Build Your Own Arcade Controls Forum
Main => Main Forum => Topic started by: ultrageek on June 15, 2009, 05:20:48 pm
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Hey.. I'm asking folks to name games (in MAME of course) that are so difficult that they are mostly unplayable.
This would be true for the "real" cabinets as well, not just MAME.
The reasoning behind this is that my friend and I played a game some time ago, that was so impossible to play it just killed us. We were laughing so hard it hurt.
But I can't remember what game it was.
It wasn't a fighter (Street Fighter) nor do I believe it was a vertical/horizontal shooter (shmups) . (only 90%) on this one though.
-Ultrageek
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some people (myself included) struggle with Crazy Climber. Zwackery is near impossible without the right controls.
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Defender and Stargate often get tagged with this. The first time you play Defender, you're lucky to get a 30 second game and 300 points.
One game that I found very difficult was Ajax. Its a cool game that has different perspectives (either top down or behind the player), but its punishing to play. One of those games that makes you start over when you screw up.
Another game that is tough because it fills the screen with bullets and enemies is called Mars Matrix:Hyper Solid Shooting. It's actually very fun even though its crazy.
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Ghosts 'n Goblins
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I find most old games (pre '84/85 ish) are generally pretty hard, and require a lot of patience.
I wouldn't know where to start in naming specific games though!
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For some reason, I remember it being a game along the lines of "Jumping Jack". One with that play style.
"My mind is going, Dave. I can feel it."
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Ghosts 'n Goblins
Hard. Yes. So hard it is unplayable. NO! This is actually one of the few games I got far in without spending too much money.
Regardless, it IS hard, but every second is worth playing.
(I'm not dismissing your claim tho, just giving my own account)
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Ghosts 'n Goblins
Hard. Yes. So hard it is unplayable. NO! This is actually one of the few games I got far in without spending too much money.
Regardless, it IS hard, but every second is worth playing.
(I'm not dismissing your claim tho, just giving my own account)
Well, I personally think there is no game too hard to be unplayable. There are fun and un-fun games. If the game is fun, it doesnt matter how hard it is.
Ghosts 'n Goblins - Arcade
Battletoads - NES
Ikaruga - Dreamcast
Those are all some of my favorite games, that are all brutally hard. But since they are all fun they drive me to play them more and progress.
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Hehe gotta agree on Defender and Ghosts n goblins. Nice grafx (for their time) and sounds but both were made to eat quarters after the initial stages. :cry:
mj147
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Dragon's Lair & Space Ace with their $.50 per credit and trial and error gameplay. F those games. Loved 'em as a kid, but F' em now, man. My pea brain can't play them anymore. :banghead: :cry:
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Haunted Castle.
It's actually a Castlevania game. The worst one.
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Haunted Castle.
It's actually a Castlevania game. The worst one.
Please give some links. I used to be a castlevania fan back in teh NES deys. Never heard of this one before (I could look it up, but for forum discussion I want you to post it :P ) Is it really castlevania? Or just so much like it you scream "Simon's Quest" everytime you have to put a new quarter in....?
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Haunted Castle.
It's actually a Castlevania game. The worst one.
I played this one to see what was up when I saw the board going for over 400 bucks on Ebay.
Definitely a frustratingly hard game. Good call.
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This far in, and nobody's mentioned Sinistar?
Round 1 isn't too bad..... :-\
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The ones that were unplayable were the ones that had the difficulty jacked in the settings. Damn greedy owners. I remember being completely spanked by mortal kombat when I first played it.
Also, Jailbreak.
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Ghosts 'n Goblins
Definitely not so hard that it's unplayable. Incredibly hard game? Yes. But I can get up to the 5th level consistently on 1 quarter. After that... well..... I've tried many times but there's no way I'm passing that next level on 1 quarter.
Ghosts and goblins would make for a great high score competition. One of the most important things in the game is that you have to tap forward while shooting. (the shots come out faster that way) Otherwise those ogres in level 2 will eat you for breakfast.
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I feel ashamed for not thinking of it in my first post. Super Street Fighter II Turbo
By default it's set to Very Hard. This game is the reason why someone would want to put F2 on their admin panel.
Even on Very Easy, I can't get past the 3rd level.
Those who tell you the game is easy are lying.
Those who aren't lying are actually remembering Street Fighter 2: Hyper Fighting incorrectly, which is 10x easier.
