Build Your Own Arcade Controls Forum
Main => Main Forum => Topic started by: vertygo on September 11, 2009, 11:47:46 am
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http://www.surface-tension.net/ (http://www.surface-tension.net/)
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Yeah, what a great idea. Rip-off st, one of our valued members.
STFU!
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I hadn't seen their coat hooks before :)
I like 'em!
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Yeah, shoulda maybe checked their origin before starting the thread...
Higher-priced than some, yes, but they have a higher-quality to match and are aimed at a certain demographic with a higher budget. If you understood what goes into these tables, you'd pick slightly better words.
Though I'm sure ST is flattered another person is impressed with their excellent designs.
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Whoa Ginsu, don't get your knickers in a twist.
I didn't comment on quality, I just said over-priced. It certainly targets a certain buyer, and it's not the common hobbyist.
The design is awesome, yes.
People copy all sorts of designs, from the old classics to other members' machines.
Just relax.. breathe..
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I just got aggitated because it was a site belonging to a respected member.
If we were talking about pinballjim, I wouldn't have said a word. :)
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well overpriced is a relative term here, one person might say over priced, another might say expensive, and still yet another might call them affordable.
so he's intitled to that opinion.
as far as copying them.. well they just look like cocktails.. except they're larger so they're coffee tables instead.
nothing particularly unique here.. although if there is something unique about it they can file for a patent.
although if i remember patent law correctly it's perfectly fine to make something thats patented as long as you're not manufacturing them for sell.
IE: you could make your own playstation 3 from scratch if you wanted.. as long as you are'nt selling them, although there is a certain amount of software in those which would be covered under copy right laws .
im guessing no pat is on those tables though anyway.
anyhow i think people get a little to uptight around here just because he's selling those tables does'nt mean you have to buy them to build one for your self.. that goes for a lot of things.
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(http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/wick780/PWNED.png)
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well overpriced is a relative term here, one person might say over priced, another might say expensive, and still yet another might call them affordable.
It's always a relative term.
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Beretta:
My point was that "overpriced, good for copying" came across as "hey, here's a neat idea. Too expensive, though, so F that guy and make your own"
Which isn't a problem normally, but st's a respected member here. Anyone who isn't in the community is fair game, though ;D
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Beretta:
My point was that "overpriced, good for copying" came across as "hey, here's a neat idea. Too expensive, though, so F that guy and make your own"
Which isn't a problem normally, but st's a respected member here. Anyone who isn't in the community is fair game, though ;D
thats exactly the kinda mentality i take exception with.
there seems to be some twisted morality on this board about who it's fair to "rip off" and who it is'nt.. personally i dont see it as ripping off anyone, if the build quality is good people will buy it, those who can't afford it or think it's over priced will build their own.
anything more then this and i think we're building a type of "welfare" system.
i dont see turnarcades getting all pissy because he makes cabs and people on this board still make their own (much disrespect to him).
or who is it again that sells hacked gamepads? i can't remember anyway how dare anyone hack their own pad's.. he's providing a service and on the board BUY THEM.
ya it's silly is'nt it?
well overpriced is a relative term here, one person might say over priced, another might say expensive, and still yet another might call them affordable.
It's always a relative term.
that was my point in case you missed it, 3 different people might say 3 different things.. all relative to their perception of the product and the value of money.
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or who is it again that sells hacked gamepads? i can't remember anyway how dare anyone hack their own pad's.. he's providing a service and on the board BUY THEM.
That'd be me. Hell, I even have a tutorial on how to DIY.
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beretta:
You got me all wrong. I don't have a problem with anyone making their own version of st's cocktail (as long as they don't sell it). It was the way the TC presented it that bothered me.
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or who is it again that sells hacked gamepads? i can't remember anyway how dare anyone hack their own pad's.. he's providing a service and on the board BUY THEM.
That'd be me. Hell, I even have a tutorial on how to DIY.
Yeah, you've gone out of your way to answer my questions on DC pad hacks.
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ok i think i get your meaning.
you did'nt like that he was calling them overpriced right?
your first post said he was ripping him off.. so i thought your primary objection was because he suggested copying the idea.
which really to me just seems like a oversized cocktail.. but erm anyway.
ya i was trying to drag HarumaN or Turnarcades into it.. just wanted to use you guys as examples of people providing a service on the board that dont get bent outta shape when other people still do it them selves.
