are now.  Support for the higher end may suffer a bit, as the market shifts more toward the center, but I don't see it going anywhere.

My PSVR and Move controllers arrived.  There are a couple scratches in the AR coating on one of the lenses, but it doesn't appear to affect anything.  Outside of that, I got a great deal on the hardware.  Sony did a very good job with the design of this unit, but they dropped the ball by not having some means to adjust the focus for each eye independently.  They say glasses are ok inside the unit, but I can feel the contact between the lenses, and I won't use them that way.  Spacers might work, but will create gaps, letting more outside light in, and increasing the "tunnel-view" effect.  From my experience, the lenses should be so close to your eyes that your eyelashes nearly brush the lenses every time you blink.  The removable, thin rubber surround is great.  You never really feel like the unit is mashed onto your face, which is huge where comfort is concerned.  It's also easy to remove and clean.  The unit is also well balanced, and very light.

On the performance side, I'm impressed, but at the same time, a little disappointed.  The resolution is pretty poor, and from what I gather, this is common to all of the units available, even the expensive ones.  It's lower than the Vive, but the difference, at least on paper, is small.  The PSVR may actually have an advantage, due to having no real "screen-door" effect, but it has it's own visual issues, namely what I know as a "linen" effect.  It's like looking though extremely sheer fabric.  Bright scenes seem to lose a bit of contrast, and instead of seeing pixelated images, things tend to appear very soft.  It's particularly noticeable at distance.  It's like everyone entering the realm of VR suddenly becomes mildly near-sighted :), and the linen-effect is always there, which affects the immersion factor.  Color rendition is very nice.  The brightness can easily be set to a third of what the unit is cable of, and still be plenty bright and vibrant.

The tracking works well, but is also not perfect.  Sony seems to be aware of  this, as they have made it very easy to re-center the view.  Not sure what the technical reasons are for this, but it seems to lose it's place when moving outside the view of the camera.  But it still works, and works well.  Error tends to be small, and I haven't really found the need to re-center during gameplay.  I think positioning of the camera has an effect on accuracy, and probably works best when it's not a lot higher or lower than eye-height.  This is something I will be experimenting with.

On the software side, I've only played with a few things, so this part is of my thoughts is ongoing.  Battlezone, as indicated earlier, is a bit "flat".  The arenas are huge, and the resolution limitations come into play.  The cockpit and close-by objects are rendered nicely, but much of this game takes place at long distances, where visual acuity drops off significantly, unless the targets are very large.  In my opinion, this type of title is not well suited to the current state of display technology.  The free "The Kitchen" demo from RE7, was interesting, and definitely creepy.
 The Playroom VR, on the other hand, is nothing short of amazing. Japan Studio show that they really understand how to use the capabilities of the PSVR to advantage, and the execution of the mini-games is nearly flawless.  The games are fun, and off-the-charts cute.  So much so, I can see hardcore Nintendo fans like Howard, grinning ear-to-ear from start to finish.  You really do feel like you are in the environment with, and not just watching, the crazy little robots, who react to you when you focus your attention to them.  The games take place in areas which are no larger than can be effectively utilized by the hardware, with the possible exception of the 3D platformer.  In this game, you can see a fair distance into the playing area, and the resolution becomes a limitation to the sense of immersion.  But in areas close-by, where the action is taking place, it works perfectly, and shows just how impressive and playable a 3D platformer can be with this technology.   

The experience inside the "Playroom" was the first time I really felt a disconnect from the outside world.  Specifically, while seated on a swivel chair in the real world, with the VR crane machine in front of me, I spun quickly to look more closely at one of the items in the room, and actually had the sense that I was going to bang my knee on the machine, as I was so close to it.  When it didn't happen, I felt my brain try to reconcile the reason why. :)  That one event was the signal that I had actually become immersed in the environment, and it was a powerful moment.

My conclusion is that the tech is definitely here to stay, but much will depend on developers' understanding of the limitations, and effectively using what they have to work with.  If the market gets flooded with "shovelware" it could take the tech down quickly, but unlike other previous tech, there is a lot more here to work with.  I already ordered the Farpoint bundle, and I think that will provide a better idea as to where things will be heading.  Those with a PS4 already, who have the money to spend or the opportunity to get a good deal on  the hardware, should definitely consider picking one up.  VR isn't going to be great until the resolution/processing/cost barriers start falling rapidly, but it does have quite a bit of potential in it's current state. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on May 22, 2017, 12:59:51 pm
Glad you have enjoyed the experience Randy!
Its like we have all said it is hard to appreciate it until you have tried it and had a positive experience!

Totally agree though the high end VR is never going to be a "thing" of success due to the cost.

I wouldn't drop several k into it at this point in time, But I am happy enough spending a few hundred for a good peripheral for something I already own.
Again I agree the resolution etc has a way to go but think we all knew that.
The thing is once you stop looking at it to nit pick and just play its not something you notice that much.

As for the camera and tracking I have found it best for the camera to be about head height or just slightly lower if possible.
Also it does not like harsh light shining on it so if you can close curtains and turn off lights this helps and gets rid of light creeping in ;)

Just my findings :)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on May 22, 2017, 10:35:13 pm
Quote
but much of this game takes place at long distances, where visual acuity drops off significantly, unless the targets are very large.  In my opinion, this type of title is not well suited to the current state of display technology.

I have not tried a PSVR but I had the DK2 and noticed from a distance everything would get pixelated. With the Vive and Rift that does not seem to be a problem anymore. Sounds like the PSVR lower resolution is actually an issue for games and not just a small complaint.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on May 23, 2017, 10:10:39 am
In the past, it was common for television retailers to display animated movies on their showroom floor over real film movies.  The animation will always look sharper and of course is usually more vibrant, making the display look better than it is.  When you play content that your brain knows exactly how it should look, you notice the flaws more readily.  This is particularly true in VR.  You spent your whole life knowing how the real world looks, so seeing it at a lower resolution than your eyes are capable of seeing is going to be immediately apparent.  But if you play a game in a fake world with oversaturated colors, simplified textures, and basic geometry, you stop looking at resolution and start seeing the world you are playing in.  This is going to be an issue until they can render even far distance graphics at 4k+ levels, which is a long way off.  To me, the content that highlights the shortcomings of VR resolution is any app where you are looking at a mountain range or anything in the distance.  You notice immediately how crappy it looks because you are trying to focus on tiny details in the distance.  But put yourself in a more closed environment like a forest, and keep your focus on something like the dinosaur you are hunting, or a zombie that is rushing through the brush at you, and you would have to work hard to notice the lower resolution.  When that zombie is eating your face, you don't see the pixels so much any more. 

Of course, the first thing you want to do when in VR is to travel somewhere in the world you have never been, or stand on a mountain top, or at the top of a tall building, and that just highlights the shortcomings of the tech.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 23, 2017, 10:46:05 am
I have not tried a PSVR but I had the DK2 and noticed from a distance everything would get pixelated. With the Vive and Rift that does not seem to be a problem anymore. Sounds like the PSVR lower resolution is actually an issue for games and not just a small complaint.

I've done a fair amount of research on this.  OLED screens don't work the same way as LCD.  Each pixel is made up of multiple RGB sub-pixels, much like a CRT.  Also like a CRT, each sub-pixel has it's own "personality".  VR use really requires pixels intended to be overlaid, to have the same brightness and color characteristics.  With larger objects, things average out and they appear detailed, with a bit of "mura" effect.  But smaller things tend to get "muddy".  Lost in the "noise", if you will.  Optics and processing power comes into play as well.  On the optics side, the PSVR uses glass lenses, whereas the others use plastic fresnels.  The PSVR doesn't get the "god rays" when bright objects appear on a dark background, but there is some chromatic aberration outside of the "sweet spot".  The net effect of the aberration is similar to RGB misalignment on a CRT.  Again, not really a problem for large objects, but smaller objects lose detail, as a greater percentage of the pixels comprising the object, are "noise".  Processing power comes into play where anti-aliasing is concerned, but given the nature of the OLED display, and the type of optics used, too much anti-aliasing may actually be doing more harm than good.  I have tried a number of the demos, and it's interesting how some titles appear sharp, while others are, to my eyes, a blurry mess (Drive Club VR is a prime example of this).  It may very well be that the harder they try to cram anti-aliased detail into the smaller pixel count, the worse things become.

I've also heard that there is something which the PSVR does to try to increase apparent resolution, through the manipulation of these sub-pixels.  If that's the case, it may be trading pixelation for "fuzz".  It may be something they can tweak down the road.

PSVR developers are still finding their footing with the technology and it's limitations, so it may just be something which improves over time.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on May 23, 2017, 11:40:11 am
MMMM you know I have always been wondering why they both went  with those fresnels that cause godrays when they did not have the issue with the DK2 to begin with,  but if they help battle being able to make out small things out in the center of your screens(basically what you are looking at and trying to focus on) it makes more sense why they went that way.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 23, 2017, 11:57:27 am
MMMM you know I have always been wondering why they both went  with those fresnels that cause godrays when they did not have the issue with the DK2 to begin with,  but if they help battle being able to make out small things out in the center of your screens(basically what you are looking at and trying to focus on) it makes more sense why they went that way.

I'm sure that's not the primary reason.  Fresnels are cheaper, lighter and smaller.  They also suffer from aberrations, just a different kind.  If you are looking directly at something, and the "sweet spot" is aligned correctly, there's no issue with glass lenses.  At that point, the display/processing limitations are what is seen.

I used to work in the optics industry, and I can tell you that the simple optical systems in these headsets will always have limitations.  More complex designs, with multiple lenses and filters, would do a lot better job.  But these systems would be larger, heavier and cost more to produce than what the whole headset currently sells for.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on May 23, 2017, 12:15:06 pm
I'd pay double to have glass lenses that matched my prescription.  It is one of the biggest limitations for me.  Glasses work fine, but I inevitably smudge them putting the headset on.  And the lenses in the headset are hard to keep clean enough not to have halos around bright images.  I worry that over time I will scratch or dull the plastic lenses trying to keep them clean.  A little sweat and some oily skin and it is a mess for optics...  And I would kill to have individual focus per lens as well. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on May 23, 2017, 12:33:09 pm
Processing power comes into play where anti-aliasing is concerned, but given the nature of the OLED display, and the type of optics used, too much anti-aliasing may actually be doing more harm than good.  I have tried a number of the demos, and it's interesting how some titles appear sharp, while others are, to my eyes, a blurry mess (Drive Club VR is a prime example of this).  It may very well be that the harder they try to cram anti-aliased detail into the smaller pixel count, the worse things become.

It's not just anti-aliasing, but the type of anti-aliasing that makes a big difference.  It's especially bad in Unreal engine games using temporal AA which can be blurry as hell.  OTOH, super-sampling can achieve the benefits of anti-aliasing, but retaining detail.  This is something I've noticed with the Vive and using SS is that its resolution is better than it appears at first glance.  A lot depends on the rendering engine and AA used.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on May 23, 2017, 12:46:32 pm
Quote
It's not just anti-aliasing, but the type of anti-aliasing that makes a big difference.  It's especially bad in Unreal engine games using temporal AA which can be blurry as hell.  OTOH, super-sampling can achieve the benefits of anti-aliasing, but retaining detail.  This is something I've noticed with the Vive and using SS is that its resolution is better than it appears at first glance.  A lot depends on the rendering engine and AA used.

Unreal Engine is pissing me off I am not sure if that anti-aliasing bug has been fixed now or not. Even a game like “I Expect you to Die” had no problem when they released a demo several years ago. You download the full game now off steam it has the anti-aliasing problem. It is irritating that these good games being ruined with this bug.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on May 23, 2017, 12:51:23 pm
Quote
I'd pay double to have glass lenses that matched my prescription.  It is one of the biggest limitations for me.  Glasses work fine, but I inevitably smudge them putting the headset on.  And the lenses in the headset are hard to keep clean enough not to have halos around bright images.  I worry that over time I will scratch or dull the plastic lenses trying to keep them clean.  A little sweat and some oily skin and it is a mess for optics...  And I would kill to have individual focus per lens as well. 

What prevents glasses users from getting lasic? If you need glasses in your VR device than you need schedule a consultation for lasic! I never heard anyone say they regret getting it done only that they wish they had done it sooner.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Howard_Casto on May 23, 2017, 01:15:27 pm
Eye surgery, any eye surgery, is dangerous.  Glasses aren't.  Also if you get lasic at an early age then look forward to getting it again.... and again.... and again because the surgery causes scars that thicken over time and ironically cause vision problems.  You also have a small risk of growing adhesions, which will essentially make you blind and result in even more frequent surgeries just to have poorer vision than when you started.  (See Kathy Griffin).  Even ignoring all of that, there are some people that just aren't viable candidates for the surgery due to any number of medical reasons. 

I how that educated you somewhat. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on May 23, 2017, 01:54:20 pm
you wont know any of that until you go in for a consultation's on your condition.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on May 23, 2017, 02:20:16 pm
Quote
I'd pay double to have glass lenses that matched my prescription.  It is one of the biggest limitations for me.  Glasses work fine, but I inevitably smudge them putting the headset on.  And the lenses in the headset are hard to keep clean enough not to have halos around bright images.  I worry that over time I will scratch or dull the plastic lenses trying to keep them clean.  A little sweat and some oily skin and it is a mess for optics...  And I would kill to have individual focus per lens as well. 

What prevents glasses users from getting lasic? If you need glasses in your VR device than you need schedule a consultation for lasic! I never heard anyone say they regret getting it done only that they wish they had done it sooner.
I can't do Lasik, but I can do PRK, which for me is $6k and I am at the outer limit of what they can do (they can go to +3, I am at +3.25 in one eye), so they can't completely correct one eye.  I would still need to wear glasses every day though, because even with contacts in I can't see stuff close, and I have no desire to have one reader eye and one distance eye.  I wear contacts and glasses now.  That way I can wear regular sunglasses outside as long as I don't need to look at my phone or read anything under 4 feet away.

That being said, yeah, I am considering doing it even though my doctor says it is a waste of money.  Not having to put in contacts every morning would be worth it eventually.

I have used the Vive without my readers, and it works OK, just not perfect.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on May 23, 2017, 02:26:08 pm
I've had one eye surgery already (when I was 13) but not on the lenses.  I got a sliver of metal in one eye about 15 years ago, and the result is a scar that makes regular lasik too difficult, so they would do PRK instead, which takes several weeks to heal and during healing you go from your old vision to the corrected vision, which would make my work difficult, and I can't take 4 weeks off to heal.

Otherwise I am only mildly worried about the chance of a problem.  I do fear being blind, but it is extremely rare when using competent doctors.  If I had like -1 vision and could do the $200 lasik with a coupon, THAT would give me more pause than doing a full on PRK at the limits of what they can correct.  You don't have many hacks doing $6k surgeries, but those $100 per eye laser surgeries are being done by "technicians" with sometimes zero experience.  No thanks.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on May 23, 2017, 02:38:20 pm
I dont have great eyesight.
But luckily mine is easily corrected with glasses or contacts.

I can wear my glasses ok using the PSVR but not for long periods.
I find it gets a bit uncomfortable and sometimes steams up on long periods.

Contacts on the other hand are great!

But I am a little odd and only wear one contact LOL
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 23, 2017, 03:21:50 pm
It's not just anti-aliasing, but the type of anti-aliasing that makes a big difference.  It's especially bad in Unreal engine games using temporal AA which can be blurry as hell.  OTOH, super-sampling can achieve the benefits of anti-aliasing, but retaining detail.  This is something I've noticed with the Vive and using SS is that its resolution is better than it appears at first glance.  A lot depends on the rendering engine and AA used.

Yeah, that's where the processing power enters the picture.  From what I gather, the PS4 Pro delivers a marginally better image, most likely due to super-sampling.  But it's not that much better to warrant buying one, at least not yet.  Hopefully someone figures out an algorithm to do a better job specifically for lower resolution VR applications.  Everything is currently geared toward high resolution 2D, and what is best for one, probably isn't for the other.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 24, 2017, 12:41:27 pm
Farpoint:  I don't know what to say......  If anything will help sell PSVR, this will be it.  Probably why it's such a good deal for the gun bundle right now.  I only gave it an hour so far, but if this is a typical debut title, I can't wait to see where things go in the future.

Everything I have tried so far, pales in comparison.  I shoot real guns, and shooting in this game feels so natural and accurate, that I never felt like the game was limiting my abilities in any way. The game seems always to be fine-tuning the gun position to the player to make sure it never strays.  Even when you move it out of camera view, it very quickly finds it's way back to where you expect it to be.

The visuals are great, even though they are last-gen looking.  The studio did very well with the environment.  Large rocky landscapes in wide open areas, and controlled view distances in areas with more detailed surroundings, go a long way in masking the resolution shortcomings.   I wasn't nearly as bothered by it, as with other titles.  The sense of immersion is really good in this one, so that helps as well.

If you own a PSVR and you haven't picked this bundle up yet, you haven't seen the kind of experience it can deliver.  I am now a believer (but I still won't spend $1500 on dedicated rig :) )    I'm really hoping we see House of the Dead Eleventy in VR, using the PSVR Aim controller!
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on May 24, 2017, 02:21:50 pm
PSVR down to $340 today via NewEgg.  Got the wallet twitching.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on May 24, 2017, 03:08:05 pm
Farpoint:  I don't know what to say......  If anything will help sell PSVR, this will be it.  Probably why it's such a good deal for the gun bundle right now.  I only gave it an hour so far, but if this is a typical debut title, I can't wait to see where things go in the future.

Everything I have tried so far, pales in comparison.  I shoot real guns, and shooting in this game feels so natural and accurate, that I never felt like the game was limiting my abilities in any way. The game seems always to be fine-tuning the gun position to the player to make sure it never strays.  Even when you move it out of camera view, it very quickly finds it's way back to where you expect it to be.

The visuals are great, even though they are last-gen looking.  The studio did very well with the environment.  Large rocky landscapes in wide open areas, and controlled view distances in areas with more detailed surroundings, go a long way in masking the resolution shortcomings.   I wasn't nearly as bothered by it, as with other titles.  The sense of immersion is really good in this one, so that helps as well.

If you own a PSVR and you haven't picked this bundle up yet, you haven't seen the kind of experience it can deliver.  I am now a believer (but I still won't spend $1500 on dedicated rig :) )    I'm really hoping we see House of the Dead Eleventy in VR, using the PSVR Aim controller!


(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170524/95da63588e01b6b26e76f0a7dd997ee3.jpeg)

Do it PBJ....

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170524/b17bc17dd4ad81a64c3672ad70da84b0.png)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ChadTower on May 24, 2017, 03:47:45 pm
(See Kathy Griffin)




This is a pretty strong point against having one's vision improved.  I don't want to see her more clearly.




FWIW, one drawback on the PSVR is the rubber hood that blocks out external light.  If you seal it up well enough the damn lenses fog up quickly.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on May 24, 2017, 04:20:54 pm
(See Kathy Griffin)




This is a pretty strong point against having one's vision improved.  I don't want to see her more clearly.




FWIW, one drawback on the PSVR is the rubber hood that blocks out external light.  If you seal it up well enough the damn lenses fog up quickly.

Cant say I have ever been able to seal it up that close to my face LOL
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on May 24, 2017, 04:23:13 pm
Quote
This is a pretty strong point against having one's vision improved.  I don't want to see her more clearly.


FWIW, one drawback on the PSVR is the rubber hood that blocks out external light.  If you seal it up well enough the damn lenses fog up quickly.

Dk2 would always be fogging up in me, I have never had any fog issues with the rift and vive, wonder if is a plus side to the Fresnels.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on May 24, 2017, 09:40:20 pm
Dk2 would always be fogging up in me, I have never had any fog issues with the rift and vive, wonder if is a plus side to the Fresnels.
Maybe the open cell foam helps too..
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ChadTower on May 25, 2017, 09:58:31 am



Yeah, the PSVR hood is straight rubber.  Your eyes give off moisture, of course, and if you're in a bright room you need to seal it against your face almost like a diving mask.  For me at times the lenses can begin to fog up in minutes.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 25, 2017, 12:27:05 pm
Yeah, the PSVR hood is straight rubber.  Your eyes give off moisture, of course, and if you're in a bright room you need to seal it against your face almost like a diving mask.  For me at times the lenses can begin to fog up in minutes.

Interesting.  After many hours using the PSVR, I can truthfully say that I have never experienced any sort of "fogging".  I'm going to guess that the environment may have something to do with it, or maybe even an individuals facial structure.  Whether you breath primarily from your nose or mouth might also have something to do with it.  What we are talking about is condensation, and that usually require the lenses to be colder than the moisture containing air moving across them. If you are in an AC environment, and the unit is cold, I can see where you might run into this.  I'd also expect it to improve when the unit warms up.  Fresnels would still be susceptible, but given their lower mass, they probably acclimate quicker to temperature.

I don't normally have a perfect seal with the surround.  It's extremely close though, and a little bit of air is probably a good thing.  A darkened room helps the tracking, and keeps tiny gaps from being a distraction.

One thing I have come to realize is that VR is a workout.  Before I went to bed, I gave Farpoint another run, and given that I was l already tired, a half-hour was all I could muster.  Just standing with your arms extended, and twisting your body, can get pretty tiring.  I see people complaining about the gun design, but I'm happy that there isn't an extra bit of unnecessary weight on this thing :). 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on May 25, 2017, 12:37:24 pm
Whats suposed to be the matter with the gun?
Feels great to me for a game controller.
And like you I shoot real guns lol

As for the fogging again never had that issue with the VR but I have had my glasses fog while wearing it.

Bit of a gap and dark room and you shouldn't have any problems.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 25, 2017, 12:44:50 pm
Whats suposed to be the matter with the gun?
Feels great to me for a game controller.
And like you I shoot real guns lol

It's mostly commentary from those who haven't used it.  It doesn't look like a gun, and they aren't getting the "masculinity" boost they seem to be looking for when they hold it.  :lol
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on May 25, 2017, 12:46:04 pm
Who cares what it looks like when you cant see it!? LOL

Dummys....
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on May 25, 2017, 01:16:38 pm
It's like people expect their VR gun props to be like this or something...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CpqpcmiXYAA-juP.jpg)

 ;D

https://uploadvr.com/serious-sam-vr-croteam-minigun/
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on May 25, 2017, 02:24:54 pm
Hollowpoint has been the only VR game I feel compelled to raise my heard rate. You are shooting targets in a 360 arena with a bow that you have to pull back, when you hit your target it explodes shooting a bullet at you that you have to dodge with your head. So you are jumping around in circles pulling your arm frantically in a bow motion dodging projectiles… if you want to build your VR stamina half an hour a day for a few weeks and every other game will feel like a joke.
I don’t think it would work with the psvr since you need a 360 setup though.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ChadTower on May 25, 2017, 09:20:41 pm
Interesting.  After many hours using the PSVR, I can truthfully say that I have never experienced any sort of "fogging".  I'm going to guess that the environment may have something to do with it, or maybe even an individuals facial structure.  Whether you breath primarily from your nose or mouth might also have something to do with it. 




Definitely has nothing to do with breathing as neither nose nor mouth are inside the seal.  This is a humid environment, though, and I do sweat more than average.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 26, 2017, 10:29:12 am
Definitely has nothing to do with breathing as neither nose nor mouth are inside the seal.

I mentioned that only due to the nature of the nose seal on the PSVR.  At least for me, the split nose flap arrangement never seals completely.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on June 05, 2017, 03:27:39 pm

So, yesterday I put the PSVR on my buddy and set him up with the Move controllers and Rush of Blood.  It was the funniest thing I have seen in quite a while :).  He's a mostly technologically challenged 50-something, and definitely not a "gamer", but he was having a great time and did very well with the controls.  He jumped like crazy at the in-your-face scares, and was yelling obscenities.  I swore he would have ripped off the headset after the first one, but he didn't, and I had to pull him off of it at the end of level 3. :)

I got him to try Farpoint, but there are a lot of controls on the gun which aren't friendly to a non-gamer.  He thought it was really cool, but had trouble navigating everything.  His son, on the other hand, is a crack COD player, and picked up the controls quickly.  He had no problems shooting what he was aiming at and moving around, but I noticed he was having trouble shaking his normal habits of playing an FPS, where looking around is controlled by the thumbsticks.  So he ended up getting pounded by flying objects and attacks from the side.  Eventually, he started coming around to the requirement of "natural situational awareness", through head movements, and starting doing better.  By the time he got done, he asked if there were other games like Farpoint yet, and said he would start looking for deals on the units.

Both had a good time, and neither of them complained about anything other than the cost of entry :).

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ChadTower on June 05, 2017, 03:57:42 pm



And that's what I consider important.  I don't care about screen resolution and market share and all that other fantasy football stuff.  Is it fun?  Is it accessible?  Is there something for both the l33t gamer and the casual player?  That looks like a clear yes on that day.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on June 05, 2017, 05:58:32 pm
Ive had a few mates play far point lately and they both really enjoyed themselves.

Though the one did get motion sickness after a while LOL
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on June 06, 2017, 01:31:14 am
I was just able to model this desk and book, UV map it, create the cover in photoshop, texture it in substance painter, bring it into Unreal Engine and interact with it. VR is so cool....

Does anyone remember 1994 Game Under the Killing Moon, I want to recreate Tex Murphy's office from that game into VR. Should be a fun first project.

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV4xToHFbsI&feature=youtu.be#)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ChadTower on June 06, 2017, 09:04:09 am



Damn, and to think simple object 3D modeling was cmpsci grad level stuff when I was in college.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on June 12, 2017, 08:18:03 am
So... these were just officially posted:

! Doom 3 VFR (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYOasB6aI_A#)

! Fallout 4 VR (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jspdtha3t1k#)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on June 12, 2017, 11:25:14 am
So... these were just officially posted:

! Doom 3 VFR (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYOasB6aI_A#)

! Fallout 4 VR (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jspdtha3t1k#)

Get Doom on the PSVR my life long dream will be realised :)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on June 12, 2017, 02:38:42 pm
Doom is what kicked off first person gamming and then it was what kicked off VR. What cant Doom do... World peace? maybe.

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVDXXfbz3QE#)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on June 12, 2017, 04:14:22 pm
Doom is what kicked off first person gamming and then it was what kicked off VR. What cant Doom do... World peace? maybe.

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVDXXfbz3QE#)

Its also the game that first made me want to play a game in VR 20 something years ago!
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on June 12, 2017, 09:43:04 pm
Get Doom on the PSVR my life long dream will be realised :)

And you're also getting Skyrim  :o

Skyrim VR (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Ggl421myE&feature=youtu.be#)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on June 13, 2017, 01:45:47 am
Get Doom on the PSVR my life long dream will be realised :)

And you're also getting Skyrim  :o

Skyrim VR (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Ggl421myE&feature=youtu.be#)

Not bothered about that lol
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on June 13, 2017, 11:13:15 am
....no...more....skyrim......

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ChadTower on June 13, 2017, 12:25:53 pm



Speaking as a more or less Nintendo only gamer where modern consoles are concerned this stuff might be a compelling argument for the PS4/VR investment. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RayB on June 13, 2017, 01:17:17 pm
FALLLLLOOOOUUUUTTTT!!!!!

There's the killer app.
I'm in.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ChadTower on June 13, 2017, 05:57:15 pm



You already bought the thing weeks ago, I thought?
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on June 23, 2017, 11:07:31 am
Supposedly Wal-Mart is putting the PS4 VRs on clearance.... check your zip codes...

http://brickseek.com/walmart-inventory-checker/?sku=50851002 (http://brickseek.com/walmart-inventory-checker/?sku=50851002)

http://brickseek.com/walmart-inventory-checker/?sku=483107010 (http://brickseek.com/walmart-inventory-checker/?sku=483107010)

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Howard_Casto on June 23, 2017, 12:07:33 pm
They've knocked 100 bucks off of the one without the move controllers (Why do they even sell that?)  400 is still a bit pricey imho.  If they could manage to sell the whole kit, minus the ps4 for under 200 bucks I think they might have a real product.  Right now they just have something that would be more at home in a sharper image catalog than Walmart.  Understand that is an insult... if you want your gaming widget to sell well it needs the mouth breathers at your local Walmart to gobble it up. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ChadTower on June 23, 2017, 12:58:17 pm
They've knocked 100 bucks off of the one without the move controllers (Why do they even sell that?)




Not all games use the Move controllers and a lot of people already had Move controllers.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on June 27, 2017, 08:11:36 pm
Super Hot VR (http://store.steampowered.com/app/322500/SUPERHOT/) is on sale right now. Ive heard about the game but never actually played it. Now its on VR and I have to say its amazing.

If you ever wanted to be NEO in the Matrix this is the game.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on June 30, 2017, 11:43:50 am
were people asking for House Of The Dead In VR? It here and it is actually pretty fun.

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wthnx8RL77g#)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on June 30, 2017, 12:00:20 pm
were people asking for House Of The Dead In VR? It here and it is actually pretty fun.

Need on PSVR with AIM compatibility :)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ChadTower on June 30, 2017, 12:11:41 pm
were people asking for House Of The Dead In VR? It here and it is actually pretty fun.

Need on PSVR with AIM compatibility :)




So much this.   :cheers:
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on June 30, 2017, 12:21:16 pm
All the PSVR shovelware is on sale right now... feed from the trough.

 :cheers:
 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on June 30, 2017, 12:28:54 pm
Might have a looksy cheers pbj.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on July 03, 2017, 10:40:32 am
I finally found some time to try out the VR mode on Dirt Rally with my racing rig.  I don't think I'll look at other racing games the same again.  When combined with excellent FFB effects and graphics (which this title delivers), the VR adds an amazingly realistic element to racing.  For the first time, I could actually see and feel the contours of the road surface, and the feeling of actually being inside the car and having a physical presence on a track or dirt road somewhere else in the world, is nothing short of utterly convincing.  Only a motion platform added to this mix could make it any better, but I found that my brain started filling in even this missing aspect.

I'm starting to find that good VR experiences are easy to identify, and I can only describe it as a feeling one might have if teleportation were a reality.  Good ones deliver a feeling of disorientation from being somewhere a world away just moments before finding yourself back in your more familiar, and probably much more mundane surroundings.  It can be a little unsettling at times, and takes a few minutes to recover from after longer sessions.  But it's definitely a unique sensation to VR, unless you count anesthetics. :)   
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on July 03, 2017, 03:05:27 pm
Might have to check that out sometime Randy.

