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Main => Main Forum => Topic started by: b3atmania on May 17, 2003, 06:56:09 am

Title: Gun solution for homebrew cabinets
Post by: b3atmania on May 17, 2003, 06:56:09 am
Is there a good gun solution for homebrew cabinets yet? Mind you, I don't consider the Act-Labs gun or even the Namco Guncon 2 a good solution.

Today's console lightguns (even Namco's Guncon 2!) don't work with widescreen TV, 100Hz TV, progressive scan display, plasma screen, projection screen and LCD screen. Also every time you fire a lightgun the screen does a white flash. It's very straining on the eyes.

Lightgun technology has not kept up with current display technology and the eye-strain is unbearable.

The Act-Labs thing is no better than the console offerings. All use the same out-dated technology. Buying one will certainly render it useless very soon. I wonder why no-one has been working on a better solution?

Title: Re:Gun solution for homebrew cabinets
Post by: anthony691 on May 17, 2003, 08:53:23 am
Quote from: b3atmania on May 17, 2003, 06:56:09 am
Is there a good gun solution for homebrew cabinets yet? Mind you, I don't consider the Act-Labs gun or even the Namco Guncon 2 a good solution.

Today's console lightguns (even Namco's Guncon 2!) don't work with widescreen TV, 100Hz TV, progressive scan display, plasma screen, projection screen and LCD screen. Also every time you fire a lightgun the screen does a white flash. It's very straining on the eyes.

Lightgun technology has not kept up with current display technology and the eye-strain is unbearable.

The Act-Labs thing is no better than the console offerings. All use the same out-dated technology. Buying one will certainly render it useless very soon. I wonder why no-one has been working on a better solution?



1st off, does your cab have an LCD or PLASMA? NO gun could possibly work with these with out modification (csensors around the screen ect.)

I agree that improvements could be made, but you need to pick your battles, this one isn't worth it! Even the DC lightguns make a white flash (or those games do). And these things might surprize you with thier functionality.

Just a thought...
Title: Re:Gun solution for homebrew cabinets
Post by: u_rebelscum on May 17, 2003, 10:05:00 am
Quote from: b3atmania on May 17, 2003, 06:56:09 am
Is there a good gun solution for homebrew cabinets yet?

....Lightgun technology has not kept up with current display technology and the eye-strain is unbearable....

... I wonder why no-one has been working on a better solution?

1) For homebrew cabinets? No.  Reason: $$$

2) At has kept up, but just not on the consumer price level.  Why $5000 is "consumer level" for a TV and $30 is expected for a equally advanced lightgun?  Add another zero, buddy.  Also, be aware that the number of CRT TVs still outnumber the number of LCD+plasma TVs combined.
But, yes, the eye strain is a big pain with the current consumer lightguns. :(

3) They have been working on it.  The "solutions" found so far have been found to be too hard to add in by the "average consumer", or too expensive, or both.  The other problem is the market is so small, they can't put too much money into researching it, unless it's a side effect of reasearch on some other high volumne product.  
If you can't wait for such a high end lightgun, buy an arcade lightgun (need to buy the cab & PCB, too).
Title: Re:Gun solution for homebrew cabinets
Post by: paigeoliver on May 17, 2003, 10:10:55 am
Even with a real arcade lightgun you will run into this problem. Most of them flash the screen too. =)
Title: Re:Gun solution for homebrew cabinets
Post by: Distortion on May 17, 2003, 01:43:07 pm
Quote from: anthony691 on May 17, 2003, 08:53:23 am
1st off, does your cab have an LCD or PLASMA? NO gun could possibly work with these with out modification (csensors around the screen ect.)

if there's someone with a plasma in their arcade machine, they need to get their priorities straight...possibly reconsider where that plasma should be...that is unless it's the Daewoo with no speakers.  that'd make a nice doorstop.
Title: Re:Gun solution for homebrew cabinets
Post by: HeadRusch on May 17, 2003, 09:08:22 pm
I have a better response to thie original question:

Whats the point?  Show me a lightgun game that lasts more than an hour to play through the entire way.