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ok i think i get your meaning.
you did'nt like that he was calling them overpriced right?
Well, I didn't like that he said they're overpriced, then followed up immediately with saying they're "good for copying". It just seemed disrespectful.
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Disrespectful but true. I'm not sure how "designer coffee table" + "arcade parts" = $6000 (that's just the cheaper walnut table). I'd love to buy just the table and control drawer. How much is that worth? Surely under $1000.
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Disrespectful but true.
It was just the way he wrote it.
I think it IS overpriced. I think it looks uncomfortable to play. I would have no problem with someone saying, "Hey, look at my attempt at my own version of the surface tension cocktail."
Like I said, it was all in the wording.
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This community lives and breathes by borrowing ideas. I don't see why it's so upsetting that someone sees a good idea that's priced too high, but thinks he could build one himself.
The whole idea of protecting the intellectual property of an emulation machine is kind of ironic to me... ;)
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This community lives and breathes by borrowing ideas. I don't see why it's so upsetting that someone sees a good idea that's priced too high, but thinks he could build one himself.
As I've already said, that wasn't the part that bothered me.
It wasn't what was said, it was how he said it.
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Disrespectful but true. I'm not sure how "designer coffee table" + "arcade parts" = $6000 (that's just the cheaper walnut table). I'd love to buy just the table and control drawer. How much is that worth? Surely under $1000.
In terms of parts maybe, but the cost of CNC machining, labour for assembling, research, development, advertising and then the token profit cut makes it sound about right. Don't forget the UK economy is different to the US, and the price of materials, advertising and everything is a lot more expensive over here. Based on my sources and enquiries, the price sounds about right.
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It wasn't what was said, it was how he said it.
Well, "STFU" isn't exactly lovey-dovey language, either...
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Well, "STFU" isn't exactly lovey-dovey language, either...
I agree.
I mean why bring the Southern Tenant Farmers' Union into this argument - they've only ever done good things.
(http://theactivist.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/stfu.gif)
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I mean why bring the Southern Tenant Farmers' Union into this argument - they've only ever done good things.
(http://theactivist.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/stfu.gif)
That's what I meant! It was like "JERSEY REPRESENT," only for the farmers' union....
<_<
>_>
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I've heard that standard retail mark-up is six (6) times the cost to make an item.
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I missed this one yesterday somehow. Though I'm not sure what else I can bring to the party.
You got me all wrong. I don't have a problem with anyone making their own version of st's cocktail (as long as they don't sell it). It was the way the TC presented it that bothered me.
Thanks for the support Ginsu. I read all sorts of things about surface tension systems and stuff like this is common. It was a little weird to read it on this forum, but I have to take the rough with the smooth.
In terms of parts maybe, but the cost of CNC machining, labour for assembling, research, development, advertising and then the token profit cut makes it sound about right. Don't forget the UK economy is different to the US, and the price of materials, advertising and everything is a lot more expensive over here. Based on my sources and enquiries, the price sounds about right.
Thanks Craig. Yes, things are a little more expensive over here and every time I stock up on new parts, the price has gone up again. If we were churning hundreds of these out per year, the cost could come right down as they could be produced in China. But we're small quantity and both systems are hand-made by local cabinet makers.
This doesn't leave a massive margin but enough for me to keep going as I enjoy what I do.
Whoa Ginsu, don't get your knickers in a twist.
I didn't comment on quality, I just said over-priced. It certainly targets a certain buyer, and it's not the common hobbyist.
The design is awesome, yes.
People copy all sorts of designs, from the old classics to other members' machines.
Just relax.. breathe..
Vertygo, I guess it's all flattery. I am looking at a certain buyer but it's not as simple as someone with pockets full of cash. It's about someone that wants to play some arcade childhood memories, but not have an upright sitting in their house or apartment. The cost may seem high, but I'm not going to create a product which sounds great on paper, but when you get it home is made with cheap and nasty components giving you a feeling of regret. I'm talking about the sound system, computer, LCD and on the front-line - the control panel. I guess what I'm trying to say is that you do get what you pay for.
I love the arcade-at-home hobby and the first system I built was a cocktail, getting loads of help from here... 7 or 8 years ago now. That is what inspired me to make a coffee table with discreet controls/screen.
