Build Your Own Arcade Controls Forum
Main => Main Forum => Topic started by: RyoriNoTetsujin on July 31, 2009, 08:08:15 am
-
Sorry, wall of text incoming...
Ok, this is going to sound peculiar perhaps to the veterans of this board (and the thread title is half-joking, for the record) ... but this scenario has literally been keeping me awake this morning. Hear me out...
I have been itching for a new build project. In particular I have some design ideas for a cocktail cab project.
I already have a scratch built/custom cab, "Quarter Heaven," which I have been very happy with for a couple of years now. (Here are pictures from back when it was first completed: http://quarterheaven.livejournal.com/) It was a great learning experience, and actually helped to get me through a tough time in my life. These days, however, it gets very little play time...
We host a dinner/gaming (PS3, Wii, the cab, sometimes poker) party usually about once a month, and even with a steady flow of new guests the interest is only nominal. "Wow, you designed and built that? That's cool! And I can play Joust? ... oh, it's my turn at the drum kit for Rock Band..." and then she sits and Circo's videos play, at random, into the night... and THAT doesn't even attract players...
(Don't misunderstand me; I personally fire it up at least 3 or 4 times a month and play alone, but I didn't build it just for myself - I thought it would get more play and use.)
At any rate, now I have this cocktail idea bounding around in my head, and it's a good one. It will tie together a couple of things (I plan on it being an always-on file/media server as well, and thanks to the "Cthulu board," the modular controls I have in mind will come in handy elsewhere...) By now you can see where this is going.
Since money, space, and materials are all interconnected and at a relative premium in my case (my apartment is nice and all, but it's not really big enough for two cabs) ... should I sacrifice Quarter Heaven's guts to this new project? I'd love to hear from anyone on this, but in particular I'd like to hear from fellow scratch-builders: Do any of you guys feel like this might be like killing a baby?
-
Thats a nice cab, you have the wrong friends. Anyone that would rather play Rock Band than Robotron is a schmuck. ;D
I can't tell you how many people have come over and gone nuts over the fact that I have arcade games. They range from people from work that stop over for the first time to the service guy working on the heater (he was a pinball dude, but definitely a kindred spirit).
I say do what works for ya, but to me a cocktail cab has nowhere near the presence of an upright. I never saw them in arcades or anything, I think the only time I ever saw them "in the wild" was in Pizza Huts lobby so I never really connected with them like the uprights.
-
Thats a nice cab, you have the wrong friends. Anyone that would rather play Rock Band than Robotron is a schmuck. ;D
+1 ;D
I'm about to gut my first cabinet for its monitor, computer and iPac2. I'm ripping the stuff out of a cocktail and using it for an upright. I'm definitely torn by it though. I spent so much time on the cocktail and it works but I never got to 100% on it and there have been lots of innovations in the last 3 years - I do plan to finish the cocktail cabinet sometime in the future though - it will sit lifeless in my basement until that time.
I know exactly how you feel - do whatever makes you happy. Only playing that thing 3-4 times a month is a shame and if you think a cocktail cab will get more play time then go for it. :cheers:
-
It's not cannibalism it's recycling ;D
but maybe that's what soccer teams that crash in the Andes say
-
Hehe very appropriate title...I have been contemplating this very thing myself. I want to replace my first upright for a number of reasons:
- I was a newb builder and have learned tons since building it
- I don't like the angles and would now make them much smoother
- I would take more time on finishing touches...I rushed too much where I shouldn't have
- I learned how to use a router
- She is way to big to ever get out of the house...in fact the cab will likely never leave the room it's in!
- etc etc
But then I look at "her" standing there and I feel guilty cause it was the first project...Its like looking at pictures of those arcade graveyards in the late 90's all over again and this time becoming the "Jason" or "Michael" that committed those crimes...
But at the end of the day I know I will pick up the axe and go to town, so to speak, and just make the next one that much better.
-
Back when I was going to use a Gateway Destination 36" monitor in my cab I had Quarter Heaven booked marked as an awesome example of a cabinet using an over-sized monitor. :cheers:
I really like your cabinet so I am biased in voting that you should leave it alone. I can understand the desire to build another. My first isn't even done yet and I am already thinking about the next one.
