The NEW Build Your Own Arcade Controls
Main => Main Forum => Topic started by: bbyte on February 24, 2009, 04:47:17 pm
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I just got a brand new pair of Happ Competition joysticks from Tornado Terry's. After I installed them and did some testing, I quickly found out that they suck :/. I'm not picky at all when it comes to joysticks/controllers, but these just blow! It's so hard to pull of certain moves, like fatalities in Mortal Kombat because the joystick is just way too sensitive. I'm having trouble just running straight in Metal Slug, my player starts crawling randomly, in Mortal Kombat II when I try to do Kitana's fan lift (back, back, back, high punch) I often jump back in the air. I've been reading about Happ competition joysticks for a few hours and I noticed that some people were having problems with the black actuator.
Any recommendations on what I should do with my sticks? It's seriously hard to properly play with them, the actuator just hits my switches so early it's practically impossible to have a good flow.
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See if your actuator floats or not. If it isn't floating, this could be a major issue. (One that RandyT over at GroovyGameGear has been correcting before shipping them out)
Also, is your stick mounted completely straight?
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Should have went with Supers. Comps are known for not being great for fighters.
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Uhm, not so sure about that. What do you mean with "floating"? My stick has been mounted like my stock MKII joystick, in a dedicated MKII cabinet, the cpanel has a slight angle to it, so I assume it's mounted with a slight angle.
@ FrizzleFried: everyone who I've talked to has recommended the Happ comps to me. The comps are also the closest match to my real MKII joysticks, the only difference (looks wise) is that the Happ comps have a rougher texture.
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What do you mean with "floating"?
The black actuator needs to have free movement. If you twist the stick and the actuator engages a switch, that's a bad thing (and unfortunately how they're shipping lately).
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Well, I just did a side by side comparison with the original MKII joystick and one of the Happ Competition joysticks. If I twist my original MKII stick, the actuator hardly moves. If I twist my Happ competition stick, it twists along with the joystick. What I mean is that it doesn't rest in the same place like my original stick does. I'm not sure if the actuator actually hits switches when it twists along, but shouldn't it just not twist at all?
Thanks for helping me out by the way, this is kind of a big bummer after having them shipped from the USA to Europe.
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Should have went with Supers. Comps are known for not being great for fighters.
That's funny, because in my experience it's been the opposite. Most Happ fans at the Shoryuken forums and myself generally dislike Supers, because the round articulator makes it difficult to hit corners. The general consensus is that IL's version of the Competition is the best "Western" stick for fighters. I own three of the IL version, and I've never had any problems with 'em.
The big difference between the Happ and IL versions is that the articulator in the IL version is made of high quality white plastic, while the Happ one is made of a cheaper black plastic. If the original poster's problem is that he keeps hitting diagonals by accident though, it sounds to me like he align his stick straight enough when he mounted it. I've never had a problem hitting diagonals with my comp sticks, and Metal Slug is always a big hit when I have guests over and they've never had that problem either.
If it really is the articulator that's at fault, then perhaps you should consider ordering the IL version from a place like Lizard Lick (Ponyboy has them too, last I checked). The IL Competition is my favorite joystick that I've ever used, so I really hope you don't lose faith in it from one bad experience. The Happ version has been giving the Competition line a bad name lately, but the original IL version is still a top-tier stick IMO.
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I was eventually going to mention the IL's at lizardlick before this thread was done.
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Took a look at those and they seem great too. I'd prefer fixing these first though, so I can get my game on. Would you say it's to do with the actuator? I'm not sure how you could mount a joystick the wrong way?
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Sounds like the actuator hole is too tight. A little sanding should fix the
issue.
Supers are horrible for fighters. Comps are the better choice hands down.
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Should have went with Supers. Comps are known for not being great for fighters.
This being the opposite of the commonly held thoughts on the matter, can you tell us where you heard this?
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Sounds like the actuator hole is too tight. A little sanding should fix the
issue.
Supers are horrible for fighters. Comps are the better choice hands down.
Are you sure I can just grind it a little? You mean the hole on the actuator itself, right? I want to make sure I don't mess it up.