I have not played any raceing games in VR yet, But I do need to get a wheel and pedals first lol
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on July 03, 2017, 03:20:25 pm
I have not played any raceing games in VR yet, But I do need to get a wheel and pedals first lol

It's kind of "neat" with a controller, but it's definitely not comparable to the full setup.  The VR aspect is only half of the equation when it comes to racing games, as the physical cockpit goes quite a way on it's own, with regard to immersion levels.

If other racing titles start using Dirt Rally as a benchmark for VR implementation, there are some cool times ahead for that genre! :)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on July 03, 2017, 03:38:34 pm
I have not played any raceing games in VR yet, But I do need to get a wheel and pedals first lol

It's kind of "neat" with a controller, but it's definitely not comparable to the full setup.  The VR aspect is only half of the equation when it comes to to racing games, as the physical cockpit goes quite a way on it's own, with regard to immersion levels.

If other racing titles start using Dirt Rally as a benchmark for VR implementation, there are some cool times ahead for that genre! :)

Out of interest what wheel setup do you use with your PS4?

I need some inspiration LOL

If it works with PCto that would be a bonus ;)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on July 03, 2017, 07:17:47 pm
Out of interest what wheel setup do you use with your PS4?

I need some inspiration LOL

If it works with PCto that would be a bonus ;)

It's a Thrustmaster T500RS.  It lacks the PS button functionality on the PS4, but because Thrustmaster is "officially supported" by Sony, all of the PS4 racing games seem to work great with it.  It can also be had at a lower cost than the current gen wheels, and many prefer the T500RS over those offerings.  It also comes with some very nice metal pedals. It works with PS3, PS4 and PC.

The racing frame I use is the RaceRoom RR3055.  I'm very happy with it for the price.  I wanted portability (so I could wheel it out in front of my projection screen), so the whole thing is mounted to a custom platform with large locking casters and ground lighting effects  ;D
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on July 03, 2017, 07:19:37 pm
Cheers Randy,

Might have to buy one based on just the name
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on July 03, 2017, 10:34:43 pm
No pic = no racing rig

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on July 04, 2017, 11:45:01 pm
Lack or racing and really any good cock pit games is a bit surprising, maybe it is the time of motion controllers or nothing now. I really wanted a good Mec game. They had this Demo for the DK2 called Vox Machine which was exactly what I wanted for a Mec game, Mec felt like it had weight movement was good, firing lasers and missiles felt good and than they just went def mute on the game.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RayB on July 06, 2017, 01:59:08 pm
I have not played any raceing games in VR yet, But I do need to get a wheel and pedals first lol

It's kind of "neat" with a controller, but it's definitely not comparable to the full setup.  The VR aspect is only half of the equation when it comes to racing games, as the physical cockpit goes quite a way on it's own, with regard to immersion levels.

If other racing titles start using Dirt Rally as a benchmark for VR implementation, there are some cool times ahead for that genre! :)

Here you go: (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-MdaOhuMIi2I/UU8aYekI3bI/AAAAAAAABH0/DKgWMMw6HMY/s1600/034.JPG)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on July 06, 2017, 02:41:27 pm
LOL very cute :p
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on July 08, 2017, 04:18:02 pm
No pic = no racing rig

Just for you, pbj :)

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Samson on July 09, 2017, 11:09:52 pm
  Only a motion platform added to this mix could make it any better,

So, when does the fabricobbling start ? :)

 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: mimic on July 10, 2017, 08:23:25 am
Oculus Rift Summer Sale 6 weeks deal for "ONLY" $399!! I think the price says it all. There was never a better time to buy fully realized VR gear!
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on July 10, 2017, 09:41:39 am
I was going to say Oculus and touch for $399 I am almost thinking of buying a second one, oculus has gotten really good over the slow start of the year, I am using it pretty much full time over the Vive at this point.

https://www.oculus.com/blog/rift-touch-399-for-a-limited-time-summer-of-rifts-best-deal-yet/ (https://www.oculus.com/blog/rift-touch-399-for-a-limited-time-summer-of-rifts-best-deal-yet/)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: mimic on July 10, 2017, 09:50:35 am
I have pretty much stopped playing 2.5D games! Was just playing Arizona Sunshine The Horde mode. There is nothing more freaky than zombies rushing at me!
Just AWESOME!
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on July 10, 2017, 10:01:19 am
Was not really able to get into that one, but Drop Dead on the other hand really works for me using the oculus controllers, it really is the best of arcade shooters 2.0
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on July 10, 2017, 12:12:42 pm
If i still had a gaming pc I would buy one at that price!
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on July 10, 2017, 03:53:35 pm
watching some videos on Vives new motion controller that aparently they have been giving out to developers, so many things to buy so little time...  ;D

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wc8L9YkK8gQ&t=1036s#)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: mimic on July 10, 2017, 11:23:32 pm
I was going to say Oculus and touch for $399 I am almost thinking of buying a second one, oculus has gotten really good over the slow start of the year, I am using it pretty much full time over the Vive at this point.

https://www.oculus.com/blog/rift-touch-399-for-a-limited-time-summer-of-rifts-best-deal-yet/ (https://www.oculus.com/blog/rift-touch-399-for-a-limited-time-summer-of-rifts-best-deal-yet/)

So you've got both Headsets? Which one honestly you think is better and why? Considering tracking, controllers, visuals etc. I purchased Rift because that's all I was able to preview prior to purchase (They had it at BestBuy) plus it was JUST "discounted" (to $599)  plus I hated the doughnut look of the Vive controllers.   
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on July 11, 2017, 12:52:51 am
They both air quotes launched at the same time but vive was leaps ahead of oculus right out the door; oculus did not even get motion controllers until a year later. Once oculus got there motion controllers which did feel better than the vive they still had a lot or tracking problems which lasted for another 3 to 4 months where Vive again was perfect on tracking right at launch. Now that you can pretty much play any game on both headsets if you want, the tracking on oculus is %85 fixed, Oculus motion controllers feel way better than the Vive and the thumb stick is way better than that worthless trackpad, the Oculus headset is way more conferrable and lighter and a lot of other small convinces for oculus like you don’t have to power on your motion controls  you just pick them up and they are ready to go and when you put on your headset oculus home just comes up and goes away when you take it off instead of having to load steam VR and wait for everything to power on. Right at this moment Oculus is better

It looks like they will be playing leap frog because once I get the new head strap from vive which will hopefully make the headset not so top-heavy and that more functional motion controller and a few other innovations they are working on I might be going back to vive as the best experience.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on July 11, 2017, 08:25:30 am
the Oculus headset is way more conferrable and lighter

Reportedly the more recently manufactured Vives are 15% lighter, bringing them on par with the Rift for weight.

As for comfort, the one thing I've heard is the Rift doesn't play well with glasses.  It's the one thing that has kept me from buying one, especially having used the Vive and realizing I didn't have to compromise with my glasses to be in VR.

Quote
It looks like they will be playing leap frog because once I get the new head strap from vive which will hopefully make the headset not so top-heavy and that more functional motion controller and a few other innovations they are working on I might be going back to vive as the best experience.

IMHO, the next headset that looks like it could take the crown might be LG's.  Higher resolution than either the Rift/Vive, much better headset design, and likely could have the next version of Valve's lighthouse tracking.  I'm really hoping LG brings it to fruition and am eyeing it as my Vive replacement.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on July 11, 2017, 09:57:47 am
Amazon's throwing in a $100 gift card.  If I had the PC to run this, I'd bite...

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B071L1G57S/ (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B071L1G57S/)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ChadTower on July 11, 2017, 10:44:25 am



No actual offers with that bundle, though. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on July 11, 2017, 01:49:06 pm
I can confirm that this "rumor" has derailed a research study....

https://techcrunch.com/2017/06/26/apple-acquires-smi-eye-tracking-company/ (https://techcrunch.com/2017/06/26/apple-acquires-smi-eye-tracking-company/)

 :banghead:

Be interesting to see what Apple does with it.



Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on July 11, 2017, 02:07:17 pm
Intresting...
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Howard_Casto on July 11, 2017, 10:47:39 pm
I can confirm that this "rumor" has derailed a research study....

https://techcrunch.com/2017/06/26/apple-acquires-smi-eye-tracking-company/ (https://techcrunch.com/2017/06/26/apple-acquires-smi-eye-tracking-company/)

 :banghead:

Be interesting to see what Apple does with it.

House it in shiny white plastic, mark up the price to five times the norm and call it a day?
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on July 12, 2017, 09:25:00 am
That would be in the ballpark of a quarter mil.   :lol
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Howard_Casto on July 12, 2017, 02:17:08 pm
So their budget line then. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on July 13, 2017, 04:08:58 pm
I don’t think you people grasp how cool that Vive Knuckles Controller is though. Even 30 years ago it was always about getting your hands in VR with motion gloves… well motion gloves just are not going to work as a universal controller, what if you want to pull a trigger to fire a weapon, what if you want to pick up an item and fell like you are holding something, what if you need buttons for menus and tons of other functionality. These knuckle controllers are going to now give you both, a controller that you don’t actually hold onto because it is strapped on your hand and it is able to map out each individual finger like a glove but still gives you the joystick for all your functionality; that is true VR innovation right there.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on July 13, 2017, 04:31:14 pm
Well, got a hands on demo with a bleeding edge eye tracker.  You walk around and it records your field of vision and then what you're actually looking at.  Beams it wirelessly to a laptop in near realtime where it can be endlessly analyzed.  The footage was something out of a dystopian scifi movie.  The VR application is that they lower the resolution of areas you aren't actively looking at.  You dirty peasants will probably get to touch something at the consumer level in 10 years.



 :cheers:
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ark_ader on July 13, 2017, 06:19:03 pm
Well, got a hands on demo with a bleeding edge eye tracker.  You walk around and it records your field of vision and then what you're actually looking at.  Beams it wirelessly to a laptop in near realtime where it can be endlessly analyzed.  The footage was something out of a dystopian scifi movie.  The VR application is that they lower the resolution of areas you aren't actively looking at.  You dirty peasants will probably get to touch something at the consumer level in 10 years.



 :cheers:

I have been working with Tobii eye tracking hardware for a couple of years now, coupled with two Kinect 360 for head tracking, it is a great tool for software manipulation research and efficiency.  My current research for my doctorate is to go one step further than VR (which in its current form is helping) and be able to manipulate interfaces without physical interaction.  IF you are interested in this field, a good paper to start is: http://www.geo.uzh.ch/~sara/pubs/coltekin_cagis08.pdf (http://www.geo.uzh.ch/~sara/pubs/coltekin_cagis08.pdf)

Yet there is a race on to enable VR without the hardware.  Our current hardware is not up to the task, as it is too slow.  We need to have speeds as a fast as our cognitive prefetch which is Optical Computing.  It is fascinating reading. 

http://www.princeton.edu/~bshastri/files/Tait_Springer_Chapter_2014.pdf (http://www.princeton.edu/~bshastri/files/Tait_Springer_Chapter_2014.pdf)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on July 13, 2017, 08:41:16 pm
 :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:
Well, got a hands on demo with a bleeding edge eye tracker.  You walk around and it records your field of vision and then what you're actually looking at.  Beams it wirelessly to a laptop in near realtime where it can be endlessly analyzed.  The footage was something out of a dystopian scifi movie.  The VR application is that they lower the resolution of areas you aren't actively looking at.  You dirty peasants will probably get to touch something at the consumer level in 10 years.



 :cheers:
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on July 14, 2017, 09:49:52 am
I have been working with Tobii eye tracking hardware for a couple of years now, coupled with two Kinect 360 for head tracking, it is a great tool for software manipulation research and efficiency.

SMI was our first choice, but Apple.  Our applications would be entirely different.  We'll just have to wait and see what company is willing to negotiate.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on July 14, 2017, 12:14:32 pm
The VR application is that they lower the resolution of areas you aren't actively looking at.  You dirty peasants will probably get to touch something at the consumer level in 10 years.

Did you get to demo that feature?  The foveated rendering looks like a leap forward in reducing hardware requirements, but I'm wondering about the possible negative effects.  I.e. lag in full rendering of objects as a result of quick eye movements. 

BTW, I doubt that it will be very long before this gets incorporated, if it works well.  It's kind of a necessity to do something like this to make mobile VR truly viable.  Of course, technology costs and patents might still get in the way of widespread adoption.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on July 14, 2017, 12:26:14 pm
Nah, no interest in VR for our purposes.  Our demo was measuring the precision of the eye tracking against the established measurement systems.

Previously, I did some work with a quadriplegic scientist that used Second Life as a communications platform with disabled people but she doesn't have the funding to venture into this world.  (be thankful for your health, folks)

I just push paper, so I was mostly there to molest a $30,000 pair of sunglasses.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ark_ader on July 14, 2017, 02:55:33 pm
Our demo was measuring the precision of the eye tracking against the established measurement systems.

Biggest problem is the bandwidth from the receiver to the PC.  I started using the EyeTribe Tracker Pro, but the results were always mixed.  Luckily the Tobii uses a different algorithm and I got better results.  I tried to get a development unit from SMI, but I guess it is more who you know...  Lots of these companies will lend you the equipment for evaluation but have a sneaky discovery clause on your research.  Early days yet, but I think SMI future will see some bumpy roads ahead.
Title: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on July 15, 2017, 01:57:39 pm
Just thought ide leave this here ;)

Hope I get to play this one day!!

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/amp.timeinc.net/thedrive/watch-this/12492/new-virtual-reality-mario-kart-trailer-looks-like-a-crazy-good-time%3Fsource%3Ddam
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on July 17, 2017, 12:33:36 pm
Quote

Just thought ide leave this here ;)

Hope I get to play this one day!!

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/amp.timeinc.net/thedrive/watch-this/12492/new-virtual-reality-mario-kart-trailer-looks-like-a-crazy-good-time%3Fsource%3Ddam (https://www.google.co.uk/amp/amp.timeinc.net/thedrive/watch-this/12492/new-virtual-reality-mario-kart-trailer-looks-like-a-crazy-good-time%3Fsource%3Ddam)

Are we now pretending that VR motion like that is not going to get you sick. I now get brain strain just thinking about playing something like that in VR.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on July 17, 2017, 12:34:41 pm
Quote

Just thought ide leave this here ;)

Hope I get to play this one day!!

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/amp.timeinc.net/thedrive/watch-this/12492/new-virtual-reality-mario-kart-trailer-looks-like-a-crazy-good-time%3Fsource%3Ddam (https://www.google.co.uk/amp/amp.timeinc.net/thedrive/watch-this/12492/new-virtual-reality-mario-kart-trailer-looks-like-a-crazy-good-time%3Fsource%3Ddam)

Are we now pretending that VR motion like that is not going to get you sick. I now get brain strain just thinking about playing something like that in VR.

Think you slowly build up an immunity to it.
Atleast I seem to of.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on July 17, 2017, 01:41:01 pm
Are we now pretending that VR motion like that is not going to get you sick. I now get brain strain just thinking about playing something like that in VR.

I think they should forget trying to make carsick-friendly games.  How is something like this different from riding a motorcycle, rollercoaster, or any other comparable real-life activity.

In other words, if a game makes you feel like losing your lunch, adapt or play something else.  :P
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on July 17, 2017, 02:30:29 pm
Quote
I think they should forget trying to make carsick-friendly games.  How is something like this different from riding a motorcycle, rollercoaster, or any other comparable real-life activity.

In other words, if a game makes you feel like losing your lunch, adapt or play something else.  :P

I think it is bigger than that, putting aside that it is usually pay before you play getting sick in VR makes it so you don't want to play in VR anymore, it ruines it for everything so it is an important aspect that they make games that don't make 95% of people sick, throwing games out there that make 50% of people some kind of ill is just all around bad business.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RayB on July 17, 2017, 02:50:17 pm
I know people who complain playing Call of Duty on an Xbox makes them feel sick. What's your point? Kill off an industry to appease the weak-stomached?
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on July 17, 2017, 03:17:59 pm
I think it is bigger than that, putting aside that it is usually pay before you play getting sick in VR makes it so you don't want to play in VR anymore, it ruines it for everything so it is an important aspect that they make games that don't make 95% of people sick, throwing games out there that make 50% of people some kind of ill is just all around bad business.

Bad business is limiting good technology to experiences which are less than what they could be, for the sake of the minority.  Limiting locomotion in VR to "teleportation" is, for lack of a better word, daft.  So much energy is expended to create a realistic experience, just to find yourself "popping" from one place to the next.  Farpoint handled it pretty well, by including less realistic movement options for those who might have those issues.

For concepts where it's unavoidable, rather than throwing out the idea entirely, developers need only offer a free demo to let users decide for themselves if they can handle it.  If they buy the game after experiencing the demo, and proceed to throw up on their mom's sofa, it's on them :)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on July 17, 2017, 03:46:51 pm
Sure if they want to be all up front about it and opt out on potential sales from an already small market than that will be up to the developer. A lot of times they are not up front about it and you only know by looking at reviews, I am over it if there is something with the game that can get someone ill I want no part of it, just comes across to me as poor VR development.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on July 17, 2017, 04:03:30 pm
Never really understood why people hate teleportation so much, you can still free move if you have the space, don’t see how some awkward gliding movement with your joystick adds anything to the immersion experience. Just pretend you are night crawler from x-men.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ark_ader on July 17, 2017, 08:04:37 pm
I know people who complain playing Call of Duty on an Xbox makes them feel sick. What's your point? Kill off an industry to appease the weak-stomached?

Try playing anything on a console and a projector...eventually you will...:puke
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on July 17, 2017, 08:45:43 pm
Try playing anything on a console and a projector...eventually you will...:puke

Meh.  Never even felt queasy after many hours of COD on a projector.  Used to play that way exclusively, until I realized I was getting pwned due to display lag.

I could be wrong, but I think it's an issue most can overcome.  It's literally "all in your head", and the brain is remarkable in its ability to rewire itself and adapt.  But for it to do that, folks might have to subject themselves to some unpleasantness for a while.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on July 17, 2017, 10:03:02 pm
Never really understood why people hate teleportation so much, you can still free move if you have the space, don’t see how some awkward gliding movement with your joystick adds anything to the immersion experience. Just pretend you are night crawler from x-men.

Free movement in games can work well, but I find it needs to be methodically paced otherwise it can be too jarring.  Paranormal Activity and Onward are a couple examples of it being used to good effect.  They probably wouldn't play nearly as well with teleport mechanics.

Conversely a game like Twisted Arrow is designed with teleporation and is perfectly balanced around that mechanic.

It really comes down to the overall game design and how everything is designed around the movement mechanics.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on July 18, 2017, 10:45:31 am
Ya horror games are their own breed designed to make you feel  trapped and helpless with things around every corner ready to kill you, teleportation would not work in a horror game.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on July 18, 2017, 01:58:28 pm
Chair in a room and Emily wants to play both use teleportation and both scared the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- outta me. Just about every scary game Ive played has teleportation.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on July 18, 2017, 02:26:09 pm
You'd have to get a gun to my head to make me play something themed around Paranormal Activity.

All this technology.... you could be an eagle flying in the Grand Canyon or some ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---... and you people go straight to the jump scares.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on July 18, 2017, 03:07:08 pm

Just started playing RIGS Mechanized Combat League.  When it starts up, it has the "comfort settings" on, which basically goes to gradual tunnel vision whenever you move, and blanks the visor upon ejection.  My first thought was that I had better be able to turn that crap off...  Thankfully, you can.

It's a difficult game.  Lots of controls and a fair amount of strategy involved.  It'll be a while before I'm confident enough to venture online with it.  But it's one of the more polished titles I have experienced.  20 bucks is a good deal for this one, if you can catch it on sale, but not if you don't like free locomotion.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on July 18, 2017, 03:14:47 pm
I brought RIGS when I first got my VR set, yet to play it though!!

Really need to get round to that one....
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Howard_Casto on July 18, 2017, 03:22:21 pm
You'd have to get a gun to my head to make me play something themed around Paranormal Activity.

All this technology.... you could be an eagle flying in the Grand Canyon or some ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---... and you people go straight to the jump scares.

Yeah that's another problem with VR..... porting popular franchises over isn't going to cut it because without that level of separation most games would be terrifying in VR.  There's not nearly enough porn adoption either, because, let's face it, we all know why you dirty perverts bought those rigs.  ;)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on July 18, 2017, 03:28:41 pm
Yeah that's another problem with VR..... porting popular franchises over isn't going to cut it because without that level of separation most games would be terrifying in VR.

Terrifying = the Shark Encounter from VR Worlds.  Never swimming in the ocean again...
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on July 18, 2017, 05:19:42 pm
Yeah that's another problem with VR..... porting popular franchises over isn't going to cut it because without that level of separation most games would be terrifying in VR.

Terrifying = the Shark Encounter from VR Worlds.  Never swimming in the ocean again...

I really wish that same game was on the Vive, when I played it at my friends I was really impressed.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on July 20, 2017, 04:36:55 pm
Chair in a room and Emily wants to play both use teleportation and both scared the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- outta me. Just about every scary game Ive played has teleportation.

A Chair in a Room is an interesting one in that it started out as a true room-scale game (no artificial movement at all).  The entire game was designed around having a real 2.5x2.5m playspace.  The devs later added teleportation to accommodate those with smaller play spaces.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on July 20, 2017, 08:16:59 pm
did they also make it so you can continue were you last left off, it started me over so I just stooped playing it after the third time.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on July 20, 2017, 08:47:50 pm
did they also make it so you can continue were you last left off, it started me over so I just stooped playing it after the third time.

you should be able to select the chapter from the photos on the door when you first start.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on August 05, 2017, 12:25:51 am
I just finished watching a free 360 video on Oculus store called MiyUbi, you are a toy robot being turned on and off with a family in the 80’s. The 360 video was probably some of the best I have seen so far but what really blew me away was the positional sound; back in like 2011 when VR was first being talked about they would point to this youtube video called Virtual Barber Shop, if you put headphones on and sit back and listen you can pretty much follow him with your mind, you can tell what distance he is from you where he is standing in the room. They wanted to be able to get that into VR, watching MiyUbi that has finally been achieved it was almost perfect.



! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUDTlvagjJA#)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ark_ader on August 05, 2017, 05:05:52 am
Sams Club was selling that Samsung 360 camera for $199.

I can see myself mounting that to my mates black and white crown victoria and driving around all the gang banger crip neighborhoods at dusk banging out Kyper.  I was there two months ago and it was better than 5 years ago, but not as good as say 30 years ago..  :lol

That should make for a cool light gun game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yAse1tL-mk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yAse1tL-mk)

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on August 09, 2017, 06:27:57 pm
Aw man I just bit the bullet and bought Lone Echo last night, I did
not think it was going to be a kind of game I would like but it was
getting so many positive reviews and then Tested did a whole video on
it I had to try it.  the game looks , sounds and acts so
polished that I thought I was in the next generation of VR headsets.
It reminds me of Uncharted for the Ps3, you are just looking at it
thinking I did not even think that hardware was even cable of running
something like this..  I am looking at what games will look like in the
distant future..
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on August 09, 2017, 07:22:07 pm
Thanks for sharing, I wonder how well it runs with the revive plugin for the vive.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Loafmeister on August 10, 2017, 04:43:38 pm
Jesus H Chrisolopis!  I leave the thread for 3 months or so and it explodes?  Took me over an hour to catch up on everything!

I can't speak for PSVR as I didn't try it myself but although in some respects it's technically inferior, as usual software makes a difference and a few of these like RE7 and Farpoint are homeruns.  RE7 is coming to the PC I think in a few months (maybe Feb '18 at worse?) so I'll eventually see what the fuss is about but Farpoint ain't coming anytime soon so hopefully so me other company will create an awesome peripheral as that gun controller for the PC. The game I'm not so worried, lots of good titles out or in development.

Intent is not to rehash the arguments from May (yuck!) but felt the need to say that although I am a huge supported of VR (owned the DK2, have owned Vive and Rift since launch), VR will never, EVER be for everyone so it's moot to try and argue this point.  There are many people who despise having their visions blocked in anyway so for those people, until at the very least the form factor is akin to a pair of sunglasses, then I gather AR application will be as close as it gets. 

In saying that, most other limitations of the technology will eventually resolve itself.  The wireless Kit for the Vive (and soon Rift) has just gone through FCC approval so that will take care of itself soon (except for price).  Ability to see more detail is being resolved via foveated rendering (except for the price).  Additional tracking via the "PUCKS" that Steam is putting out is resolving leg tracking (except for the price).  better resolution headsets are coming via gen 2 or 3 to a quality that should match 4K monitors (might be pricey ;)).  Motion dizziness is real but strides have already been done in this area (90FPS/artificial locomotion) and it's nice that money isn't the solution here, expept to consider that you need high end to alleviate those cases where the tech is causing the issue (but it's not always the tech!).  Already compared to the DK1 and DK2, there are improvements to the form factor/size/weight/quality of lenses/etc but there is a lot more room for improvement.

Yes, the common denominator is that although everything is fixable (lots' of lessons learned this generation), price usually does sort itself out to some extent via time.  There are exceptions but the world is crazy that way. If 10 years ago you would have told me that people would spend $800 every 2 to 3 years on a new cell phone and there would be over a billion iphones alone (never mind the Android smartphone market which is I think larger? I would have said you are nuts considering the prices on these.  The money is there, if VR isn't massively adopted out of the gate, it's not because it's too expensive it's because it's footprint is presently too large.  I assure you if you could get the same vive/rift performance but in a wireless form-factor that resembles sunglasses, VR would be the next iphone.  I'm pretty sure Valve and Oculus know this, no doubt Sony does as well (not sure on HTC, really don't know if they grasp the tech behind what they build) and I am sure that's their end-game.  That might not be achievable for 10 years but you betcha there's a roadmap at Facebook and Valve that shows this

But it is what it is, VR has technical limitations but so did other great techs, it's a slow starter but the big difference between it and the 3DTV is that for MOST people who try high-end VR, it feels like a game-changer to them.  I have gone through Pong, to Colecovision, to the C64, to the Amiga, to the PC 3D engines, to the various modern consoles and nothing, NOTHING has hit me like the potential I see in high-end VR, it's simply that good an experience.  For 3D, although lots of people went and saw Avatar in the theatres because of the game-changing 3D it offered, you can't replicate that same 3D at home because of limitation in the technology... like an IMAX screen just can't fit at home.  Curiously enough, a 200 foot screen can exist in VR, but more on that later.  In fact a lot of people love to discuss VR in 3D terms and of course I can see why, yet it's also totally inappropriate.  Stereoscopic 3D is a big portion of it, yet many people with vision in only one eye report the same feelings of immersion, without the 3D. This is done through positional tracking and is one main reason why the current mobile VR is really not a fair comparison to high-end VR like the PC's Rift or Vive or the PS4.  It's coming though but then you have the motion controls and it seems those mobile headsets who are coming out with positional tracking (really inside-out tracking) will have motion controls but only when they are in range of the sensors located on the front of the headset. IE: this next generation of mobile still won't quite cut it, at least until both Oculus and HTC come out with their all-in-one headset..

Anyway, I know I rambled there a bit, sorry ;).  TLDR:  There are barriers but they will eventually be overcome.  VR is here to stay, maybe not as a homerun for a while but it will eventually get there.  Why? Because like so many inventions, it's a game-changer.

Onto games, even though there is little AAA support right now (Lone Echo, Robo Recall and Superhot VR seem to be the current standard and I'd call those AA games) I am amazed at how so many independent experiences still manage to be very immersive, and my mind is blown thinking what will it be like in 5 years time when HMD's are in more hands to lessen the financial risk?

For the PC, games to try if you have a Vive or Rift and some comments, reminders for those unaware:

IF you've tried VR before and had issues with dizziness, these are caused by:
- pc wasn't strong enough therefore you weren't achieving 90FPS, therefore tracking couldn't keep up, therefore dizzy.
- some people get sick in a car and that feeling of moving without you actually moving is what causes artificial locomotion (your body moving via you doing so by pushing a joystick) to cause the same dizziness.  IF you are subject to this, you can still enjoy VR but for crying out loud stop trying games and experiences that use artificial locomotion.  Doing so is like burning your hand when you touch fire and keep trying to see if it goes away.  Yes, some are able to get VR legs but not all and really you should let your body adjust by trying something where you yourself move around for real.  In the 50 or so people I've demo'd VR, ZERO have had dizziness when trying room scale games on the Vive that have zero artificial locomotion (rift not quite but at the time I was getting tracking issues).  Yes, ZERO.  That doesn't mean 100% of the population is immune to roomscale dizziness but it's at least a better chance of trying VR and seeing what it's about then just burning your hand again and again.

Some games:
- Google Earth VR: Tried it again last night and even though detail close to the ground is more like ground zero after an atomic Bomb exploded, I'm amazed at the range of emotions it invokes when viewing an area I visited in my youth.  I'm sure at some point, some psych student will focus his thesis on this very question ;).  Anyway, amazing, simply amazing and this from an app where you are just an observer!

- Lone Echo:  It's been said already but it's simply put a polished experience that's maybe not a system seller (that tech and $ barrier) but it's pretty close!

- cock pit racers and space games: If you can handle it without dizziness, then it's an incredible experience. For those who like racers, I tell you I think a game like space truck... er I mean Elite Dangerous is just as immersive, maybe even more so than racers.  Don't know why maybe it's psychological because everyone can drive a car but 99.9999999% of us can go into space and those spacecship VR cockpits really help you feel like you are there

- finally this is arcadecontrols and no one in the recent pages of this thread has mentioned NewREtroArcade?  (maybe I missed it?).  Anyway, I can't say enough about it, what a great experience and a fun way to revisit the arcades of old.  latest updates to the app even allows you to mix up the games fairly easy and supports lightgun games too!  There are other games such as pinball titles too like Zacarria and Pinball FX2 and yes, our favorite arcade pass-time is covered.