In comparison Street Fighter II: The World Warrior is 100x easier and the entiretly of the Street Fighter Alpha series is 1000x easier.
When I set it up on my MAME cabinet, I have it configured so that the coin mech GIVES YOU money for playing it in compensation.
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Oh wow... I was never really a big fan of the hyper fighting versions of street fighter so I never encountered that one. I'm pretty damn good in Super Street Fighter 2.... beat the game all the time. That Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo..... wow I'm having Zangief nightmares. Never in my whole life have I received quite so many spinning pile drivers. LOL
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Dragon's Lair & Space Ace with their $.50 per credit and trial and error gameplay. F those games. Loved 'em as a kid, but F' em now, man. My pea brain can't play them anymore. :banghead: :cry:
Yes I would rate Dragons Lair the hardest. I remember when it first came out, trying to play and all I could get after a few seconds of random movement was "game over".
I was able to play one on free play once at a game show where it was launched but even then just got nowhere with it!
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I don't think there is any commercially available game that is 'unplayable'. But i definitely agree with Defender and Ghosts and Goblins being in this thread...
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The ones that were unplayable were the ones that had the difficulty jacked in the settings. Damn greedy owners. I remember being completely spanked by mortal kombat when I first played it.
This unfortunately was common practice particularly in inner cities, and my local arcade used to set the prices higher if the machine was in a prime spot, even if they had several of the same machine elsewhere in the arcade. Used to price it up if it was in a bigger cabinet too (not even a showcase) and then ramp up the difficulty.
Our local arcade sucked anyway. A proper pit where kids were frequently mugged for pennies - that's where most of the money went in our arcade.
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Bagman.
Game, set, match.
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Same here with Ghost & Gob....I never can get past that red devil after the graveyard...( I suck)...
Last night I tried to play the Foundry hack for Donkey Kong....couldnt get past it...
MK2 Challenger is crazy... ( yeah i know, these are hacks)...but i love freaking friends out when they see Kintaro as the first opponent.
Nintendo games...Wizards and Warriors, Zanac comes to mind...
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I feel ashamed for not thinking of it in my first post. Super Street Fighter II Turbo
By default it's set to Very Hard. This game is the reason why someone would want to put F2 on their admin panel.
The default setting in Mame is brutal, I assume it must be Very Hard like you are saying. Im pretty good at Super Turbo (About 60% win rate online in HD Remix over 500 matches), but the computer just wails on me. I really should look into killing the difficulty setting on my machine.
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ghosts n goblins isnt so hard its unplayable, its so LONG AND HARD (thats what she said) that its unbeatable.
I think Smash TV and Gauntlet are the innovators of coin munching
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i would have to say,..."NARC"...now thats a game that is pretty (unfinishable),...difficult at times on some borads,..but if you have your pockets full of quarters,..i would say you can finish that grueling hard game in about -5 hours! :hissy:
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I feel ashamed for not thinking of it in my first post. Super Street Fighter II Turbo
By default it's set to Very Hard. This game is the reason why someone would want to put F2 on their admin panel.
Even on Very Easy, I can't get past the 3rd level.
Those who tell you the game is easy are lying.
Those who aren't lying are actually remembering Street Fighter 2: Hyper Fighting incorrectly, which is 10x easier.
In comparison Street Fighter II: The World Warrior is 100x easier and the entiretly of the Street Fighter Alpha series is 1000x easier.
When I set it up on my MAME cabinet, I have it configured so that the coin mech GIVES YOU money for playing it in compensation.
Try playing Super Street Fighter II X Grand Master Challenge instead. It's the Japanese version of the game and has the correct difficulty level. It's both easier and more difficult at the same time. The AI will make more mistakes and won't read your inputs, but it will also try little tricks and baits that the US AI never would.
Japanese version is also just a little bit slower.
Also, a little info about Haunted Castle:
http://castlevania.classicgaming.gamespy.com/Games/hc.html
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Anyone try "Super Zaxxon" that was a quarter killer if I ever saw one- even at default settings....
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This far in, and nobody's mentioned Sinistar?
Round 1 isn't too bad..... :-\
I agree. I think I got to level 3 once when I was a kid and couldn't believe it was actually happening.
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Rough Ranger
Playing this piece of crap is an excercise in torture due to bad programming, bad design, and horrible MIDI classical music.