Title: Re:Gun solution for homebrew cabinets
Post by: anthony691 on May 17, 2003, 09:27:44 pm
Quote from: HeadRusch on May 17, 2003, 09:08:22 pm
I have a better response to thie original question:

Whats the point?  Show me a lightgun game that lasts more than an hour to play through the entire way.



I would say ~ 30-45 minutes is the time it takes to beat the average rail shooter. Space Gun takes forever! By the time you are done with 45 minutes of gameplay; it actually does sort of hurt.
Title: Re:Gun solution for homebrew cabinets
Post by: Lilwolf on May 17, 2003, 09:37:43 pm
I'm still hoping to find a good solution similar to some of the old snes guns (the bazooka one).  

It had something over the TV... and you had to calibrate it... but afterwards it didn't flash when you pressed the trigger!

This would be SWEET for many reasons

1) No flash!
2) Better chance at 2 player support (because of the flash)
3) Works on TV's -> VGA's -> LCDs -> Projectors (hopefully)
4) maybe even holding down the trigger support!!!! for T2 and such games!!!!

Anyway, I would LOVE a company to come out with one!  I would buy a 2 player setup in a second... (a second after I talk my wife into letting me buy it that is :)
Title: Re:Gun solution for homebrew cabinets
Post by: anthony691 on May 17, 2003, 09:50:38 pm
Quote from: Lilwolf on May 17, 2003, 09:37:43 pm
I'm still hoping to find a good solution similar to some of the old snes guns (the bazooka one).  

It had something over the TV... and you had to calibrate it... but afterwards it didn't flash when you pressed the trigger!

This would be SWEET for many reasons

1) No flash!
2) Better chance at 2 player support (because of the flash)
3) Works on TV's -> VGA's -> LCDs -> Projectors (hopefully)
4) maybe even holding down the trigger support!!!! for T2 and such games!!!!

Anyway, I would LOVE a company to come out with one!  I would buy a 2 player setup in a second... (a second after I talk my wife into letting me buy it that is :)


I have talked with Act-Labs about this... The shinning example of these; the one that came to my mind was the NES Powerglove (even though it sucked really bad; and it wasn't a lightgun) It accomplished real time tracking quite well! They said it seems it would be sloppy and there isn't a large enough market for it (there probably isn't). Act-Labs has taken some hits from not being able to move something (check thier clearance out; 2$ console lightguns!!!) maybe they should work on what they have...

besides... what would I do with my bezel?
Title: Re:Gun solution for homebrew cabinets
Post by: nighthawk2099 on May 17, 2003, 11:40:48 pm
I noticed that Act-Lab had the light gun for TV and supports 2 player action, anyone have experience with this ?
Title: Re:Gun solution for homebrew cabinets
Post by: anthony691 on May 18, 2003, 12:02:15 am
Quote from: nighthawk2099 on May 17, 2003, 11:40:48 pm
I noticed that Act-Lab had the light gun for TV and supports 2 player action, anyone have experience with this ?

My TV lightgun hasn't come yet. Regular MAME Dosn't support dual lightguns, but U_RebelScum has made a build to do it. There are problems when both people pull the trigger within the same 16th of a second (which happens more than you would think). There is a switch on the gun telling it that it is player 1 or player 2; that way it assigns different values to each key press. I don't get horribly technical with it... That is U_RebelScum's domain.
Title: Re:Gun solution for homebrew cabinets
Post by: 1UP on May 18, 2003, 03:52:44 pm
My hacked T2 guns will work with any mame gun game with joystick or mouse support, and with any screen in existence.  And, they work in 2-player with NO software hacks period.  With all the problems associated with lightguns, I doubt that I'll be switching any time soon, at least not until there is a plug-n-play PC monitor 2 player solution with no keyblocking issues.  Thanks Act-Labs...  :P
Title: Re:Gun solution for homebrew cabinets
Post by: anthony691 on May 18, 2003, 04:19:22 pm
Quote from: 1UP on May 18, 2003, 03:52:44 pm
My hacked T2 guns will work with any mame gun game with joystick or mouse support, and with any screen in existence.  And, they work in 2-player with NO software hacks period.  With all the problems associated with lightguns, I doubt that I'll be switching any time soon, at least not until there is a plug-n-play 2 player solution with no keyblocking issues.  Thanks Act-Labs...  :P