-
Your cab is awesome, you have the wrong friends fo sho.
changing what its in isnt going to change what it does. no point in killing a killer cab
-
Agreed. Just had a look at your link...the thing is large but a beauty...mine, even with attachment, I could see myself swinging an axe at...yours...not a chance.
Pardon the question...but what is wrong with your friends? They not of the arcade generation? lol
-
That's a great cab...using it's parts for a cocktail still won't solve the problem of your friends not wanting to play. Get new friends. ;D
-
Thats a nice cab, you have the wrong friends. Anyone that would rather play Rock Band than Robotron is a schmuck. ;D
+1 ;D
-1 :badmood:
-
Thats a nice cab, you have the wrong friends. Anyone that would rather play Rock Band than Robotron is a schmuck. ;D
+1 ;D
-1 :badmood:
schmuck
-
Wow, that is a nicely done cab.
Honestly, I'd say billpa is right. Moving things to a cocktail isn't going to make people want to play the cab any more than on the upright. Heck maybe even less, because it'll be much more inconspicuous.
I guess my feeling would be this
There's really 3 elements at play here
1) Your love of playing the games
2) Your love of building the cabinets
3) Your friends' love of playing the games
You're likely not gonna change (3)
so the real question is between 1 and 2. If you love building cabs (or just building) more than playing, I'd say gut it. Use the experience to make the next build even better.
But if you lean toward (2) and the build aspect just prevented you from enjoying the games for a few months, then I'd say leave well enough alone and just enjoy your cab!
-
Thanks for the input thus far, folks. So much to consider!
I think I'm less concerned with the fact that my friends/guests don't play. You can't really force someone to be "into it," even if they are of the appropriate generation. I'm 30, most of my friends are within 5-10 years of that either way (mostly on the older side.)
In fact, if it were only me playing... which, I guess, if I'm being honest, it really is... I wouldn't mind the cocktail at all (obviously, or I wouldn't be thinking about building one.)
Thats a nice cab, you have the wrong friends. Anyone that would rather play Rock Band than Robotron is a schmuck. ;D
LOL. ;D That said, as an aside, I do love RockBand and modern gaming - and I love the live/in-person social aspect games like RB have helped to create. LOVE Robotron though I do (notice the twin-joysticks on QH?) you can't really do that with Robotron...
The thing is, I'm effing proud of Quarter Heaven. Granted it's not perfect, there are some definite carpentry errors if you look really closely... but damnit... I designed that from nothing. I'm no engineer or architect (I have an MFA in Acting for christsakes!) but I saw something I wanted to do and I did it, and there it stands -- and it's a behemoth! And that's a good thing, but then there's this:
... I want to replace my first upright for a number of reasons:
- I was a newb builder and have learned tons since building it
- I don't like the angles and would now make them much smoother
- I would take more time on finishing touches...I rushed too much where I shouldn't have
- I learned how to use a router
- She is way to big to ever get out of the house...in fact the cab will likely never leave the room it's in!
- etc etc
With the exception of not liking the design, I echo Epyx entirely. I want to do more, build more... but I'm not in a position to do it without some sacrifice. Hearing other people's opinions/experience is helpful ... keep it coming!
-
If your friends don't play the games on your upright (which is sweet!) I doubt they'll give any more time to the cocktail :-\. Before you look at dismantling QH you might try to add some other emulators to see if that pulls in any more interest. If your friends didn't spend much time in arcades they might instead be lured in with some SNES or Genesis flashbacks.
If you do go with the cocktail plan I think you will enjoy it. They are fun cabinets to build and on slow nights they can still hold a game of Scrabble or Blokus while serving as a jukebox.
-
Forgot to add...maybe you need to show your friends some more social games...group trackball games like shuffle shot, world class bowling, american horeshoes, shuuz, golden tee, etc. Or even some fun 4 player games like Sunset Riders, Simpsons, X-Men, etc.
-
Before you look at dismantling QH you might try to add some other emulators to see if that pulls in any more interest.
Yeah... I've got NES, SNES and Gen full-collections and Virtual Pinball running on it (all via MaLa.) One roommate just wants to play Medieval Madness and frickin' Uo Poko (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uo_Poko). I guess I can't blame her for that, both are good games, but damn there are SO many other games. The other roommate is too busy with Fallout 3 on his laptop, and continually breaking our FiOS router trying to "optimize" it, to bother with the classics...