Ok, that was probably too long, sorry about that  :lol
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on August 10, 2017, 04:54:07 pm
PlayStation VR + Camera + RIGS/ Until Dawn /VR Worlds is $299.99 at Amazon with Promo Code PSVRGAMES

That is freaking tempting.  Probably include the Move controllers for the same price at Christmas, though.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on August 10, 2017, 04:58:38 pm
PlayStation VR + Camera + RIGS/ Until Dawn /VR Worlds is $299.99 at Amazon with Promo Code PSVRGAMES

That is freaking tempting.  Probably include the Move controllers for the same price at Christmas, though.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170810/9d4eb9182ec496e73dab66ee6d77ddf2.jpeg)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: jtslade on August 10, 2017, 10:20:50 pm
What happened I thought the majority hated VR?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on August 11, 2017, 01:59:22 am
What happened I thought the majority hated VR?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

People have now actually gave it a chance ;)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Howard_Casto on August 11, 2017, 01:25:31 pm
Nope... the price is coming down.  The majority still hate vr, but some are vr curious..... once they play it and get a feel for it THEN they'll confirm that it's the throw-away novelty that they always assumed it was.  ;)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on August 11, 2017, 02:03:14 pm
Nope... the price is coming down.  The majority still hate vr, but some are vr curious..... once they play it and get a feel for it THEN they'll confirm that it's the throw-away novelty that they always assumed it was.  ;)

Nope still loving it
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Loafmeister on August 11, 2017, 02:23:37 pm
You wrong Howard, you WRONG! ;)

It may not be for everyone, nothing ever is. But it's pretty amazing how many times I've heard "ok, now I get it"... you know... once people actually try a good VR system/experience.

Some dude I know hated it, say "I tried a vive, it SUCKS!  GTAV sucks in VR, so does a lot of big games, prefer them on standard PC screen".  I asked how the hell is he playing GTAV in VR when it doesn't exist as a VR app.  He said his buddy has VORPX which allows you to run some games on a big screen or pseudo vr via some geometry conversion.  Folks, if this is your past experience in VR, well it's not VR ok?

BTW one thing that hasn't been touched on too much is the social aspect of gaming, one of the reason why Nintendo (and Howard ;)) aren't too big on the VR concept.  Within the same room, there is no denying one person waiting while another plays isn't a lot of fun but COOP or Versus mode is pretty awesome.  In saying that another aspect that's really cool is apps like "Big Screen" which allows you to play flat screen games in a virtual room along with up to 3 other gamers.  OR same thing but instead watch a movie.  It's not just that the other people have an avatar there, it's the motion controlled tracked avatars that do it. Even though an avatar is NOTHING like a real life person, it's amazing how the experience becomes immersive when you see a couple of other dudes beside you moving around, while we are all chatting away while watching "Blade Runner".  It certainly improves the typical interaction on the internet (ie: a webcam). 
 
Big Screen (presently free) is another home-run app that needs to be experienced. If you have a Rift or Vive and haven't tried it, give it a whirl, I'm curious what your thoughts are once you experience it.  The devs are doing some real voodoo stuff with their newest patch (1080P streaming from your desktop at 30FPS through the internet to multiple people?  yep)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on August 11, 2017, 02:40:11 pm
I thought we all agreed that no one hates VR they just dont want to waste their money on it.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Howard_Casto on August 11, 2017, 03:09:54 pm
Perhaps hate isn't the right word.  Like I said, it's a novelty for now.... an exceedingly expensive novelty.  As the price comes down, more people will use it, but that doesn't mean it's here to stay or it will ever be a primary gaming experience.  It's more like racing wheels or lightguns.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on August 11, 2017, 03:45:58 pm
Nope... the price is coming down.  The majority still hate vr, but some are vr curious..... once they play it and get a feel for it THEN they'll confirm that it's the throw-away novelty that they always assumed it was.  ;)

The PSVR actually has me buying games again.  But damn these infernal cables....

It is definitely not a video gaming novelty.  In fact, it's barely "video gaming" at all, in the traditional sense.  I don't know why anyone would expend the energy to "hate" VR, other than a negative physical reaction, "sour grapes" or an incorrect perception that it threatens traditional video gaming.  Ambivalence, however, I can understand. 

There are some basic, and perhaps obvious things which I think will help a prospective VR user enjoy the experience:

1: Get it cheap.  VR isn't for everyone, so wait for an opportunity to buy a good used unit, when someone in that group decides it isn't for them.  If you jump in with both feet and spend $1500 you don't really have, you'll be comparing the cost to the experience delivered, and you will be disappointed.

2: Understand going in that you will be on a leash, with a fair amount of gear on your head/face.  But also understand that good VR experiences, and well designed hardware, will help minimize those distractions.  Nothing pulls you out of the experience more abruptly than tripping over a cable which is pulling at the back of your head, so have a plan to deal with this, or stick with seated games.

3: Find a private space to use it.  Again, wires.  It's also unnerving to be in an intense experience, and have someone messing with you because it's fun to do that to someone using VR :)

4: Get some good "surround" headphones.  The whole idea of VR is to be immersed into the environment being presented.  If you are hearing things which are not part of that environment, and therefore not meant to be heard, it can severely downgrade the experience.

5: Take it for what it is.  Focusing on the negatives (resolution, etc...) instead of accepting your somewhat lower quality new surroundings, will prevent you from being fully immersed.  In other words, leave your analytical mind at the door, and it will be much more enjoyable.


Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on August 11, 2017, 05:45:11 pm
Nope... the price is coming down.  The majority still hate vr, but some are vr curious..... once they play it and get a feel for it THEN they'll confirm that it's the throw-away novelty that they always assumed it was.  ;)

The PSVR actually has me buying games again.  But damn these infernal cables....

It is definitely not a video gaming novelty.  In fact, it's barely "video gaming" at all, in the traditional sense.  I don't know why anyone would expend the energy to "hate" VR, other than a negative physical reaction, "sour grapes" or an incorrect perception that it threatens traditional video gaming.  Ambivalence, however, I can understand. 

There are some basic, and perhaps obvious things which I think will help a prospective VR user enjoy the experience:

1: Get it cheap.  VR isn't for everyone, so wait for an opportunity to buy a good used unit, when someone in that group decides it isn't for them.  If you jump in with both feet and spend $1500 you don't really have, you'll be comparing the cost to the experience delivered, and you will be disappointed.

2: Understand going in that you will be on a leash, with a fair amount of gear on your head/face.  But also understand that good VR experiences, and well designed hardware, will help minimize those distractions.  Nothing pulls you out of the experience more abruptly than tripping over a cable which is pulling at the back of your head, so have a plan to deal with this, or stick with seated games.

3: Find a private space to use it.  Again, wires.  It's also unnerving to be in an intense experience, and have someone messing with you because it's fun to do that to someone using VR :)

4: Get some good "surround" headphones.  The whole idea of VR is to be immersed into the environment being presented.  If you are hearing things which are not part of that environment, and therefore not meant to be heard, it can severely downgrade the experience.

5: Take it for what it is.  Focusing on the negatives (resolution, etc...) instead of accepting your somewhat lower quality new surroundings, will prevent you from being fully immersed.  In other words, leave your analytical mind at the door, and it will be much more enjoyable.


Amen to that!

In my mind the tech is good atm for its infancy.

Once they reduce the cost, the cables and the hardware, and learn how to effectively use it then we will be there.

Next stop holo deck
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Howard_Casto on August 11, 2017, 05:55:01 pm
Once they reduce the cost, the cables and the hardware, and learn how to effectively use it then we will be there.

So once they change absolutely everything, in about 10-20 years, we will be good to go.  Thanks man, you just made my point.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on August 11, 2017, 06:00:19 pm
Once they reduce the cost, the cables and the hardware, and learn how to effectively use it then we will be there.

So once they change absolutely everything, in about 10-20 years, we will be good to go.  Thanks man, you just made my point.


Not at all.

You said people hate VR, that its a throw away novelty and everything needs to change.

I have said none of that.

I said its in its infancy and such has room for improvement.

No different to any other tech.

Also this thread is full of people who have actually brought into it, tried it and ultimately enjoyed it.

Hell its even won over some sceptics!

What are you afraid of Howard? Try it!
You may even not hate it ;)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on August 11, 2017, 06:13:52 pm
The majority still hate vr, but some are vr curious.....

Most people have yet to even try it, at least when it comes to gaming VR.   Those who do try it, tend to love it.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on August 11, 2017, 06:48:05 pm
Why do you guys keep arguing with Howard on the VR topic, everyone in the world could be using it (which will be the case eventually) and he is still going to say it is a fad gaming accessory that will fail; the guy is just out of touch leave it at that.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: yotsuya on August 11, 2017, 09:40:48 pm
Meh. Still ambivalent.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Howard_Casto on August 11, 2017, 10:30:13 pm
Why do you guys keep arguing with Howard on the VR topic, everyone in the world could be using it (which will be the case eventually) and he is still going to say it is a fad gaming accessory that will fail; the guy is just out of touch leave it at that.

Yeah the guy who predicted the Wii's success, the ouya's failure and various other things long before they were even released is "out of touch".  Sorry man, but I'm seldom wrong about these things.  Wanting something to be successful doesn't make it so.  If that were the case then the Wii U would have sold like hot-cakes. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Loafmeister on August 12, 2017, 12:05:46 am
Most people derive their opinions based on facts yet you haven't tried high quality VR but have your prediction all tied up in a nice bow? (And you are using words like "hate" again Howard ;)).  Your "proving my point" argument comes off as insincere and uninformed.  Even most who love VR aren't saying there is no room for improvement, nor are we saying there are no obstacles to mass market, there certainly are.  But the core tech is sound and in fact amazing and that's what our informed opinion is based on.  Granted we may be wrong but at least it's based on trying it.

May not be your intention but your comments make you look like a bridge dweller rather than a self-described prognosticator. ;).  Anyway no sense arguing with you, you are allowed your opinion, i still respect you lol, its just surprising as your posts usually seem to be based on facts first and foremost.  All is good but since I love VR, I sure hope you are wrong!

Edit: grammar, spelling and fixing typical mobile posting issues
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on August 12, 2017, 02:35:05 am
I think everyone could see the Wii's success and the U's failure.

That one was pretty plain to see!

The thing is much like the Wii, VR has to be tried to be appreciated.

You get no sense of it from watching videos, reviews or watching someone else play.

Its just another game with a thing on ya head until you experience it for yourself.

I know you like your racers Howard so why not try a good VR racer?
Give you a idea of what its like and more importantly the potential it has.

VR wont be going away, it just wont.
Far to much time and money has been invested into it to just let it die.

Will it carry on in gaming the way it is at the moment? Probably not.
But will it evolve, get better and continue to be a entertainment platform?

Oh yeah for sure!
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ark_ader on August 12, 2017, 05:01:40 am
Why do you guys keep arguing with Howard on the VR topic, everyone in the world could be using it (which will be the case eventually) and he is still going to say it is a fad gaming accessory that will fail; the guy is just out of touch leave it at that.

Because it is fun, that's why, and he is so gullible to boot.

You are totally wrong Howard and VR is here to stay on the switch.  So there!

https://www.theverge.com/2017/4/30/15492252/nintendo-switch-vr-workaround-zelda-watch (https://www.theverge.com/2017/4/30/15492252/nintendo-switch-vr-workaround-zelda-watch)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RayB on August 13, 2017, 05:47:44 pm
Once they reduce the cost, the cables and the hardware, and learn how to effectively use it then we will be there.

So once they change absolutely everything, in about 10-20 years, we will be good to go.  Thanks man, you just made my point.
5 years at the most.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: jennifer on August 13, 2017, 06:35:18 pm
    Perhaps in a home setting might be a fun toy, But from a real world standpoint, nobody is going to put on somebodys sweaty mask.... Just going to have to agree with howard. :dunno
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on August 13, 2017, 06:44:48 pm
But from a real world standpoint, nobody is going to put on somebodys sweaty mask....

It's washable ;)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on August 13, 2017, 07:03:18 pm
The face covers can get nasty. I bought a few waterproof/sport replacements just for that. You can also buy a pack of hygienic covers for super cheap which are like a one time things.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Loafmeister on August 13, 2017, 10:30:07 pm
The hygien issue is real, as stated before anything covering the head is a turn off for some too.  In saying that, VR can still be successful without the need to sell to absolutely everyone.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Mike A on August 14, 2017, 07:33:54 am
Round and round we go. ::)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ark_ader on August 15, 2017, 05:11:21 am
The hygienic issue is real, as stated before anything covering the head is a turn off for some too.  In saying that, VR can still be successful without the need to sell to absolutely everyone.

At CES 2016 and 2017 when VR was at its height and everyone and his cousin had a VR "solution" at their kiosk, I didn't see any attempts at making them hygienic for the attendees.  No wet wipes or even a Kleenex.  I'm sure they will have plenty of tissues available next year when you have the VR solution at every kiosk at the AEE, and I hear it will be huge market for their content, if they manage to get space at CES 2018.  I've been told the AEE vendors are targeting the sad and lonely, so you guys better get your tickets early.  :laugh2:

Everyone at the INTEL Oculus VR booth was happy to wait in line for an hour to put on the headset of the previous tester, especially a well sweaty Mr. Wang.  I get the short straw every year (probably due to the pool car issue) to take clients through that particular ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- show, including Mr. Wang.  He took me to lunch to a nice restaurant so it wasn't all bad.   :blah:

When the public starts getting face and eye itchies, then you will see products on the internet that remedy the situation.  I know of two companies that are directly targeting the home market.  Apparently not all people wash their face.
http://www.refinery29.com/2017/03/148076/caveman-regimen-skin-care (http://www.refinery29.com/2017/03/148076/caveman-regimen-skin-care)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: jennifer on August 15, 2017, 09:51:21 am
    EWWWWW.... That's just GROSS, just what this world needs some kind of viral face herpes and pinkeye.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on August 15, 2017, 10:42:44 am
Hmm... VR glasses herpes might make a new convenient excuse.  I think word's gotten out to our wives that the toilet seat thing isn't true...
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on August 15, 2017, 12:37:57 pm
I bought my PSVR used, and the very first thing I did was learn how to take the rubber shield off.  The whole thing got washed/disinfected.

That said, how many of you spent a night at a popular arcade, and after playing every game there, where the controls were handled by about 1000 different people, promptly went and had a slice of pizza without washing your hands first?

 ;D
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on August 15, 2017, 12:44:06 pm
That said, how many of you spent a night at a popular arcade, and after playing every game there, where the controls were handled by about 1000 different people, promptly went and had a slice of pizza without washing your hands first?

Three things to keep in mind at all times:

1 - there's probably someone buried under you
2 - if it's a flat surface, people have had sex on it
3 - everything is coated in poop

 :cheers:
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on August 15, 2017, 03:06:35 pm
That said, how many of you spent a night at a popular arcade, and after playing every game there, where the controls were handled by about 1000 different people, promptly went and had a slice of pizza without washing your hands first?

Three things to keep in mind at all times:

1 - there's probably someone buried under you
2 - if it's a flat surface, people have had sex on it
3 - everything is coated in poop

 :cheers:

You forgot number 4 about money being filthy and 98% of 20's have traces of cocaine.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on August 15, 2017, 05:19:14 pm
At CES 2016 and 2017 when VR was at its height
How do you know it was at it's height?  Did you somehow already attend CES 2018 and saw that it has a lesser VR presence?

    Perhaps in a home setting might be a fun toy, But from a real world standpoint, nobody is going to put on somebodys sweaty mask....
Uh, this IS a home device, and while some people are commercializing it, they are commercializing a home device.  If it was designed to go into public arcades, it would have a non-porous face pad.

You definitely want spare mask foam lying around if you are going to share your VR.  I had a friend come over to play and afterward it was practically dripping with his sweat.  I pulled that one off and grabbed the spare that came with it and velcro'd it on and was good to go.  I mean, it did take me an extra 15 seconds, but 10 of those were wasted opening the drawer and digging out the spare pad.  Not exactly a deal breaker.  You can get extras for a few dollars each, and you can wash them. 

I laugh at germaphobes.. they are always the first to get sick any time a new bug is going around.  The only time I feel I need to use a hand sanitizer is after digging in the bargain blu-ray bin at walmart.  For whatever scary reason, I feel violated after touching anything in that bin.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: jennifer on August 15, 2017, 08:35:24 pm
   OMG.... Who would have thought eye herpes is actually already a thing, VR on I guess, Not me, NEVER.(http://)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on August 15, 2017, 10:23:27 pm
The whole VR hygiene thing is overblown.  The Vive at least features a removable foam insert, which I make a point of washing before and after any demos I give to people.  And I wipe down the inside of the mask and lenses with a lens cleaner.

Takes all of 5 minutes or so to do and keeps the Vive nice 'n clean.  After all the demos I've given to people, no reports of pinkeye or eye herpes yet. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ark_ader on August 16, 2017, 03:44:29 am
At CES 2016 and 2017 when VR was at its height
How do you know it was at it's height?  Did you somehow already attend CES 2018 and saw that it has a lesser VR presence?

Well, well let me put it this way.  Nearly everyone there at 2016 CES had a VR doodad, and it wasn't Oculus.  It was some $20 ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- pingpongpoo knock off everyone there, and we are talking the vendors, thought it was hot ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.  Basically google cardboard. Roll forward to 2017 CES and the big LCD screens was all hype again, even Nvidia was hidden and only had a PC case on show. 

Samsung had their booth showing Gear2 watches and the Samsung VR. Yawn.  Intel was showcasing drones, and VR was no where near, probably due to them hooking up the VR to their HD video graphics, which did not work all the time.  Actually I think 2017 was the year of the drones, and they had a nice sub drone on display.

I have some photos somewhere I'll post.  Also Intel had the PC on a SDCARD  called Edison (https://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/01/07/intel_demos_pconsd_tiny_computer_for_internet_of_things_and_wearables/) at the 2014 show, and this too was non existent in 2016 CES.  It was tiny, had two cores and no possibilities.  It is a good bet that the 2018 show will produce less VR products and more LCD TVs and drones.  I would start booking hotels now, as they will be expensive by November.  ;)

OK I'm lazy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpCBjFuSNLs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpCBjFuSNLs)
https://vimeo.com/201589797 (https://vimeo.com/201589797)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aBhaLcHAwA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aBhaLcHAwA)
http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/technology/sd-fi-ces-intel-20170104-story.html (http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/technology/sd-fi-ces-intel-20170104-story.html)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ark_ader on August 16, 2017, 03:47:05 am
   OMG.... Who would have thought eye herpes is actually already a thing, VR on I guess, Not me, NEVER.(http://)

Could be worse.  Could be Space Herpes...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnJrenTkGGE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnJrenTkGGE)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=264s-sFqvTA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=264s-sFqvTA)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Loafmeister on August 16, 2017, 08:11:07 am
I think it's time to take away the conversation from "Space Herpes" to something more VR progressive related.  As stated by others, geez it's not like everyone uses hand sanitizer every time they handle money or a doorknob ;)

So I recently bought a flight sim game that is early access called "VTOL VR", a fighter/bomber flight sim.  VTOL is the second flying game that uses motion controllers to its full potential (the other being Ultrawings, an ultralight casual flying game), where you can interact with everything in the cockpit.  With VTOL (Vertical Take-Off and Landing), the dev has taken a more sim approach and therefore there’s a lot more buttons and switches to interact with compared to Ultrawings.  Of course, there’s a lot more buttons and levers to interact with in a fighter plane compared to an ultralight ;).  VTOL goes further down the sim angle as even the act of taking off requires a more robust  “checklist” approach to getting the plane off the tarmac and even for flying it (never mind landing!!!).  On their approach I can only congratulate the dev of VTOL for providing an extremely polished interface.  Flipping all the buttons, switches and levers and understanding why some steps must be done in specific order leads to an incredibly rewarding and super immersive experience.  In fact, for a game that definitely feels “early access” (limited amount of missions to choose from), the dev chose to concentrate primarily on the interface and the core gameplay which is primarily you and the cockpit.  For me anyway, it’s quite the homerun.  Even non-motion controller portion of the cockpit are superbly well done, whether it’s the very 3D HUD for navigational tracking to the look of everything, the cockpit is IMHO the pinnacle of VR thus far.  The author has really put a lot of thought into it as even the seat and both main virtual controls (thrust and flight stick) positions are adjustable. This is important as some missions can be long and you don’t want to suffer from arm fatigue so the ability to move the virtual controls can then allow you to have them simulate your chair’s arm rest, which should make it easier to fly.  Is it perfect?  Nope. Outside the excellent cockpit interaction, the look of VTOL is extremely basic, I’d even say it’s a “bland” graphic engine. The game engine is smooth (super important in VR to limit sickness, which I felt none) but it could use a bit of color and more detail around the tree-less mountain and the very basic buildings.  There is little animation in this game, giving a very anti-septic feel to the virtual world… outside the cockpit. 

In saying that, I get where the focus was put: Interacting with all the controls.  Flying the plane itself is very fun but it’s also fairly difficult, partially because of the sim aspect and also because sometimes I had to fight with the controls.  My initial thoughts on the controls was “man they need to be improved”, but now I’m thinking I was holding the right Vive controller wrong and since that’s the controller that simulates the flight stick, it causes issues.  So how was I holding it wrong?  As you press various switches, the Vive control is held more of less horizontal as you reach out for everything.  When you “grab” onto the flight stick, your virtual hand locks in.  However I couldn’t seem to move “up” with consistency.  A couple of nights ago, I decided to place the controller first vertically so that the trigger is placed more or less in the same position as the virtual stick before locking “in” the stick.  Lo and behold I seemed to have better range of motion and that instantly translated to an improved experience.  Playing it some more last night (after an update came out) and it seemed to be even better.  Nothing will ever replace a good HOTAS setup but damn, this virtual joystick set up actually works really good!

Anyway, along with the various cockpit autopilot features (found on real fighter planes of course *cough cough*) it’s certainly playable and is immense fun. You know the game is doing something right where in the middle of the day you start thinking about it, how you think you can improve certain areas of your flying, etc and how you can't wait to get back in!  I believe I read that VTOL is currently a one-man dev team.  If this is true, then congrats to the dev, it’s quite an achievement to get this much of the core gameplay so very much right!  Hopefully continued support can lead to improvements in the core gameplay and some tweaks to beautify the graphic look of the game… and at the very least add a lot more missions to expand on the content.  Doing so will surely lead to a mature product that will lead the way for other dev teams to consider adding full motion controller to their own games (I’m looking at you Elite Dangerous and ETS2!), … at least for the cockpit switches, etc.

As for the other flying game that has full motion controller support, Ultrawings is a lot of fun.  Being a more casual game, it's closer to Pilot Wings 64 then a true flight sim and with that in mind, it works really well and is fun to play.  Less cockpit interaction but still with some good motion controller gameplay (aside from flying you can shoot balloons eheh), it works very well.  Word of warning, not sure if it's because I'm super sampling too much but the steam version seems to cause me slight motion dizziness.  Before the horde calls out "that's what's wrong with VR", a reminder that this is a flying game and I was swaying back and forth pretty badly.  I don't recall having this issue when I played the Oculus Home version (which uses the Oculus SDK while I was playing Ultrawings on the Vive last night which uses the SteamVR OpenSDK?)

Anyway fun times ;)

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Mike A on August 16, 2017, 10:53:24 am
Space herpes is more interesting. This thread would be much better if it was discussing Ice Pirates.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: jennifer on August 16, 2017, 12:50:31 pm
  :scared  Jennifer, (up on her chair) looks around nervously for space herpes  :scared
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Loafmeister on August 16, 2017, 04:28:56 pm
Jennifer: I wouldn't touch chairs if I were you, people's butt's touch chairs you know   ;D
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on August 16, 2017, 05:34:25 pm
Jennifer: I wouldn't touch chairs if I were you, people's butt's touch chairs you know   ;D

Every chair in my house has had more than a naked butt on
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on August 17, 2017, 12:19:56 am
Nearly everyone there at 2016 CES had a VR doodad, and it wasn't Oculus.  It was some $20 ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- pingpongpoo knock off everyone there, and we are talking the vendors, thought it was hot ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.  Basically google cardboard.
so what you are saying is 2016 was the height of releasing new cardboard VR viewers... I can't disagree.  It became apparent pretty fast to manufacturers that while a real VR experience is pretty amazing, a $5 solution is simply a waste of $5 and has a better chance of turning anyone interested in trying it out into a naysayer who is sure it is just a fad that will go away soon.  I mean, come on, they "tried VR" and it just wasn't that cool, so only an idiot would spend hundreds of dollars for it. 

And after 15? pages of VR talk about the "real deal" headsets that have tracking and controllers and 90+fps display rates, some are still seeing them as expensive versions of cardboard VR viewers.   :dunno   Meanwhile the ones who actually use real headsets are talking about how amazing these things are. 

You and Howard need to get together and have a beer and talk about how up to date you are on technology trends.  Once you get bored with talking about the bleeding edge technology of 90's consoles, you can go drive a Honda with a tuner and a fart can and become experts on Ferraris from your experiences...

BTW, Best Buy has a deal right now on the Rift with the touch controllers - $399. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ark_ader on August 17, 2017, 01:14:59 am
Nearly everyone there at 2016 CES had a VR doodad, and it wasn't Oculus.  It was some $20 ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- pingpongpoo knock off everyone there, and we are talking the vendors, thought it was hot ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.  Basically google cardboard.


You and Howard need to get together and have a beer and talk about how up to date you are on technology trends.  Once you get bored with talking about the bleeding edge technology of 90's consoles, you can go drive a Honda with a tuner and a fart can and become experts on Ferraris from your experiences...



Nah it would be like talking to my 61 year old tech clueless brother, and if I managed to get like 10 minutes of conversation in, I would have to play some Zelda to make Howard happy.

It would make me want to put a rusty nail in my eye.  Thanks anyway.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ark_ader on August 17, 2017, 01:16:55 am
I think it's time to take away the conversation from "Space Herpes" to something more VR progressive related.  As stated by others, geez it's not like everyone uses hand sanitizer every time they handle money or a doorknob ;)

So I recently bought a flight sim game that is early access called "VTOL VR", a fighter/bomber flight sim.  VTOL is the second flying game that uses motion controllers to its full potential (the other being Ultrawings, an ultralight casual flying game), where you can interact with everything in the cockpit.  With VTOL (Vertical Take-Off and Landing), the dev has taken a more sim approach and therefore there’s a lot more buttons and switches to interact with compared to Ultrawings.  Of course, there’s a lot more buttons and levers to interact with in a fighter plane compared to an ultralight ;).  VTOL goes further down the sim angle as even the act of taking off requires a more robust  “checklist” approach to getting the plane off the tarmac and even for flying it (never mind landing!!!).  On their approach I can only congratulate the dev of VTOL for providing an extremely polished interface.  Flipping all the buttons, switches and levers and understanding why some steps must be done in specific order leads to an incredibly rewarding and super immersive experience.  In fact, for a game that definitely feels “early access” (limited amount of missions to choose from), the dev chose to concentrate primarily on the interface and the core gameplay which is primarily you and the cockpit.  For me anyway, it’s quite the homerun.  Even non-motion controller portion of the cockpit are superbly well done, whether it’s the very 3D HUD for navigational tracking to the look of everything, the cockpit is IMHO the pinnacle of VR thus far.  The author has really put a lot of thought into it as even the seat and both main virtual controls (thrust and flight stick) positions are adjustable. This is important as some missions can be long and you don’t want to suffer from arm fatigue so the ability to move the virtual controls can then allow you to have them simulate your chair’s arm rest, which should make it easier to fly.  Is it perfect?  Nope. Outside the excellent cockpit interaction, the look of VTOL is extremely basic, I’d even say it’s a “bland” graphic engine. The game engine is smooth (super important in VR to limit sickness, which I felt none) but it could use a bit of color and more detail around the tree-less mountain and the very basic buildings.  There is little animation in this game, giving a very anti-septic feel to the virtual world… outside the cockpit. 

In saying that, I get where the focus was put: Interacting with all the controls.  Flying the plane itself is very fun but it’s also fairly difficult, partially because of the sim aspect and also because sometimes I had to fight with the controls.  My initial thoughts on the controls was “man they need to be improved”, but now I’m thinking I was holding the right Vive controller wrong and since that’s the controller that simulates the flight stick, it causes issues.  So how was I holding it wrong?  As you press various switches, the Vive control is held more of less horizontal as you reach out for everything.  When you “grab” onto the flight stick, your virtual hand locks in.  However I couldn’t seem to move “up” with consistency.  A couple of nights ago, I decided to place the controller first vertically so that the trigger is placed more or less in the same position as the virtual stick before locking “in” the stick.  Lo and behold I seemed to have better range of motion and that instantly translated to an improved experience.  Playing it some more last night (after an update came out) and it seemed to be even better.  Nothing will ever replace a good HOTAS setup but damn, this virtual joystick set up actually works really good!

Anyway, along with the various cockpit autopilot features (found on real fighter planes of course *cough cough*) it’s certainly playable and is immense fun. You know the game is doing something right where in the middle of the day you start thinking about it, how you think you can improve certain areas of your flying, etc and how you can't wait to get back in!  I believe I read that VTOL is currently a one-man dev team.  If this is true, then congrats to the dev, it’s quite an achievement to get this much of the core gameplay so very much right!  Hopefully continued support can lead to improvements in the core gameplay and some tweaks to beautify the graphic look of the game… and at the very least add a lot more missions to expand on the content.  Doing so will surely lead to a mature product that will lead the way for other dev teams to consider adding full motion controller to their own games (I’m looking at you Elite Dangerous and ETS2!), … at least for the cockpit switches, etc.

As for the other flying game that has full motion controller support, Ultrawings is a lot of fun.  Being a more casual game, it's closer to Pilot Wings 64 then a true flight sim and with that in mind, it works really well and is fun to play.  Less cockpit interaction but still with some good motion controller gameplay (aside from flying you can shoot balloons eheh), it works very well.  Word of warning, not sure if it's because I'm super sampling too much but the steam version seems to cause me slight motion dizziness.  Before the horde calls out "that's what's wrong with VR", a reminder that this is a flying game and I was swaying back and forth pretty badly.  I don't recall having this issue when I played the Oculus Home version (which uses the Oculus SDK while I was playing Ultrawings on the Vive last night which uses the SteamVR OpenSDK?)