It was obviously inspired by Rolling Thunder, which came out 2 years before this one, yet they missed the mark on everything, including worse graphics, animation, music, game design, player control, difficulty balance, collision detection (list goes on!)
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Dragon's Lair & Space Ace with their $.50 per credit and trial and error gameplay. F those games. Loved 'em as a kid, but F' em now, man. My pea brain can't play them anymore. :banghead: :cry:
Yes I would rate Dragons Lair the hardest. I remember when it first came out, trying to play and all I could get after a few seconds of random movement was "game over".
I was able to play one on free play once at a game show where it was launched but even then just got nowhere with it!
Hehe, I'd agree with Dragon's Lair, but I can still get thru Space Ace on one credit with a couple of warm-up runs, even on ACE difficulty. There is some memorization involved, but come on, Space Ace flashed every direction you're supposed to go! The answers are right there if you're fast enough. :)
Granted, I probably spent close to $100 and several years of my 'teens to get that far...
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Battletoads - NES?
Am I the only one that had no issues with this game at all? It was, and still is, one of my favorite games of all times. Even to this day I can beat the game on 1 or 2 lives.
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Dragon's Lair & Space Ace with their $.50 per credit and trial and error gameplay. F those games. Loved 'em as a kid, but F' em now, man. My pea brain can't play them anymore. :banghead: :cry:
---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, now they're free, I've been much more inclined. (Actually, just after Space Ace debuted, I was at a Golf Land during a time they were having a 'pay this much, games are on free play' deal, and I played it a few times. Unfortunately, I didn't know they were doing this, and I got there I think within the last hour of it. Eek.) But DL isn't that hard. Just have to remember what to do and have the right timing, which isn't too tight, mostly.
Sinistar, yeap. Bagman I don't know. It's ---smurfin--- slow and kinda boring.
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Not in the arcade... but there is a Really insanly hard game for Sega Genesis.
(and it Should have been in the arcades)
"Target Earth"
I remember spending like an hour or two trying to beat the 1st level. After I
realized certain tricks, and how the game worked... I was able to get deeper in
the game... but after using the cheat code to see how far that game goes... It
appears that its nearly impossible to beat without cheating.
Its also incredibly original and quite awesome. In some stages, your friends will
actually help you fight, and their bullets actually kill the enemies. I wont give away
the other kickers though. Ill just say that even with the invincibility cheat, you can
lose the game. :)
Watch the full game intro to get an idea of the kind of Epic Win this game exudes:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpUyZ9DnXFg[/youtube]
(sadly, this vids intro was cut short a few seconds. Kinda spoils the music / feeling)
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Oh Target Earth....
I just recently played it and couldn't figure out why I sucked so bad at it. Went online and found the codes and realized that I wasn't that good when I was young. I was just a good cheater.
That game was damn hard but really good. Had a great Robotech feel to it.
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Battletoads - NES?
Am I the only one that had no issues with this game at all? It was, and still is, one of my favorite games of all times. Even to this day I can beat the game on 1 or 2 lives.
No way. Fraps it.
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I don't think there is any commercially available game that is 'unplayable'. But i definitely agree with Defender and Ghosts and Goblins being in this thread...
I'm actually the one that showed this game to ultrageek. Rest assured we are not joking about how hard it was. I mean I literally died with 3 seconds. I had him try it and he died in 3 seconds at the same spot. It was hilarious. I remember it being some really crappy, early 80s platform type of game from one of those unknown companies. I would almost guarantee no one has played it. You started out on the bottom right if I recall, and something would kill you before you even figured out where to go.
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I remember there was a clone of Super Pang that had a Halloween theme that I didn't last more than 10 seconds in usually.
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I found one to add literally last night. I'm a massive fan of scrolling co-op fighters and last night thought I'd finally play Double Dragon II through. Yeah it's starts mild and is noticably harder than the first game, but play it further and it turns to hell!
The awful 'left attack/right attack' control system aside, it soon gets ridiculously hard but in a very cheap way, not progressive. The enemy moves become very random, the collision detection is iffy, simultaeous blows always go in favour of the enemy and some dudes just seem unhittable. There was one particularly cheap bit where the sliding block wall just nailed me from left to right without any chance to move. This game is so cheap 1 life literally lasted 2.5 seconds!