... It doesn't help that just a few hours ago (just after I wrote the first post) I got a great 21" Dell monitor for free off of Craig's List for the cocktail ...
Forgot to add...maybe you need to show your friends some more social games...group trackball games like shuffle shot, world class bowling, american horeshoes, shuuz, golden tee, etc. Or even some fun 4 player games like Sunset Riders, Simpsons, X-Men, etc.
Actually, World Class Bowling WAS pretty popular with my previous roommates, as was The Simpsons for an evening ... and I did get my Fallout playing roommate some action by setting him and this one girl up with TMNT -- seriously, even he acknowledged that the next morning!
What? She apparently really liked TMNT... ;D
Good memories... UGH... this is making it more difficult... I mean, stuff like that would still be possible with a cocktail, just not as massive, right?
-
killing a baby
yup :'(
if you want a cock tail but can't find the room to add it, then at least sell this one and use the money to build a cocktail.. if you take parts off this one you're still left with the shell.. what was you gonna do with it? that still takes up space.
cocktails are nice, they have a certain charm.. they've got some limitations but one of the things they do have working for them as they work pretty good as a table so thats nice.
as for your friends.. screw them, you either love arcades or you dont, go get new ones.
i know a lot of the newer generation dont give a rats ass about arcade machines..
i've got some 14 and 15 year old cousins i thought would be interested, nope they dont care cause they did'nt grow up with them.. playstation and xbox is all they've known.. dont get me wrong i love playstation,xbox too but it's a different kinda love ;)
-
This may be way beyond what you would consider but... why not sell it?
I agree it looks great and you did a great job on it. Sell it so it lives on instead of gutting / killing it. If you sell it you get money for the next projet (presumably enough to have even more options than you do now) and you can have the satisfaction of knowing you built something so well that another person paid good money for it.
Maybe I'm crazy but the idea of my first project living on and being enjoyed by someone else seems better than "I tore it apart to build a new one".
Turn a profit.. enjoy capitolism..
-
Wow!
I looked at the Pics
people that come over don't want to play on that???!!??? ???
man, you do have the wrong friends
I wouldn't be able to get my friends off the thing if had an upright that frekkin sweet!
-
On people rather playing rock band: You can't expect people in a party atmosphere to gravitate towards your cabinet when you have rock band going on. Unless they have a nostolgic love for old arcade games, the draw of the music/rhythm genre is too much for a casual gamer to resist.
On recycling your own cab: Man. Your scratch build reminds me a lot of mine which is nearly finished (isucamper.1up.com (http://isucamper.1up.com)). At this point, after everything I put into it, I couldn't imagine tearing it apart. If I were you, I'd really look at what your motives are for doing what you are thinking. If your really itching for another project and you just don't have the space, why not consider building one as a gift for someone, or to give to some youth center or something?
On Malenko calling me a shmuck: <sigh> You've obviously never heard my rock band rendition of Iron Maiden's "The Trooper." It'd rock your princess pony underoos off.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgqxQmAbTBc[/youtube]
-
It seems to me that people who really love arcade games are relatively uncommon, especially these days. Even as a kid in the '80s, most of my friends were not that into them. They would play occasionally, but it was more to kill time than something they went out of their way to do. The only exception was my friend Corey, and with him, it was only one game (Ikari Warriors in '87).
I have an Ikari Warriors machine now, and Corey comes over and plays it for hours on a daily basis when he's home (his job has him out of the country for most of the year), but he's not even remotely interested in playing my Super Punch-Out or Street Fighter II machine (he didn't play them when we were kids and I was playing them all the time either).
I have another friend who is four years older than me (he's 38) which puts him right in the thick of the "golden era" of arcade games. He talks like he was really into arcade games back then, but I haven't seen any evidence of it. I didn't grow up with him so I don't know if he was really into arcade games back then or not, but I'm guessing that he had a casual interest in them at best, and he exaggerates for the sake of conversation.
Even regarding myself; I was really into arcade games back then, but only a select few; and some of those few I need the original machine/controls to really enjoy (e.g., Super Punch-Out/Punch-Out [dual monitors, plus MAME doesn't get either game right], Ikari Warriors [rotary joysticks], Karate Champ [dual 4-way joysticks]) so I probably woudn't spend much time on a friend's MAME machine either (not that I have a friend with a MAME machine).