Anyway fun times ;)

So are you the guy that gets to write the manual for this "fun game"?  You have the gift of the waffle, that is for sure.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Loafmeister on August 20, 2017, 01:18:25 pm
Nah, it's just a talent ;)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on August 21, 2017, 09:54:21 am
Vive price just dropped. Now $599 US. (https://blog.vive.com/us/2017/08/21/htc-vive-announces-price-drop/)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Loafmeister on August 21, 2017, 10:52:09 am
That's big...  and about time
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on August 28, 2017, 12:44:44 pm
I finally tried PinballFX2 VR on the PSVR.  Aside from a bit of a strange choice for the default view distance from the table, which is fixed by reorienting the view while looking at the ceiling, I'm very impressed.  It's literally a night and day difference from playing on a TV.  I don't know whether the physics engine has been changed on this, or whether the difference is solely in being able to better see the ball position and interaction  (I'm seriously leaning toward the former) but this plays and feels as close to real pinball as anything I have played outside of real machines.  I already own 2 of the 3 tables in the basic VR collection, and they feel like completely different games.

Certain gaming genres benefit greatly from this kind of tech, and pinball sims appear to be yet another which does, and to an extensive degree.  I can't wait to see some licensed tables using the technology.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on August 28, 2017, 01:03:45 pm
Might have to give that one a go, I love pinball but dont have the room for one atm :(
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pixel on August 28, 2017, 01:10:55 pm
I finally tried PinballFX2 VR on the PSVR.  Aside from a bit of a strange choice for the default view distance from the table, which is fixed by reorienting the view while looking at the ceiling, I'm very impressed.  It's literally a night and day difference from playing on a TV.  I don't know whether the physics engine has been changed on this, or whether the difference is solely in being able to better see the ball position and interaction  (I'm seriously leaning toward the former) but this plays and feels as close to real pinball as anything I have played outside of real machines.  I already own 2 of the 3 tables in the basic VR collection, and they feel like completely different games.

Certain gaming genres benefit greatly from this kind of tech, and pinball sims appear to be yet another which does, and to an extensive degree.  I can't wait to see some licensed tables using the technology.


 See if you cant get mame to play  Continental Circus 3D  on them.   Pressing one of the F1 keys, in-game,   (I think f2)  , enables stereoscopic 3d mode.
The 3d on Continental Circus is damn awesome.    Parts and pieces, smoke, tires...etc..  flying out of the screen,  constantly.     It takes a mildly 'Meh' game,
and turns it into a whole other level of experience.

 The depth of 3d is really impressive.. both into and out of the screen.   Which sadly,  is often a real rarity in many Stereoscopic games as well as films.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on August 28, 2017, 07:52:52 pm
Quote
I finally tried PinballFX2 VR on the PSVR.  Aside from a bit of a strange choice for the default view distance from the table, which is fixed by reorienting the view while looking at the ceiling, I'm very impressed.  It's literally a night and day difference from playing on a TV.  I don't know whether the physics engine has been changed on this, or whether the difference is solely in being able to better see the ball position and interaction  (I'm seriously leaning toward the former) but this plays and feels as close to real pinball as anything I have played outside of real machines.  I already own 2 of the 3 tables in the basic VR collection, and they feel like completely different games.

Certain gaming genres benefit greatly from this kind of tech, and pinball sims appear to be yet another which does, and to an extensive degree.  I can't wait to see some licensed tables using the technology.

you mean you have not built one of these yet :P
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18EcIxywXHg#)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Howard_Casto on August 28, 2017, 08:16:24 pm
So someone found at mention of "VR mode" in the Nintendo switch OS.  If they follow through with it either it'll save VR, or run it into the ground.  So get ready guys. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on August 29, 2017, 03:18:04 am
So someone found at mention of "VR mode" in the Nintendo switch OS.  If they follow through with it either it'll save VR, or run it into the ground.  So get ready guys.

How very fanboy of you to suggest that VR's life is held by Nintendo
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ark_ader on August 29, 2017, 03:42:38 am
So someone found at mention of "VR mode" in the Nintendo switch OS.  If they follow through with it either it'll save VR, or run it into the ground.  So get ready guys.

I think it was a poor attempt at humor, but funny none the less.  :P
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on August 29, 2017, 07:53:39 am
So someone found at mention of "VR mode" in the Nintendo switch OS.  If they follow through with it either it'll save VR, or run it into the ground.  So get ready guys.

I think it was a poor attempt at humor, but funny none the less.  :P

For once I actually agree with you! :p
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on August 29, 2017, 12:12:33 pm
I think it was a poor attempt at humor, but funny none the less.  :P

Don't know if he was being facetious, but he probably should have been.  With a 720p screen, and "tablet-grade" horsepower, it would be more like VD than VR  ;D

N's business model, which seems to be selling repackaged 5-year-old technology for nearly the cost of current tech, in order to upgrade the experience for followers of their dated core software IP, won't work with VR.  At least not until the mid-way point of the next generation of consoles. 

Plain old 3D would probably be a stretch for the current hardware.  If one wanted to sour the masses on VR, this route would probably be more successful in doing so than current cellphone attempts.  Let's hope they don't.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Howard_Casto on August 29, 2017, 12:41:49 pm
Man you guys just don't get it.  Nintendo doesn't half-ass anything, unlike other companies.  If they decide to do VR they'll be all in, with all the flagship titles having vr support.  It won't be like Sony's half-hearted attempt or the hot mess over on the pc side of things.  The fact that you guys don't get it pretty much explains why you think vr is doing well. 

If they decide to work on vr, it will be completely irrelevant that the tech isn't as good since there will be good games to play on it.... something vr still hasn't given anyone after years of promises.  I mean do you remember the wii?  Overpowered up gamecube, crappy 480p graphics, but it had a good gimmick, and that gimmick was fully supported by Nintendo in all their games, so it beat the pants off of the competition.  Btw all those motion controllers you guys are using with your rigs.... Nintendo says "you're welcome" for making that mainstream and getting the cost of the tech down. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Mike A on August 29, 2017, 01:10:15 pm
You and Nintendo need to get a room.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on August 29, 2017, 01:10:57 pm
Think you have just proved you aint got a glue about VR howard!

There are some excellent games out for VR and more and more slowly filtering in.
DOOM VFR will be out soon and I have high hopes that will exceed Farpoint on the PSVR.

Maybe if you actually tried a good VR game on a good set up you would understand why your comment is so laughable at best!
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on August 29, 2017, 02:56:04 pm
Come on now, Howard read an article about VR 4 years ago, it makes him an expert on the subject, you should give him more respect.

Kidding aside, I don't think Nintendo has been a force in gaming for quite a few years.  Aside from a few commercials about the switch a while back, I would have thought they went out of business.  Nintendo's market seems to be overtaken by Android games, while the serious stuff is still in the hands of Sony, MS, and the PC market.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on August 29, 2017, 02:58:17 pm
If they decide to do VR they'll be all in, with all the flagship titles having vr support. 

They haven't been "all in" for over a decade.

Quote
I mean do you remember the wii?  Overpowered up gamecube, crappy 480p graphics, but it had a good gimmick, and that gimmick was fully supported by Nintendo in all their games, so it beat the pants off of the competition.  Btw all those motion controllers you guys are using with your rigs.... Nintendo says "you're welcome" for making that mainstream and getting the cost of the tech down.

I remember it, and so does everyone else who relegated it to the closet after a week or so of use.  I believe good VR is too valuable a commodity to squander it away in the public view, the way the Wii did with motion controllers.  And BTW, you should probably do a little research on the technology used with VR controllers, before comparing them to the Wii's, which basically used off the shelf tech anyway.  Aside from those  chips, the Move controllers use very different technology, which existed before the Wii.  I even sat in on a tech demo at the glasses-free 3D company where I worked long ago, which could track just your hands in much the same way.  It was in it's infancy then, but it worked.

This type of control is essential to VR.  Had it not been re-purposed for VR, it would still exist, Wii or not.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on August 29, 2017, 03:48:10 pm
Thought the Wii controller was just a wireless mouse pointer? Did it have the ability to track how close or far the controller was to the sensors? I have seen plenty of TV remotes in the last 6 years that can do what the Wii controller did.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ark_ader on August 29, 2017, 04:24:39 pm
What most of you (and we are talking about most of Howard here) is forgetting is that the wii was instrumental in getting people active when playing games.  Most of the old folk accommodations have a wii in their communal room.  Instead of being a couch potatoe, you ended up being instant mash while playing bowling.  Nintendoh knows all about VR with that red monstrosity, it brought out when we had darker colored hair.

Nintendoh will let VR go with the betamax of Oculus, and wait it out.  Still early days and they are not really into hard core innovation like Sony and M$ are (is).   Remember that betamax is still being used today, will after EOL of VHS but you know what I mean.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Loafmeister on August 29, 2017, 04:35:04 pm
Man, I dunno but if Nintendo's "all in approach" gave us the WiiU and the eventual lack of success, I'm worried if VR's future depends on them.

This isn't to say howard isn't at least partially right.  Although there's been some good VR titles, let's be real here, high budget AAA games that take years to develop, well you can count them on a couple of fingers.  If Nintendo or another company REALLY puts their hat in and puts all their top IP's on it, it certainly wouldn't hurt it's success.

The problem is, Nintendo is damn good at offering what I would say "good price ratio".  At the moment looking at what "I" want out of VR (high quality content that looks damn awesome), then I don't see Nintendo throwing their hat in at all, less we get a Gear VR quality VR experience and I'm sorry but that's not what a lot of us want and if the tech isn't high quality enough, that will lead to potential nausea and Nintendo won't touch that with a 10 foot pole.  So maybe Nintendo may jump into VR but it won't be with this tech unless it's a side project or they take the peripheral route and if that is the route they take, you can forget all those IP's showing up unless it is in one "Super Smash Bros" title ;)

Pinball in VR:  Yes, it's not your imagination, the Vive and Rift both support near-zero lag due to our the tech is build. This was one of the crucial components that solved in part the nausea issue (nausea that is tied to refresh rate and frame rate issues, not artificial locomotion).  I think this is done because they use low persistent screens? (I'm no expert!).  Another good Pinball title in VR is Zaccaria Pinball. The VR add-on is a little expensive but IMHO worth it. In saying that, wait for sales if the price bothers you.  It's very cool to walk around the machine but the lack of lag REALLY makes a huge difference.  I don't know if the gameplay is improved but lot's of people play Future Pinball on it. Yes, some of the engine/flipper physics obviously isn't as mature as the other simulators but it's free and there are lot's of tables to choose from.  I still haven't had the time to try it, gotta get around to it some time.  Persnoally I hope Stern/Farsight hurry up and get off their ass and release Stern Pinball Arcade for the Rift with Ghostbusters.  Oh man I can't wait for that...
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on August 29, 2017, 05:46:49 pm
Nintendo have been rocking the "different" approach the last couple of generations.

And to be honest I cant blame them for that, They have played the market to their own strengths very well choosing not to go head to head with Sony and MS.

They saw a opportunity in the market to bring something to the masses that was affordable and appealing to all with great potential for exploring new ideas with the DS and the Wii, and of course more recently with the switch.

Now I think they would be foolish to change tact at this point.

I dont think it would be a bad thing for them to get on the bandwagon and make something VR compatible.
I think they could bring something to the masses with it.

But I dont think the switch is it.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on August 29, 2017, 06:43:55 pm
Can't do a slap save on a VR pinball and that's half the game.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on August 29, 2017, 08:11:53 pm
you can.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on August 29, 2017, 08:53:42 pm
Lol no
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Howard_Casto on August 30, 2017, 12:36:30 am
But I dont think the switch is it.

Sure it is.  Why?  Cost.  Slap a 20 dollar headset onto the switch tablet and you are done.  People are willing to try new concepts in gaming only if it doesn't require a large investment.  It was one of the Wii's main selling points.... in a generation where both competing consoles surpassed the $300 mark and came with jack and squat, you could get a wii for 250 and it came with a game and two controllers.  People were willing to try the wii because of how little an investment it was... and a switch would similarly be a small investment... at least for their regular install base that already has a switch.  Before someone chimes in about all the android/iPhone headsets and how they failed... well that's because all the games sucked.  With Nintendo, love em or hate em, you know they'll bring their A game. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on August 30, 2017, 02:49:57 am
About 90% complete
Have only played Project Cars, Elite Dangerous. Those two alone make this build worth it.
Let me know if you have any recommend games to check out. Started a new thread in the racing section if you want to check out more.

(https://s19.postimg.org/uvrgxwddf/0829172221b.jpg)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on August 30, 2017, 03:14:49 am
But I dont think the switch is it.

Sure it is.  Why?  Cost.  Slap a 20 dollar headset onto the switch tablet and you are done.  People are willing to try new concepts in gaming only if it doesn't require a large investment.  It was one of the Wii's main selling points.... in a generation where both competing consoles surpassed the $300 mark and came with jack and squat, you could get a wii for 250 and it came with a game and two controllers.  People were willing to try the wii because of how little an investment it was... and a switch would similarly be a small investment... at least for their regular install base that already has a switch.  Before someone chimes in about all the android/iPhone headsets and how they failed... well that's because all the games sucked.  With Nintendo, love em or hate em, you know they'll bring their A game.

Because a £20 head set aint going to cut the Cheese!

You can create the best game concept ever but if the hardware is not game its not going to work.

The switch is far from a powerful system.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on August 30, 2017, 04:44:35 am
Some Samsung VR games are legit. Isnt the switch more powerful then a Samsung S8?
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on August 30, 2017, 05:31:28 am
Looking at the Switch's specs, I can't imagine it could deliver a proper, gaming VR experience.  Not without some compromises and the problem with VR is that if you compromise to much, you quickly run the risk of going below the minimum ergonomic threshold needed for the experience.  It runs the risk of pulling a Virtual Boy all over again.

Maybe Nintendo can take a crack at gaming VR with its next gen console.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Loafmeister on August 30, 2017, 08:57:33 am
I don't think the Switch is up to it tech wise but maybe it will be good enough if they go for the typical Nintendo happy happy joy joy graphic style.  Hey, I HOPE it's good enough, VR can only benefit a large company like Nintendo doing it's thing; unfortunately outside of a few exceptions, the majority of VR gaming that interests me delves in more realistic graphics so a 720P screen I doubt would cut it.

pbj:  slap save is HALF the game?  Really? 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Mike A on August 30, 2017, 09:11:46 am
Yes. The slap save is half the game.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Loafmeister on August 30, 2017, 12:52:48 pm
Good as I think slap saves are included in most of the simulators so we are good!
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Loafmeister on August 30, 2017, 12:56:16 pm
Need to lose weight?  Lot's of solutions out there, including VR! ;)

https://uploadvr.com/man-loses-50-pounds-playing-soundboxing/
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on August 30, 2017, 01:23:21 pm
I only do it when I'm pumping actual money into the games, but it's a big part of it.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Loafmeister on August 30, 2017, 01:26:52 pm
I don't deny it, just not sure if it's there or not, if it will prevent me from enjoying a computer simulation of real pinball. There are SOOOO many other differences between real pinball and virtual that I think "slap saves" is a super small part of what it can make it fun or not.  Personally, I like flatscreen or VR pinball lots...
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on August 30, 2017, 03:43:30 pm

Who said slap saves are not part of pin sims?  You have to remember that virtual tables are "perfect", meaning no irregular surfaces to randomly affect ball trajectory.  So, a large part of the game is learning exactly where and how the ball will eventually contact the flippers when exiting ramps, capture wells, etc...  Some require a flipper to be extended to prevent a center drain, and of course, when the trajectory is close to SDTM, a slap save works.  The problem is that the ball often ends up under the first flipper, so it's tricky to pull off.  Even when successful, it tends to fly up the inlanes, but I've done it plenty.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Loafmeister on August 30, 2017, 04:59:32 pm
pbj is the trouble maker who started this vicious "slap-save don't exist in VR pinball" rumour. :badmood: 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pixel on August 30, 2017, 05:13:18 pm
 Im not going to completely agree with Howard...  but I will say,  that he does have a good point in the argument.


 The cost of VR may be coming down... but its still quite up there for the masses (with everything from hardware to powerful PC in total).   

 Not only that,  but not everyone likes the typical VR style FPS gun games.    Especially since many of these are developed as Cross-Platform,  and
are not specifically balanced and tailored to,  VR.    As such... game difficulty may be too easy,  and too limited / simplistic.   Its generally too expensive
for companies to develop completely different platform specifics...  so if it is done... its usually the "short-cut"  method...  which creates a lackluster
experience.


 Does VR have to have the most Amazing realistic graphics to be good?   Not at all.     Go to any game store,  and you will see that any
Super Mario Bros.  2d  games... resell at some of the higher amounts... and most are always sold out,  or are the last one available...

 Going back to my Sega Master System days... I had the 3d shutterglasses.    The game Maze Hunter 3d,  is quite good,  and visually really cool... though,
a little slow on the action front.    But  Missile Defense 3D ?   That game is Da BOMB!   (Literally ;)  )     Its worth the whole cost of a system + game + glasses + lightgun...
just for that game alone.

 Even beyond that... I always remembered the day, as a young tike,  that I walked up to a real  Continental Circus 3D  arcade machine,  that had the glasses on it.
I was Totally blown away by it.   The graphics may be simple... not shaded nice like Outrun...   but in 3D... it was a whole other experience!   Smoke, Tires, Pieces and parts... flying out of the screen on a regular basis.   The depth of the road into the screen was great too.    Its not the kind of 3d that is barely noticeable.. as some other 3d titles / films are like.

 Even in Missile Defense 3D,  if a Missile get too far,  it will pop out of the screen at you.    It wasnt as good as Continental... but it was a cool effect that hit home.. as it exploded right in front of you.


 Playstation had a similar problem... where Sony told all developers,  that it did not want any 2d based games.   Pretty much every game, had to be polygon based.   Luckily a few rare games like Lomax, got away with getting a  'pass'... but mostly,  its all fairly lame content,  IMO.   The systems 3d capability were not that impressive at all...  and without variety,  all games were almost all the same exact clone, of one another.


 Even Jeri Ellsworth,  was working on a low-cost  stand-alone  AR device,   after realizing that the masses were going to be hard to attract with such high costs.
Would have been cool to see what she could have came up with... had not the company funding, been yanked.    I think she had a good plan... but, I feel that the
real issue was with content.   Without good, addictive, content... even the best tech... is pretty much worthless to most people.

 Nintendo,  unlike Sega...  have lasted the storms... even with Inferior hardware... because they have had a master-class level game design crew... that puts out pretty much consistently good games... that pretty much everyone and anyone,   is attracted to,  and gets addicted to.

 Sega had some great hardware,  and some great moments in the Arcades...  but... these quarter munchers,  such as Afterburner II, and Outrun... were limited and simple... and didnt have the lasting power to push a home console system to success.  Heck, most of the consoles couldnt even produce their own arcade games... but when they could.. it was too little... too late.   And while Sonic had its moments in its original debut...  it still was  1/1000 th  the gameplay of the Mario series.

 The master system was similar.   It has a Few choice gems... such as   Shooting Gallery (might be the best lightgun game ever made),  Missile Defense 3D,  Golvelius,  Phantasy Star 1,  Astro Warrior,  Zillion,  and a few others...  but overall...   its limited library of mostly simplistic games,  was not as good "gamplay wise",  as the NES games... despite being more capable.

 Genesis wasnt much better.  Very few Sega exclusive / Originals by Sega.   Mostly Ports by Sega,  such as G&G.   Luckily,  there were some brilliant developers from other companies,  that were able to make the Genesis a decent and fun system.   (ThunderForce II,  Target Earth ... two of my top Epic Favorites)


 Id bet,  that a stand along  "Jacks" style "Tempest (TxK)"  + 360 degree spinner + mildly decent VR glasses setup...  would outsell the Riff 1000 to 1,  at a $100,  all day long.
That and or a Starwars arcade vector 3d version... that had a real 2 axis yoke...  =)   (Plus some additional engine abilities... such as trenches that bobbed and weaved in different directions and paths...)


 The real key in VR,  is that single game... that people cant live without.   Not in the games that are OK,  or are fun for a few hours... then get stale.


 Thats essentially what made the NES fly off the shelf in Record numbers:  SMB   as a pack-in game.
Everyone had to have it...  especially after a single play, at a friends house.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: yotsuya on August 30, 2017, 05:16:00 pm
Alright, VR and Ninty fanboys in the same thread! Add Game of Thrones and its like Facebook had a kid and dumped it here!!!
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pixel on August 30, 2017, 05:43:14 pm
Yes. The slap save is half the game.


 I think this is a Huge Misconception...  between a  "slap/nudge",   vs an actual  "death-save".

 The dreaded center drain,  does not happen all that often in a well designed,  well working,  and perfectly level... Pinball Machine.
When it does happen... some machines are designed in such a way... that with perfect timing and skill... you can bump the front of the machine forwards
when the ball hits the drains slanted backpiece... to pop the ball back into play.   Its very difficult to pull off in real life.   Also, I believe most actually Kick
the machines Leg,  to do this trick.

 Clearly,  thats Not half the game.


 However... a good Pinball player,  knows that they wont last long... if they do not know how to slap / nudge.   That is how Pinball is designed to be played... and IS
actually most of the games skill / gameplay.    Take that away... and you are not really playing Pinball.

 I think the problem has been  (unless they have fixed this in more recent times)...  that these developers have made the Nudge operate in a way that is not
correct to real pinball.   Where as... when used... its more like a Table-Slide,  than a slap nudge.    Furthermore... the ball seemed to simply just slide any direction,  even when
it was not touching anything raised on the playfield... which just isnt right.

 Most slap nudges,  dont really move the table much "visibly".    Its a kinetic transfer of mass/force... into the machine,  in more of a Vibrational force... rather than a long-travel push / slide.    If the ball is rolling down the center of the table... and you tried to slap-nudge the table... the balls course will not be altered.   But if the table is slap-nudged when the ball touches a Post,  bumper,  flipper,  or anything attached to the table...  then that force will transfer from the table to the object on the table... to the ball... and impart forces to alter the balls trajectory.

 Table-Slides... are an even different thing.   Its where one quickly slides the machine over like an inch or three... really quickly.   The ball thats rolling right down the center... is not going to be altered... but... since the table is slick,  and moved quickly...  its as if you did the old magic trick,  in which you pull a tablecloth out from under a full dinner set of dishware.   The table is slid over... and the ball keeps the same line... so it ends up hitting the flipper rather than draining down the now Moved center drain.   

 Table Slides,  unlike Nudges,  are pretty much a Cheat... and if the Tilt sensor is properly adjusted... it Should go off.   However,  many tables have been set up without the Tilt bob in place,  or have lowered the tilt bob sensitivity greatly...  so its often gotten away with,  by players whom are the typical NPD nerds,  that cant stand to lose due to skill failure.  To such people... its all about ego and winning at any and all costs.   Even badmouthing their own co-called "Friends"  over a stupid game,  thats supposed to be friendly / fun.


 I will clarify... in that while a Nudge Tap/slap  may seem similar to a table slide... you have to realize... that a table slide has to violently move the ENTIRE table over several inches... just to avoid a small degree ball drain.   Where even the lightest tap of a slap nudge,  done at the correct time and impact point... can Drastically alter a balls trajectory.

 If table slides were 50% of the game... most players would burn out on a 3 minute game.  lol.   Its not easy sliding a 350 lb machine, quickly, several inches in distance...  using the top area point of where the flipper hand positions are located at.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on August 30, 2017, 05:51:43 pm
Im not going to completely agree with Howard...  but I will say,  that he does have a good point in the argument.


 The cost of VR may be coming down... but its still quite up there for the masses (with everything from hardware to powerful PC in total).   

 Not only that,  but not everyone likes the typical VR style FPS gun games.    Especially since many of these are developed as Cross-Platform,  and
are not specifically balanced and tailored to,  VR.    As such... game difficulty may be too easy,  and too limited / simplistic.   Its generally too expensive
for companies to develop completely different platform specifics...  so if it is done... its usually the "short-cut"  method...  which creates a lackluster
experience.


 Does VR have to have the most Amazing realistic graphics to be good?   Not at all.     Go to any game store,  and you will see that any
Super Mario Bros.  2d  games... resell at some of the higher amounts... and most are always sold out,  or are the last one available...

 Going back to my Sega Master System days... I had the 3d shutterglasses.    The game Maze Hunter 3d,  is quite good,  and visually really cool... though,
a little slow on the action front.    But  Missile Defense 3D ?   That game is Da BOMB!   (Literally ;)  )     Its worth the whole cost of a system + game + glasses + lightgun...
just for that game alone.

 Even beyond that... I always remembered the day, as a young tike,  that I walked up to a real  Continental Circus 3D  arcade machine,  that had the glasses on it.
I was Totally blown away by it.   The graphics may be simple... not shaded nice like Outrun...   but in 3D... it was a whole other experience!   Smoke, Tires, Pieces and parts... flying out of the screen on a regular basis.   The depth of the road into the screen was great too.    Its not the kind of 3d that is barely noticeable.. as some other 3d titles / films are like.

 Even in Missile Defense 3D,  if a Missile get too far,  it will pop out of the screen at you.    It wasnt as good as Continental... but it was a cool effect that hit home.. as it exploded right in front of you.


 Playstation had a similar problem... where Sony told all developers,  that it did not want any 2d based games.   Pretty much every game, had to be polygon based.   Luckily a few rare games like Lomax, got away with getting a  'pass'... but mostly,  its all fairly lame content,  IMO.   The systems 3d capability were not that impressive at all...  and without variety,  all games were almost all the same exact clone, of one another.


 Even Jeri Ellsworth,  was working on a low-cost  stand-alone  AR device,   after realizing that the masses were going to be hard to attract with such high costs.
Would have been cool to see what she could have came up with... had not the company funding, been yanked.    I think she had a good plan... but, I feel that the
real issue was with content.   Without good, addictive, content... even the best tech... is pretty much worthless to most people.

 Nintendo,  unlike Sega...  have lasted the storms... even with Inferior hardware... because they have had a master-class level game design crew... that puts out pretty much consistently good games... that pretty much everyone and anyone,   is attracted to,  and gets addicted to.

 Sega had some great hardware,  and some great moments in the Arcades...  but... these quarter munchers,  such as Afterburner II, and Outrun... were limited and simple... and didnt have the lasting power to push a home console system to success.  Heck, most of the consoles couldnt even produce their own arcade games... but when they could.. it was too little... too late.   And while Sonic had its moments in its original debut...  it still was  1/1000 th  the gameplay of the Mario series.

 The master system was similar.   It has a Few choice gems... such as   Shooting Gallery (might be the best lightgun game ever made),  Missile Defense 3D,  Golvelius,  Phantasy Star 1,  Astro Warrior,  Zillion,  and a few others...  but overall...   its limited library of mostly simplistic games,  was not as good "gamplay wise",  as the NES games... despite being more capable.

 Genesis wasnt much better.  Very few Sega exclusive / Originals by Sega.   Mostly Ports by Sega,  such as G&G.   Luckily,  there were some brilliant developers from other companies,  that were able to make the Genesis a decent and fun system.   (ThunderForce II,  Target Earth ... two of my top Epic Favorites)


 Id bet,  that a stand along  "Jacks" style "Tempest (TxK)"  + 360 degree spinner + mildly decent VR glasses setup...  would outsell the Riff 1000 to 1,  at a $100,  all day long.
That and or a Starwars arcade vector 3d version... that had a real 2 axis yoke...  =)   (Plus some additional engine abilities... such as trenches that bobbed and weaved in different directions and paths...)


 The real key in VR,  is that single game... that people cant live without.   Not in the games that are OK,  or are fun for a few hours... then get stale.


 Thats essentially what made the NES fly off the shelf in Record numbers:  SMB   as a pack-in game.
Everyone had to have it...  especially after a single play, at a friends house.

Totally agree the price needs to come down before the masses will adopt and Nintendo could make some good VR games if they so chose, Dont think anyone would dispute those claims.

But most of the rest of that I would disagree with :p

The NES sold so well because it had a good QUALITY game Library, Mario was a huge part of that but there were so many others that made the NES a must have.
It beat the master system hands down.

But the Mega Drive, now that was a totally different Animal.
Sega were cooking on gas with that thing!
It had a awesome game line up and was very reasonably priced.
Lets face it the SNES v Genesis war was the only one that ever mattered or anyone ever cared about!
Its the thing of legends discussed by kids everywhere whichever side of the fence you sat on!

Sadly it was after that success that Sega got stupid and ultimately, repeatedly, screwed themselves.

Back to VR though....

There are games that are being developed for VR only use (Doom VR I am personally excited for!) Most games to start were a bit simplistic and gimmicky but that was quickly over taken by some much better thought out games.
Farpoint is the one for me but there are other non shooty games to :p
Now the ice has been broken loads of devs are now developing VR exclusives with well thought out mechanics.

I really hope Nintendo do join in the action, I want to play mario kart VR!
But I still dont think the switch has the balls for it!

 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on August 30, 2017, 11:19:05 pm
A "slap save" does not require a nudge.  Timing of the flipper(s) travel to meet the ball at the apex of it's curve must be nearly exact, thus requiring the "slap" of the button.  Any bit of energy transferred through the table as the ball makes contact would certainly facilitate the hand-off to the other flipper, but it's not a necessity.

I've played so long, I don't even think about it.  But tonight I saw myself do a bona-fide slap save (without the "slap"...kind of hard to slap a shoulder button...working on that.)  So yes, it absolutely works in VR pinball sims (at least the one I play.)

As for the Switch VR thing, it could be possible.  At 720p, the system would have over a million less pixels to "twiddle", compared to the more capable systems.  The real issue is whether there is enough processing "nut" in that machine to calculate the views properly at a high enough frame rate.  And even if it could, would it be able to give the user the same sense of "presence", given the low resolution?  Still very skeptical that the end result wouldn't be damaging to the reputation of VR, especially when one of the most anticipated titles for the unit needed to drop the output to 900p @30FPS when docked.  Great game design doesn't mean much if the hardware can't meet the "magic" numbers, without the visuals looking like a 3D N64 (or worse.)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: TOMMYGUN on August 31, 2017, 06:44:37 am
I have tried VR at the first convention of Occulus rift i was the test subject on the stage and yeah it blew me away, i told the audience it is kinda creepy, it is like hallucinating, you know it is not real but it is right there.
I played a demo of a canyon with a bridge leading to a castle, the bridge had a hole in it, i literally tried sidestepping the hole and forgot about the controller in my hands an amazing experience, when the demo was over i stepped into the hole and it was like falling in a dream you could feel yourself falling, no words to describe it.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on September 01, 2017, 10:52:54 am
Headsets will never cost $20, because by the time they can be manufactured that cheap and be better quality than the display on a gameboy, inflation will have driven that $20 up to the $50 range.