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yes, the actuator, not the stick. RandyT gives some advice in this thread
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=83636.msg889558#msg889558
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i have always liked the happ comp sticks. my friend bought them for his 4 player panel...when they arrived, two had white actuators, and two had black..to be honest i thought the white ones felt a little better..but they both seem to play just fine. i had no problems with street fighter or MK..or metal slug. everything i have played on them worked great. i liked them better than my x-arcade sticks, which from what i have read are very similar to the happ supers. i very nearly bought some happ comp sticks for my new panel, but i decided to spend the extra money and get the u360s, and i couldnt be happier
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I'll be another to add that Comps are supposed to be great for fighters and in fact there primary focus. Making it easy to hit diagonals and things.
I got 2 of them from the very same dealer as the OP and I have no problems with any games, I can even play 4 way only games like pac-man with no problems.
I have also the last few days been playing analog only games like Sonic Adventure 2 and Elimental Gimmick Gear with little trouble. I think they are great and very durable sticks.
I investigated how they work in detail when I was building my CP since they were my first joysticks, the square actuator can/will move if you twist the joystick but if you push any direction at all it re-centers itself back to a perfect position. Though I find with normal play even doing full circle motions that you do no twist the joystick while using it, you would have to do that on purpose almost.
I think the OP just needs to get used to the new joysticks they have a shorter distance to activate a switch than the old worn out MK2 sticks, and most pro-fighters want it this way. I mean Sanwa JLF's have an even shorter engage & throw distance and those are incredibly popular as well.
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I had similar problems with Happ Comps, but found that there were many people on this forum couldn't understand the problem - However, those people usually liked to play competitive fighting games, where the problems are not really apparent.
Unfortunately, I found that I couldn't play many favourites like Ghosts n Goblins because of the stick "twanging" back and hitting the opposite direction. In GnG, Arthur would often uncontrollably spin around 180 degrees after a volley of spears into a baddie, which pretty much got him killed a lot.
I solved the sensitivity problem using a large metal washer on top of neoprene rings cut from neoprene pipe insulation. This all went underneath the joystick's spring to tighten it up slightly, and made it act more like a joystick with a rubber centreing grommet. For details, look at this thread:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=74087.0
Basically, I put the shims into the P1 joystick only, as most of the games affected were single-player games. With the shims, Arthur was very happily in control of himself and got to kills many ghosts, zombies & demons. I found no (or neglible) impact on playability of fighting games, so I call this a success.
The cab in question was done for a customer - he has been very happy with it since.
Cheers, Zeb.
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I'm a competitive fighting gamer and IL comps are easily the best joystick of the big black spring loaded variety for fighting games. The original Wico P360 joystick would be a close second.
When people talk about a competition joystick they mean the IL sticks, not the inferior Chinese clones that Happ now sells.
Zebidee, it sounds to me like your customer should just switch the sticks out for Japanese style joysticks. They have absolutely no twang when releasing the joystick. A Sanwa JLW with a long shaft would easily replace your existing sticks.
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Zebidee, it sounds to me like your customer should just switch the sticks out for Japanese style joysticks. They have absolutely no twang when releasing the joystick. A Sanwa JLW with a long shaft would easily replace your existing sticks.
Yeah Jack, I hear you. We're 100% happy with the feel and performance of the modified sticks now (phew!), but I wouldn't buy them again. I would only go for fighting style sticks again if a customer specifically requested them. In fact, one key reason why I chose happ comps that time was because they were available in the four colours that I wanted for the cab (it was a four-player cab, for the whole family!). I won't buy them again!
I'll be looking for Sanwa's next time! Other than that, I (and many of my customers) really like the old MCA joysticks with rubber centering grommets, that are very common in old Australian cabs. I don't think that they are made anymore though. They are a bit stodgy but very reliable and extremely hard-wearing.
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I'll be another to add that Comps are supposed to be great for fighters and in fact there primary focus. Making it easy to hit diagonals and things.
I got 2 of them from the very same dealer as the OP and I have no problems with any games, I can even play 4 way only games like pac-man with no problems.