In short, it sucks balls. The control system is lame, the slowdown is worse than the first game, the difficulty is cheap and the levels are literally recycled from the first game, with slightly newer skins. Finally the reward for completing the game? A single-frame picture and 'the end' logo.
This game is an abomination to the great original. I dare you to try it....
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Ghosts n Goblins.. both the arcade one and the NES one. I had the NES one as a kid... I managed to beat the first 6 stages (with game genie giving me extra lives, of courses) only to be informed that I had to re-beat it and that it was much harder. I almost cried.
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I found one to add literally last night. I'm a massive fan of scrolling co-op fighters and last night thought I'd finally play Double Dragon II through. Yeah it's starts mild and is noticably harder than the first game, but play it further and it turns to hell!
The awful 'left attack/right attack' control system aside, it soon gets ridiculously hard but in a very cheap way, not progressive. The enemy moves become very random, the collision detection is iffy, simultaeous blows always go in favour of the enemy and some dudes just seem unhittable. There was one particularly cheap bit where the sliding block wall just nailed me from left to right without any chance to move. This game is so cheap 1 life literally lasted 2.5 seconds!
In short, it sucks balls. The control system is lame, the slowdown is worse than the first game, the difficulty is cheap and the levels are literally recycled from the first game, with slightly newer skins. Finally the reward for completing the game? A single-frame picture and 'the end' logo.
This game is an abomination to the great original. I dare you to try it....
Double Dragon III is even worse. The NES version of the game is truly the definition of crappy gaming.
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Oh Target Earth....That game was damn hard but really good. Had a great Robotech feel to it.
Try rip-off. Some of those ships are right from Macross.
I don't think Double Dragon is that hard, and they really updated the speed of movement, as well as the moves. The spinning round-house and stuff is cool. You really need a partner to play, though. And I don't remember it slowing down. I'll have to go back and look.
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Double Dragon for the Atari 2600 comes to mind. I doubt there is a single first-time player that's ever made it past the first pair of peon enemies that attack you. Yes, the game can be figured out (even then it is still extremely difficult), but for someone new to the game, it seems impossible.
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Double Dragon for the Atari 2600 comes to mind. I doubt there is a single first-time player that's ever made it past the first pair of peon enemies that attack you. Yes, the game can be figured out (even then it is still extremely difficult), but for someone new to the game, it seems impossible.
I forgot that ever existed. Sure the 2600 had some dodgy ports but Double Dragon was an abomination. The collision detection is so bad you can get hit by a car an inch away from you. That, and the graphics will make your eyes bleed.
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there are probably lots, but one that comes to mind is marble madness.. i never could play that game very well past the first board or two.. i liked the game but just could'nt get anywhere with it.
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there are probably lots, but one that comes to mind is marble madness.. i never could play that game very well past the first board or two.. i liked the game but just could'nt get anywhere with it.
Arcade (trackball) or NES version? If you sucked at the arcade version that much then I will have to * at you! The NES version was horrible, not just in controls.
* laugh at you so hard my eyes bleed piss and I poop myself!
Meh, maybe you played on a machine with a ---smurfy--- trackball, that would make a world of difference when it comes to MM.
EDIT: Or maybe you were young and playing it too much like arkanoid, thusly "over spinning" the ball, instead of focusing on precision in the moment?
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I always found Rolling Thunder very difficult but of course not unplayable...
And one of my favorite games Gun Smoke is also very hard, I always get tired by all the button clicking and then I miss... I think I have come to that Ninja without using continue..
Arcanoid is also very hard but this is probably due to, I never had the spinner...
The incorrect joystick. spinner, trackball and so on is often the reason why it's unplayable.
And Space Shuttle on Atari 2600...
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I forgot that ever existed. Sure the 2600 had some dodgy ports but Double Dragon was an abomination....That, and the graphics will make your eyes bleed.
That immediately comes to mind when mentioning the 2600 in so late an era. Christ almighty.
Marble Madness only has seven boards, by the way, and time can get short real easy, but everyone should be able to get to the third board even with a joystick. Without cheats I've gotten to the fifth board once or twice, I think. I have a trackball, but only one, so when playing with another person, or just for shits an giggles, I've used a stick and, like in 270 racing games, there's a technique. You cannot use it continously, but have to push and baby-tap.
some people (myself included) struggle with Crazy Climber. Zwackery is near impossible without the right controls.