The first gen of plasma TV's were $50,000.  It took until the 4th generation of them to get into the $3k range.  Then cheaper technologies started to catch up (LCD) to the picture quality, and suddenly you had $500 32" LCD TV's with 720p resolution.  They weren't anything to write home to mom about, but they were a flat TV for $500!!  Another 4 generations later and that same set was $250, and a 1080p of the same size was $400.  Now you can get a 1080p 32" with better contrast and brightness than plasma and excellent color for $200.  A 50" LCD that rivals anything plasma could ever offer, has 4k resolution, wide color gamut, high dynamic range, insane brightness and contrast and is less than 2 inches thick at the thickest point and weighs in at 35 lbs can be had for $900.  Spend twice that and you get a picture that you could never achieve in the home and is between 1/4" and 3/4" in thickness.  And yet things are still getting better and cheaper.

TV "generations" are almost annual and have been for a long time, where VR generations look like (for now) they are going to be about on a two-three year cycle.  That may change as popularity increases.  But the thing to remember is the first plasma was out like 25 years ago.  VR is really only 2 years old in it's current form and only a year old in the consumer market.  We all enjoy cheap flat displays today, but even 10 years after consumers started demanding flat displays, it was far more expensive than what a Rift or Vive costs today (particularly if you adjust for inflation).  I saved and scrounged for my first 21" CRT monitor, I spent 2 years paying off my first 24" LCD monitor.  And I wasn't the only one, and today nobody bothers with a 15 or even 17" monitor for their computer, they all use the 21-27" screens. 

I bet even people like Howard scoffed at the idea of getting rid of his trusty 17"crt computer monitor back then, particularly when you saw how much an LCD cost (and how bad it looked in comparison).  And he wasn't alone in that thinking.  But at the same time, nobody ever said "Nobody will buy these until they are $20."  That is just ludicrous.

And make no mistake, VR WILL replace conventional displays in the future.  Yes, it is going to take a lot to get there, including the price coming down, the quality going way up, and the form factor getting WAY lighter and comfortable to wear, but it is coming.  It may not even be a headset, by the time it gets to that point it may start being an implant.  But it is coming.  Anyone who has used a high end setup can see why.

Finally, people spend hundreds of millions on high end GPU's today.  For $399 for a Rift with controllers, what does that matter compared to their $600 GPU and their $600 monitor?  This isn't as "out of reach" as people think, it just doesn't seem to have the value that would make it worth it.  When the tech exceeds what a 50" 4k LCD can do in terms of picture quality and convenience, nobody will blink before spending the same dime on something so much better in every other way.  And when they start getting to where they can buy "family packs" of these things for the price of a decent LCD TV, people will be hanging pictures above their fireplace again, not 50" LCD's.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on September 01, 2017, 12:33:28 pm
I don't feel like vr has much to do with the TV industry or the phone industry or anything else. Only real thing that is comparable maybe the video game consoles since that is essentially what VR is right now. You have to make sure people got enough use out of the old before you bring in the new, you have to make sure when you do make advancements it is still compatible with the old, you have to make the software side transfer over seamlessly to work with the new, if any competitor wants to jump in those games need to work with their headset\tracking\motion controls as well, or come at it in a completely different direction than his competitors.


Speaking of TV’s does anyone remember this commercial, the dream of owning something like that.

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doms-hzGPYA#)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on September 01, 2017, 12:44:56 pm
Speaking of TV’s does anyone remember this commercial, the dream of owning something like that.

All too well.  Those poor hipsters had to live in a crappy re-modeled storage container of a house to afford the set  :laugh2:
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on September 01, 2017, 02:05:28 pm
I don't feel like vr has much to do with the TV industry or the phone industry or anything else. Only real thing that is comparable maybe the video game consoles since that is essentially what VR is right now. You have to make sure people got enough use out of the old before you bring in the new, you have to make sure when you do make advancements it is still compatible with the old, you have to make the software side transfer over seamlessly to work with the new, if any competitor wants to jump in those games need to work with their headset\tracking\motion controls as well, or come at it in a completely different direction than his competitors.

Right now the fastest path to revenue is in the gaming industry, but I think VR will have a strong impact on a lot of other commercial areas, and as soon as the resolution is higher and the price is lower, I can definitely see these replacing televisions as the primary display. 

Think about it, right now tablets and phones are starting to eat into the TV market, and that will only get bigger.  The millennial generation doesn't watch TV only on the shared family screen any more, they watch on their phones and tablets from wherever they are, whether it is at home, in a car, on a train or bus, or even at work.  In 20 years, few people will be buying that 55" tv to hang above the fireplace. 

It is not much of a leap to move away from holding a phone or tablet for 2 hours at a time to mounting it in front of your face.  Particularly if you add technology to make it mix reality with what they are seeing.

TV's also have a strong tie to computer monitors as the display panel is almost 100% supplied by the consumer manufacturers of TVs.  As the TV market declines, computer monitors will get more expensive, all while VR units get better, cheaper, and more comfortable.  Add things like mixed reality and the fact that everything you see in VR is as 3D as real life is, and you suddenly have a path to replace monitors, both on personal and business environments, with VR headsets. 

This is not a new Nintendo, this is a new way to display the output from an electronic device, and while the initial path to enhancing this technology and making it cheaper and more readily available is in the enthusiast market, it won't be forever. 

It isn't going to happen tomorrow, or next year, but 15-20 years?  No question in my mind.  Every trend is pointing in that direction.  But if my only experience to date was a cardboard VR with a cheesy rollercoaster demo, I would never see the connection to any of this.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on September 01, 2017, 11:21:06 pm
6 months ago tested did an interview on the next generation of  Augmented Reality Glasses. They guy was saying he already stopped using his monitors and was using that full time. It better not be 15 years I want my monitors replaced with glasses in no more than 5 years.


! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cmPFsBOquk#)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ark_ader on September 01, 2017, 11:37:04 pm
I don't feel like vr has much to do with the TV industry or the phone industry or anything else. Only real thing that is comparable maybe the video game consoles since that is essentially what VR is right now. You have to make sure people got enough use out of the old before you bring in the new, you have to make sure when you do make advancements it is still compatible with the old, you have to make the software side transfer over seamlessly to work with the new, if any competitor wants to jump in those games need to work with their headset\tracking\motion controls as well, or come at it in a completely different direction than his competitors.

Right now the fastest path to revenue is in the gaming industry, but I think VR will have a strong impact on a lot of other commercial areas, and as soon as the resolution is higher and the price is lower, I can definitely see these replacing televisions as the primary display. 

Think about it, right now tablets and phones are starting to eat into the TV market, and that will only get bigger.  The millennial generation doesn't watch TV only on the shared family screen any more, they watch on their phones and tablets from wherever they are, whether it is at home, in a car, on a train or bus, or even at work.  In 20 years, few people will be buying that 55" tv to hang above the fireplace. 

It is not much of a leap to move away from holding a phone or tablet for 2 hours at a time to mounting it in front of your face.  Particularly if you add technology to make it mix reality with what they are seeing.

TV's also have a strong tie to computer monitors as the display panel is almost 100% supplied by the consumer manufacturers of TVs.  As the TV market declines, computer monitors will get more expensive, all while VR units get better, cheaper, and more comfortable.  Add things like mixed reality and the fact that everything you see in VR is as 3D as real life is, and you suddenly have a path to replace monitors, both on personal and business environments, with VR headsets. 

This is not a new Nintendo, this is a new way to display the output from an electronic device, and while the initial path to enhancing this technology and making it cheaper and more readily available is in the enthusiast market, it won't be forever. 

It isn't going to happen tomorrow, or next year, but 15-20 years?  No question in my mind.  Every trend is pointing in that direction.  But if my only experience to date was a cardboard VR with a cheesy rollercoaster demo, I would never see the connection to any of this.

I think you will find out that the reverse is more true today than 5 years ago.  Family time is becoming more important, communial gatherings and events are changing behaviorism in disfunctional family situations.  There are hundreds of studies out there, showing current technology including VR to be a catalyst for noncommunication anti social behaviour.  No trend is pointing to seclusion.  Group activities and team orientated skills will be the future market.  Family holidays and activities will be promoted via VR.  I think more people should sit down with a paper or book and learn, than try to sound authorative on a subject they have to clue about.  As It clearly shows.

Here is a brief start:

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=family+interaction+via+virtual+reality&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C29



For VR to be commercially successful and viable, there will have to be scenarios for unity goals.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: ark_ader on September 01, 2017, 11:43:41 pm
6 months ago tested did an interview on the next generation of  Augmented Reality Glasses. They guy was saying he already stopped using his monitors and was using that full time. It better not be 15 years I want my monitors replaced with glasses in no more than 5 years.


! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cmPFsBOquk#)

When you get eye strain, seizures, and memory loss, you will be back to your monitors and paying attention more closely like one inch away.  :lol
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on September 04, 2017, 12:04:49 am
anyone want to see how far we can get in  The Rise Of JumboTron in rec room. game is free, make sure you have wide enough space, it is where you want to be able to get on your knees and duck behind things.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on September 04, 2017, 03:28:05 am
I was just playing the other 2 quests, REC room has really come along from release. DEV's are doing a great job. Just with there was free move option instead of teleportation.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on October 19, 2017, 03:25:03 pm

No talk about the MSMR units being offered by the big 5 PC and tech manufacturers?  I think this is a huge development, and likely to bring VR into the mainstream.

I pre-ordered the Samsung Odyssey, so I did put my money where my mouth is.  I guess in a few weeks, I will see if that was such a good idea :)

When I can find a few spare minutes, I am currently playing with attaching the PSVR and Move controls to the PC.  Definitely an unpolished setup, but the Sony HMD has never looked so good as it does with 120hz and SS @ 2.0.  I'm really hoping the Samsung turns out to be a PSVR on steroids.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on October 19, 2017, 04:56:58 pm
DOOM VFR is out soon :)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on October 19, 2017, 06:00:36 pm
No talk about the MSMR units being offered by the big 5 PC and tech manufacturers?  I think this is a huge development, and likely to bring VR into the mainstream.

Early reviews have been mixed.

The big question mark is the tracking and how well it will work in the real world, particularly for the controllers.  If they can pull it off, it will definitely be something to look for in the market.  But if the tracking suffers, then the whole thing suffers.

The other question mark is going to be software availability.  Reportedly it won't be compatible with SteamVR right out of the gate, which walls it off from a huge swath of content.  If they can build in compatibility that would be a huge boon for these headsets.  The last thing VR needs is yet another proprietary limitation when it comes to software.

Personally, I'm talking a wait and see approach on the new crop of headsets coming down the pipe. Nothing yet looks like a surefire replacement for my current Vive setup.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on October 19, 2017, 06:01:08 pm
DOOM VFR is out soon :)

The Talos Principle VR just landed the other day, and the Gallery Episode 2 as well.  Some good content coming out these days.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on October 19, 2017, 09:08:06 pm
Early reviews have been mixed.

The big question mark is the tracking and how well it will work in the real world, particularly for the controllers.  If they can pull it off, it will definitely be something to look for in the market.  But if the tracking suffers, then the whole thing suffers.

That's pretty much the way I see it.  The biggest problem right now is the lack of trustworthy information, and really, the number of similar-but-not-the-same headsets.  I'm sure the basic implementation is consistent to maintain compatibility with MS's framework, but there are a few significant differences between models.  The Samsung unit is definitely a step up from the others.  Whether any of the differences are "under the hood" is anyone's guess at this point.

The headset tracking has been reported to be spot-on.  The controller tracking, at least in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2BmEqHQ8mQ), seems to be good.  The inverse kinematic prediction seems to work pretty well in situations where only the internal sensors are able to be used, and at least one developer has indicated that the tools provide enough information to make things pretty seamless.  When your hands are out of your view, precision positioning tends not to be very important anyway. I.e. in an archery game, it pretty much only needs to know that when you reach over and behind your head, you are after an arrow from your quiver.  And when that arrow is loaded into the bow, and pulled back too close to your face to be tracked, it would lock it to your cheek position.  While some might think this is "artificial", they probably haven't considered that many of the games they are playing already do this, if for no other reason than to allow players to focus on gameplay elements, rather than fiddly, mundane tasks.

Quote
The other question mark is going to be software availability.  Reportedly it won't be compatible with SteamVR right out of the gate, which walls it off from a huge swath of content.  If they can build in compatibility that would be a huge boon for these headsets.  The last thing VR needs is yet another proprietary limitation when it comes to software.

Major reputable sources are indicating SteamVR compatibility "before the holidays", which is a bit nebulous.  But it's already in beta so it's certainly going to happen.  The interesting thing is that the MSMR will have compatibility with SteamVR and the MS library, but the MS side of things will be walled off for users of other headsets.  But yes, I think the lack of available content is seriously stalling adoption at the moment, unless you just want a VR version of windows10, and to play virtual doll-house (although the built-in big-screen media room looks like a nice feature.)

The thing that really prompted me to check this out is the resolution bump.  Previous offerings are 1080x1200 per eye, while the new Samsung's AMOLED is 1440x1600 per eye.  The difference seems marginal when looking at these numbers, but it comes out to an extra ~1,000,000 pixels per eye, which is almost twice the resolution.  This means SDE will likely be virtually eliminated, distance rendered objects sharper and text much more readable. 

MS seems to be doing some trickery to get the system requirements down to handle higher resolutions as well.  One VR "guru", while testing the lowest-end model, indicated that he noticed a rendering artifact which might be telling.  He noted that during rapid head movements, a black bar would appear on the periphery of his vision, at the side opposite of the direction he was turning, and the full image would return when he stopped.  While this may be something to help out the "queasy crowd", it could very well be a simplified foveated rendering technique.  It's possible that the software is monitoring GPU and system loads, and applying this when necessary to reduce the area needing to be rendered.  Or, it could have just been a pre-release glitch  :lol  But it does seem like a reasonable approach.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on November 11, 2017, 12:21:27 pm
Feel like it is time to upgrade my 970 to a 1080 ti in the name of VR. I really want the ASUS ROG STRIX GeForce GTX 1080 TI  but those prices, on top of that Amazone is taxing now so add another $65 to that price just to twist that knife in a little more. I would be happy with the asus 1070 ti but even that is $500, feels like if you are going that high anyway might as well go all the way and 4k future proof your self a little more.
https://www.amazon.com/STRIX-GeForce-Gaming-Graphics-ROG-STRIX-GTX1080TI-11G-GAMING/dp/B06XY25VTC/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1510420654&sr=8-2&keywords=asus+1080+ti&dpID=51tSPgs6UPL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch (https://www.amazon.com/STRIX-GeForce-Gaming-Graphics-ROG-STRIX-GTX1080TI-11G-GAMING/dp/B06XY25VTC/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1510420654&sr=8-2&keywords=asus+1080+ti&dpID=51tSPgs6UPL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on November 11, 2017, 03:05:59 pm
I upgraded from a 1070 to a 1080 TI. The gains were good, I can increase the SS further to make most games clearer without lag. But I also found that some games are just horribly optimized.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on November 11, 2017, 04:32:35 pm
what did you do with the 1070
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on November 11, 2017, 06:01:36 pm
Sold it to my brother
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on November 18, 2017, 07:23:09 pm
Skyrim VR has landed and appears to receiving a positive reception if the comments on https://www.reddit.com/r/PSVR/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/PSVR/) are anything to go by.

I'm curious what impact this will have on VR adoption.  And I'm a little relieved, because if Bethesda's VR ports weren't well received, it could create impediment for VR adoption.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on November 19, 2017, 04:39:06 am
Never played Skyrim (never my kind of game) but I know it has a huge fan base.

Hope Doom VFR has a positive reception to though! Thats out in a few weeks :)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on November 30, 2017, 11:35:41 pm
Well, Doom VFR has launched to mediocre reception.  It's currently sitting at only 48% positive on Steam reviews, and getting slammed on Reddit.

It sounds like VR on PC was poorly implemented with a lot flawed design choices.  It could probably be salvaged, but I guess we'll see how much the Bethesda backs this one.

Kind of nervous to see what's going to happen with Fallout 4 next...
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on December 01, 2017, 01:23:22 am
My copy for PS4 should be landing today so ile get back to you over the weekend with my thoughts....
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on December 01, 2017, 10:11:08 am
They rereleased Doom for PS4 with VR?  Hm.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on December 01, 2017, 10:55:55 am
Yeah
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on December 01, 2017, 03:18:13 pm
They rereleased Doom for PS4 with VR?  Hm.

Not the full Doom.  It's a spin off title, Doom VFR.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on December 08, 2017, 05:36:56 am
Sorry about the late reply regarding DOOM.

Combination of Amazon delivering late, My birthday and a 3D printer got in the way of me having a play.

So I had 20 mins with it this morning before I started feeling queasy so it would be unfair for me to give a full on review at this point, But my initial thoughts are disappointed.

If I compare it to Farpoint it is no where near as smooth or nice to control, The guns do not seem to aim as well and the bouncing around makes me queasy and seems unnecessary.
Ile give it another go over the weekend with a full stomach and see if I can get into it a bit more for a fairer assessment but atm its not great....
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on December 08, 2017, 06:55:41 am
Man Im really hoping Fallout VR next Tuesday isn't a waste of 60 bucks...
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on December 08, 2017, 07:00:43 am
The daft thing is about it is that Farpoing nailed it.
The controls etc were damn near perfect it was a winning formula.

So why have all the other games not rolled with it?

Go back to the Original DOOM, and all the other games of the same era used the same controls.

Duke Nukem, Quake etc.

If it aint broke dont fix it....
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on December 08, 2017, 08:09:47 am
Titch, have you played with the HTC Vive at all?
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on December 08, 2017, 09:58:59 am
Sadly not mate.
I dont really do PC gaming anymore (dont have the room) and neither do any of my buds lol
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on December 08, 2017, 11:52:55 am
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/211/614/e93.jpg)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Loafmeister on December 13, 2017, 05:56:37 pm
Tried Fallout 4 VR.  Not a good start, a wonky launch with a few bugs:

1) anyone on steamVR beta couldn't enter their name
2) bug made the game very blurry on many PC's (caused by bug matching your desktop rez)

To their credit, Bethesda (and Valve) fixed both bugs within a day.  There are other bugs but overall, it's pretty good.  Personally I was more looking forward to Skyrim but gotta wait a while for that one.  IT def smells of portitis but still, nice to see a full AAA game on the Vive/Rift (Rift owners beware, it's not made to work with touch controllers so some frustrations abound)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on December 13, 2017, 06:43:23 pm
Yeah, Im trying to like the game but its not going so well. I dont feel immersed at all.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Rockstead on December 14, 2017, 07:50:55 am
I have a PS4 Pro, is it worth going for the VR setup? I often hear the Oculus or Vibe is much better, so I wasn’t sure it was worth investing in the PSVR when I can put that money towards one of the PC devices, is it that much better? Also I believe the PSVR is getting a $100 reduction, at least in Canada.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on December 14, 2017, 07:59:39 am
I have a PS4 Pro, is it worth going for the VR setup? I often hear the Oculus or Vibe is much better, so I wasn’t sure it was worth investing in the PSVR when I can put that money towards one of the PC devices, is it that much better? Also I believe the PSVR is getting a $100 reduction, at least in Canada.

The PSVR is getting cheaper by the days, If its your first VR experience then the PSVR will work fine. Ive tried all 3 and the only thing the VIVE has over the PSVR is room scale and the controller are more precise.

Unless you have a VR ready PC I would just go with the PSVR. You're looking at at least 1500$-2000$ just to get a mid end PC and VIVE setup.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on December 14, 2017, 11:12:35 am
I have a PS4 Pro, is it worth going for the VR setup? I often hear the Oculus or Vibe is much better, so I wasn’t sure it was worth investing in the PSVR when I can put that money towards one of the PC devices, is it that much better? Also I believe the PSVR is getting a $100 reduction, at least in Canada.

The PSVR is getting cheaper by the days, If its your first VR experience then the PSVR will work fine. Ive tried all 3 and the only thing the VIVE has over the PSVR is room scale and the controller are more precise.

Unless you have a VR ready PC I would just go with the PSVR. You're looking at at least 1500$-2000$ just to get a mid end PC and VIVE setup.

What he said.

I have the PSVR and enjoy using it.
Get far point for it with the gun if you buy one.
Hands down the best game ive played on it!
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on December 14, 2017, 12:41:18 pm
I have a PS4 Pro, is it worth going for the VR setup? I often hear the Oculus or Vibe is much better, so I wasn’t sure it was worth investing in the PSVR when I can put that money towards one of the PC devices, is it that much better? Also I believe the PSVR is getting a $100 reduction, at least in Canada.

I now own a Vive, a Samsung Odyssey and the PSVR.  Based on my experience with them, I'd say it depends greatly upon your current PC specs.  If you already have a fast PC, with at least a GTX 1060 (minimum), you may want to consider one of the WindowsMR devices.  You just missed a sale at the MS store where you could have gotten the Lenovo for $199.

But if you are just looking to get your feet wet with VR, and already have the PS4Pro, the PSVR is a good way to do it.  All have their pros and cons, but after using the Odyssey, I have a hard time going back to the PSVR.  Likewise, after using the tracking system of the Vive, I have a hard time even attempting to play some games with the Odyssey.   The image quality on the Odyssey is much better than the Vive, but the SteamVR experience is still much less polished on WMR.  And, the tracking, while hugely better than the PSVR, still isn't as perfect as the Vive, which can interfere with how well certain games play, particularly those where swinging and throwing are required.  They work ok, but you always feel a bit handicapped by the controller tracking with those kinds of games.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on December 14, 2017, 04:44:19 pm
Oculus is even better than the vive with exception to the tracking, i don’t know at some points of time it will be butter smooth matching the vive and than when some patch comes down you will all of a sudden start getting different jankiness and studer.
Besides that everything is better than the vive from the comfort of wearing the headset to the better tracking controllers to oculus interface which has gotten a lot quicker and better than steam; they also have a lot of Oculus studio games and apps which are all basically the best things in VR right now; You can play them on vive but you will have to download oculus home.

I am waiting for something like the Pimax, higher field of view and higher resolution, also using vives tracking so that is good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne0cmvl8GqM&t=5s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne0cmvl8GqM&t=5s)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on December 15, 2017, 05:40:49 am
Don't have a reference for the Rift, but I hear that the "god rays" are worse than the Vive.  Given that the Vive is worse than the Odyssey, I'm not sure I could tolerate the Rift.  The PSVR is really the best of the bunch where optics are concerned.  Revive seems to work well with the Odyssey.  The new Oculus "home" looks pretty nice (from the videos), but I personally don't care much about about the launcher app.  I strap the gear to my head to play games, and the less "fluff" before I get to that point, the better.  The simple SteamVR floating window is lightweight, and gets the job done.
 
The only comfort issue I've had with the Vive is when my headphones rest on the cables, which eventually starts hurting the top of my head. Otherwise, it's what I would expect from having something strapped to your face.  The PSVR is better in this department as well, with the Odyssey being somewhere in the middle.

As for the Pimax, from what I have read, it's rendering at close to the WMR native resolution, and stretching the outer edges.  It's an interesting approach to the processing bottleneck. The expanded FOV sounds intriguing, but I am still a bit skeptical that the image distortion won't bring with it some nasty side effects for the user.

I don't see much higher actual resolutions being viable any time soon, due to processing bottlenecks.  Google is now talking about 20 megapixel per eye displays, which are a pipe dream with nothing capable of driving them.  Even if they could upscale lower-res content fast enough, it seems like it would only be an expensive cure for SDE.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on December 15, 2017, 06:00:00 am
At this point I would be happier with better game/performance optimization over resolution/detail....
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on December 15, 2017, 11:02:50 am
Quote
As for the Pimax, from what I have read, it's rendering at close to the WMR native resolution, and stretching the outer edges.  It's an interesting approach to the processing bottleneck. The expanded FOV sounds intriguing, but I am still a bit skeptical that the image distortion won't bring with it some nasty side effects for the user.

Well ya they cant just stretch the image out on release, not even sure why they are demoing people games like that... I dont know what you mean when you talk about processing bottleneck. I bought that 1080 ti and nothing has changed in VR for me from my overclocked 970... all that extra power just sitting there wasted.

As far as optimizing games play something like Robo Recall, you are running around a city and it renders and plays amazing and that was on my 970, it’s totally doable to make triple A games on mid range hardware.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on December 15, 2017, 12:02:45 pm
Well ya they cant just stretch the image out on release, not even sure why they are demoing people games like that... I dont know what you mean when you talk about processing bottleneck. I bought that 1080 ti and nothing has changed in VR for me from my overclocked 970... all that extra power just sitting there wasted.

Not sure how much research you have done on the upcoming Pimax specs, but that is not just how they are demoing the units.  It's the goal.  The units have a total resolution of 7,680 x 2,160, and even your 1080 Ti isn't enough to drive that sufficiently if they were addressing individual pixels at that res.  Thus the "bottleneck" and "tricks" to get past it.

They do have a similar version coming which doesn't use the stretched upscaling, but the stated minimum specs for this unit are (2) GTX 1080Ti cards, one for each display.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on December 15, 2017, 12:29:27 pm
Oculus is even better than the vive with exception to the tracking

Based on stats previously published from the Waltz of the Wizards devs, 2 camera Oculus tracking had roughly double the tracking loss of the 2 base-station setup of the Vive.  3 camera Oculus setups were almost on par with the Vive, and 4 camera setups had the least tracking loss of all configurations.

Although the next gen base stations should allow for more than just 2 which could yield even better results for whatever future SteamVR headsets come out.

Quote
Besides that everything is better than the vive from the comfort of wearing the headset

Unless you wear glasses.  The Vive is designed to accommodate glasses, the Rift not so much.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on December 15, 2017, 04:13:37 pm
not sure i would wear glasses on either headset, uncomfortable and you could end up scratching your vr lenses, everyone who complains that they have scratches on there headset is because they wear glasses. There is a company called VR lens lab that will make you costume persecution lens that you just screw into your headset, probably go that route.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on December 15, 2017, 05:19:09 pm
not sure i would wear glasses on either headset, uncomfortable and you could end up scratching your vr lenses, everyone who complains that they have scratches on there headset is because they wear glasses. There is a company called VR lens lab that will make you costume persecution lens that you just screw into your headset, probably go that route.

I've been using glasses with the Vive for over a year now.  No scratches, no discomfort.  :dunno
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on December 15, 2017, 07:37:43 pm
there is no difference between the vive and the rift design to accommodate glasses so you should be good than  :dunno
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Mike A on December 15, 2017, 10:24:19 pm
Costume persecution lenses?
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on December 15, 2017, 11:00:00 pm
there is no difference between the vive and the rift design to accommodate glasses so you should be good than  :dunno

The Vive's lenses have distance adjustment to move the lenses away from the eyes.  AFAIK, the Rift doesn't have that option.  The Vive also seems to offer a bit more room width-wise for glasses compared to the Rift.

At any rate, this is just mainly based on the general research and what seems to be a common thread from glasses users who have tried both headsets.

As an example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxWBIS6WdRY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxWBIS6WdRY)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: orion on December 16, 2017, 02:32:42 pm
Don't have a reference for the Rift, but I hear that the "god rays" are worse than the Vive.  Given that the Vive is worse than the Odyssey, I'm not sure I could tolerate the Rift.  The PSVR is really the best of the bunch where optics are concerned.  Revive seems to work well with the Odyssey.  The new Oculus "home" looks pretty nice (from the videos), but I personally don't care much about about the launcher app.  I strap the gear to my head to play games, and the less "fluff" before I get to that point, the better.  The simple SteamVR floating window is lightweight, and gets the job done.
 
The only comfort issue I've had with the Vive is when my headphones rest on the cables, which eventually starts hurting the top of my head. Otherwise, it's what I would expect from having something strapped to your face.  The PSVR is better in this department as well, with the Odyssey being somewhere in the middle.

As for the Pimax, from what I have read, it's rendering at close to the WMR native resolution, and stretching the outer edges.  It's an interesting approach to the processing bottleneck. The expanded FOV sounds intriguing, but I am still a bit skeptical that the image distortion won't bring with it some nasty side effects for the user.

I don't see much higher actual resolutions being viable any time soon, due to processing bottlenecks.  Google is now talking about 20 megapixel per eye displays, which are a pipe dream with nothing capable of driving them.  Even if they could upscale lower-res content fast enough, it seems like it would only be an expensive cure for SDE.

I have only tried a vibe with steam VR and don't know a lot about VR gaming. Part of my job however is creating Virtual tours, with stitched 360 panoramic pictures I take and 360 video. I know that 20mp per eye sounds crazy and would be somewhere around 6K per display, which some VR headsets can do. I don't know how the VR games are currently rendering and processing things, but what your describing for Pimax sounds kind of similar to me to some approaches that are being looked at to stream 360 video. It's all interesting stuff that's for sure.

https://code.facebook.com/posts/1126354007399553/next-generation-video-encoding-techniques-for-360-video-and-vr/
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on December 17, 2017, 11:24:09 am
I know that 20mp per eye sounds crazy and would be somewhere around 6K per display, which some VR headsets can do. I don't know how the VR games are currently rendering and processing things, but what your describing for Pimax sounds kind of similar to me to some approaches that are being looked at to stream 360 video. It's all interesting stuff that's for sure.

I think you may be confusing the gross pixel counts for 360 video, with display resolutions.  With 360 video, you only need to be concerned about the portion being sent to the headset, and even that is mostly pre-rendered.  The main challenge is the streaming of all of that data so it's there waiting to be dumped to the headset displays when needed.  I think the only 6K VR headsets are prototypes sitting in an R&D lab somewhere, with video being about the only thing which they are (currently) usable with.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: orion on December 17, 2017, 05:45:26 pm
I know that 20mp per eye sounds crazy and would be somewhere around 6K per display, which some VR headsets can do. I don't know how the VR games are currently rendering and processing things, but what your describing for Pimax sounds kind of similar to me to some approaches that are being looked at to stream 360 video. It's all interesting stuff that's for sure.