-
On Malenko calling me a shmuck: <sigh> You've obviously never heard my rock band rendition of Iron Maiden's "The Trooper." It'd rock your princess pony underoos off.
The embedding doesn't work. Does your rendition go tickety, tick, klack, klack, clickey, klack? Or am I confusing it with the drum part that goes plonk,plonk,plonk,plonk.
I was joking around when I made the initial post, but it definitely came from experience. We have Guitar Hero World Tour and the only people who touch it are my wife and sister-in-law. My buddies are playing my Golden Tee machine or Time Pilot on the MAME cab.
-
I was just funnin, cause it was funny.
-
I've had this issue at anime and gaming events I run. We try to bring out something retro, even something AWESOME and retro like Turtles In Time or something. No matter what it is, the response from most is "Oh cool! I remember that game, that's so awe... Oh hey, let's go play Rock Band/Soul Caliber/Street Fighter IV."
Very few games can honestly stand the test of time compared to other games, though this can also depend on the 'gimmick value' of the game as well. Rock Band has that gimmick, it's not only new and social, but you play tiny plastic instruments. My light gun games, even stuff like Point Blank and Area 51 are a draw, but not for the game, but because it's still fun to shoot the TV.
Where the game is just a game, controlled by a joystick and some buttons though? Not many can keep peoples interest these days.
I find the games with fun control schemes or elaborate cabs have much longer shelf life in comparison. Hence me trying to get some racing wheels for my events, cause I hope to get some Outrun 2 going and it being popular. :)
-
The embedding doesn't work. Does your rendition go tickety, tick, klack, klack, clickey, klack? Or am I confusing it with the drum part that goes plonk,plonk,plonk,plonk.
That video was my rendition. That's me singing.
-
This may be way beyond what you would consider but... why not sell it?
I can't sell it because, like I said, it's far from a perfect construction... It's solid, and it looks great externally (thank you all for the nice comments, by the way!!) but it would probably require a bit more work to be able to travel safely -- even in multiple pieces, as it was designed to do. If I knew/understood then what I know now about woodworking, that might be different...
There's also the legality issue (because who wants to buy a cab with no games included?)
On people rather playing rock band: You can't expect people in a party atmosphere to gravitate towards your cabinet when you have rock band going on. Unless they have a nostolgic love for old arcade games, the draw of the music/rhythm genre is too much for a casual gamer to resist.
My girlfriend and I were just discussing this, actually... it has really been the topic of the day for me. She's not much of a gamer (she enjoys it in social/party scenarios, but probably wouldn't seek it out on her own.) She has noticed that people have a hard time breaking away from the social draw even when they *are* interested in the cab. I can understand that.
She also brought up the sheer massive amount of software in the cab as being a factor. Despite having easy ways to organize by genre, special lists for "Golden Era" games and "All Time Favorites" etc., she pointed out that having 4000+ games at your fingertips can apparently be very intimidating to casuals and even a lot of "regular" gamers!
I honestly hadn't thought of that. ;D
This may be for a different topic, but does anyone have a method for simplifying the presentation such that even a casual might approach without fear? Do the shiny blingy bits (the ledwizzes, the light-up ball top handles, etc.) make a difference?
To bring this to a coda for the evening, I have to tell you this: I put the new 21" monitor on the floor next to QH, and both roommates noticed and commented on it when they saw it. When I mentioned that I was thinking about building another one (and I didn't mention this whole conversation) they didn't seem to mind the idea.
I'm going to marinade on this for a while. Thanks again to everyone who chimed in.
-
well thats a interesting theory.. about TO many games.. i can see how this could be a problem for a casual passer by.
i think the only remedy for such a problem would be to cut down the games..
or make up a list of favorite's say top 50 games.. surely 50 games will be a lot easier for people to handle..
then just keep tha favorites list up.. if someone brings up something special you could always load the full list and load the game up..
i would think 50 games could cover a lot of different areas pretty well without overloading the casual user.
-
I have a Lot to say about this Thread....
First off A cocktail can take up more room than a normal cab. Mainly in the width. not always though. Your friends need to appretaite the classics more Dude. Now why is the younger generation gettin badmouthed here? I'm 20 and love wizard of wor, Adore Robotron, And had to learn a huge amount of skills just to build two cabs, And I'm planning on buying a few more. Not all of us youngsters hate the classics.
