Build Your Own Arcade Controls Forum
Main => Main Forum => Topic started by: Franco B on April 25, 2008, 04:00:50 pm
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After being commissioned to make a couple of spinner tops for people I'm quite jealous of how they are/going to look and I'm tempted to buy a spinner for my cocktail.
I don't know a lot about spinners so any advice would be great.
I never used to play any spinner games in my youth (I'm young(ish) and from the UK) and so i didn't play many (read any) over here.
I do love Arkanoid though and any type of block breaking game. One of my favourite brick breaking games for the PC is .::Break Quest::. (http://www.break-quest.com/). Its awesome, it even has a Space Invaders inspired level! .If there are any block breaking enthusiasts out there I recommend you check it out!
What other games am I missing out on with out having a spinner. I always loved Ivan ''Ironman'' Stewart's Super Off Road Racer. Could such (and other) racing games be played with a spinner?
I always loved Skidmarks on the Amiga, it would be awesome if you could get that to work with a spinner/steering wheel but I don't know if that possible as Skidmarks was controlled with a joystick.
I would really like the spinner to be on my horizontal CP as I have more real estate there. Arkanoid is a vertical game but it would still be OK on a 'horizontal' monitor as that's how I'm used to playing it (with a joystick) Are spinner games generally vertical or horizontal? I suppose I could add a spinner to my horizontal CP and make a dedicated vertical CP if needs be.
So my questions are basically:
A) What games am I missing out on without a spinner?
B) Are they general Vertical/Horizontal or are they a general mix?
and
C) What are my spinner options?
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Tempest. And yes, Off Road works great with a spinner.
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Tempest!
You have to play that game with a spinner.
Other benefits; you can play most racing games using the spinner. GGG makes a great one, from what I've read, and they offer mini-steering wheel attachments for it too.
But most importantly:
Tempest!
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Buy one, or build one? I love my spinner hack. (Optical mouse rather than ball mouse)
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Yes, get the spinner! I thought it would be an every-once-in-a-while thing for my cab, but I find myself playing spinner games a lot. Tempest, Major Havoc, racing games, Arkanoid/block breakers, etc. Not to mention that it makes a great way to navigate through a game list. Usually my most favorite games these days are Super Sprint / Championship Sprint with the spinner. I like them as much as I used to with the steering wheel.
Get one! Mine is the TT2 from GGG and its great. Make sure to get the ESC weight or the token topper to make it spin longer.
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Cameltry, a game I had never seen until I saw a post about it here, is a blast! My wife even likes it!
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/v/Xko1rYT_sXU&hl[/youtube]
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Buy it, build it, whatever... just get it!
Tempest! ..should be reason enough!
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Is GGG ever going to have the TT2's in stock again? Every freaking time I check they are "Sold Out".
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A) What games am I missing out on without a spinner?
Arkanoid (and Doh), Super Breakout, Tempest (and Tubes), Major Havoc, Omega Race, Zektor, Tac/Scan, Cosmic Chasm, Aztarac, Star Trek. . . and a few others, and that's without getting into all the driving and racing games where it could be used.
I decided I didn't need a trackball on my full-sized, stand-up cabinet, but I had to have a spinner. Plus it helps that a spinner costs less, is easy to install, and doesn't take much space.
B) Are they general Vertical/Horizontal or are they a general mix?
umm. . . Looking at the games I listed, it seems like a pretty even mix. The real heavy hitters -- Arkanoid and Tempest -- are both vertical. The majority of driving games would be horizontal. :dunno
C) What are my spinner options?
GroovyGameGear TurboTwist2
Actually there are some others on the market. But. . . I can't think of why you'd get a different one; the TT2 works very well and installs as easily as a pushbutton. It's brilliant.
ADDENDUM: http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/wiki/Spinners
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Holy crap....Cameltry is amazing. I can't believe I had never tried it before. Sure glad I have a spinner. ;)
Cornchip.
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Holy crap....Cameltry is amazing. I can't believe I had never tried it before. Sure glad I have a spinner. ;)
Cornchip.
Yeah, I'd heard the name, but knew nothing of it. After seeing that video, I'm going to try it as soon as I get home!
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Kick, Blasteroids, Pole Position, Virtua Racer, Badlands, Road Blasters, Turbo, Two Tigers, APB, Warlords.
Definitely get a GGG TT2 and the steering wheel attachment.
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TEMPEST! :banghead:
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Kick, Blasteroids, Pole Position, Virtua Racer, Badlands, Road Blasters, Turbo, Two Tigers, APB, Warlords.