I think you may be confusing the gross pixel counts for 360 video, with display resolutions.  With 360 video, you only need to be concerned about the portion being sent to the headset, and even that is mostly pre-rendered.  The main challenge is the streaming of all of that data so it's there waiting to be dumped to the headset displays when needed.  I think the only 6K VR headsets are prototypes sitting in an R&D lab somewhere, with video being about the only thing which they are (currently) usable with.

Your right, I was confusing the pixel counts with display resolutions, I generally don't hear display resolutions described in terms of MP's. I deal mainly with sensors and glass, not displays. I also see the added difficulty with VR games, as it's being rendered on the fly.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: mimic on December 19, 2017, 01:22:10 pm

I now own a Vive, a Samsung Odyssey and the PSVR.

Wait... WHAT!?  :o From anti VR stance to a full convert! Welcome to the TRUE gamers club  ;D

Did you try Super HOT yet (what your opinion on that)? Btw Serious Sam VR series and Talos principle REALLY well done VR remakes for "only" $50! 5 games for ~$10 each, it's a real steal if you're into that type of games, highly recommended!
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on December 19, 2017, 03:25:54 pm
Wait... WHAT!?  :o From anti VR stance to a full convert! Welcome to the TRUE gamers club  ;D

Did you try Super HOT yet (what your opinion on that)? Btw Serious Sam VR series and Talos principle REALLY well done VR remakes for "only" $50! 5 games for ~$10 each, it's a real steal if you're into that type of games, highly recommended!

I don't believe I was ever actually "anti VR".   I just pointed out the hurdles it has to becoming mainstream, some of which are starting to erode.  At this point, it is what early computer/video gaming once was, and at some point in the future, I believe it will have the same level of adoption and technical sophistication as current video gaming has now.

Super HOT was one of the first titles I tried on the PC.  It was strange at first, but quickly became a favorite.  Even caught myself from falling a couple of times when I tried to stabilize myself against some of the (non-existent) scenery parts.

Bought Serious Sam 3: BFE shortly thereafter.   One of the best "Doom" style games in VR. 

Have been playing a bit of the free Echo Arena game through Revive on the Odyssey.  Absolutely amazing.

Also, Assetto Corsa and Project Cars 2 with VR and a proper driving rig will make you not want to race any other way.

And I can't forget BAMVR with Future Pinball.  Some tables are a little too intense for VR, as FP isn't optimized well, but most play very well.  I believe that VR is the future of pinball.  So much so, that I have all but lost interest in building a 2D monitor based pinball machine.  I imagine I still will build something, but only as a means to control what I see in VR with force feedback type effects, without the large monitor and backglass.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: mimic on December 19, 2017, 09:41:17 pm
I don't believe I was ever actually "anti VR".   I just pointed out the hurdles it has to becoming mainstream, some of which are starting to erode. 

I was kind of getting the vibe you are siding with the 3D TV and "novelty" crowd, I'm glad I misunderstood! Good to have an established member siding with the VR crowd.

Did you have the chance to try H3VR (Hot dogs, Horseshoes and Hand Grenades) yet? If so what did you think about the physics, realism? (No hands sucks for me)

EDIT: Thanks for the heads up regarding BAM VR. I had no idea there is anything else in pinball besides Pinball FX2 VR, which is absolutely awesome!
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Loafmeister on December 20, 2017, 12:03:03 am
Pinball in VR: Zaccaria is pretty good in VR, lots of tables and when on sale, pretty cheap.  Lot's of people don't like their DLC model. It's confusing (platinum err...) but once you "get" it, a pretty good deal (new tables are less then 2 bucks each).  Zaccaria tables are not the best in real life (late EM's or early SS's) but I think they are fun.  Word of warning: VR does require a DLC purchase, this is a flaw in their model but again, I think it's worth it.

Pinball being the future of VR: Possibly correct, though the social aspect of Pinball means my pincab will keep getting a lot of play for years to come (especially with more recent advances in reducing lag with VPX).  In saying that, the lag aspect is the biggest draw for VR so far, because, well, there just isn't any lag in VR!  I believe it has to do with VR using low persistant displays.  Big difference easily noticeable.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on December 22, 2017, 01:14:35 pm
PSVR down to $179 at Walmart....

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on December 22, 2017, 02:40:23 pm
PSVR down to $179 at Walmart....

Go on PBJ... Join the dark side ;)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Mike A on December 22, 2017, 03:00:27 pm
Cthulhu is the dark side.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on December 22, 2017, 03:14:27 pm
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171222/61a492427293f214f673c1136fa0c4be.jpeg)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on January 03, 2018, 07:55:33 pm
Oshit waddup
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: opt2not on January 03, 2018, 07:58:58 pm
Dayum! Those dumpster dives are really paying off!
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: yotsuya on January 03, 2018, 08:11:51 pm
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180104/a04290cd5dd23fd11e98007c76e193fe.jpg)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on January 04, 2018, 12:40:33 am
It was a gift.  Unfortunately it’s the “why do they even sell this” version without the camera... so now I’m on the hunt for a camera.  Still pretty pumped.  Would have been nice if Sony would have at least let me use it like a tv screen.  Soon....





Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: SNAAKE on January 04, 2018, 12:59:39 am
lolwut

I thought all of them came with the camera and a game. what are you supposed to with JUST the headset ???
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on January 04, 2018, 01:00:55 am
Pretend to be excited and cry on the inside.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on January 04, 2018, 02:03:48 am
so now I’m on the hunt for a camera.

I might be able to help you out with that. Sending PM.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on January 04, 2018, 03:51:40 am
Yeah I dont get the logic of selling the head set only....

Get yaself some move controllers to if you aint got em.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on January 04, 2018, 01:11:44 pm
Yeah I dont get the logic of selling the head set only....

I imagine it's for people who already own the camera.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on January 04, 2018, 01:27:55 pm
Yeah I dont get the logic of selling the head set only....

I imagine it's for people who already own the camera.

Yeah but I dont think anyone uses the PS camera
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on January 04, 2018, 01:32:59 pm
They sell the headset only version because they figured a bunch of PS4 owners already have the camera for some unknown reason.

PBJ: But yeah, like Titchgamer wrote, you'll want some move controllers as well.  You can use the DS4 for some games, but the Move controllers are better.

Also, an update on my buddy's kid who tried out mine a while back.  He's all in now, with the PSVR, Move controllers and the Farpoint gun bundle.  Looking forward to some Farpoint co-op now :)

I also just modded my racing rig with some Thrustmaster HOTAS controls.  I started playing with Elite Dangerous on the flat screen, just to familiarize myself with the controls and get set up.  Then I put on the Odyssey headset and was blown away.  It was an amazingly different experience which words can't adequately describe.  On the flat screen, I found myself struggling with the controls, but the feeling of sitting in the ship just made the maneuvers feel so natural that the controls just "clicked" in my head.  So much easier.  Being able to watch the ships out the windows by just moving your head, no matter where they happen to pass, makes the dogfights feel very real.   Utterly impressed by ED, and the price was ridiculously cheap (~$8 Winter sale!)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Mike A on January 04, 2018, 01:45:19 pm
You paid for ED? Usually men pay money to prevent ED. ;D
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on January 04, 2018, 04:45:39 pm
You paid for ED? Usually men pay money to prevent ED. ;D

Based on the amount of time some men put into the game, I'm not sure the end result of either would be different in that respect :). 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on January 04, 2018, 05:31:42 pm
They sell the headset only version because they figured a bunch of PS4 owners already have the camera for some unknown reason.

PBJ: But yeah, like Titchgamer wrote, you'll want some move controllers as well.  You can use the DS4 for some games, but the Move controllers are better.

Also, an update on my buddy's kid who tried out mine a while back.  He's all in now, with the PSVR, Move controllers and the Farpoint gun bundle.  Looking forward to some Farpoint co-op now :)

I also just modded my racing rig with some Thrustmaster HOTAS controls.  I started playing with Elite Dangerous on the flat screen, just to familiarize myself with the controls and get set up.  Then I put on the Odyssey headset and was blown away.  It was an amazingly different experience which words can't adequately describe.  On the flat screen, I found myself struggling with the controls, but the feeling of sitting in the ship just made the maneuvers feel so natural that the controls just "clicked" in my head.  So much easier.  Being able to watch the ships out the windows by just moving your head, no matter where they happen to pass, makes the dogfights feel very real.   Utterly impressed by ED, and the price was ridiculously cheap (~$8 Winter sale!)

How is the performance playing Elite Dangerous and the Odyssey headset? With the Vive and a 1080 Ti card I was going nuts tweaking the settings trying to get a clear picture and still keeping 90 FPS.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on January 05, 2018, 11:21:02 am
How is the performance playing Elite Dangerous and the Odyssey headset? With the Vive and a 1080 Ti card I was going nuts tweaking the settings trying to get a clear picture and still keeping 90 FPS.

I'm only using a 1070 and an i7-7700.  Performance seems fine while in the ship and during docking.  While in the bay I noticed a couple of stutters, but no show stoppers.  To be honest, I haven't tried to do any tweaking to see if it can be improved.  The Steam layer is still beta, so it's not yet perfect.

The added resolution of the Odyssey makes a big difference.  Text is very readable without insane levels of supersampling.  I think this is where the lower resolution headsets run into issues.  Supersampling can make the lower resolution displays more readable, but it requires way more graphics horsepower to do what a higher resolution display can do almost natively.  There are also some in game tweaks some users employ in ED to make text more readable on the pentile displays, such as changing the text color to green (more subpixels.)  But I haven't found the need to do that with the Odyssey.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on January 05, 2018, 02:53:56 pm
HTC tweeted out a Vive teaser for CES 2018 that implies it might be getting a visual upgrade: https://uploadvr.com/htc-vive-teasing-vr-resolution-upgrade-ces-conference/

I'm hoping this means the possibility of better resolution and/or better lenses.  I guess we'll know in a few days...
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on January 08, 2018, 06:23:14 pm
HTC tweeted out a Vive teaser for CES 2018 that implies it might be getting a visual upgrade: https://uploadvr.com/htc-vive-teasing-vr-resolution-upgrade-ces-conference/

I'm hoping this means the possibility of better resolution and/or better lenses.  I guess we'll know in a few days...
78% increase in resolution, up to 1400 x 1600 per eye now.  And built in headphones, a more comfortable system to keep it on your head, and dual cameras and mics in front.  There will be an option to just buy the HMU and use your existing lighthouses and controllers.  It will support 4 lighthouses though, and be fully backwards compatible. 

No mention of pixel spacing and potential reduction of the screen door effect though, something I think is just as important as a resolution increase, at least for gaming.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on January 08, 2018, 06:57:11 pm
No mention of pixel spacing and potential reduction of the screen door effect though, something I think is just as important as a resolution increase, at least for gaming.

Since it's the same res as the Odyssey, I'd imagine the visual fidelity and SDE will be similar.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on January 09, 2018, 10:41:42 am
Essentially, it's an Odyssey, with lighthouse tracking and front facing cameras which can be used for something other than tracking.

SDE is definitely very much improved.  Anyone who says it isn't, must be blind (and believe me, there have been a few Vive fanbois who take this position.)  But now that the Vive Pro has the same displays, I expect their views to change on the subject.

It's going to be a hard sell against the Odyssey if the price ends up being almost double, but I do consider the Pro to be the ultimate home VR setup.  Given that I already own a Vive, if someone came up with a way to attach a Vive Tracker to the Odyssey HMD, it would be pretty much the same system.

EDIT:  It has supposedly been confirmed that the Pro still uses the same lenses as the original Vive.  If this is true, the Odyssey could still have a visual edge, as there is considerably less "god ray" effect on the Odyssey.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on January 09, 2018, 11:40:12 am
Kinda disappointing if they are using the same lenses as the original Vive.  While not a deal-breaker, having to put up with the same level of god-rays is unfortunate.

I've also been reading mixed information on whether or not the headphones are removable.  The Vive Pro page says they are, but there's a RoadToVR article that claims they are permanently attached.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Loafmeister on January 09, 2018, 12:21:35 pm
yes and there are some that state the lenses are different, while roadtovr state it was confirmed it's the same lenses. Who's right?  We will find out soon enough I guess.

Certainly the price point will determine if I'm upgrading the HMD.  I dunno, I'd pay $399 USD for the HMD on its own but I suspect it will be $499.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: mimic on January 09, 2018, 09:00:42 pm
Personally I am waiting to see if the Pimax 8K will pan out to be the real deal. I don't care if it looks like a hammerhead shark, I need bigger FOV! No SDE will be a nice bonus as well, if by then knuckles will get released and it has good reviews, I'll sell my Rift!
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on January 09, 2018, 09:36:52 pm
Certainly the price point will determine if I'm upgrading the HMD.  I dunno, I'd pay $399 USD for the HMD on its own but I suspect it will be $499.

Considering the sticker shock that happened the first time 'round, I wouldn't be surprised if this thing lists potentially as high as $999.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Loafmeister on January 09, 2018, 11:12:15 pm
Someone on Reddit reported they saw a listing equivalent to “$1200” USD.  I guess they mean Pro as in iPad Pro, so bigger and more expensive.  Even if they mean the bundle with lighthouse 2.0 and controllers that probably means the hmd on its own will sellfor what, $700?  All together now “F-DAT”
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on January 11, 2018, 11:30:58 am
Resident Evil 7 been collecting dust for days... Playstation camera supposed to arrive today...  I've been vibrating for a week.   ;D 

Having watched Ebay for a few days, I've found the Playstation Move Motion controllers tend to be cheaper if you buy them singly as part of a bundle with a PS3 game.  Supposedly I got some NOS controller with a PS3 camera and game I don't want for $25 shipped.... We'll see what actually arrives.



Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on January 11, 2018, 12:25:54 pm
Someone on Reddit reported they saw a listing equivalent to “$1200” USD.  I guess they mean Pro as in iPad Pro, so bigger and more expensive.  Even if they mean the bundle with lighthouse 2.0 and controllers that probably means the hmd on its own will sellfor what, $700?  All together now “F-DAT”

Estimates seem to be all over the map.  One report claimed the headset would sell standalone for $349 USD.  Meanwhile, other e-tailers have been putting in placeholder prices of ~$1000 USD or so when listing it on their sites.

Guess we'll find out in time...
Title: Q
Post by: Loafmeister on January 11, 2018, 01:49:53 pm
If they are expecting to ship Q1 (end of March), then I suspect we will get the chance to pre-order before the end of this month.  If it's $350, I'm in.  To be honest, if it's less than $500 USD, I'm probably in.  I'm hopeless...
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on January 11, 2018, 07:48:39 pm
man if that Vive pro launched with the Knuckles and the new tracking boxes it would be like the first launch day of VR all over again. Not sure what this talk about selling the headset separate way before the package, alto of people do not own a vive... I think they should wait for Knuckles is ready before selling and have a full and complete set just like they did for vive 1 that would be the most explosive news for VR.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on January 11, 2018, 08:39:44 pm
Sadly no knuckles with the Vive Pro.  Apparently they are going to have an updated version of the Vive wands though (when they release the full kit).
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on January 11, 2018, 09:28:15 pm
boooooo just being lazy and making more $ off the early adapters.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/tDpnUNp2Zo1Xy/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on January 11, 2018, 11:03:21 pm
Well, there went almost 5 hours of my life.  It’s incredible a system I bought so many years ago is capable of all that.

Still working up the nerve to play Resident Evil.  That space station zombie game demo was already crazy intense.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on January 12, 2018, 12:46:50 am
Still working up the nerve to play Resident Evil.

Maybe get some Depends before you try that one  :lol

The whole time I played it, it felt like someone was twisting a butter knife in my gut.   Good stuff!
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on January 12, 2018, 09:52:55 am
Well, watching a creature in 3D that's chasing you around with the intent to kill you, even though you know it's not real, is quite an experience.  I'll admit I was wrong about this current generation of VR.  Previously, I had only seen the setups with the cameras on tripods and someone walking around an alien planet bored out of their minds on a square waving around wands.  I was in a swivel office chair and there were moments I completely lost myself in the various games.

I imagine these setups will be wireless soon, but I felt like the graphic capabilities were far enough along that the developers can focus on convincing game play.


Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on January 12, 2018, 11:40:58 am
The whole time I played it, it felt like someone was twisting a butter knife in my gut.   Good stuff!

I had a similar feeling playing both Paranormal Activity and Narcosis.  Horror games just have this overly uncomfortable feeling in VR, almost like they are too immersive at times.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on January 12, 2018, 11:51:06 am
Well, watching a creature in 3D that's chasing you around with the intent to kill you, even though you know it's not real, is quite an experience.  I'll admit I was wrong about this current generation of VR.  Previously, I had only seen the setups with the cameras on tripods and someone walking around an alien planet bored out of their minds on a square waving around wands.  I was in a swivel office chair and there were moments I completely lost myself in the various games.

I imagine these setups will be wireless soon, but I felt like the graphic capabilities were far enough along that the developers can focus on convincing game play.

Woohoo another convertee :D
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on January 12, 2018, 11:51:50 am
I imagine these setups will be wireless soon, but I felt like the graphic capabilities were far enough along that the developers can focus on convincing game play.

TPCast has been available for the Rift/Vive for a little bit now, and HTC has revealed their own wireless solution for release later this year.

I suspect in the next-gen of VR headsets wireless could become the norm.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on January 12, 2018, 11:52:57 am
Woohoo another convertee :D

All we need now is Howard to jump on board. ;)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on January 12, 2018, 12:40:59 pm
I think Moss on PS VR Demo Disc 2 was the most mind blowing.  I was on the last puzzle, where you have to spin a tall vertical cylinder around, and I was trying to figure out how it worked.  So I leaned forward and looked around the edge... and saw inside the cylinder.  It was freaking unreal.  Making that mouse run around, with very convincing graphics, caused several moments of disassociation.

Tiny Trax had a similar moment when I looked down and saw my car racing around underwater where my feet should have been.

And the first space zombie attack on The Persistence.  Genuine fear.

Stuff like Thumper and Rez... eh... cool but felt like they'd get old quick.  The Call of Duty Jackal thing was fun.

Youtube VR was pretty neat.  Enjoyed the Bjork Stonemilker video.  A lot of the other stuff got a, "meh, I've been to the Omni theater before" reaction.


Looking forward to those Move controllers arriving....



 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on January 12, 2018, 01:33:52 pm
Theres a Free PSVR game in the store at the moment btw if you are a PSplus member.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on January 12, 2018, 02:11:31 pm
Theres a Free PSVR game in the store at the moment btw if you are a PSplus member.

I've noticed one every month now for a few months.  Hopefully, it's now a "thing"!
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on January 12, 2018, 02:13:20 pm
Hope so :)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on January 13, 2018, 06:38:16 pm
I can’t  make it 5 minutes in Resident Evil.  I’ve introduced my wife and two friends to the headset and everyone is in shock.  Nobody looks cool playing it, though.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: markc74 on January 13, 2018, 07:18:24 pm
Resident evil is excruciating at first. I played thru the first hour in normal (non vr) mode to get a heads up on the jump scares then restarted it in Vr. Still shook me. Insane experience and not one you can easily describe until you’ve played it.

TLDR: a totally different experience. And one i didn’t expect to grab me like it did.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: mimic on January 14, 2018, 07:51:18 pm
  I’ve introduced my wife and two friends to the headset and everyone is in shock.

Shocked how?
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on January 15, 2018, 01:58:18 am
  I’ve introduced my wife and two friends to the headset and everyone is in shock.

Shocked how?

Think he means scared lol
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Howard_Casto on January 15, 2018, 02:19:17 am
Thought you wierdos might get some use out of this. 

https://www.amazon.com/Acer-AH101-D8EY-Windows-Wireless-Controllers/dp/B075PVLN2P/ref=pd_sim_147_1?tag=slickdeals&ascsubtag=516ab4b6f9c311e7aeedeef2e093f6790INT&_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B075PVLN2P&pd_rd_r=RXPBY38275WTNACZD4KW&pd_rd_w=SOrWQ&pd_rd_wg=hLkwD&psc=1&refRID=RXPBY38275WTNACZD4KW (https://www.amazon.com/Acer-AH101-D8EY-Windows-Wireless-Controllers/dp/B075PVLN2P/ref=pd_sim_147_1?tag=slickdeals&ascsubtag=516ab4b6f9c311e7aeedeef2e093f6790INT&_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B075PVLN2P&pd_rd_r=RXPBY38275WTNACZD4KW&pd_rd_w=SOrWQ&pd_rd_wg=hLkwD&psc=1&refRID=RXPBY38275WTNACZD4KW)

Not top shelf, but 1440 per eye and around 200 bucks, controllers included.  If it gets below 150 I might buy one just for the two or three things a vr headset is actually useful for.  (Vr pinball, racing games, ect.)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on January 18, 2018, 11:44:09 am
Not top shelf, but 1440 per eye and around 200 bucks, controllers included.  If it gets below 150 I might buy one just for the two or three things a vr headset is actually useful for.  (Vr pinball, racing games, ect.)

I'd be surprised if they got that low on a stand-alone sale.  But keep an eye on your local Craigslist.  Lots of computers sold this holiday season with VR headsets included.  Reports are that a lot of them are making their way to CL from the owners selling them to reduce the net cost of the systems.  Word is that the cheap prices on Amazon are private sellers doing this as well,

As for what they are "useful" for, I think you will find a lot of your predisposed notions are flawed, once you actually start using one.  Just don't base everything on an Acer unit if you get one.  It really is the bottom end of the technology at the moment.  While I haven't tried one, the consensus seems to be that the Lenovo is the best of the low-end units.  Also make sure your PC is up to the task before you even consider getting a headset.   
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on January 18, 2018, 12:37:30 pm
As for what they are "useful" for, I think you will find a lot of your predisposed notions are flawed, once you actually start using one.

This was my experience as well.  Before getting VR, I figured it would be mostly useful for seated stuff like cockpit games.

After trying it, it opened my eyes to the fact that pretty much every game genre can translate to VR.  I'm still salivating at the prospect of 4x games eventually making their way to VR.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on January 18, 2018, 10:01:19 pm
Damn Sony and their “nothing will charge our devices except 1 of the 2 USB ports on the system.”

However, I did indeed get a sealed box set of Sports Champions with a Move controller and ps3 camera for $25 shipped.  Anyone need a ps3 camera?    :lol
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on January 19, 2018, 04:26:46 am
Damn Sony and their “nothing will charge our devices except 1 of the 2 USB ports on the system.”

It's a bit of a crapshoot, but if you have one of the higher current android tablet chargers with a USB A female port, these will usually kick them over.  Make sure you use the original cable for the best chance of it working. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on January 19, 2018, 09:20:26 am
I've also read that a "charge only" cable with the data pin grounded out will make them charge on anything.  I've got one of those Motorola 'TurboCharge' adapters and it'll do the Dualshocks but not the Moves.

Anyway, got to play with the Move controllers about 10 minutes.  Even more disturbing than before.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on January 19, 2018, 10:59:31 am
Now that I have a house again, and a room for an office, I dusted off the Vive and got it set up.  After nearly a year in a box, the wands still had a full charge!  Fired it up and played some space pirate trainer, which has improved a bit in the last year.  The new vive home stuff is pretty cool.  SDE is still annoying as hell and the resolution definitely needs an upgrade, but if I had a wishlist, it would start with wireless at the top, better optics next, and resolution third.  Comfort would probably be fourth, which would include the audio, so the Pro will address two of those items and I will probably waste my money on it, as long as it is under $700.  Hoping for $500 or less.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on January 19, 2018, 11:20:06 am
From Other Suns will be free this weekend in a few hours on Oculus store. I here good things, I am sure you can play it on Vive with revive.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Loafmeister on January 19, 2018, 12:31:59 pm
A friend of mine is selling me his PSVR with camera and res evil 7 for a decent price so I guess I didn't have enough with just Rift/Vive lol.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on January 19, 2018, 02:15:43 pm
A friend of mine is selling me his PSVR with camera and res evil 7 for a decent price so I guess I didn't have enough with just Rift/Vive lol.

Welcome to the PSVR club!
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on January 19, 2018, 02:36:38 pm
welcome to the worse resulation, worse motion controls and only front facing tracking club?
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on January 19, 2018, 04:48:50 pm
welcome to the worse resulation, worse motion controls and only front facing tracking club?

Wrong on many counts.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on January 19, 2018, 10:07:27 pm
welcome to the worse resulation, worse motion controls and only front facing tracking club?

Wrong on many counts.

Have you played the Vive yet?
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Howard_Casto on January 19, 2018, 11:33:29 pm
As somebody that doesn't have a dog in this fight let me just say that so long as both headsets are at least serviceably good (they are), tech specs are completely irrelevant.  The cost, ease of use, accessibility and the available software library is what counts.  Seeing as how the PSVR is only 200 bucks, has all of the AAA VR titles that the pc does only running on an inexpensive ps4 and you just plug it in an it works, I'd say the PSVR is probably the clear winner for the time being. 

If you think I'm wrong, just look at the entire history of the gaming industry, Nintendo portables in particular.  They were always the weakest, but because they were usually slightly cheaper and had better games, they've dominated that market since the original Gameboy.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on January 20, 2018, 01:59:47 am
Howard gets it.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on January 20, 2018, 04:24:28 am
As somebody that doesn't have a dog in this fight let me just say that so long as both headsets are at least serviceably good (they are), tech specs are completely irrelevant.  The cost, ease of use, accessibility and the available software library is what counts.  Seeing as how the PSVR is only 200 bucks, has all of the AAA VR titles that the pc does only running on an inexpensive ps4 and you just plug it in an it works, I'd say the PSVR is probably the clear winner for the time being. 

If you think I'm wrong, just look at the entire history of the gaming industry, Nintendo portables in particular.  They were always the weakest, but because they were usually slightly cheaper and had better games, they've dominated that market since the original Gameboy.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180120/77e545a3cb5bb34ce387edb1ae4e561b.jpg)

And sadly no not had a chance to play with a vive lol
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Loafmeister on January 20, 2018, 09:10:47 pm
Picked it up, will hopefully try it tomorrow.  I flipped res evil 7 for the farpoint bundle, gotta have that AIM controller

From what I understand, sure the resolution of the games are quite low res compared to the PC version, but many who've tried both and the move controllers are certainly substandard, but the comfort of the HMD and the quality optics have many really liking it.  For me, at the end of the day, you know Sony will have some exclusives that I will want to play.

PRice: well Howard you do get it for sure, but the experience is more than $200 for the avg user.  For total value for the VR hardware, the Rift is probably a better "deal". No denying the potential for Sony $$$ will result in the best games and of course their total user base is a win... but right now, Lone Echo, F4VR and several other Rift and Vive games would disagree with that software argument. I guess time will tell.

edited: it's called AIM controller, not the stand "move". Doh!
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on January 20, 2018, 09:29:16 pm
I enjoyed the PSVR, I think its far more comfortable then the Vive. I only played it at the launch so I never got to see Farpoint but looking at the Youtube reviews it seems really detailed.

Having a few friends that started off with the PSVR then trying the Vive only led to them selling and upgrading.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on January 21, 2018, 09:32:50 am
I would prob get a vive as well if it was a option for me.

However I no longer have room for a gaming PC, nor do I have the funds for a full setup so I will have to wait until I have a bigger house to experience the PC versions.

But as ive said several times I am more than happy with what the PSVR delivers and its price tag is certainly fair.
Would like to see it a bit cheaper but I can say that about everything!
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on January 21, 2018, 12:02:49 pm
Thus far, not impressed with the move controllers.  Any particularly good games that use it?

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on January 21, 2018, 01:10:49 pm
Thus far, not impressed with the move controllers.  Any particularly good games that use it?

Rush of blood aint bad.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on January 22, 2018, 01:00:23 pm
"Good Enough" drives the mainstream, and so I agree with Howard that for the mainstream consumer, the hardware just has to be good enough to be fun to play in order for it to sell.  But his statement really only applies to the mainstream, aka the "Casual Gamer".  And it suggests that the only thing that really matters is how well something sells.

There are always people who care enough to want better and will spend the money on it.  The Vive blew me away the first time I used it, but I also immediately wanted a higher resolution, less screen door effect, better framerates, and better optics.  And I am willing to spend money to get it.  I know that in order for there to be a third generation of VR, there has to be a cheap alternative, but that cheap alternative is not for me, so the better specs DO matter.  If they didn't, you wouldn't have PS and XBOX still developing high end consoles because they didn't sell like Nintendo did.  And look at the whole story with Nintendo - for a long time specs didn't matter, but I don't even see Nintendo on the store shelves any more, only PS and XBOX.  Is it possible that by not trying to compete on the cutting edge that people lost interest?

Besides, something has to set the bar or nobody would buy it at $200.  People will drop $200 on PSVR because they want the experience of a Vive or Rift but can't or won't spend the money.  $200 seems cheap in comparison.  If PSVR was the gold standard in VR and the most expensive, it would be too much and people would be waiting for the $100 option. 

And I think the buzz created by the top end devices made people want to try out the PSVR.  There always has to be something that gets people excited and, to put it bluntly, makes people envious.  It's what drives the mainstream to want to spend money on entry level stuff.  The converts here who dipped a toe in with the PSVR would never have done it if a bunch of people weren't raving about the experience of the top end.




Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Mike A on January 22, 2018, 01:16:42 pm
Quote
And look at the whole story with Nintendo - for a long time specs didn't matter, but I don't even see Nintendo on the store shelves any more, only PS and XBOX.  Is it possible that by not trying to compete on the cutting edge that people lost interest?

The Switch is the fastest selling console in US history over its first 10 months. The record holder before that for first year sales was the Wii.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on January 22, 2018, 01:32:24 pm
So Nintendo claims.  I'm in disbelief.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on January 22, 2018, 01:48:11 pm
Speechless. (http://fortune.com/2018/01/20/nintendo-stock-labo-switch/)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Howard_Casto on January 22, 2018, 02:35:22 pm
You shouldn't be.  It's an extremely innovative idea, it seems educational, so parents and teachers will like it, ect.  Nintendo knows what they are doing.  When you think Nintendo doesn't know what they are doing, rest assured, it's just that you don't understand it. 

Their consoles rarely sell poorly and that is mainly due to the fact that their games are great.   Consistency in quality is what makes a loyal customer base, not tech specs.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on January 22, 2018, 03:08:10 pm
The sad thing is that it seems to be marketed as much toward adults as children.