I have also the last few days been playing analog only games like Sonic Adventure 2 and Elimental Gimmick Gear with little trouble. I think they are great and very durable sticks.
I investigated how they work in detail when I was building my CP since they were my first joysticks, the square actuator can/will move if you twist the joystick but if you push any direction at all it re-centers itself back to a perfect position. Though I find with normal play even doing full circle motions that you do no twist the joystick while using it, you would have to do that on purpose almost.
I think the OP just needs to get used to the new joysticks they have a shorter distance to activate a switch than the old worn out MK2 sticks, and most pro-fighters want it this way. I mean Sanwa JLF's have an even shorter engage & throw distance and those are incredibly popular as well.
Well, I like them having a larger engage + throw distance, that's how all MK dedicated cabs are over here. Would it help if I were to replace the actuator with an iL actuator? Or should I get 2 new iL comp sticks from http://www.lizardlickamusements.com/pages/joysticks.shtml?
Gonna play some more tonight and see if I can get used to it, but I doubt it. It's just so easy to accidentically hit a wrong switch because the actuator sits so close to them. Even the slightest move might lead to another direction.
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See if your actuator floats or not. If it isn't floating, this could be a major issue. (One that RandyT over at GroovyGameGear has been correcting before shipping them out)
I just wanted to mention here that I no longer modify the black actuators, and haven't for a few months now. Instead, we ship only the white actuator with the HAPP Competition sticks. This one is the original part that floats like it should. There is no performance difference with the sticks we ship and the IL variety. In fact, the HAPP variety actually feel a little better to me when compared directly with the IL versions I have here. YMMV.
RandyT
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Just how much friction should the actuator have? Mine will rotate if you turn the joystick but they will self center when you push them in any direction without much force. Also the joystcks dont seem to rotate very easy anyways, like said in my previous post I think I would have to try to rotate them on purpose to make the actuator rotate during gameplay.
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See if your actuator floats or not. If it isn't floating, this could be a major issue. (One that RandyT over at GroovyGameGear has been correcting before shipping them out)
I just wanted to mention here that I no longer modify the black actuators, and haven't for a few months now. Instead, we ship only the white actuator with the HAPP Competition sticks. This one is the original part that floats like it should. There is no performance difference with the sticks we ship and the IL variety. In fact, the HAPP variety actually feel a little better to me when compared directly with the IL versions I have here. YMMV.
RandyT
Oh, that's right. Sorry, I recall you mentioning that now. Thanks for the correction.
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Well, I did some more playing and things have been going way more smoothly now. I'm still having problems with some fatalities on MKII though. Is it possible that the spring in my Happ Competition stick is not as stiff as the one in my original sticks. If so, would I benefit from getting a stiffer spring?
Also, what are all the differences between the new Happ Competition sticks (made in China) and the iL competition sticks you can get from lizardlick? Is it possible to fit the white actuator from the iL sticks in the new Happ Competition ones?
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Is it possible to fit the white actuator from the iL sticks in the new Happ Competition ones?
[I just wanted to mention here that I no longer modify the black actuators, and haven't for a few months now. Instead, we ship only the white actuator with the HAPP Competition sticks. This one is the original part that floats like it should. There is no performance difference with the sticks we ship and the IL variety. In fact, the HAPP variety actually feel a little better to me when compared directly with the IL versions I have here. YMMV.
RandyT
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Alright, thanks :). Still wondering about the other differences though. What exactly makes an iL stick better than the new Happ ones?
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Same thread you've seen, but start from the beginning. RandyT's posts are helpful on this subject
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=83636.0;all
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Already read through that thread but I'm more interested in the impact it has games wise.
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I only own U360s (greatest sticks ever made), Happ Comps (corrected black actuator), Wico 8-way leafs ( :woot ), and Happ Universals (blech!), so I couldn't tell ya.