Definitely get a GGG TT2 and the steering wheel attachment.
I always thought Kick was a spinner game too, but in reality it wasn't. It was a single axis roller, so I consider it more of a trackball game (more arcade authentic in terms of how you operate it), and I find that it plays better with my trackball than my spinner.
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I know it's not a spinner game. Then again, neither are all the driving games mentioned. They all play perfectly well with one though.
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Yeah, but do you have a trackball? If so, try playing it with a trackball - I think the game is much more playable that way.
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Gyruss and Time Pilot
;)
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TRON. Disc of TRON and Star Trek are the reasons I put a spinner on my CP. I like other but those are my favs.
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Yeah, but do you have a trackball? If so, try playing it with a trackball - I think the game is much more playable that way.
Yes I've played it with both.
However the OP most likely does not have a trackball considering he's playing Arkanoid with a joystick, so it's worth mentioning as a game he could play with a spinner.
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Kick IS A SPINNER GAME.
It has a trackball shaped dial, but it only moves horizontally, so its officially
a horizontally mounted spinner.
Playing kick with a trackball will lead to inaccurate control results, because the
axis is spinning vertically at times, and not registering the horizontal. So, its
much better to use a hardware axis limited device, as intended by the games
designers.
I have to agree that a Spinner is most necessary for many great games listed already. Cosmic Chasm, Mad Planets, Tron & Discs of Tron, Star Trek, and Warlords, Tempest, all the Driving games like Turbo, Super Sprints, Off Road..etc. Spinners even work fine with 260 degree wheel games such as Outrun.
However, rather than recomending 1 spinner... I say get at least two. 2+ player
driving games and Warlords alone are worthy of it.
You can always mount them horizontally if you dont have the space. (on front
of control panel - like volume dials)
Dont forget to add sets of analog gas pedals too.
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Kick IS A SPINNER GAME.
It has a trackball shaped dial, but it only moves horizontally, so its officially
a horizontally mounted spinner.
Playing kick with a trackball will lead to inaccurate control results, because the
axis is spinning vertically at times, and not registering the horizontal. So, its
much better to use a hardware axis limited device, as intended by the games
designers.
I don't know what you're talking about when you say "inaccurate results". Sure, if you spin it vertically it won't do anything, but how is that relevant? You work the trackball just like you would work the original "roller" control. Yeah, a spinner can definitely be used, but it doesn't mimic the action of working the roller as well as a trackball does.
(http://www.mameworld.net/maws/img/cpanel/kick.png)
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So, Franco B ...
Bought one yet?
..for Tempest ;)
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My personal fav's for spinner games / paddle game etc..
Goindol
Arkanoid (s)
Gigas
Gigas 2
Peek-a-Boo *mature
Pop-N-Bounce
Ghox =- Which i wish would have sound!
Off The Wall
Warlords
Quester.. which rocks but Jap only.. in english
super breakout
Riddle of Pythagoras (Japan)
Avalanche
VS Block Breaker (Asia) - imperfect driver.. still playable
Free Kick
Gypsy Juggler
Wall Street
Block Block
Some notible mentions.. which don't utilize the spinner but good breakout type games etc..
Thunder and lightning
gunbarich
The Block Kuzushi.. weird on my other pc this ran better but driver is imperfect 2003
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Kick IS A SPINNER GAME.
It has a trackball shaped dial, but it only moves horizontally, so its officially
a horizontally mounted spinner.
Playing kick with a trackball will lead to inaccurate control results, because the
axis is spinning vertically at times, and not registering the horizontal. So, its
much better to use a hardware axis limited device, as intended by the games
designers.
I don't know what you're talking about when you say "inaccurate results". Sure, if you spin it vertically it won't do anything, but how is that relevant? You work the trackball just like you would work the original "roller" control. Yeah, a spinner can definitely be used, but it doesn't mimic the action of working the roller as well as a trackball does.
(http://www.mameworld.net/maws/img/cpanel/kick.png)
The issue is with accuracy. If you are trying to maintain a perfect smooth speed from left
to right.. but your hand moves a bit upwards during that roll, you will have lost moments
in time where that input should have sent left or right signals.
Instead of 10 left pulses left (in one second)... you might get 7 left pulses, and 5 up pulses that are meaningless. The issue is mechanical in nature. Those 2 lost pulses may be the reason why you couldnt reach the balloon in time.