But seriously, when you start making stuff out of cardboard, your barrel is empty.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Mike A on January 22, 2018, 03:18:51 pm
The ravenous demand for Nintendo stuff seems to indicate otherwise.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on January 22, 2018, 04:06:08 pm
The ravenous demand for Nintendo stuff a good portable gaming system seems to indicate otherwise.

Fixt.

Nintendo struck a chord and delivered a very nice platform for mobile gaming.  Their only competition in that field are the poorly thought out Android-based systems from China, which are far less than optimal.    Much of the demand, outside of the usual fans, is from those who already have a real gaming console (or PC) and want something to do while visiting grandma, instead of listening to her complain about her rose bushes :).  But the cardboard stuff seems like a cynical attempt to cater to "maker" culture, and bring those PS4 and XBOX bound 20-somethings into the fold. 

Also, referring to this device as a "console" is wearing at me. To consider this a "console" would be to also consider a laptop with a dock to be a desktop.  I'm not quite prepared to give up my historical understanding of proper terminology to satisfy someone's marketing aspirations.  If they were serious about this aspect, there would be usable horsepower, memory and a hard drive in the cradle, and the games made to scale to either experience, instead of simply a wire management solution.  But I digress :).

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Mike A on January 22, 2018, 04:18:51 pm
 ::)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on January 22, 2018, 04:39:45 pm
Quote
And look at the whole story with Nintendo - for a long time specs didn't matter, but I don't even see Nintendo on the store shelves any more, only PS and XBOX.  Is it possible that by not trying to compete on the cutting edge that people lost interest?

The Switch is the fastest selling console in US history over its first 10 months. The record holder before that for first year sales was the Wii.
Is it considered a console?  I mean, you can hook it to your TV, but I can hook my phone or tablet to my TV and play games too.  Heck, for that matter I can game just as good on my Shield TV, yet none of those are considered game consoles.  I was under the impression this was a portable game device, not a console.  And do they sell games in stores or is it only online?  I see xbox and ps games on shelves all the time, nothing Nintendo any more.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Mike A on January 22, 2018, 04:49:30 pm
 ::)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on January 22, 2018, 05:24:18 pm
Switch: Tegra SOC, integrated display, integrated controls, flash based storage, and powered by an internal battery.
Shield Tablet: Tegra SOC, integrated display, integrated controls, flash based storage, and powered by an internal battery.
PS4: x86-64 bit cpu, desktop based GPU, no integrated display, no integrated controls, standard HDD storage, requires AC power and external display.
xbox:  x86-64 bit cpu, desktop based GPU, no integrated display, no integrated controls, standard HDD storage, requires AC power and external display.

Clearly the Switch is a console.

But then it wouldn't be good to tell investors that you outsold the NVidia Shield tablet, sounds way better to say you outsold the xbox and ps4.  What's next, is Samsung going to start comparing sales of their Galaxy phone against Dell computers?

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on January 22, 2018, 05:50:45 pm
 ::)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on January 22, 2018, 06:23:43 pm
I love it when someone does a comparison between the performance of a PS4 (or XBOX) and the Switch.  When the obvious comments roll out from detractors about low frame rates, resolution, texture detail, etc, without fail the response from proponents is "can you play PS4 on the toilet?" or  "what do you expect from a handheld?"  Both are accurate and fine responses.  But, those same individuals have no problem with comparing sales figures with those more capable devices, and declaring sell-through superiority in a class of devices of which it is clearly not a part.

Fans of the device would better serve their cause by accepting that Nintendo made the best, currently-available portable gaming system, which allows gamers to play reasonably good versions of their favorite console games on-the-go, as well as the sought-after 1st party games specifically designed to excel within its capabilities.  Pitting it against the consoles is unfair for both sides of the discussion.

VR is already a growing part of this generation of consoles, and is likely to be a much larger part of the next one.  When both of the big console players are doing VR, I get a feeling that consumers will find the current co-option of the nomenclature to be less palatable.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on January 22, 2018, 11:21:41 pm
Yeah, I agree with you on the VR front.  If that technology keeps improving at the $200 price point, it’s definitely going to be a factor in my future console purchases.  As in, no vr = no sale.

On the other hand, it might fizzle out.  Been a fun ride, though.  I spent $300 just to play Wii Sports.  That was worth it, too.



Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Howard_Casto on January 23, 2018, 12:53:26 am
Like I keep saying VR will never catch on in a main stream level, at least not anytime soon.  That doesn't mean we can't have fun with it though.  Remember, we aren't normal consumers.... normal consumers don't buy arcade cabinets or 300 dollar racing wheels just for a better play experience.  Like pbj says, just enjoy it in the moment.  It's only chance would be if Nintendo did VR, because you know they go all in on everything, which makes a difference.  If Sony would commit to their headsets a bit more I think it would stand a chance as well.

For the record, the switch is absolutely a console.  Mind you I'm quite annoyed with it's portable centric design, but like I keep saying a million times but nobody seems to listen, tech specs are irrelevant.  The new doom, which is a modern AAA title, can be played on the xbox one, the ps4 and the switch.  Yes the switch version is slightly worse graphically, but you know what... it's comparable.  I was actually pretty amazed when I saw the side by side.  When you can take a graphically impressive AAA title that's on one console, compare it to another and they look more or less the same... they are both on the same level.  Now if the difference in visual quality and experience was like the snes vs the Gameboy back in the day you might have a point, but they are pretty close. 

Honestly these "obvious" differences you keep talking about are pretty minor.  You sound like one of those graphics snobs that complain when a game is only rendering at 900p instead of 1080p

Here's a random video I just googled because I couldn't find the one I watched originally.  Not sure about the quality, but I watched for a few seconds and it makes my point.

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD3kdUYxHZk#)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on January 23, 2018, 02:13:47 am
It is literally an analogue for the "SNES vs Gameboy" (ok, maybe "GameGear vs Genesis" would be more apt), only by today's standards.  I'm not a graphics snob, but a game like DOOM is all about those amazing visuals.  Otherwise, it's just another FPS.  I just expect something which is to be connected to my 8 year old 1080p television to have the decency to use it to it's fullest potential.  After viewing the comparison on that very same set, it's not an exaggeration to state that the Switch version looks like a very poorly upscaled DVD.   Hell, with everything going to 4K now, I'M the troglodyte because I couldn't care less to upgrade.  I even play PC games locked to 1080p / 60fps on a system capable of much more

No one, given the option for any platform, would elect to play DOOM on the Switch at home on their TV.  That doesn't make them a graphics snob, it just makes them normal.

DOOM is a miraculous port, which speaks as much positive of Bethesda (Panic Button) as it does of the negatives of the hardware base they had to work with.  But huge sacrifices were made to do it.  Anyone curious enough to read an analysis of how they managed this feat, can check it out here (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-dooms-impossible-switch-port-analysed).

And I seriously disagree with your statements about VR, especially as related to "N" being its only possible savior.  VR is riding the razors edge of technology and has huge computing horsepower requirements.  Based on N's history, including their most recent offerings, it's far fetched to imagine.  The only reason it isn't better than it is (and the new crop is very good), is because improving it requires tech which hasn't yet been invented. But its popularity will continue to grow and if anything kicks it into the mainstream, it will be MS and Sony.  It's already happening. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on January 23, 2018, 02:57:13 am
I agree with Randy, Nintendo will not be bringing VR to the mainstream.

They may release a cheap “decent” version of it next gen but I think Sony and MS as well as PC devs will be leading the full on charge.

The point you make about us is kind of valid but not in the way you think.

As you say we are extreme gamers, complete with cabinets and a love and appreciation of all levels of gaming history.

That makes us the tuff sell!

Look how many converts there are in here that went from sceptic to “yeah I see the future in this”.

VR is the way forward, Its not the end game by far but its defo a vehicle to get there!
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on January 23, 2018, 10:47:04 am
I can't even see Nintendo being set up to start playing with VR.  Their most powerful system barely has a teraflop of GPU capability, and VR is all about graphics processing power.  As Randy said, the reason VR isn't better is because it requires tech that isn't invented yet, and here Nintendo is using 4 year old technology in their flagship product.  If they do a VR set, it will be so low resolution that cardboard VR will seem leaps and bounds ahead of them.  If any consoles will take it to the mainstream it will definitely be MS or Sony.

Quote
Remember, we aren't normal consumers.... normal consumers don't buy arcade cabinets or 300 dollar racing wheels just for a better play experience.
Yet you just bragged about how the $300 switch is the best selling mainstream game system of all time, so obviously the mainstream is not hesitant when it comes to dropping $300 on a game device.  People line up for days to be the first to spend a thousand on a new phone ffs.  I think you are projecting your view of how people spend money onto the general public.  I see it very different.

I see parents today buying technology for their kids like it's some kind of competition with the Joneses next door.  I see 8 year olds with better phones than I have, and toddlers with tablets laying next to them in the stroller.  Every little thing is a special occasion and after they already bought their kid a phone and a tablet and a computer and a game console, they need something else to keep their child occupied, and a few hundred dollars is the norm.  More than that and they either can't or won't swing it, and less than that and they are going to fall behind what the other parents are buying.  And these kids are growing up to buy $5 coffees for breakfast every day and standing in line to buy $1000 Apple phones or skipping college classes to be in line to get a new Switch so they have something to do when they retreat to their safe place.

You are right that they won't spend $300 on a steering wheel, because they are already spending it on way more advanced gadgets.  Steering wheels are too 80's, their kids want handheld devices with screens and batteries and wifi, or special cameras and wands, or plastic guitars and drums.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: yotsuya on January 23, 2018, 12:09:02 pm
 https://www.google.com/amp/www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5297001/amp/Apple-suddenly-cancel-iPhone-X-summer.html
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on January 23, 2018, 12:16:59 pm
Ah, another doom and gloom in store for Apple article.  Been seeing those daily for 10+ years.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: yotsuya on January 23, 2018, 12:45:36 pm
Ah, another doom and gloom in store for Apple article.  Been seeing those daily for 10+ years.

No, not for Apple per se, but for people spending $1000 on phones
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Loafmeister on January 29, 2018, 04:34:12 pm
Update: finally got a chance to try the PSVR I picked up.  Keep in mind I'm playing this on a PS4Pro

- Picked up a PSVR recently that included Skyrim VR
- Traded Skyrim VR towards Farpoint bundle (game with AIM controller)
- Farpoint with the AIM controller is fantastic, just awesome
- Wish I’d kept skyrim though as I now want it and even used it’s $70CND
- I also bought a few digital games, VR Worlds is more experience/demo than game but it's very polished. The shark encounter is very effective, the London Heist job (or whatever it's called) works very well too. Dick Wild is pretty good as a duck hunt type of game, works great with the aim controller too.

Overall and comparison to PC high end VR headsets: 
Negative:  The PSVR has worst tracking compared to PC VR like Oculus Rift and HTC Vive.  I think because I have RIFT/VIVE, it feels worse than if I was ignorant of these headsets (ie: ignorance is bliss).  The resolution of most games are much lower than the PC equivalent; for those familiar with the PC headsets, if you've played any unreal games at their default low res blurry level, you'd know what I mean.  The FOV is also smaller than the PC VR I’ve tried, though it is serviceable

Positive:  ... however the headset is really easy to put on.  As well, the panels have very small pixels and the SDE (the black between the pixels) and lesser than expected so in essence, although low res the games in a way look really good!  The POV is smaller but the sweet spot is actually very good and it's an intersting debate this "fresnel lens vs non fresnel".  IE: Fresnel means you get more of things "rings" and "God Rays" which just aren't there on the PSVR.  The ergonomics are also just plain better though not league better than the Vive with the Deluxe Audio Strap upgrade.

I’m glad I have the PS4Pro as I understand it does some oversampling to improve the graphics.  Overall, a thumbs up, glad I got it but it also makes me wish the PS4 plus were part of the PC experience. There is no perfect VR headset right now but I sure hope we keep progressing towards a merger of these two for the second gen (which appears in some form outside of the use of fresnel lenses, this is what we are getting with Vive Pro)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on January 30, 2018, 12:47:19 am
Quote
(which appears in some form outside of the use of fresnel lenses, this is what we are getting with Vive Pro)

na the vive pro is pretty much just the vive/plus audio strap with with a better resulation screen. Plus a few other small things like a volume control on the headset, noise canceling mic so you don't here other players speakers in multiplayer games and 2 front facing cameras that have not been identified on there use is for yet.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Loafmeister on January 30, 2018, 03:16:16 am
It has been reported that the Vive Pro has better comfort than the Vive with DAS.  Of course we will all know for ourselves hopefully soon.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on January 30, 2018, 10:53:49 am
Tested says it weighs about the same as the original vive which is the Vives biggest problem is that it weighs to much making it uncomfortable to tray and relax and sit in a chair with it.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Loafmeister on January 30, 2018, 01:01:08 pm
Weight is not the problem, weight distribution and ergonomics  are.  You may be shocked with the following however brace yourself:  the PSVR headset weighs MORE than the HTC Vive. 

https://www.roadtovr.com/playstation-vr-weight-psvr-heaviest-best-ergonomics-oculus-rift-htc-vive-weight-comparison/ (https://www.roadtovr.com/playstation-vr-weight-psvr-heaviest-best-ergonomics-oculus-rift-htc-vive-weight-comparison/)

Take a closer look at the Vive PRO and you will note there are changes to the back of the strap which should assist in balancing out the HMD.  Also weight wise, don't forget HTC released a new SKU of the Vive last year that weighed 15% less. 

Well, the better ergonomics has been some of the comments posted from people who've tried it, various head shapes notwithstanding, I hope it's better anyway
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on January 30, 2018, 04:13:44 pm
We will have to see, I can tell the audio strap did not improve the comfort on the vive from the original strap, all it did was add more weight.  The vive pro looks to be the same size and shape as the vive so if that strap on it makes all the difference than why was that one not released for the vive?
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Loafmeister on January 30, 2018, 10:01:42 pm
It may not have made a difference for you and others but it made a difference for me and many others

I don’t understand your last question but doesn’t matter neither of us knows for sure but we hopefully will soon
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on February 10, 2018, 11:06:13 pm
a good bow game has come  "In Death" fairly hard yet so satisfying as you get better. Style reminds me of that 1998 Thief game and like Thief you can use different arrows with different abilities. This is what VR Thief should look like but there is no stealth or room looting or story... or actual missions... :-[

http://store.steampowered.com/app/605450/In_Death/ (http://store.steampowered.com/app/605450/In_Death/)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on February 11, 2018, 02:35:12 am
Arghh I loved Thief!

One of my fave games!
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fablog on February 11, 2018, 11:41:32 am
Guys I like my new Samsung Odyssey. I bought it used at 320$. A very good price when you know it was originally bought in December by the first owner. So far I love it and clearly it's impossible to explain the feeling with words. I'm so convinced by this technology that I'm sure I will buy the generations to come. One thing I miss is to see my foots ahahah. I'm 40 and was bore by the last year's. I lived the excitement to discover  real improvement every year in the gaming industry since I was a kid. Same thing about Internet. They were the good old days. I feel this excitement with VR, waiting for the next best thing. If I have to bet on a company it will be Microsoft. I think their market strategy is the best to have quickly a lower price and so a better adoption rate. Last thing, I discovered that the cheap Ikea rechargeable AA batteries (Ladda) are the same than Eneloop pro. I'll try them with my controllers.

Envoyé de mon Nexus 4 en utilisant Tapatalk
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: danny_galaga on February 15, 2018, 06:38:31 am
I too am ready for VR (",)

http://64jim64.blogspot.com.au/2017/09/vr64-virtual-reality-goggles-for.html (http://64jim64.blogspot.com.au/2017/09/vr64-virtual-reality-goggles-for.html)

(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-PoNABgCkTWw/WbQ1EqFyEyI/AAAAAAAAAG8/NSP-l7w0VKYynM-5oweCYbEcXC8JcrgUwCLcBGAs/s1600/goggles.png)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on February 16, 2018, 09:50:30 pm
Still playing in In Death a few times every night, you need to check this one out; this is what VR was made for, it is such a gamer game. Hard to describe when a game gets balancing so right, it is either to easy and you see all the patterns or it is cheap hard and unfair. I have never died and thought the game was being cheap I always blame myself which makes it addicting.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on February 18, 2018, 11:56:16 am
Still playing in In Death a few times every night, you need to check this one out; this is what VR was made for, it is such a gamer game. Hard to describe when a game gets balancing so right, it is either to easy and you see all the patterns or it is cheap hard and unfair. I have never died and thought the game was being cheap I always blame myself which makes it addicting.

I know what you mean.  I don't know how many times I have become a little too comfortable in the game, and teleported myself right into a "bee's nest" of enemies, and tried to take them all on, instead of doing the sane thing of retreating back to a more reasonable vantage point.

The game has all the qualities of an old-school arcade game.  Easy to learn, difficult to master, ridiculously addictive, no game saves and  immediate action, which lends itself to quick gaming sessions.  The fancy graphics, procedurally generated maps and enemy placement and the great sense of immersion put it over the top. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: mimic on February 19, 2018, 10:45:53 am
PSVR bundle for $199 includes camera and one game https://www.playstation.com/en-us/explore/playstation-vr/buy-now/ (https://www.playstation.com/en-us/explore/playstation-vr/buy-now/) . One "tiny" problem, SOLD OUT EVERYWHERE! I'm ready to try it out if they will restock it within the 2 weeks!
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on February 19, 2018, 12:05:27 pm
PSVR bundle for $199 includes camera and one game https://www.playstation.com/en-us/explore/playstation-vr/buy-now/ (https://www.playstation.com/en-us/explore/playstation-vr/buy-now/) . One "tiny" problem, SOLD OUT EVERYWHERE! I'm ready to try it out if they will restock it within the 2 weeks!

It's been said before, but Sony really is doing more to bring VR to the mainstream than any of the other players, with the possible exception of MS.  Just like with the video game marketplace, the consoles will be leading the way, with higher end experiences catering to enthusiasts on expensive PCs.  I expect to see some upgraded tracking and controllers from Sony before too long.

VR is at the cusp of the "hump". I think once we start seeing the WMR systems working with the XBOX One X, things will quickly start gaining momentum, and more big developers will take the technology seriously.  Even though it hasn't been publicly stated, I believe that these mid-gen console upgrades have been introduced with VR being a major motivating factor.  The marketing for 4k capabilities gets the consoles adopted at the scale to support mass production.  But I think VR is the true end game for both of the big console makers.   
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on February 20, 2018, 11:21:07 pm
Big sale going on for PSVR games right now.  I’m probably buying a one month subscription just to get the discounts.

Also - the Star Wars Battlefront game that came out 2 years ago and is $5 used has a fun single player VR mission.  Biggest cocktease imaginable... I want my damn full on game...  still almost worth the $5 just for the mission, though.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Howard_Casto on February 21, 2018, 01:15:37 am
It's interesting that MS and Sony are taking more of a virtual approach and Nintendo is taking a real approach to augmented reality.  Check out some of the new footage of the Labo robot kit.... I think the level of immersion is more impressive than it appears at first glance... it's silly, but still... 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on February 21, 2018, 01:40:43 am
Ime rather looking forward to the next gen to see how Sony and MS run with it tbh.

Ive not beein this eager to see the next gen since the PSX days....
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on February 21, 2018, 07:46:41 am
Check out some of the new footage of the Labo robot kit.... I think the level of immersion is more impressive than it appears at first glance... it's silly, but still...

Christ, how high were the Nintendo designers who came up with that thing?
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on February 21, 2018, 10:44:40 am
It's interesting that MS and Sony are taking more of a virtual approach and Nintendo is taking a real approach to augmented reality.  Check out some of the new footage of the Labo robot kit.... I think the level of immersion is more impressive than it appears at first glance... it's silly, but still...

If wearing a cardboard box while staring at a 7" screen is "augmented reality", I never again want to hear anyone complain that MS's Mixed Reality moniker is a misnomer.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on February 21, 2018, 11:19:10 am
Mortal Kombat XL, while also being a surprisingly fun game, looks amazing in VR cinema mode.


Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Howard_Casto on February 21, 2018, 02:50:48 pm
It's interesting that MS and Sony are taking more of a virtual approach and Nintendo is taking a real approach to augmented reality.  Check out some of the new footage of the Labo robot kit.... I think the level of immersion is more impressive than it appears at first glance... it's silly, but still...

If wearing a cardboard box while staring at a 7" screen is "augmented reality", I never again want to hear anyone complain that MS's Mixed Reality moniker is a misnomer.

First off, get off your high horse, the labo stuff is fun,, unlike some of the other over-priced cluster ---smurfs--- that have tried to enter the market.  Remember the OR treadmill?  That was pretty laughable.  Secondly what are you talking about?  The robot game is fullscreen.  You need to read/watch some reviews of the product to understand what I am talking about. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on February 21, 2018, 03:12:08 pm
You need to read/watch some reviews of the product to understand what I am talking about.

Full-screen or not, that isn't this:

Code: [Select]
aug·men·ted re·al·i·ty
noun
a technology that superimposes a computer-generated image on a user's view of the real world, thus providing a composite view.

*edit*  BTW, the Kinect did the same thing, without cardboard and strings.  But it still wasn't augmented reality.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Howard_Casto on February 21, 2018, 03:44:19 pm
It is, that definition is very narrow, but I won't argue with you. 

The Kinect DIDN'T do the same thing because the Kinect didn't track well on xbox consoles and was horrible.  There's a reason it has been wiped from existence. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on February 21, 2018, 04:09:36 pm
Eh, I'm willing to give the cardboard boxes a shot before casting judgement.  Don't really see the point in carrying water for a multi-billion dollar multi-national company but you do do.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on February 21, 2018, 04:29:55 pm
It is, that definition is very narrow, but I won't argue with you.

I think you already did.   

Quote
The Kinect DIDN'T do the same thing because the Kinect didn't track well on xbox consoles and was horrible.  There's a reason it has been wiped from existence.

Some of the technology used in the Kinect does still exist, and is being used in the WMR platform.  If I were to guess which portion, it would be the IK algorithms which help it to track the controllers outside of the camera view.  The unit itself was very likely discontinued for a couple of reasons.  1) People just weren't all that excited about controlling flat games with motion.  It was considerably better than the Wii, but lacked physical buttons like the PSMOVE, which was also quite good.  Regardless, none of those attempts held on as a gaming staple, although the PSMOVE has received a new lease on life with PSVR.  I expect it to be temporary though.  2) It is about to be superseded by the WMR headsets, which deliver far more varied and compelling experiences, and therefore the Kinect simply no longer has a place in the market.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on February 22, 2018, 11:45:18 pm
Also - the Star Wars Battlefront game that came out 2 years ago and is $5 used has a fun single player VR mission.

Thanks for heads-up.  I haven't played Battlefront for a while and didn't know they snuck it in there.  I think they did a great job with it, and I'd like to see more as well.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on February 23, 2018, 12:02:52 am
Swear to god I got a half chub during that Star Wars mission.

So, there’s a trick to get 2 days of Playstation Plus - go to settings, go to the save game storage, select online storage, and you can get a 2 day trial. 

I usually opt for physical, but swapping discs is a pain when helmeted.

PSN discount in hand, I picked up the following....

Statik
I Expect You to Die
Driveclub VR
Apollo 11
Until Dawn Rush of Blood
PS VR Worlds
Crystal Rift (looks kinda basic but eh $4)

That all hopefully keeps me busy until Skyrim VR goes on clearance.

Statik pretty damn amazing.  Did the ocean game and paddle ball on VR Worlds.  Both very nicely done.  I wish they had an endless mode on the coral reef level, would make it very easy to flop into a comfortable chair, turn that level on, and forget how much I hate my life.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: mimic on February 23, 2018, 07:58:30 pm
I've got a question to those that had the VR HMD for awhile now. Did the stereoscopic effect diminished for you with time? Because I don't get the same 3D wow like I used to in the beginning. I mean I still can see things from every direction, but now I have more of a looking at a big screen feeling, rather than that really pronounced 3D effect like I had in the beginning, the 3D was just more noticeable then.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on February 24, 2018, 12:33:02 am
I'll have to answer this with a question.  IRL, do you look at your surroundings and remark how three-dimensional things seem to you, or do you just accept them as part of your reality?

I think what you are experiencing is your brain settling in to the notion that your VR experiences are approaching par with your perception of your natural surroundings.  You are no longer astonished that's it's possible, so the subtleties become less apparent to you.

Play only pancake games for a week and then go back to VR.  I suspect that you'll see things differently then.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on February 24, 2018, 08:44:02 pm
I've got a question to those that had the VR HMD for awhile now. Did the stereoscopic effect diminished for you with time? Because I don't get the same 3D wow like I used to in the beginning. I mean I still can see things from every direction, but now I have more of a looking at a big screen feeling, rather than that really pronounced 3D effect like I had in the beginning, the 3D was just more noticeable then.

For myself, the 3D effect hasn't diminished.  Other effects have though.  For example, artificial movement used to really trip me out in VR.  My first few times playing Hover Junkers, I "felt" the sensation of movement flying around in the hover ships.  But over time, I got used to it and now artificial motion has no effect on me any more.

I imagine everyone is wired a little differently and will adapt differently to VR.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: mimic on February 27, 2018, 11:10:25 pm
I think what you are experiencing is your brain settling in to the notion that your VR experiences are approaching par with your perception of your natural surroundings.  You are no longer astonished that's it's possible, so the subtleties become less apparent to you.

Play only pancake games for a week and then go back to VR.  I suspect that you'll see things differently then.

You're probably right, although some games seem to have stronger 3D effect than others. It's like some of them have "inside the box" effect. I can only compare to 3D movie theater, when everything seem to be past the movie screen, rather than outside too)

For myself, the 3D effect hasn't diminished.  Other effects have though.  For example, artificial movement used to really trip me out in VR.  My first few times playing Hover Junkers, I "felt" the sensation of movement flying around in the hover ships.  But over time, I got used to it and now artificial motion has no effect on me any more.

I imagine everyone is wired a little differently and will adapt differently to VR.

Yeah, that for sure, I got way more used to it now. I remember when I wasn't sure if I wanted to spend that much $ on the Oculus Rift so I went to Best Buy for a demo and asked them to let me try The Climb, it was cool, but I wasn't super impressed and I noticed SDE right away, but it all changed the moment I asked the demo guy if I can let go off the cliff. The sensation of falling down was out of this world! It raised my hair on my legs and arms, and that's when I knew this is different that anything else I've ever tried!
 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on February 27, 2018, 11:27:07 pm
I really wish Disney would release Captain EO, Not just release it but create a VR recreation of the theater room; with the Vive pro and the new headphones that would be so amazing. It would be like having Disney multi million dollar ride in your own home. Kids would flip out, you would be like that was the first 3d film we saw in the 80’s
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on February 28, 2018, 01:26:24 pm
Looks like they are finally releasing the wireless for the vive and vive pro.. due out the end of summer. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on February 28, 2018, 01:33:52 pm
 Still no announcements on prices yet for either the Pro or wireless... Wondering if this means they'll cost only one kidney or two. :/
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on February 28, 2018, 02:02:00 pm
Still no announcements on prices yet for either the Pro or wireless... Wondering if this means they'll cost only one kidney or two. :/
I saw one price of $799 for the pro, but that would be for the whole thing, not just the HMD, and still nothing on the wireless setup. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on February 28, 2018, 02:24:17 pm
I saw one price of $799 for the pro, but that would be for the whole thing, not just the HMD, and still nothing on the wireless setup.

The $799 was just a rumor (there's been a few floating around the past month).  Nothing is official yet AFAIK.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on March 05, 2018, 02:34:45 pm
Picked up SubNautica to try it out this weekend.  Got nauseous after about 6 minutes of play and had to take off the HMD to keep from throwing up.  Worse than being on a cruise ship, lol.  It was interesting while playing.  The cursor for selecting things is based on where you are looking, which is why it made me sick so fast.  I will probably play the game in regular desktop mode but not in VR any more.  The VR mode is still more or less beta.

I have to add that any game that makes me watch closely for items and arrow over them to see what they are (like Fallout 4) make me sick after a short time even on a regular screen, so this just added in a lot of head movement to zero in on what I was trying to click, along with my FOV moving in slightly unnatural ways compared to what my body was feeling and the combination just did me in. 

Most games I have played don't give me motion sickness any worse than a regular display does.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on March 14, 2018, 11:37:48 am
Couple exciting releases coming up for PCVR shortly:

Bethesda just announced Skyrim VR: https://bethesda.net/en/article/4YSRrlXtpuKeWIK6EMiG84/skyrim-vr-comes-to-steamvr (https://bethesda.net/en/article/4YSRrlXtpuKeWIK6EMiG84/skyrim-vr-comes-to-steamvr)   It's apparently landing on the PC on April 3.

There's also Apex Construct which looks like a quality title (if the initial reviews are anything to go by), coming to PC VR on March 20th: http://store.steampowered.com/app/694090/Apex_Construct/ (http://store.steampowered.com/app/694090/Apex_Construct/)



Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on March 14, 2018, 01:56:57 pm
Not sure if its been mentioned previous but I saw a cool looking game the other day called Sparc.

Its a tron-esq looking ball throwing game.

Not played it but it looks decent.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on March 15, 2018, 11:33:06 pm
Finally got some more time in on my PSVR.  Crystal Rift is a clunker but I’m enjoying it.  Star Wars VR mission in Battlefront is still enjoyable the 4th time through.

London Heist.  My god, it may be the most immersive video game experience I’ve ever had.  I lost my damn mind when I picked up a cigar, lit it, and smoked it in that game.  You could even hold in the smoke.  It played like a really, really good Virtua Cop.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on March 16, 2018, 04:08:14 am
Finally got some more time in on my PSVR.  Crystal Rift is a clunker but I’m enjoying it.  Star Wars VR mission in Battlefront is still enjoyable the 4th time through.

London Heist.  My god, it may be the most immersive video game experience I’ve ever had.  I lost my damn mind when I picked up a cigar, lit it, and smoked it in that game.  You could even hold in the smoke.  It played like a really, really good Virtua Cop.

London heist heh?
I need to look that up.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on March 16, 2018, 10:12:36 am
It's one of the 'experiences' in VR Worlds.  Shockingly violent and vulgar in comparison to the "float with the sea turtles" alternatives.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on March 16, 2018, 10:25:06 am
It's one of the 'experiences' in VR Worlds.  Shockingly violent and vulgar in comparison to the "float with the sea turtles" alternatives.