There are also a few other UK-produced systems (i.e. not made in China) where the prices are a little higher than the competition. There is a certain pride in keeping as much as possible produced within your own country, but unfortunately it is reflected in the price.
I've heard that standard retail mark-up is six (6) times the cost to make an item.
Not sure what to say here apart from LOL... and I haven't typed that in years!
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I've heard that standard retail mark-up is six (6) times the cost to make an item.
For fashion clothes and restaurants if you only count the cost of the materials, maybe. But fashion designers know they will be copied, so they need the high markup to cover the designing and walk-way shows (and to be able to have all the sales). And that's ignoring the other big costs: sales personal/waiters hourly rates and retail space leasing costs.
So 6 times cost of materials is needed to survive for some markets. (About 3 out of 4 of all resturants go out of business in the first year; one reason is they think they can undercut their competition, but find out they can't.)
But that high a markup is not needed, and won't sell, for most other markets.
Material is money, time is money, space is money. Always include the letter two if you want your business to survive. And buyers, be aware of all three so you can see the difference between a resonable price, a true deal, and too good to be true (ie: selling stolen goods or a store about to go out of business).
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I agree, With Rebel here, people to often forget to add their time into the $ equation
I challenge anyone to make a surface tension from scratch (with no plans)
and include a decent hourly wage for what ST is charging, I don't think you could do it
unless maybe you were both a master carpenter and computer genius
If I calculated the time into my projects the would cost like a million dollars :D, my learning curve is so steep :banghead:
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These items aren't available at Walmart, Costco, or your local discount superstore.
They're handcrafted as opposed to mass produced. There's always a price difference between the two, as ST mentioned.
I have no doubt these items are solid and high quality. I personally believe that you get what you pay for, and buying cheap ends up costing more in the long run, because you have to keep replacing cheap stuff after it falls apart.
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Disrespectful but true. I'm not sure how "designer coffee table" + "arcade parts" = $6000 (that's just the cheaper walnut table). I'd love to buy just the table and control drawer. How much is that worth? Surely under $1000.
In terms of parts maybe, but the cost of CNC machining, labour for assembling, research, development, advertising and then the token profit cut makes it sound about right. Don't forget the UK economy is different to the US, and the price of materials, advertising and everything is a lot more expensive over here. Based on my sources and enquiries, the price sounds about right.
price on a lot of items is very dependent on the economy, on the value of your dollar, as well as how large your country is. More land = more resources. or in the case of many nations, how little they are willing to pay their workers. but people dont realize that a lot of the time. bottom line many factors go into the price of that wooden cabinet you buy.
to build an arcade cabinet from scratch is twice as expensive in South Florida as it is in Alabama. Why is that?
cause theyve already logged everything that was loggable down there. its all shipped in from North Florida and Alabama/Georgia.
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a sheet of high grade plywood here is $21 bucks.
in Fort lauderdale its double that and during hurricane season its triple or four times if they make an annoucement that most stores are sold out, if you can find any.
hurricane season all the vultures start coming out.
they will buy lowes and home depot completely out of plywood then you see them on the side of the road selling it for $100 a board.
same thing with gas there.
main reason the gas stations run out is twofold.
everyone fills up naturally,
and some folks fill a whole trailer full of 55 gallon drums of gas hoping it runs out.
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What brand LCD monitor is in these things? I can understand the cost of low-run items, but still...
WITHOUT a PC it still costs $4,980.25 usd.
Seriously.
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I am going to have to agree with RayB on this one. If it was a oneshot custom made thing for one and only one order, then 6 grand sounds about right for the complete system, but 4+ grand for the table and CP (even if that included the screen) is a bit steep. I have no problem with ST, it is fully in his rights to make these and sell them at this price point, but it still seems like a very steep price point for what it is. One of my friends is a master woodworker and charges an arm an a leg to do custom work; I will ask him how much it would cost for him to make a similar table using high quality wood. For all I know, he will say something like 5000 bucks... If that is the case, then so be it.
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I can understand how those overseas look at the price once 'exchange rated' and see it this way - four figures is a lot on most people's budget. Remember though that we all have the advantage of being part of this scene and have built cabinets ourselves from scratch, so this also swings our opinion somewhat - to the lay man this hobby and the value of the technology in an arcade machine is viewed very differently.