-
Ask everyone what their favorite games are and compile a gamelist. Maybe get a dry erase board and post up some high scores, most people like to try and one up each other.
"John got 38,550 in pacman? I can beat that....."
you get the idea
-
I'll let you know how it goes this afternoon... I'm about to gut her. Say goodbye:
-
...or make up a list of favorite's say top 50 games.. surely 50 games will be a lot easier for people to handle..
Yeah, I think I'm going to set up the Favorites list as default from now on. It's about 100 games, which should be fine.
Now why is the younger generation gettin badmouthed here?
I wasn't badmouthing anyone here (except perhaps my roommate and her unhealthy obsession with frickin' Uo Poko) and I'm sorry you got that impression. Believe me, I know a few younger cats who do appreciate the classics, they're just rare.
... Maybe get a dry erase board and post up some high scores, most people like to try and one up each other.
"John got 38,550 in pacman? I can beat that....."
you get the idea
Malenko, my friend, that is a brilliant idea!! Appeal to the competitive aspect of the classics! That's so obvious because EVERYONE has played (and knows HOW to play) Pacman... but who plays it the BEST? It just so happens that I have a big white board that I didn't know what I was going to do with! Wow, I can't believe I didn't think of that. Great suggestion.
I'll let you know how it goes this afternoon... I'm about to gut her. Say goodbye:
Wow... seriously, I will observe a moment of silence. Best of luck! Let us know. :'(
-
So funny how we all attach feelings to objects. Especially ones from our childhood. I usually keep my cab on with a random game running just because its so &#^@%*&$ cool to finally have my own cab with ALL the games. Imaging telling your 12 year old self about that!
With almost everyone else who made a mame cab from scratch, the second build is usually superior to the first one. In your mind is your yet-to-be second cab has an amazing list of improvements then I say go for it.
-
it's natural we all get attached to objects, and not just from our child hood..
how many people love and talk to their cars?
i'd think it would be especially important something you made your self.
there is nothing abnormal here.
-
I do like the High scores whiteboard idea.
Is that the same idea behind the "Highscores" mod I've seen mentioned in threads from time to time?
It'd be cool if that ability was just part of the cab (or then again, maybe not, a little "analog" mixed with the digital wouldn't necessarily be bad :)
-
ya i agree the white board high scores idea is a good one, i remember having competitions with people in pinball in a pizza shop.. we was'nt at the place at the same time but we'd just pass the score on verbally, say beat that!
-
I do like the High scores whiteboard idea.
Is that the same idea behind the "Highscores" mod I've seen mentioned in threads from time to time?
It'd be cool if that ability was just part of the cab (or then again, maybe not, a little "analog" mixed with the digital wouldn't necessarily be bad :)
wait... you guys don't have MAME saving your high scores?
-
wait... you guys don't have MAME saving your high scores?
No, I don't... and while I realize I could take the time to learn how to "roll my own" MAME, I'm not going to bother with it. I like the (decidedly analog) white board idea. There's a certain "taunting" factor to it, that I know will definitely needle certain individuals in my social circle.
And I already have the white board. ;D
-
It is honestly really easy (might take you... I'd say... 2 hours to figure out from scratch).
Just get the MAME source code from here http://mamedev.org/oldrel.html (http://mamedev.org/oldrel.html).
Get the high score / no nag patch from here (be sure it matches the version of your source) http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=64298.0 (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=64298.0)
Get Headkaze's MAME compiler from here:
http://www.headsoft.com.au/index.php?category=mame&page=mc64 (http://www.headsoft.com.au/index.php?category=mame&page=mc64)
Just point the paths in the compiler to the right spots, apply the patch (don't bother with the compile options), and compile.
High score saves add a ton of playability to the cab. I have 2 friends who, when I have said Rock Band parties, are telling us to turn the music down so they can hear the cab. We get into brutal high score competitions. Vicious. We kind of get obsessive compulsive about who's initials are at the top. We really got going on Juno First after a high score competition on this board got us introduced to it.
In my opinion, this is a must have for a MAME cab. I might not have even bothered with building it if there wasn't a way to support this.