I thought that Shark one was pretty cool too. The Heist was cool, hand tracking wasn't that bad as long as you have it all setup right.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on March 17, 2018, 12:21:34 am
aw man I just stumbled across this video and could not believe it! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtHeHsBCSe0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtHeHsBCSe0)

VOX Machinae  had a small demo for the DK2 going on 4 years ago now; I thought it felt like the best MEC game I played since Mec warrior 3 and it was in VR. I thought the game had been abandoned, they hardly update there website but Nope! looks like they put alot more work into it and they now you can sign up for play test on there website (I signed up so fast) I can tell this game is going to be one of the greats. This is going to be a game that will make you want to build a VR MEC cockpit with some ruble pads and well placed joysticks.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on March 17, 2018, 04:42:57 am
It's one of the 'experiences' in VR Worlds.  Shockingly violent and vulgar in comparison to the "float with the sea turtles" alternatives.

Ahhh.

I have the experiences disk and never used it lol

I really should...
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on March 19, 2018, 01:14:27 pm
They really are going to sell the Pro for $800 by its self. Makes me a bit mad because I know in no time maybe even the second batch it will be around $600 with the new base stations and the controllers. Clearly they are just going to see how many of the already owners of the Vive they can get to pay for this… I might actually have to just wait, it sucks but what can you do. If they said this was going to be the price for the next year and a half than that would be one thing but there is no way.

https://www.vive.com/us/vive-pro-vr/?utm_medium=US_Social&utm_source=Facebook&utm_campaign=US_PRO_Retargeting&utm_content=US_PRO_PreOwner_VidAudio (https://www.vive.com/us/vive-pro-vr/?utm_medium=US_Social&utm_source=Facebook&utm_campaign=US_PRO_Retargeting&utm_content=US_PRO_PreOwner_VidAudio)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on March 19, 2018, 02:38:14 pm
They really are going to sell the Pro for $800 by its self. Makes me a bit mad because I know in no time maybe even the second batch it will be around $600 with the new base stations and the controllers. Clearly they are just going to see how many of the already owners of the Vive they can get to pay for this… I might actually have to just wait, it sucks but what can you do. If they said this was going to be the price for the next year and a half than that would be one thing but there is no way.

https://www.vive.com/us/vive-pro-vr/?utm_medium=US_Social&utm_source=Facebook&utm_campaign=US_PRO_Retargeting&utm_content=US_PRO_PreOwner_VidAudio (https://www.vive.com/us/vive-pro-vr/?utm_medium=US_Social&utm_source=Facebook&utm_campaign=US_PRO_Retargeting&utm_content=US_PRO_PreOwner_VidAudio)
Yeah, $800 for JUST the headset.  I was hoping it would be under $500 with the entire kit with lighthouses and controllers at $800-900.

I might just wait for the wireless before I pull the trigger.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on March 19, 2018, 02:40:04 pm
So, VR Porn.  Worth messing with?  I have some app on my PS4 that lets you sideload videos.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on March 19, 2018, 03:04:24 pm
VR porn has been getting pretty good lately. It used to be they looked a lot larger than they should the video quality varied widely sometimes it had bad antialiasing, sometimes you could almost count the pixels that made up there face when they sat 5 feet away from you, but now as the cameras have gotten better they are the right size. Not sure if the compression changed but a lot of the new videos there is a lot of detail. I have a few videos that are so good and the chicks are so hot that it actually brought up the case for me if there will be a time when girl friends can actually be swapped out for tec in the near futchure. Some of these videos feel like you are in a strip club(being that you cant touch) Except with VR there is much better lighting and the girls they get are alot hotter.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on March 19, 2018, 04:37:36 pm
Apparently in Houston you can touch.  Having a tit shoved in your mouth unexpectedly is simultaneously horrifying and enjoyable.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on March 19, 2018, 04:54:15 pm
Apparently in Houston you can touch.  Having a tit shoved in your mouth unexpectedly is simultaneously horrifying and enjoyable.

VR porn....

Yeah not sure ide want to experience that without knowing what was going to happen.

One min you got a nice boob, next you are being slapped round the face with a giant cock!!!
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on March 19, 2018, 06:16:59 pm
Admittedly I haven't tried any VR porn videos newer than a couple years old, but VR porn has this weird "uncanny valley" vibe to me.

I mean, you're staring down at some other dude's body and dick, and if they happen to move or make any noises, it's just really weird.  Like you're having sex with a chick with another dude breathing in your ear.

Then there's the fact that things can look disproportionate and some of the porn stars are gross when viewed close-up.

Add in having to fire up the VR headset in the first place and the whole thing is more trouble than its worth.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on March 19, 2018, 06:57:30 pm
I kind of felt that way about VR porn a few years ago, not really worth it but just a novelty; funny they always say when porn gets a hold of a tec that’s when it really takes off and VR porn has been and still is some of the best 180 and 360 video filmed for VR. Like I said the video has changed maybe in the last 6 months and it has now become worth it if you can find the girls you like, there are a lot more choices now as well. There are about 8 main sites I personally just pirate them all I spent $100 bucks for a 4tb drive dedicated to all those 13GB files.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on March 19, 2018, 07:28:28 pm
^ this man porns
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: yotsuya on March 19, 2018, 07:50:51 pm
Got to do something while you watch your crypto currency rise and fall.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on March 20, 2018, 02:44:46 am
Maybe ime not as much of a sexual deviant as I thought
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on March 31, 2018, 09:59:30 am
Any of you PSVR owners play the WipEout Omega Collection? I am hearing reports that it is the best VR game ever made. Am I going to have to buy a playstation and a PSVR for this?
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on March 31, 2018, 10:12:45 am
Waiting for a price drop on that one.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on March 31, 2018, 11:47:16 am
Not tried it.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on April 03, 2018, 01:13:41 am
Any of you PSVR owners play the WipEout Omega Collection? I am hearing reports that it is the best VR game ever made. Am I going to have to buy a playstation and a PSVR for this?

Yes,  yes and yes.

If you like Wipeout! then imagine actually being in the ship, looking out at all of that colorful futuristic scenery, while traveling at 400+kph.  Loads of tracks and ships, every one playable in VR.  When I first tried it out, it literally sent a chill up my spine. It's that good.  I was even able to set up the racing rig to work with it (with some tweaking and extra hardware.)

PSVR has it's system seller now.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on April 03, 2018, 02:38:37 am
Ive just ordered it and Arizona sunshine so ile give it a rip when I get some time :)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on April 03, 2018, 03:26:29 am
Ive just ordered it and Arizona sunshine so ile give it a rip when I get some time :)

Fun game, I haven't tried the new DLC that came out.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on April 03, 2018, 03:54:04 am
Ive just ordered it and Arizona sunshine so ile give it a rip when I get some time :)

Fun game, I haven't tried the new DLC that came out.

Arizona sunshine or wipeout?
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on April 03, 2018, 03:56:16 am
Arizona Sunshine
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on April 03, 2018, 04:05:04 am
Arizona Sunshine

Yeah it looks fun!
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on April 03, 2018, 10:19:02 am
Quote
Yes,  yes and yes.

If you like Wipeout! then imagine actually being in the ship, looking out at all of that colorful futuristic scenery, while traveling at 400+kph.  Loads of tracks and ships, every one playable in VR.  When I first tried it out, it literally sent a chill up my spine. It's that good.  I was even able to set up the racing rig to work with it (with some tweaking and extra hardware.)

PSVR has it's system seller now.

Wipeout is a Playstation exclusive that will never come to the PC will it? This sucks I need to try it. Picking up a PSVR is not really a problem, I can just add it to my HMD collection but having to buy an actual PlayStation is what is not cool.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on April 03, 2018, 10:31:26 am
PSVR has it's system seller now.

Dammit, Randy. 

(https://media.istockphoto.com/vectors/money-flying-away-vector-id512043815)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: yotsuya on April 03, 2018, 04:48:17 pm
Ive just ordered it and Arizona sunshine so ile give it a rip when I get some time :)

Fun game, I haven't tried the new DLC that came out.

Arizona sunshine or wipeout?

If I want Arizona Sunshine I don’t need a headset motherscratchers...

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180403/0aecf3be11cf1614a9b3debe37f09572.jpg)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on April 03, 2018, 04:52:17 pm
Ive just ordered it and Arizona sunshine so ile give it a rip when I get some time :)

Fun game, I haven't tried the new DLC that came out.

Arizona sunshine or wipeout?

If I want Arizona Sunshine I don’t need a headset motherscratchers...

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180403/0aecf3be11cf1614a9b3debe37f09572.jpg)

The poor lass looks like she wants some!

Need all the sunshine we can get over here!
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on April 03, 2018, 07:09:26 pm
Vitamin D deficiency is real, bro. 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Howard_Casto on April 03, 2018, 08:17:54 pm
Arh! I only get the scurvy 3 or 4 times a year.... arrgh! 
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on April 03, 2018, 09:31:37 pm
Wrong vitamin.  :bat
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on April 04, 2018, 02:21:50 am
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Loafmeister on April 27, 2018, 02:08:21 am
Wipeout in vr is fantastic.  It also received a permanent price drop recently so now is the time

I bought skyrim pc vr but stopped playing it until the mod stuff calms down.  Looks good and with the right mods people are saying best title so far.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: OlDirty on April 27, 2018, 05:40:17 am
I use VR 90% for simracing only (Project Cars 2, iracing, Dirt Rally, Assetto Corsa). It's mindblowing when you think you're sitting in a car. Of course steeting wheel, pedals and all the stuff is needed for the real imersion.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on May 03, 2018, 09:42:06 pm
Wow, two years since I started this thread and it's still going.  So here's my two year VR retrospective: VR is still ---smurfing--- amazing.

Also just got Beat Saber and it totally rocks.

(https://media1.tenor.com/images/3ca3d152294cefe01fbc5fdf193a2c61/tenor.gif?itemid=11271149)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on May 03, 2018, 11:32:23 pm
Spent 2 hours on my PSVR tonight.  Five months later and it’s still going strong....

 :lol
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on May 04, 2018, 12:01:50 am
Beat Saber is not really doing it for me. I am just not getting any satisfaction from slicing the boxes, you don't really see it you are just focused on the next ones coming up. I will have to try it more but not really having any fun with it.

I did just buy the Oculus Go.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on May 04, 2018, 10:20:46 pm
Beat Saber is not really doing it for me. I am just not getting any satisfaction from slicing the boxes, you don't really see it you are just focused on the next ones coming up. I will have to try it more but not really having any fun with it.

Oddly enough my one complaint for the game (besides the currently limited number songs) is the opposite.  I find the close boxes obscure further boxes making it harder to figure out what pattern of swings is needed. Makes Expert mode little more than a guessing game.

That said, I find the game is best once you get the patterns down and you start feeling like a jedi slicing everything in perfect time with the music.

Quote
I did just buy the Oculus Go.

How is it?  I've thought about getting a standalone unit to try and have debated between the Go and the Mirage. The latter seems to offer more feature-wise (6DoF vs 3DoF), but reportedly has a more limited software library.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on May 04, 2018, 11:13:41 pm
I don't know it will be here tomorrow, it is more just a portable movie/media/porn player. I am hoping the lenses and resolution will be better; they are better but I am hoping it will make a difference. For $200 who gives a shi.. there is literately no reason not to pick one up given the specs and convenience.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on May 04, 2018, 11:29:07 pm
Looks like someone shoved a Pi into a headset....
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: megamoze on May 09, 2018, 07:31:11 pm
Just jumped in with a Lenovo Windows Mixed Reality headset.  So far, I'm LOVING it.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on May 23, 2018, 09:40:46 pm
I was covered in sweat and dry heaving by lap 2 on the wipeout omega demo.

 :'(
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 24, 2018, 12:32:03 pm
I was covered in sweat and dry heaving by lap 2 on the wipeout omega demo.

That's unfortunate.

I will admit, even with well-developed "VR legs", it's very rough with all the comfort options turned off.  Was it doing this to you, even with the cockpit locked in the up and down orientation and the blinders active?  It's not a great way to experience it, but it should make it much easier to stomach.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on May 24, 2018, 12:43:39 pm
I went back to it an hour later and was able to finish a race with the blinders on the small setting, but it was definitely uncomfortable.  I'll try it again with the view locked to cockpit. 

No problems at all with Drive Club.   :dunno
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on May 24, 2018, 01:23:12 pm
I went back to it an hour later and was able to finish a race with the blinders on the small setting, but it was definitely uncomfortable.  I'll try it again with the view locked to cockpit. 

No problems at all with Drive Club.   :dunno

Drive club is such a mess, that it's not surprising.  Wipeout! is greasy-smooth, with a good amount of visual detail, so the immersion level is higher.  If you were playing with the view locked to the ship, I would try turning that off, and removing the blinders.  It's actually easier to play that way, but you feel like you are in a gyro-controlled, auto-leveling ball inside the ship.  The "queasy factor" is also greatly reduced.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: SNAAKE on May 24, 2018, 10:09:47 pm
how is resident evil Vll ??
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on May 25, 2018, 12:20:13 am
So damn intense I couldn’t play it.  PT times 10.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on May 25, 2018, 05:31:11 am
how is resident evil Vll ??

Awesome.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Gunstar on May 26, 2018, 09:48:53 am
First post!

I was lucky enough to try the Oculus dev kit v2 and I was pretty much blown away by the 'presence' of being there. Shame I don't have the stomach for it, any time the camera moved I'd get nauseous :/
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on May 26, 2018, 10:41:50 am
First post!

I was lucky enough to try the Oculus dev kit v2 and I was pretty much blown away by the 'presence' of being there. Shame I don't have the stomach for it, any time the camera moved I'd get nauseous :/

It just takes training lol
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Gunstar on May 26, 2018, 03:11:58 pm
I've heard that you can build up a tolerance but I dunno, sometimes when I haven't played an fps in awhile I get the same sort of feeling (some games, not all), it's such a pain as it's one of my favorite genres.

I still want a headset though, to experience one of my fav games ever in VR, Rez!
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Titchgamer on June 06, 2018, 08:48:55 am
I've heard that you can build up a tolerance but I dunno, sometimes when I haven't played an fps in awhile I get the same sort of feeling (some games, not all), it's such a pain as it's one of my favorite genres.

I still want a headset though, to experience one of my fav games ever in VR, Rez!

Yeah you can build up a tolerance to it.
You can also do things to help like eat ginger biscuits or take a motion sickness tablet.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: javeryh on June 11, 2018, 10:33:08 am
I played Beat Saber for the first time this weekend and I may need to buy a fancy rig and a Vive HTC Pro to play it some more.  Think Guitar Hero but with light Sabers and in VR.  It is insanely fun.  I really hope there is a future with VR games and this isn't a passing fad.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Mike A on June 11, 2018, 10:50:27 am
Quote
Beat Saber

I envisioned a completely different game.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: javeryh on June 11, 2018, 09:33:55 pm
Quote
Beat Saber

I envisioned a completely different game.

It would surprise me if something didn't already exist with a similar name but in a completely different genre...
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: mimic on June 11, 2018, 10:42:23 pm
Quote
Beat Saber

I envisioned a completely different game.

You can actually instal custom sabers, and there is some in the shape that I imagine Mike A wants to hold (personally deleted them)

Anyone that is on the fence about VR system... If you own PS4, Game Stop (and supposedly others) have Skyrim package that includes latest version of the headset, move controllers, camera and of course mentioned Skyrim game for "only" $250 (I know I wish I waited!).

And just to rub it in Howard Casto's face, I'm still using my "gimmick" to this day, well after year of owning. Still considering it the best way to play games. Didn't care too much about Beat Saber, but Fallout 4 in VR is fantastic!
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on July 01, 2018, 11:21:21 pm
 Well, I couldn’t manage to download any Princess Leia videos and have them work in Littlstar, but I have seen some horrors on YouTube.   Vaginal rejuvenation and “that’s a hemorrhoid, I got that after the baby came.”  All in glorious 3D.

Played some more Wipeout.  I still get drenched in sweat but not queasy.  Even managed 15 minutes of Resident Evil.  I still like Driveclub best.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on July 05, 2018, 05:32:38 pm
In the Littlstar app, there's a 20 minute video with the Obamas giving a tour of the Whitehouse.  It was actually quite interesting and well done.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on July 06, 2018, 01:18:35 pm
Knuckles evolution

this controller is going to jump vr another 2 steps into the future.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ad194iqmfE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ad194iqmfE)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: dkersten on July 06, 2018, 02:42:47 pm
I went to fire up the Vive the other day and one base station is throwing a fault.  Gimbal wore out and it won't spin up to speed any more.  $90 and 5 weeks if I send it in for repair, $135 for a new one on Amazon, delivered Monday.  If it had been a glitch in the HMD, I would have just put the $135 toward a pro, but since it is a base station, even if I upgrade I need to replace or repair this one... Bummer.  Oh well, I just ordered a new one. 

Also turns out there is a new v2.0 base station for the pro with 12 LED's instead of 9.  It is not compatible with the original vive, and it won't work with a v1.0 (only comes if you buy the complete pro set).  Guessing it makes tracking a bit better (i.e. maintains better visibility with the HMD).

I can still use the vive with one base station, but it loses tracking pretty easily, so action games are out until the new base station arrives.  I'm so tempted to order the pro upgrade but I've been hemorrhaging money with building the theater, I just can't swallow spending 8 bills for a toy I use once every few months...
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on July 09, 2018, 12:01:07 pm
I'm so tempted to order the pro upgrade but I've been hemorrhaging money with building the theater, I just can't swallow spending 8 bills for a toy I use once every few months...

If I were in your shoes, I would strongly consider a Samsung Odyssey, which can sometimes be had for $399 on sale.  Depending on the titles you like to play, you might not even miss the lighthouse tracking.  It would give you most of the benefits of the Vive Pro, while you wait for the next generation of devices.  If you end up with two functional lighthouses, it's even possible to use your Vive controls with it.

The 2.0 lighthouses probably aren't more accurate, but they are cheaper to produce and less prone to failure (only one motor.)  They also increase the range, which may or may not be a good thing, if your environment is prone to issues from reflective surfaces.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on July 09, 2018, 12:12:08 pm
That controller is pretty cool but I had to chuckle at this, "unique form factor that allows you to let go at any time without dropping the controller."  Wrist strap confirmed.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on July 09, 2018, 03:10:06 pm
That controller is pretty cool but I had to chuckle at this, "unique form factor that allows you to let go at any time without dropping the controller."  Wrist strap confirmed.

If you are referring to the "knuckles" controller, it's not a wrist strap.  The latest iteration is actually a well-though-out, adjustable band which extends across the back of the user's hand, and which also positions the controller to take proper advantage of the capacitive finger sensors.  This affixes the controller to your hand, be it open or closed.  A wrist strap just lets a controller dangle when dropped.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on July 10, 2018, 10:04:14 am
Ah, yes, sorry.  "Hand strap."  They're $5 on Amazon.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on July 10, 2018, 11:44:17 am
They're $5 on Amazon.

No link = doesn't exist :)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: nexusmtz on July 11, 2018, 02:12:29 am
Reminded me a lot of a camcorder strap. They're also commonly used for SLR cameras. Doesn't make it a bad thing, as long as nobody thinks they invented it.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on July 11, 2018, 12:21:45 pm
I can't believe we are discussing this (thanks Jim.)

They said it was "unique", but that doesn't imply a new invention.  It is unique to the way any other VR controller is currently being used.  Now, if there were other contraptions out there, or even after-market add-ons which affixed a VR controller to the users' hand so absolute positioning isn't lost, I could understand.  But just the fact that they have gone through several iterations of the design just to get it right, should indicate that this isn't your grandma's camcorder strap :)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on July 11, 2018, 12:41:37 pm
Skryim PSVR is down to $30 on Amazon... I feel like this will be $20 soon, but it's been banned until the dissertation was written...
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on July 20, 2018, 09:45:25 am
So, yeah, Skyrim.  It’s janky but wow.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on July 21, 2018, 11:14:42 am
I work with a guy and he keeps talking about how he is addicted to Skyrim Vr, I am just like really why? the added VR interactions suck, the game just looks like Skyrim, VR does not seem to add much of anything to it. Turns out he has never played Skyrim or any of the Elder scroll games before. For me I am like one of the only handful of people that played Arena which was their first open world game back with my 486 computer. I was addicted to it because I had never experienced an open world game before. So I guess if you have never experienced the magic of an Elder scroll game being introduced to it in VR is a good way.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on July 21, 2018, 07:48:58 pm
Let people enjoy things.

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on July 23, 2018, 10:43:51 am
I've never played Skyrim in pancake, so it's on my list for when a good sale comes along.  The style of game never really appealed to me that much, but I expect that it would be more entertaining in VR.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: opt2not on July 23, 2018, 01:30:13 pm
I'm interested in how an open-world game plays in VR. But I can't play through Skyrim, or Fallout 4 again.  No, I'd like to see a open-world VR game that isn't a port of an existing one. Something that is built for VR from the get-go. Sadly, no one is going to take on that kind of investment for VR right now. We're not there yet where original AAA game budgets are going to see the light of day in VR.  Not until VR set-ups get cheaper, and the user base is much larger.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on July 24, 2018, 03:51:18 am
ViveCraft (MineCraft) has been the best port IMO. I played the forest in VR last night and it was janky as hell, couldn't play more then an hour before taking the headset off.

A ground up open world would be awesome but you are right, no one is going to invest their time and money.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: Mike A on July 24, 2018, 05:27:28 am
Open world VR porn with FFB....on your junk.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: pbj on July 24, 2018, 09:39:24 am
Easier to just sit on your hand for a couple minutes and put your face 4 inches away from the TV.....

Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: opt2not on August 14, 2018, 10:43:53 am
I haven’t gone through all 21 pages of this thread, but has anyone tried VR painting and animation? There’s a program called Quill that you can paint in VR and it also supports animation frames.

http://youtu.be/AE50C3YQHYI (http://youtu.be/AE50C3YQHYI)

Goro Fujita’s stuff is incredible. He’s got a bunch of clips of some wonderful VR paintings, and I believe he does daily paintings as well. I could se myself getting into VR for this stuff.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: 05SRT4 on August 14, 2018, 11:07:28 am
Very cool, thanks for sharing that.

I have only done a little bit of the Tilt Brush painting and Sculpting.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on August 14, 2018, 08:54:41 pm
I haven’t gone through all 21 pages of this thread, but has anyone tried VR painting and animation?

I've played around with Tiltbrush a bit and found it challenging. I consider myself a reasonably competent digital artist, but painting in three dimensions is a whole different level. More akin to sculpting I imagine.

It's really cool to load up things other people have created and just sit inside them. Like being inside a painting. It's trippy and awesome.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on August 14, 2018, 08:59:11 pm
New headset news today. StarVR has announced the StarVR One headset: 210 degree FOV (horizontal), built-in eye tracking, 90 Hz AMOLED display, and SteamVR compatible (w/ new 2.0 base stations).

They're apparently targeting enterprise markets and this has led to price rumors of anywhere from $2k to $10k a pop. Still, it's a neat glimpse of VR tech that I imagine will eventually make its way to the consumer level.

https://techcrunch.com/2018/08/14/starvrs-one-headset-flaunts-eye-tracking-and-a-double-wide-field-of-view/
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: brandon on August 18, 2018, 04:33:00 am
I wish StarVR would make a cheaper consumer version. I'd be happy with a Vive Pro... But I'm not paying $1500 for that whole setup when it's barely better than the Samsung Odyssey.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on August 18, 2018, 04:28:51 pm
I wish StarVR would make a cheaper consumer version. I'd be happy with a Vive Pro... But I'm not paying $1500 for that whole setup when it's barely better than the Samsung Odyssey.

Prices should come down all around in time. The Rift and original Vive have fallen at lot in price since launch.

Looks like there is also a new/updated version of the Odyssey in the works as well: https://www.cnet.com/news/samsungs-leaked-odyssey-headset-a-reboot-for-microsofts-vr-ambitions/ (https://www.cnet.com/news/samsungs-leaked-odyssey-headset-a-reboot-for-microsofts-vr-ambitions/)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: brandon on August 18, 2018, 04:43:13 pm
Yeah, i read about the new Odyssey. I own a Rift currently and used to own an Odyssey.  I loved the image quality on the Odyssey but the controller tracking was crap for a lot of stuff. The Rift on other hand has great controllers and tracking but the "god rays" drive me nuts.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on August 21, 2018, 11:55:18 am
If I were to guess, and I am, the new Odyssey model is a refresh in an attempt to address the fitment issues with quite a few users, myself included.  I was able to address these with some extra straps and slight modification, but some aren't as handy or willing to go to those lengths for something which should be comfortable out-of-the-box.  The on-board bluetooth sounds like a nice addition as well.  Not sure what the SDE reduction part is about, but if it ends up being a filter which reduces the image sharpness, I think I'd rather deal with the sub-pixels. There's a bit of silly speculation about native SteamVR compatibility (i.e. lighthouse tracking) but I seriously doubt that this will be the case.  It'll be interesting, nonetheless.

On a side note, I put mine on the other night after not using it for a while, and I was absolutely stunned at how fast the controllers are picked back up by the tracking, once it is lost outside the view of the cameras (which is larger than the viewport FOV.)  It's literally a seamless re-acquisition now.  I.e. I'm not able to see the controller anywhere it should not be now.  MS has been doing some great work in the tuning of the Mixed Reality platform since launch, and seems not to show signs of slowing.  The PSVR2 had better have some tricks up it's sleeve, if it's going to compete with WMR once it hits the MS consoles.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: brandon on August 21, 2018, 12:27:31 pm
An Odyssey with lighthouse would be AMAZING. It would be a death blow to the Vive IMO.  I may have to pick up another Odyssey either way. My main issue was controller tracking. Playing archery games was a real chore because tracking close to the face was not good.  Maybe they'll address that in the refresh. On a side note, I'd love to see somebody right software to use VR controllers as lightguns for Mame cabinets.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on August 22, 2018, 09:58:16 pm
I bought the Lenovo because a lot of people were saying it was the best mixed reality set for the price and I got to say I don’t like it at all. I don't find it to be very comfortable it does not sit in a fixed position without wobbling on your head. The worst part of it  is that I think the display sucks, It might be a little more clearer when looking directly down the middle of the lenses compared to the Vive and Rift; soon as you shift your eyes blur central, it is unacceptable on how bad it is.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: brandon on August 22, 2018, 10:09:53 pm
Yeah, it being out of focus on the edges is due to poor optics. The screen is higher resolution than either Rift or Vive but the optics are crap. Also,  it has LCD screens vs the OLED in the Rift, Vive and Odyssey.  It's a nice entry into VR if you get one for under $200 but not worth an more than that.  My dream setup would have the ergonomics of the Rift, lighthouse tracking of the Vive, high res panels of the Odyssey and non fresnel optics like Gear VR or OSVR HDK.  8 thought about hacking together my own from pieces of different kits but it's just not worth the trouble.  People have had luck changing the lenses in the Vive for ones from GearVR. They've also gotten Vive controllers working with the Odyssey.  Hopefully within a year or two OpenXR will be a thing and make this much easier.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on August 24, 2018, 01:59:41 pm
They've also gotten Vive controllers working with the Odyssey.

You're welcome ;)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: brandon on August 24, 2018, 02:34:26 pm
Was that you, Randy? Lol i saw the Reddit posts and was immediately upset that I sold my Odyssey.  If only i could do the same with my Oculus touch controllers
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on August 24, 2018, 03:35:47 pm
Was that you, Randy? Lol i saw the Reddit posts and was immediately upset that I sold my Odyssey.  If only i could do the same with my Oculus touch controllers

:) I like doing things others claim to be impossible, especially if Vive fanboys are the ones making the claims.  Others have picked up on it, and it's supposedly easier now to get things sync'd up.  The WMR controls work well enough now for most of the games I enjoy, so I haven't played with the new software yet.

I haven't heard of anyone doing it with the Touch controllers.  I think it may be easier with the Vive, as the SteamVR integration is pretty tight with WMR.  But if you can get the Rift controllers to be locked into the SteamVR space, and be functional control-wise, the methods should be the same.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: brandon on August 24, 2018, 07:56:19 pm
I'd love to ser someone take a WMR headset, put it on top of a Mame cabinet with the cameras facing the players and uae the controllers as lightguns. For $150-200 i think I'd be a nice option. I would think the accuracy would be better than anything else to date aside from CRT based guns.  I can believe somebody hasn't done this already. Lighthouse tech would be even better
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on August 25, 2018, 01:31:41 am
I'd love to ser someone take a WMR headset, put it on top of a Mame cabinet with the cameras facing the players and uae the controllers as lightguns. For $150-200 i think I'd be a nice option. I would think the accuracy would be better than anything else to date aside from CRT based guns.  I can believe somebody hasn't done this already. Lighthouse tech would be even better

I think it might be a poor use of the technology.  Before doing all of that, you might as well just put on the headset, and enjoy any of the myriad shooting games in VR.  I.e. could it work?  Probably.  Would the experience be anywhere close to what is achievable with VR?  Probably not.
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: brandon on August 25, 2018, 01:42:12 am
Yeah,  VR is much more compelling but sometimes you just want to play some CarnEvil with your buddy. Lol
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: RandyT on August 25, 2018, 10:11:24 am
Yeah,  VR is much more compelling but sometimes you just want to play some CarnEvil with your buddy. Lol

I can certainly understand that.  Maybe at some point someone will try doing that. 

For a single player experience, some work has been done to virtualize the whole arcade machine to play old school arcade lightgun games.  It may have been abandoned though.

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMVn52vbp88#)

VR Lightgun Arcade Machine (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMVn52vbp88)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: fallacy on August 30, 2018, 09:59:29 pm
When that StarVR news came out I was just going to ignore it thinking the hole thing it was nonsense from the price to the claims with no one reviewing it.

I follow this youtuber for VR, he was testing out the StarVR and giving it all positive, stating it does not skew the image or anything with its human like FOV.  What the hell when are we going to get these upgrades, if they can do it why have oculus and vive not come out with this yet; I am starting to get irritated with all of this..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvFBUvfpQJ8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvFBUvfpQJ8)
Title: Re: I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing
Post by: shponglefan on August 31, 2018, 11:11:22 am
What the hell w