Again, being on the Brit side of things I've gotta defend this. So let's break it down...
A 'retro-fit' table is £2499
£375 is lost in VAT
Assuming a brand new 19" regular aspect monitor £100 (regular aspect is now hard to come by new and I know from speaking to ST before that they have to have a certain brand with a large vertical viewing angle)
Assuming a control panel parts cost of around £180 (Yes parts are pricey here and I'm assuming a neat, crimped, EU-approved wiring job)
Misc cables for power, monitor etc. of £30
Tempered tinted glass at around £50
Speakers, connectivity ports and wiring - £80
CNC-cut metal control panel - £50
CNC-cut, sanded, lacquered wood - £100
Misc custom bolts, screws, hinges, catches, drawer and panel mechanism, feet - £50
Labour £7 @ 30 hours - £210
Workshop running costs for 20 hours (including premises rates) - £30
Packaging - £10
Software, licencing - £50
Advertising - £5
Misc business running costs - £20 (touch-ups, tool wear, glues+adhesives, solder - yes all have to be factored in!)
This lot alone brings it down to £1100, and I'm probably forgetting a lot of points here which need to be factored in. Couple this with the relatively low output of sales compared to a 'expendable goods' industry like the clothing industry, and a sub- £1000 figure doesn't go too far. Money has to go back into research, buying new parts for trial and development, designers, web hosting.... Who knows what other aspects go into ST's business plan?
The only reason we can bring our cabinets at the price we do is because we are a relatively small-scale operation and still hand-build our machines, and we are aiming at a different demographic. I'd say a reasonable profit margin in this business is 20-25% but even that can be tough to work to and not as much as it sounds when you consider the low production rates. We average 2-3 full machines a month, plus a few kits, so it's not aways as profitable as the retail price sounds. The exchange rate cost to the dollar is irrelevant as it's the cost of production in this country that has to determine the price.
I'm sure ST will echo these points.
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I feel like I have to defend my product pricing now :(
I'm not going to break it all down, but I'll touch on a few aspects...
What brand LCD monitor is in these things? I can understand the cost of low-run items, but still...
WITHOUT a PC it still costs $4,980.25 usd.
Seriously.
The cost of a unit WITHOUT a PC is actually $4125.
I use Samsung LCDs. Wide viewing angle (PVA). These are nearly £300 (which equates to nearly $500) plus the VAT.
I am going to have to agree with RayB on this one. If it was a oneshot custom made thing for one and only one order, then 6 grand sounds about right for the complete system, but 4+ grand for the table and CP (even if that included the screen) is a bit steep. I have no problem with ST, it is fully in his rights to make these and sell them at this price point, but it still seems like a very steep price point for what it is. One of my friends is a master woodworker and charges an arm an a leg to do custom work; I will ask him how much it would cost for him to make a similar table using high quality wood. For all I know, he will say something like 5000 bucks... If that is the case, then so be it.
As I have mentioned, I'm not high volume, so I build to order in small quantities. The drawer mechanics took a a fair amount of time and money to perfect.
The screen IS included as putting in your own PC is one thing, but fitting the screen would be much more involved.
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Craig's pricing isn't a million miles out.
The screen I have mentioned. The sound-system is more than double. I don't CNC my own table components, they are built by a cabinet maker which far exceeds £100.
Anyway, that's just an idea of what goes into it. Any more isn't really for the public domain.
If you have the skills, sure you can build one of these for yourself much cheaper... but that's the same with most things.
I've always been happy to offer advise to people on the board and will continue to do so.
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One thing that I find to be a nearly universal truth amongst video arcade hobbyists is that they complain about price and/or quality far more often than, say, pinheads.
Inexpensive, mass-produced cabinets are referred to a cheap pieces of crap. Well-made objets d'art are referred to as vastly overpriced.
I'm reasonably certain that I know enough to build nice custom cabinets and would never, ever, consider doing so professionally -- simply because I couldn't do it at a price point that would make it worth my time. I can 48-in-1 old cabs and make far more money, but I would still probably be labeled as overpriced.
:dunno
I have immense amounts of respect for the folks who build cabs professionally and turn out quality products in a reasonable timeframe (this is important!) at a price that people are willing to pay.
:cheers:
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not sure to play pacman on that or lay a girl on top of it :lol