The original didnt use a trackball. A "TRACKBALL" is a sphere that sits on 3 rollers and
can roll freely in any direction. The ORIGINAL used a ball that could only spin left to right.
It was pivoted - spinning on its SINGLE FIXED AXIS. It was a SPINNER.
A "SPINNER" is a device that spins on its SINGLE FIXED AXIS.
The only thing that makes Kicks control different is surface area. There is more surface area
for your hand to rest on than the typical spinner, and thus gives you a slightly different feel, and possibly more control via Friction "IF" that control is limited in single axis.
That extra control goes right out the window once there is vertical movement possible.
Also, see "Major Havok" Which also used a SPINNER. Another large wheel, SINGLE AXIS
spinner, mounted horizontally.
People who do not notice the slip in control accuracy are probably the kind of people that
dont really care for the game, or are not very serious. IE: Plays game for 2 min, gets stomped,
... then gives up cause they 'suck at games'... and moves onto the next.
(never ever progresses past a certain level in 15 yrs worth play)
Now, try playing Arkanoid with a Trackball -vs- Spinner. That game is even more sensitive
to missed pings. So much so, that each ball in play would probably last 50% less time in play
when using a trackball.
A very High res mouse can help to make up for poor controller feedback... but, it does not
change the fact that the control is flawed, and inferior to use of a spinner (which is
why the game installed a spinner in it)
What would be even more funny, would be to see you play a game of supersprint with a
trackball. I doubt you could make it thru the beginners track without
55 wall crashes.
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Nobody's mentioned Tron yet!? Technically, it's only a part of the game vs. a true full spinner game, but still a classic, even it only a partial. I can't tell you how many weekly allowances, as a kid, I lost on that darn game!!
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Tron was mentioned.
Xiaou2, I'm almost at a loss for words. I have no idea why you're mentioning other spinner/steering wheel games as they have no relevance regarding my argument about Kick. :banghead: Normal spinners require you to use a twisting motion, and the Kick "spinner" (since you insist on calling it that) is identical to the motion you'd use for the x axis of a trackball. If you prefer a spinner for playing kick, fine by me - it's certainly better than nothing. But I have much better control playing kick and am much more successful using a trackball. Maybe you just have more trouble controlling a trackball than I do - I find keeping y axis movement to a minimum not difficult at all.
After all, there's probably a reason the manufacturer didn't use a standard spinner!
For the record, I love the game, I do play it often, and I don't give up on playing it thinking I "suck at games".
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Seems that everyone suggests to get "one".
Do any games require 2? Or is it practical to get only one?
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Edible:
Certain games used more than one... such as Warlords. While that game actually used pot dials,
it will work just fine with spinners. Warlords can play up to 4 people at a time.
Similarly, SuperSprint is a 360 degree controlled racing game in which 3 people can
play at one time. There is also Super Off Road as well.
As well as any driving game which supports 2 or more players.
I know there are more native dual spinner games, but I dont recall them right away.
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I have no idea why you're mentioning other spinner/steering wheel games as they have no relevance regarding my argument about Kick.
* Yes they do. Supersprint uses a single axis spinner mounted horizontally. You could use
such a wheel to play kick just the same. In fact, you may even have more control with
that wheel than the original controller that way.
Talking to you is like banging your head against a wall!
* Your not reading / Listening / Thinking... thus, I have to repeat myself so that maybe it
will sink in. The wall is inside your head.
Normal spinners require you to use a twisting motion, and the Kick "spinner" (since you insist on calling it that)
* A) Its not a trackball. B) Its a spinner with an Odd balltop.
If I put a hot dog shape over the top of my car - does that make it a hot dog?! No. Its
still a car. An ugly looking car... but still a car. Samely, a spinner mounted horizontally
with a strange top to it - is still a spinner.
is identical to the motion you'd use for the x axis of a trackball.
* Its SIMILAR. NOT IDENTICAL to a trackball.
Is a 3 wheeler Identical to motorcycle? or a car? Or is it LIKE both?
To me, weather or not the motion feels the same means little when there is
loss of control. And its provable that there is in fact loss of control.
If you prefer a spinner for playing kick, fine by me - it's certainly better than nothing. But I have much better control playing kick and am much more successful using a trackball. Maybe you just have more trouble controlling a trackball than I do - I find keeping y axis movement to a minimum not difficult at all.
* The challenge in a game should come with the game itself. Not in adapting to faulty
controls on the fly.