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remove the bottom part and turn it upside down to make it less sensitive.
part # 95-0197-00
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remove the bottom part and turn it upside down to make it less sensitive.
part # 95-0197-00
Not that simple, I tried that but it wasn't satisfactory. Getting another joystick is the best solution ;D
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Well it works pretty good on my 4 dedicated mortal kombat cabinets, have him try it and see if it works for him if not new sticks ar only like $ 12 shipped to your door so not a huge outlay of cash by any means.
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Well it works pretty good on my 4 dedicated mortal kombat cabinets, have him try it and see if it works for him if not new sticks ar only like $ 12 shipped to your door so not a huge outlay of cash by any means.
Yeah, suck it and see what works for you and your setup.
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remove the bottom part and turn it upside down to make it less sensitive.
part # 95-0197-00
Yeah, I wanted to try that but it doesn't fit like that. I have to grind the inside of the actuator a little if I want to put it on the other way around. Did you do that as well? I asked the seller of my sticks since someone on Youtube had a vid on assembling joysticks and he mentioned putting the actuator upside-down too, but the seller of my sticks told me that the stick in that vid was an old Wico, since the actuator on the new Happ comps only goes on one way.
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Thats a neat idea, though I do not think I want to make mine less sensitive than they are.
I did test the friction level of my 2 sticks, the P1 stick it rotates pretty easy, not much friction at all and it can not engage any of the switches from rotating. P2 side has a bit more friction, but it was still not enough to make anything engage when twisting the stick.
I guess I just got lucky and mine came like that, I would assume they get even more loose as time passes as well.
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Thats a neat idea, though I do not think I want to make mine less sensitive than they are.
I did test the friction level of my 2 sticks, the P1 stick it rotates pretty easy, not much friction at all and it can not engage any of the switches from rotating. P2 side has a bit more friction, but it was still not enough to make anything engage when twisting the stick.
I guess I just got lucky and mine came like that, I would assume they get even more loose as time passes as well.
They may, but it's hard to say. With a proper fit, those actuators should not even really turn. If you have a drill press, it's fairly simple to ream them, but it may be better to contact the seller and see if they can provide you with a couple that are not tight enough to grab.
RandyT
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how about some really patient sanding with a fine grit paper? as I do not have a drill press.
No matter how loose they are they will turn with the joystick, thats just physics, but I guess what your saying is it should be nearly 0 friction and you wont feel it when it hits something while turning so it has a very smooth movement.
I wonder just how much if any that will effect how they play.
Though thing is I remember having to push hard up on the shaft with the actuator against a spring tension to put the clip on. Im almost positive that the friction I feel is just the spring pushing the actuator down against the clip, not from the inside of the actuator gripping the shaft any.
Is there not spring tension on them or did I somehow manage to install mine in a strange way (though messing it up seems impossible)
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how about some really patient sanding with a fine grit paper? as I do not have a drill press.
Sure, if you can do it in a decently uniform manner. Maybe find something close to the diameter, like a marker or something and wrap the sandpaper around it.
No matter how loose they are they will turn with the joystick, thats just physics, but I guess what your saying is it should be nearly 0 friction and you wont feel it when it hits something while turning so it has a very smooth movement.
Heh. Yes, that's true. But they should stop turning the moment they meet any resistance whatsoever from the red actuators of the switches. The ones that float will stop turning just a hair off being square because they hit the red actuators. The ones that stick are actually capable of pushing the actuators down slightly and turning more, even though they don't actually actuate any of the switches.
I wonder just how much if any that will effect how they play.
Sadly, I believe enough to be noticeable. If the actuator is sitting at an angle to the switches when you move the stick, it's going to affect timing a bit. The edges of the actuator really should stay as close to parallel as possible with the switches. But it will probably depend on the games you play and whether you have a tendency to twist the stick while playing.
Though thing is I remember having to push hard up on the shaft with the actuator against a spring tension to put the clip on. Im almost positive that the friction I feel is just the spring pushing the actuator down against the clip, not from the inside of the actuator gripping the shaft any.
Is there not spring tension on them or did I somehow manage to install mine in a strange way (though messing it up seems impossible)
There should be no tension on the actuator from the E-clip. The E-clip should only be putting tension on the inner sleeve.