-
I vote for the dry erase board in the room, cool brag board and it makes people think of games they might not have remembered otherwise. We add the date when the score was set in my rec room, everyone likes getting a high score but others will absolutely eat up breaking the track & field long jump record or centipede high score that has stood for 17 months.
-
it's natural we all get attached to objects, and not just from our child hood..
I'm wondering how the young crowd can possibly be interested in arcade games? In the 80's as a kid or maybe young adult, you'd be at home watching boring shows on a blurry 27" TV with rabbit ears and a moderate amount of static on the screen. Maybe listening to Pat Benitar or Huey Lewis on your tape deck before the batteries die and you go out to play with your friends. Maybe all you have is a black and white TV and an Atari 2600 that you play on the old shag carpet in the room with the wood paneling. So if you need an entertainment fix you jump on your bike and ride over to the arcade and you're in heaven. A dark room lit mainly by a dozen or more arcade games with 100x more fidelity than what you have at home. The room full of life with the incredible mix of sound that can only come from an 80's arcade. Hey look in the corner, a new game! The perfect monitor, clear glass, new sideart, the smell of freshly painted wood are all before you. You drop a quarter into the shiny new coin mech and hear your quarter plunk down onto a thick layer of older quarters. You start playing this game with new gameplay elements that you've never seen in any other game before. The sound effects you're hearing the game generate are sounds that have never been heard before they sound so cool, so futuristic! ...
The whole experience of newness and electronic bliss is something that has tied a lot of us to this hobby. Nowadays that experience just does not exist anymore. Strip all that ambiance away from the game of Robotron and what do you have? To a kid it's a REALLY hard version of Geometry Wars with bad graphics.
I wonder how one of these kids who say they are into the old arcade games would describe them? "I saw this dusty old wooden cabinet plugged in at the back room of the indoor swap meet and it smelled kind of moldy and was made 7 years before I was born, and the game inside of it had the high scores burned into the screen it was so old, my game only lasted 2 minutes before I died but it was fun I guess." :lol
-
It is honestly really easy (might take you... I'd say... 2 hours to figure out from scratch)...
Wow, thanks for the concise info. I actually might do that now, but strangely enough I would do it more for the no-nag feature than for the hi-scores. ;D Again, thanks for the quick-and-dirty breakdown.
As it stands, my plans are now as follows:
1. Put up the white board. (Done!)
2. Re-configure Mala on QH: edit QH graphics, layout and gamelist(s) to reflect an even more straight-forward design.
3. (Maybe roll my own MAME.)
4. Continue designing (and building the budget for) the new cocktail cab ... because at this point, folks, I'm pretty sure I'm going to keep QH alive!
5. Better document the process than I did with QH, including starting a thread and posting Sketchup files, pics during build, etc.
... and hopefully get the actual physical build done before Tekken 6 comes out at the end of October, because I will get nothing done once that happens.
Ironic, no? :burgerking:
Anyway, thanks to all for your support and input! I think the white board really put my decision over the top... well, that and the thought of potentially networking the two cabs together... hehehe...
-
It is honestly really easy (might take you... I'd say... 2 hours to figure out from scratch)...
Tekken 6 comes out at the end of October, because I will get nothing done once that happens.
hmmmm, what is this "Tekken 6" you speak of? ;D
-
@Namco
Your description of a young gamer reacting to an arcade cab was great! :lol
If all I'd known growing up was Call of Duty, Gears or War, etc, any of the old games would look like :censored:
It may be that the first (or I guess second) gen arcade games won't have much of a life past this generation.
Or maybe not. It'll be interesting to see.
-
Ask everyone what their favorite games are and compile a gamelist. Maybe get a dry erase board and post up some high scores, most people like to try and one up each other.
"John got 38,550 in pacman? I can beat that....."
you get the idea
Hmm that gives me an idea for a great front end modification. A scrolling ticker with large letters somewhere on top of the game selection screen listing what the recent high scores are and for which games (along with a customizable taunt: "Are you skilled enough to beat these scores?"). It could poll the mame/hi directory and pull the most recently modified 5-10 files and list who got what (this part would be the most difficult). I think would make the cabinet more of a social draw at parties and get togethers, like the whiteboard idea except you don't have to manually update it.
-
Great idea ahofle, you figured out a way to taunt people with the high scores without having to be in a particular game to see them. Would love to see it as a funtion box you could drop into a mala layout.