Pacman has a 4 way joystick. While one can play it with a happs 8 way, most will
tell you that its wretched. That they will tend to have more mistakes and die sooner because
of that. While you can train yourself to be good with an 8 way, thats an added challenge that
should not be part of the game.. and was never designed to be like that.
If you choose to use a poor lossy controller for the game, thats your choice. It certainly does
not make it a good choice, nor an arcade accurate choice.
After all, there's probably a reason the manufacturer didn't use a standard spinner!
* and heres the part where you didnt read what I wrote. Re- "The wide ball gives extra
friction thus helping the player to gain extra control" However, as I said... when you factor
in y movement... that extra control is lost, to losses in the x direction... which is much more
critical.
For the record, I love the game, I do play it often, and I don't give up on playing it thinking I "suck at games".
* If you are better with a trackball, then maybe in fact your spinner is lower resolution,
and or has improper settings.
Certainly, you can easily see loss when operating a spinner game like Supersprint with a
trackball. If you are to tell me that you do better playing with a trackball on kick (a spinner game),
than you should also be able to play supersprint without any difficulty too. In fact, you should be
able to play supersprint better with a trackball than with a spinner... which is what your
logic suggests.
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Thanks for all the help guys, consider me convinced! ;D
Im going to get one of the GGG Mini Racer steering wheels too. Is there a particular one to go for out of the 5", 6" and 7"? I imagine it would be best to get the biggest wheel you can fit on your CP?
Whilst Im here I thought I would share some pics of the spinner tops I have made:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v325/Francoberasi/threesmall.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v325/Francoberasi/sideprofsmall.jpg)
Left to right: Stainless with o-rings and a grooved and polished top, stainless with a polished brass insert, the third one is still a WIP, at present its knurled with a grooved side recess but the top will look similar to the spinner on the left. (its upside down at the moment, you can see the 1/4" reamed hole)
The o-ring spinners have the grub screw hidden under the lower o-ring.
The possibilities are endless, I could happily spend all day making various variations :)
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Again, I was speechless until I realized that you obviously must have mounted a spinner horizontally and that's why you think they're more authentic Xiaou2. I'm not going to hijack this thread any longer by trying to explain how silly your arguments sound in the context of standard spinners.
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Again, I was speechless until I realized that you obviously must have mounted a spinner horizontally and that's why you think they're more authentic Xiaou2. I'm not going to hijack this thread any longer by trying to explain how silly your arguments sound in the context of standard spinners.
You guys need to get a room.
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Gyruss and Time Pilot
;)
I own a Gyruss and it has a joystick... not sure about Time Pilot..
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Gyruss and Time Pilot
;)
I own a Gyruss and it has a joystick... not sure about Time Pilot..
I was going to say something. . . I guess (and hope) he was joking about that, because both Gyruss and Time Pilot are definitely 8-way stick games. But they're both the sort of games you can look at and say, "hmm, maybe this should have been made for a spinner, it might have been good that way".
If Tempest 2000 can be good with a thumb pad, maybe Gyruss could be good with a spinner. :dunno
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Interesting that you mention Tempest 2000 just now, because I was about to point out Thorsten Kuphalt's amazing (and free) remake, Typhoon 2001, as an indispensable spinner game. It's nearly ruined me for classic Tempest.
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Holy crap....Cameltoe is amazing. I can't believe I had never tried it before. ;)
Cornchip.
I agree!
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Holy crap....Cameltoe is amazing. I can't believe I had never tried it before. ;)
Cornchip.
I agree!
I think something was lost in translation there :P
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Nobody's mentioned Tron yet!? Technically, it's only a part of the game vs. a true full spinner game, but still a classic, even it only a partial. I can't tell you how many weekly allowances, as a kid, I lost on that darn game!!
I almost mentioned Tron. . . But to play it properly you need a spinner and a trigger stick or a top-fire stick. (Or three hands.) So. . . I wasn't sure if that would be helpful. I'm not sure if I could play it well on my own cab, but I'll probably give it a try anyhow.
Vindicators is another game I'll have to try even though I know my CP isn't really adequate for it.
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Interesting that you mention Tempest 2000 just now, because I was about to point out Thorsten Kuphalt's amazing (and free) remake, Typhoon 2001, as an indispensable spinner game. It's nearly ruined me for classic Tempest.
DUDE!!!
I had never heard of Typhoon 2001. Just DLed it and tried it. . . I think my prayers have been answered!
:notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:
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Havok's a sick puppy. ;D
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Gyruss and Time Pilot
;)
I own a Gyruss and it has a joystick... not sure about Time Pilot..