RandyT
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There should be no tension on the actuator from the E-clip. The E-clip should only be putting tension on the inner sleeve.
Ahh there you go I did not realize there was a inner part to it I thought it was solid, that explains why it rotates so easy as that spring tension is pretty tough.
Thanks for all the time & answers Randy
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Ahh there you go I did not realize there was a inner part to it I thought it was solid, that explains why it rotates so easy as that spring tension is pretty tough.
That inner part is where the washers go, actually shortening the spring length slightly, if you take my method that I was talking about from the earlier thread. The best part about using the neoprene tubing to cut 'washers" off is that you can make them however thick you want, and just put the metal washer on top to make sure that the spring doesn't destroy the neoprene.
By using this method I was able to eliminate the joystick's excess sensitivity and bounce-back in classic games, while retaining the joystick's responsiveness for fighting games.
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Well it works pretty good on my 4 dedicated mortal kombat cabinets, have him try it and see if it works for him if not new sticks ar only like $ 12 shipped to your door so not a huge outlay of cash by any means.
Yeah, suck it and see what works for you and your setup.
Sweet telling me to "suck it" that's real cool how does that help anyone. What a loser, check out his machines......... One look at them says who you should listen to anyways HA HA !
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I think he was telling me to suck up the bucks to test some more joysticks and see what works for me :P.
So, ctozzi, did you have to grind the inside of the actuator? You said you just placed it upside down and that it worked fine like that, but like I said before, if I place it the other way around, it doesn't fit, unless I grind the inside.
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Well it works pretty good on my 4 dedicated mortal kombat cabinets, have him try it and see if it works for him if not new sticks ar only like $ 12 shipped to your door so not a huge outlay of cash by any means.
Yeah, suck it and see what works for you and your setup.
Sweet telling me to "suck it" that's real cool how does that help anyone. What a loser, check out his machines......... One look at them says who you should listen to anyways HA HA !
Hey ctozzi, I just sent you a personal mail explaining that nothing offensive is intended by the phrase "suck it". In Australia, it means "try it out and see if it works", and nothing else. It isn't rude here. I was actually recommending that the person try out your method to see if it works.
Sorry to you, and sorry that these "cultural differences" mean that someone might get offended.
I actually think that my cabs are pretty damn good and I am very proud of them. So are many of the cabs built by enthusiasts here. I have restored, improved and sold a lot of cabs with PC-based multi-arcade game systems installed, packed full of features, and my many happy customers are proud to show them off to their friends as well.
If you want to check out just one of my machines properly, try googling "betelgeuse arcade classics"
Take care,
Zeb
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Sorry to bring this up again, but since nobody has answered this yet, I'll just ask it again: should I be fine grinding the inside of the actuator (just grind the small plastic ring on the inside away) or will it render my actuator useless? In order to put it upside down, thus making it less responsive, I'll have to grind the inside, hence my question.
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Sorry to you, and sorry that these "cultural differences" mean that someone might get offended.
Hehn, taint it thi truth.
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Wow so much advice for such a simple thing....
I like the Comps myself, BUT they are not as good as my dedicated MKII and MK3 sticks I have on the actual machines. Here is what I did to make them better. Got the stiffer springs from the Real Bob Roberts (about $1 USD each) and now they are 95% as close to the original sticks as can be.
Also to be fair, I really got use to these playing Street Fighter 2 in the arcade, so I'm use to them, but the stock MK ones are the best. I think they were Wico ones or something. There is a thread here (that I'm a part of I think) that has pics of them posted and someone ID'd them. Problem is we can't get them anymore, so Comps it was...
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What about the push buttons? Does anyone know where I can find the shorter concave push buttons that where on the dedicated MK cabinets, seems like the only ones I can find are the extra long happ comp concave push buttons, and they dont look right on the control panel, the springs in them pushes the button up to high, so on the control panel there sticking way up instead of low profile looking on the dedicated MKs.
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I like the Comps myself, BUT they are not as good as my dedicated MKII and MK3 sticks I have on the actual machines. Here is what I did to make them better. Got the stiffer springs from the Real Bob Roberts (about $1 USD each) and now they are 95% as close to the original sticks as can be.