Zwackery does really need the right controls. Crazy Climber is a little tricky, but I've made it to the third scraper several times.
Not in the arcade... but there is a Really insanly hard game for Sega Genesis.
(and it Should have been in the arcades)
"Target Earth"
I guess I'm just a hard-ass when it comes to this kind of thing, but all these invasion deals are just ridiculous. If you want it gone, then you drop a planet buster on it...or do something similar like in Greg Bear's novel THE FORGE OF GOD. If you want to take it over, then nano's the best way to go. Safe, and you just let it do all the work.
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Arkanoid (arcade w/spinner) wins this one for me. I am not sure if I can ever get better at it.
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I don't think there is an arcade game that holds a candle to Double Dragon for the Atari 2600 with regard to difficulty right off the bat. If anyone reading this has never tried it, get an emulator and fire it up. Better yet, have a friend try it and sit back and laugh as he gets mercilessly throttled by the first two guys; completely helpless to do anything about it. I had my nephew try it once and laughed myself to tears.
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I always found Rolling Thunder very difficult but of course not unplayable...
And one of my favorite games Gun Smoke is also very hard, I always get tired by all the button clicking and then I miss... I think I have come to that Ninja without using continue..
Arcanoid is also very hard but this is probably due to, I never had the spinner...
The incorrect joystick. spinner, trackball and so on is often the reason why it's unplayable.
And Space Shuttle on Atari 2600...
Meh. Rolling Thunder. I've spent a bit of time on it..... :blah:
My nemesis? Believe it or not, Pac-Man. I've been tainted by the Ms Pac w/ speed up hack. When I play on regular speed now it's like I'm stuck on stupid or something.
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My vote goes to Act-Fancer Cybernetick Hyper Weapon. I stumbled across it while looking for Data East platform games. When you kill an enemy, a powerup is released but it flies into the air and you have to jump to get it. Get hit, and you lose powerups. Over time, you lose powerups. Get to the first boss a few screens in without powerups and you're toast. Get killed, go back to the start. It's insane. Try it now, go on. I can wait 30 seconds.
I also agree with Double Dragon III. You can pump credits in and have multiple players, so you can make progress (so not really unplayable I suppose), but by the end your teammates are nothing more than bait. Add to that powerups that can only be acquired by adding more credits, and it's a money eating machine that rivals Gauntlet.
Rolling Thunder is one game I don't find too hard. Can't quite finish it on 1 credit, but I'm decent at it.
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I feel ashamed for not thinking of it in my first post. Super Street Fighter II Turbo
By default it's set to Very Hard. This game is the reason why someone would want to put F2 on their admin panel.
Even on Very Easy, I can't get past the 3rd level.
Those who tell you the game is easy are lying.
Those who aren't lying are actually remembering Street Fighter 2: Hyper Fighting incorrectly, which is 10x easier.
In comparison Street Fighter II: The World Warrior is 100x easier and the entiretly of the Street Fighter Alpha series is 1000x easier.
When I set it up on my MAME cabinet, I have it configured so that the coin mech GIVES YOU money for playing it in compensation.
Although I haven't played a ton of games in mame, I did play this one and I have to agree!! It's freaken hard and made me want to smash my cab:o
I say this as someone who is decent at street fighter and I consider myself a street fighter junkie.
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Pong man, that up and down motion gets me everytime.
I was playing mame arkanoid on an older computer and it was kicking ---my bottom---, was not real smooth. Moved to a newer cpu and the game play is smoother and am playing a little better. Rolling thunder continues to kick my electronic ass.
:P
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Pacman.
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Speaking of the 2600, I remember this E.T. game (or maybe it was Indiana Jones)? that was extremely hard.
Arcade wise it was always Defender for me...god how I sucked at that game.
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"Unplayable" is really a per person thing. I've always found Defender unplayable. But I rock at Marble Madness and Crazy Climber.
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Speaking of the 2600, I remember this E.T. game (or maybe it was Indiana Jones)? that was extremely hard.
Arcade wise it was always Defender for me...god how I sucked at that game.
Raiders of the Lost Ark on 2600 was pretty much unplayable without some sort of exteral descriptions of what was going on and what the items were.
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I have a problem with games that the Boss stages are unreal hard. You can with practice make it throuhg the normal part, then you get to the 10,000 shot ot kill boss who shoots 500 shots at a time. I understand its spose to be hard, i get that. But so many are just over the top.