I was going to say something. . . I guess (and hope) he was joking about that, because both Gyruss and Time Pilot are definitely 8-way stick games. But they're both the sort of games you can look at and say, "hmm, maybe this should have been made for a spinner, it might have been good that way".
If Tempest 2000 can be good with a thumb pad, maybe Gyruss could be good with a spinner. :dunno
Thing is, both Gyruss and Time Pilot should be played with a spinner. I think it would make the game much more playable.
I'm planning on building a spinner based cabinet and it'll have both Time Pilot and Gyruss on it.
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Question regarding Typhoon and Tempest 2k - those are 4:3 games only or can they be played on a vertical setup?
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Thing is, both Gyruss and Time Pilot should be played with a spinner. I think it would make the game much more playable.
I'm planning on building a spinner based cabinet and it'll have both Time Pilot and Gyruss on it.
Can you really make that work? Both of those games were programmed to accept 8-way stick input, I'm not sure whether MAME can translate spinner input into that kind of stick input in a useful way. I'm guessing it might require a pretty serious hack.
It's a neat idea, but I'm not optimistic about getting it to work in a satisfying way.
Question regarding Typhoon and Tempest 2k - those are 4:3 games only or can they be played on a vertical setup?
They are 4:3 horizontal games. T2K is an Atari Jaguar game of course, so it was designed strictly for a TV set.
Typhoon 2001 has some options to adjust the aspect ratio which "can prove useful if you play the game on an 16:9 TV or something like that", according to the website. I have some doubts about whether you can get it to actually rotate the display 90 degrees for a vertical monitor though. It's just not made for that.
I hadn't given it a thought myself, since I'm building a rotating-monitor cabinet anyhow. 8)
ADDENDUM: I just realized Typhoon 2001 also requires a joystick to move you up and down, only for the bonus stages. Which is no problem. . . It's just a little peculiarity that it inherited from T2K, where everything was done with the thumb pad.
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Thing is, both Gyruss and Time Pilot should be played with a spinner. I think it would make the game much more playable.
I'm planning on building a spinner based cabinet and it'll have both Time Pilot and Gyruss on it.
Can you really make that work? Both of those games were programmed to accept 8-way stick input, I'm not sure whether MAME can translate spinner input into that kind of stick input in a useful way. I'm guessing it might require a pretty serious hack.
It's a neat idea, but I'm not optimistic about getting it to work in a satisfying way.
Well then... be watching for my project announcement in the next couple weeks.
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Can you really make that work? Both of those games were programmed to accept 8-way stick input, I'm not sure whether MAME can translate spinner input into that kind of stick input in a useful way. I'm guessing it might require a pretty serious hack.
If memory serves, Dave Widel (www.widel.com) did a version of mame that converted gyruss (and some others) to spinner input.
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Well then... be watching for my project announcement in the next couple weeks.
Care to share here for those of us that don't monitor the project announcements?
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Care to share here for those of us that don't monitor the project announcements?
:dizzy: :laugh2: :dunno :laugh2: :dizzy: :laugh2: :dunno :laugh2: :dizzy: :laugh2: :dunno
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I meant the trick to playing Time Pilot with a spinner, not his project obviously. ::)
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I used to love Championship Sprint, Super Sprint and Iron Man's OffRoad in the Arcade. I remember spinning the wheel to turn corners and then quickly grabbing it to go straight again. The spinner works exactly the same way. All of these games mentioned here in this posting work fantastic with the spinner.
~ DeLuSioNaL
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Thing is, both Gyruss and Time Pilot should be played with a spinner. I think it would make the game much more playable.
I'm planning on building a spinner based cabinet and it'll have both Time Pilot and Gyruss on it.
I like the joystick control of Gyruss...kindof a unique feel to it, and it works well.
Out of curiosity, I too would be interested in how you might get it to work well with a spinner tho...
PS Xiaou/Shan: you are both right. Technically spinner is the closer control. But in practice using a trackball is nearer to operating the original controller. Use whatever you prefer.
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Since Gyruss and Time Pilot have hard coded turn speeds, I think they would be rather frustrating with a spinner.
Regardless of how fast you spin, they will keep turning/moving at the same rate... Every true spinner game I can think of translates spinner speed to character movement speed.
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If you are getting a TT2 and are installing 1 at each opposite vertical side of your cabe, make sure you get a long enough connector for one of them, the stock one is only 12". Or get two masters each with a pcb.