A stiffer spring is what what you get with the washers inserted, but a new spring sure is simpler!
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I think I may like mine to be a big stiffer too for faster responce when "tapping" for dashing in games and stuff, but for all my other games for normal use its probably best the way it is right now.
I wonder how it works mechanically, I cant see how a sprint pushing up & down keeps a stick from moving left/right esp since its housed on shaft of the stick itself. Maybe if I look at the diagram I will see it.
I hear the cheapest method of increasing spring tension is to stretch out the spring some :P
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Wow so much advice for such a simple thing....
I like the Comps myself, BUT they are not as good as my dedicated MKII and MK3 sticks I have on the actual machines. Here is what I did to make them better. Got the stiffer springs from the Real Bob Roberts (about $1 USD each) and now they are 95% as close to the original sticks as can be.
Also to be fair, I really got use to these playing Street Fighter 2 in the arcade, so I'm use to them, but the stock MK ones are the best. I think they were Wico ones or something. There is a thread here (that I'm a part of I think) that has pics of them posted and someone ID'd them. Problem is we can't get them anymore, so Comps it was...
Okay, cool :). Are they the same as the heavy springs you can order from here: http://www.lizardlickamusements.com/pages/joysticks.shtml ? Shame they don't sell the original MK sticks anymore. I'm gonna try and grind the actuator tomorrow/day after tomorrow and put it upside down, gonna order a new one anyway so it won't hurt.
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I like the Comps myself, BUT they are not as good as my dedicated MKII and MK3 sticks I have on the actual machines. Here is what I did to make them better. Got the stiffer springs from the Real Bob Roberts (about $1 USD each) and now they are 95% as close to the original sticks as can be.
A stiffer spring is what what you get with the washers inserted, but a new spring sure is simpler!
I've done both and the spring feels different.
Also, I have no idea if the one on that site for $1.95 is the same, but BR calls his a "heavy" spring as well, so maybe?
EDIT: I meant, heavy, not stiffer, heh.
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Well, they are listed as "Happ Heavy Spring" on his website and on LizardLick they are listed as "Heavy Spring, Happ part # 95-1309-01" so I assume they are the same :)
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RandyT:
Do you sell the white actuator?
I just bought 4 comps brand new from Divemaster, and they all came with the black ones.
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Ordered 2 heavy springs and 2 white actuators from Lizard Lick. Hope it'll solve my probs :)
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It's been a couple weeks now and I've yet to receive my order from Lizard Lick. Should I wait some longer or just send them an email? I also didn't get a receipt or anything, just the paypal invoice.
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From the Lizard Lick web site:
Lizard Lick will be closed to new orders beginning at 5 pm EST on Friday, March 13th until the second week of April in an effort to catch up on existing orders. You will not be able to order parts during this time, but we invite you to come back and visit us in April, and thank you for your support!
Not sure when you ordered (shouldn't have been able to order on the 16th) but my guess is that you are at the end of the list and your order wont be sent out for another week.
I need a couple of things that only they have and I've been waiting for the store to open back up for weeks.
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You can see LL's current backlog here: http://www.lizardlick.com/order_update.shtml
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are not as good as my dedicated MKII and MK3 sticks
Yes is WICO Conical Joystick with improved actuator
http://www.kowal.itcom.pl/ArcadeParts_pliki/joyWCJIA.htm
and is true it is the best american style stick
I play on this on II or (IV) groove (for metal panel) but I use cherry KWJ microswitches (original is D44/D43 or Freeport. ILL) and work very very good. For me best microswitch joystick on world XD
New Comp from HAPP is fu...k crap. But origial from iL - Eurojoystick work OK.
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Well, it's been a month and still nothing..
kowal: those look a LOT like my originals. Are they still being sold anywhere?
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e-bay only, NOS i very rare
I buy from one guy in USA 25-30 pcs NOS. I still have 10 but ship from Poland is not cheap:/
(http://kowal.itcom.pl/foto/artNOS-03.jpg)