Sounds cool... How exactly did you interface them?
Title: Re:Gun solution for homebrew cabinets
Post by: 1UP on May 18, 2003, 04:31:07 pm
Quote from: anthony691 on May 18, 2003, 04:19:22 pm
Sounds cool... How exactly did you interface them?

The same way I interfaced my Star Wars yoke.  The details are HERE (http://www.1uparcade.com/project-swyoke.html)
Title: Re:Gun solution for homebrew cabinets
Post by: GearHead on May 19, 2003, 01:23:48 am
There are really are only 2 options for us.  A scanning light gun like the Act Labs and a fixed position gun that's essentially a mouse.  In addition to the flash each time you shoot you're limited to semi-automatic fire with the scanning guns.  Rapid fire comes with a seizure inducing strobe light show.

I'm working on hooking up my Operation Wolf gun.  1UP - I would love to see some more details and pics of how you setup your Terminator gun. How did you attach the pot(s) to the gun to get the up/down and left/right motion?

GearHead
Title: Re:Gun solution for homebrew cabinets
Post by: Lilwolf on May 19, 2003, 07:09:27 am
Oh... don't get so mind set.... there are tons of options...  People usually just do what comes to mind because of the examples they have seen.

I have a joystick (can't remember the name) that was almost perfect.  It used sonic.  and had a item on the monitor (L shape on the left corner).  It works great.... but.... it was a joystick, not a light gun.  So you rotate it, not point it....  Just one example.  

I think another solution would be having a light senser on the corners of the monitor... and shoot a laser from the gun at it.  Then sense the light.  With the right sensers... and a scattering laser, it should be doable.  

How about any industrial or teaching solutions?  Any light pens or pointable mice for presentations?  

Arcades also don't use light the same way anymore.  They are expensive... but that might be the quality (ie, if a company took the same technology, but scaled down the quality it might be very very playable and a HUGE price cut.).  Anyone know the insides on how they do it now?

But saying there are only two solutions is pretty short sited.  
Title: Re:Gun solution for homebrew cabinets
Post by: GearHead on May 19, 2003, 10:24:14 am
How about there are only 2 "readily or commercially available options at the moment" ?  Didn't mean to say that there weren't any other alternatives.

Light pens use similar technology as the Act Labs guns and the ones I've seen can only be used close to the monitor.  This joystick you mention sounds interesting.  Any additional information or pics available?

There are lots of possiblities - people keep talking about lasers but has anyone gotten something working yet?  If you have please let us know.  This site is in need of some "arcade gun" sites in the Controls section.

I've been looking at ultrasonic positioning using an E-Beam electronic whiteboard system but it'll have to wait until the school year ends.
Title: Re:Gun solution for homebrew cabinets
Post by: Rasher2k on May 19, 2003, 12:46:16 pm
(http://mobynuke.net/rasher2k/albums/album02/aak.sized.gif)Ultrasonic positioning you say? I've been thinking of something for a long time that sounds similar. Would something like this work?

You would need to place 3 sensor type things (the red markers) around the screen that would locate the guns position, and set the boundaries of the screen edges.

Then you would need a receiver type thing on the front end and back end of the gun (the yellow and green markers).