Xmen: I can bea the whole game on a quarter, but magneto spanks me so hard. It took me a long time to deal with the statue/egypt type guys (3), but i finally got so i could handel that. Rest of bosses are not to bad, but Magneto, I cry BS!
somebody tell me how to beat him without pumping quarters...
and dont tell me to use powers, you only have so many and this is single player im talking, not group.
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Speaking of the 2600, I remember this E.T. game (or maybe it was Indiana Jones)? that was extremely hard.
E.T. was easy if you knew what you were supposed to do (collect candy, wait for mother ship to call, then go onto mother ship - repeat. Just avoid the kidnapper and push up if you fall). Indiana Jones for the 2600 looks impossible. Have you seen the angry video game nerds vid for that one?
http://screwattack.com/AVGN/2008/Indy (http://screwattack.com/AVGN/2008/Indy) he reviews a few others in this as well...
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Pacman.
I played Pac maybe ten times...if that....back then. Maybe the first time I saw it, I saw some teen dude get up to three keys. A few years ago, I got up to one or two galaxian ships. A couple weeks ago, I got my first key. I'm usually best on games if I haven't played them for a spell. Unless it's been too long, and then I have to remind myself of things to do.
Arkanoid is just breakout with bells and whistles. Not to hard, once you get the hang of it, although I think the tracking with a spinner is like any other geared optical game. There are gaps in the resolution, even with a TT spinner, cos it's just not the same precision.
I do hate those scrollers that are fairly easy the first and maybe second wave, and then just ramp up intensely. Good marketing tactic, though.
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I think I found the game referenced by the OP. Jump Coaster.
Try this: do NOT research the game in any way, fire it up, do NOT watch the attract mode, add credit, and start. Tell me you don't die in 3 seconds LOL.
"You have no chance to survive make your time!"
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Mortal Kombat II (Challenger Hack version). You start with the bosses, usually Kintaro as your first opponent. Ultra unfair, ultra hard. Try it and see for yourself.
The only cool thing about this version is that when you play with 2 players you can figure out Fatalities easier, since there is an unlimited Fatality time built into this version. :applaud:
~ DeLuSioNaL
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Also, I agree with the Arkanoid comment. I'm really good at this game and even with the unlimited man cheat it's extremely difficult to beat. I kept saying to myself, "How the heck can someone beat this game playing normally?"
~ D
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I think I found the game referenced by the OP. Jump Coaster.
Try this: do NOT research the game in any way, fire it up, do NOT watch the attract mode, add credit, and start. Tell me you don't die in 3 seconds LOL.
"You have no chance to survive make your time!"
LOL. Ok went in blind. Put in a quarter. In 2.5 seconds first man dead. HUH? Ok. Second man... dead in 5 seconds.. BUT - Huge breakthru. I figured out what person I was controlling!
Last man. Maybe 15 seconds and I learned that you can CENSORED. Still no clue what I am doing. Off to pump in a few more quarters and que the game up for friday night to see how fast my buddies die.
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LOL. Ok went in blind. Put in a quarter. In 2.5 seconds first man dead. HUH? Ok. Second man... dead in 5 seconds.. BUT - Huge breakthru. I figured out what person I was controlling!
:laugh2:
Exact same here.
Last man. Maybe 15 seconds and I learned that you can
SSHHHHHHHHH!!! That's the beauty of this -- not knowing that. You should edit it out of your post LOL.
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I think I found the game referenced by the OP. Jump Coaster.
Try this: do NOT research the game in any way, fire it up, do NOT watch the attract mode, add credit, and start. Tell me you don't die in 3 seconds LOL.
"You have no chance to survive make your time!"
Circus Charlie is like that, too. Was for me, anyway. I eventually got up to the third or fourth board, but the maneuverability an all is really not intuitive.
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Okay, I played Jump Coaster pretty much as requested. I had looked up the game at KLOV, but only quickly browsed the screenshot. I got past the first board on my first dude. I, however, didn't get very far on the second, because I wasn't really paying attention to the coasters, which you have to think all four directions, and jumping doesn't 'pull you off the grid'. This game is a bit like Mr. Do's Wild Ride, but not anywhere near as cool. But it may be okay enough to go in my 'mentionable' category.