Upon firing the gun the sensors would triangulate the distance to the front and back of the gun, instantly calculate the line of sight and return a relative screen position for where you aimed. Easy.
  • Would work on any type of screen.
  • Calibration would be simple.
  • No flashing.
  • Any number of guns.
  • Fully automatic fire.
Quite simply put, everything you could ever want from a gun.

Now I don't exactly know how something like this would be built let alone how expensive (or accurate) it would be, but I'd sure like to build one if I could!
Title: Re:Gun solution for homebrew cabinets
Post by: 1UP on May 20, 2003, 03:13:11 pm
Quote from: GearHead on May 19, 2003, 01:23:48 am
I'm working on hooking up my Operation Wolf gun.  1UP - I would love to see some more details and pics of how you setup your Terminator gun. How did you attach the pot(s) to the gun to get the up/down and left/right motion?

GearHead


Well, my gun setup is still kind of temporary.  Here's a pic of the box I have the guns mounted on for now.  Eventually I will make 2 separate platforms that bolt to the CP, which hold the guns about a foot farther back from the screen...

(http://1uparcade.hypermart.net/images/posts/t2box.jpg)

Below you can see how the wires connect to the 2 start buttons on the platform.  Also note the holes in the bottom of the platform, which allow the rightmost set of joysticks on my CP to pass thru...

(http://1uparcade.hypermart.net/images/posts/t2boxinside.jpg)

Next pic shows the Dual Strike board mounted inside the gun itself, with a couple drops of hot-glue.  All soldered connections use hot-glue as strain relief.  (make sure your connections are good and all inputs work properly before coating with glue--it's really hard to remove without a big mess!!)

(http://1uparcade.hypermart.net/images/posts/t2guninside.jpg)

THis image shows how the ribbon cable comes out from the DS board to connect to one of the pots.  The pot connections are the same as in the DIAGRAM (http://www.1uparcade.com/project-swyoke.html) at my site, but you'll need to swap the red and black wire connections on the DS PCB for the Y-axis pot.  This is because the gun uses a flipped Y-orientation (up=up, down=down) opposite from the yoke's orientation (up=down, down=up).  Also, you can use either set of button connections (labeled as left grip thumb and trigger switches) for the trigger and rocket launcher buttons.

(http://1uparcade.hypermart.net/images/posts/t2poty.jpg)

Hope this helps.
Title: Re:Gun solution for homebrew cabinets
Post by: nighthawk2099 on May 20, 2003, 03:50:02 pm
Stupid question maybe, but, do these guns use a pot for up/down and another for left/right and then the trigger as button A and the button on side button B ?
Title: Re:Gun solution for homebrew cabinets
Post by: Aceldamor on May 20, 2003, 03:56:39 pm
Fantastic stuff 1up!!   Would this apply to any "T2ish" type of gun. I.E. the Operation wolf UZI, Steel Gunner Guns or any other mounted gun with the limited movement?
Title: Re:Gun solution for homebrew cabinets
Post by: anthony691 on May 20, 2003, 04:28:47 pm
But imagine playing a game like zero point with a positional gun. It wouldn't be too good. Now imagine playing T2 with a lightgun. It IS'NT too good! I'd imagine what works well for some might not for others; just depending on what games you play.
Title: Re:Gun solution for homebrew cabinets
Post by: 1UP on May 21, 2003, 01:21:14 pm
Quote from: nighthawk2099 on May 20, 2003, 03:50:02 pm
Stupid question maybe, but, do these guns use a pot for up/down and another for left/right and then the trigger as button A and the button on side button B ?

That's the idea.

Quote
Fantastic stuff 1up!!  Would this apply to any "T2ish" type of gun. I.E. the Operation wolf UZI, Steel Gunner Guns or any other mounted gun with the limited movement?

Should work for any pot-based positional gun.  THere are some fixed guns that are optical, so this wouldn't work there...
Title: Re:Gun solution for homebrew cabinets
Post by: Les on June 10, 2003, 04:21:25 pm
Quote from: 1UP on May 21, 2003, 01:21:14 pm
Quote from: nighthawk2099 on May 20, 2003, 03:50:02 pm
Stupid question maybe, but, do these guns use a pot for up/down and another for left/right and then the trigger as button A and the button on side button B ?

That's the idea.

Quote
Fantastic stuff 1up!!  Would this apply to any "T2ish" type of gun. I.E. the Operation wolf UZI, Steel Gunner Guns or any other mounted gun with the limited movement?

Should work for any pot-based positional gun.  THere are some fixed guns that are optical, so this wouldn't work there...

Is there a definitive list of analog guns availible.  In other words what arcade guns can you hack to the dual strikes.  Terminator 2 guns are a given.  Also Operation Wolf looks like it is analog and not optical (I have not seen this 100% with my own eyes).  But what are some others.

Also does anyone have a pinout of the Terminator 2 guns?
Title: Re:Gun solution for homebrew cabinets
Post by: Apollo on June 10, 2003, 04:42:18 pm
There is a very simple solution to the problem that seems to have been overlooked by many of you.
The development of this product has already been done.
All you need is a screen overlay that is infra red sensitive and totally see through. Your light gun fires an infra red beam and Bob's your uncle. The technology is already here ( roll up screens etc but a little expensive at present).
Title: Re:Gun solution for homebrew cabinets
Post by: NiN^_^NiN on June 10, 2003, 09:12:09 pm
You forget that the way lightguns work is they flood the screen white so they get a postion to see if anything was hit so u wont be able get past this unless there was a snes style gun.

And i think the snes style gun was more like a infared mouse u set where the middle postion is so when u move down a few cm it knows that it is at that fixed postion which makes it much more better but as far as i have tryed u cant get it to work on a PC as the way it interfaces is diff when u make a snes pad adapter :(
Title: Re:Gun solution for homebrew cabinets
Post by: u_rebelscum on June 10, 2003, 11:54:05 pm
Quote from: NiN^_^NiN on June 10, 2003, 09:12:09 pm
You forget that the way lightguns work is they flood the screen white ...

He's talking about a different ("new") way, not the old way.  

As he said, the new way is expensive.  With the way he described, there would be no need for a flash, sounds like it might be able to track real time, and sounds expensive ATM.

Did I forget to say it probably costs a lot of money?  Hopefully the prices will drop at some point, but I won't hold my breath; not enough market ATM.
Title: Re:Gun solution for homebrew cabinets
Post by: Mameham on June 11, 2003, 12:03:47 am
Speaking of ultrasonic gun thingies... I bought one and never got around to using it... if anyone wants it for what I bought it off ebay for ($12 plus shipping), first come, first serve!

zonemaster@arcadepinball.com

- Eric

See here - http://www.io.tudelft.nl/research/IDEATE/drivers/3dz.html
and here - http://www.gamesdomain.com/gdreview/zones/reviews/hardware/jan98/3dz.html
Title: Re:Gun solution for homebrew cabinets
Post by: 1UP on June 14, 2003, 11:34:19 pm
Quote
Also does anyone have a pinout of the Terminator 2 guns?

(http://1uparcade.hypermart.net/images/posts/t2gun_pinout.gif)
Title: Re:Gun solution for homebrew cabinets
Post by: Frostillicus on June 15, 2003, 04:57:21 pm
Quote from: Mameham on June 11, 2003, 12:03:47 am
Speaking of ultrasonic gun thingies... I bought one and never got around to using it... if anyone wants it for what I bought it off ebay for ($12 plus shipping), first come, first serve!

I had a zonemaster years ago, probably the same thing lilwolf was talking about.  It pretty much sucked - oh and they don't make drivers for it anymore - so it only works in 98/95.  Not XP, I checked.  

I say we go back to the cutting edge technology of ActionMax.  I can't believe more people didn't buy that thing :)