The NEW Build Your Own Arcade Controls
Main => Main Forum => Topic started by: RandyT on November 20, 2007, 01:51:45 pm
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I have to admit, with a relatively "cheap" 42" 1080p (1920 x 1080) LCD possibly being available, the thought of the LCD based cabinet is really starting to crawl under my skin. In previous years, the plasmas didn't go too quickly, so there may actually be a chance of picking one of these up for the advert price without camping out in front of the store.
The idea of dividing up a vertically oriented screen between background art integrating the marquee and game screen has been discussed in the past, but I'm not sure if anyone has actually tried it yet.
A 42" 1080p should allow for large (even VERY large in vertical) games to be played at even resolution multiples, avoiding the dreaded extra pixels. Horizontally, it should provide about the same picture size as a 4:3 27" CRT, but certain resolutions will require some minimal shrinking to "fit" properly. Based on my calculations, the vertically oriented games should be comparable in size to a vertically oriented 4:3 36" CRT, with similar restriction based on resolution. Both orientations will allow for some background art and marquee to match the game.
So the questions are: Has anyone tried this yet, and who (besides me ;D ) is fighting the temptation?
RandyT
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I gotta say, as cool as your last "marquee" turned out, I hope you aren't fighting the temptation too hard. ;D
I really sounds like a great idea. The only thing that may be awkward to integrate if you want semi-traditional cab looks would be the monitor and marquee being in the same plane.
I know I'm not fighting it though, not because I wouldn't want to do it, but because I literally don't have room for another partially functional project.
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One thing is that the speakers would not be located under the marquee anymore either .... might look odd is the speakers were above the marquee. I guess a compromise would be to mount the speakers on the side of the marquee image. Oh well, worth a shot. I thought your other attempt was pretty cool. Do you know of any stores which might have a great deal on such a display? If you do, I would recommend getting there early just to guarantee you have a shot at it. If not, we will most likely being having this talk next year this time..... good luck
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Sounds very interesting, but can you even do what you're suggesting anymore with MAME? With the removal of the so called 'clean stretch' from MAME, I didn't think it was possible to use multiples of the game resolution + black borders for the remainder without any 'stretching'.
I'd also like to see a visual pinball emulator made out of one of these.
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Sounds very interesting, but can you even do what you're suggesting anymore with MAME? With the removal of the so called 'clean stretch' from MAME, I didn't think it was possible to use multiples of the game resolution + black borders for the remainder without any 'stretching'.
This is what I was wondering myself. The artwork system was brought up the last time this was discussed, so one has to wonder whether specific artwork, in conjunction with pre-scaling will be able to get the job done. I'm not well-versed enough in how the artwork system works to know at this moment in time.
Anyone know more about this or have some resources to share on the subject?
RandyT
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This is what I was wondering myself. The artwork system was brought up the last time this was discussed, so one has to wonder whether specific artwork, in conjunction with pre-scaling will be able to get the job done. I'm not well-versed enough in how the artwork system works to know at this moment in time.
Anyone know more about this or have some resources to share on the subject?
Mr. Do from the MAME team would know better than anyone. I think he has an account on this forum or you could contact on the mameworld.info forums.
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Sounds very interesting, but can you even do what you're suggesting anymore with MAME? With the removal of the so called 'clean stretch' from MAME, I didn't think it was possible to use multiples of the game resolution + black borders for the remainder without any 'stretching'.
This is what I was wondering myself. The artwork system was brought up the last time this was discussed, so one has to wonder whether specific artwork, in conjunction with pre-scaling will be able to get the job done. I'm not well-versed enough in how the artwork system works to know at this moment in time.
Anyone know more about this or have some resources to share on the subject?
"wpcmame" from these boards would actually know. He created a 'clean stretch patch' for MAME's D3D mode which was rejected by mamedev for whatever reason. I'm not sure if he views the boards enough to see this though. I have still been meaning to get around to trying out his patch. See this thread:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=56050.0
and:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=70539.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=67622.0
I personally hope that someday MAMEDEV will incorporate something similar to this patch in the official build.
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Here is a previous discussion we had on the topic:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=70626.0
Mr. Do replied in there. I'm still thinking Tempest is the best cabinet choice for this, or something with a sleek sloped back shape like that.
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well.. if you slant the monitor back.. Like in a pacman.. then the "marquee" area of the monitor is going to be in a weird spot.. I would say you should mount the monitor straight up and down. you could place the speakers directly under the monitor.
(http://www.klov.com/images/11/1181242065301.jpg)
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I would like to see a serious Pinmame attempt with the type of display as discussed.
Using such a big screen with mame would ruin the experience IMHO.
I always thought arcade cabs were personal one on one.
With a 42" you would lose that unless it was a virtual fighter game type scenario.
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Using such a big screen with mame would ruin the experience IMHO.
I always thought arcade cabs were personal one on one.
With a 42" you would lose that unless it was a virtual fighter game type scenario.
maybe if you use enough screen real estate for artwork it might reduce the play area down to something more standard.. ??? Pinmame would be sweet though! :)
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I'm still thinking Tempest is the best cabinet choice for this, or something with a sleek sloped back shape like that.
Tempest-style cab - precisely what I was thinking.
Hard to imagine anybody actually building one until the software portion is worked out, or at least proved feasible.
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Here is a previous discussion we had on the topic:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=70626.0
Mr. Do replied in there.
Thanks for posting that. I lost the discussion before and it looks like it should be doable based on what was stated. Looks like I need to figure out what goes on in the .lay files.
I'm still thinking Tempest is the best cabinet choice for this, or something with a sleek sloped back shape like that.
I'm in agreement there. Not many other options with this type of situation. What I would love to do is make a "showcase" style cab in which the monitor could tilt to almost horizontal for PinMAME. But I'm going to have to get past the thought of using it for a PC monitor first. 1920x1080 is actually a respectable computer resolution....maybe it should rotate as well and have a swappable "keyboard / mouse" panel ;D
But I'll have to get one first. The only one I have seen that looks like it will fit the bill is the $798 Polaroid (hmmm...) 42" at Walmart. Hard to spend that kind of dough without designing the cabinet for a LOT of different things.
RandyT
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(http://www.pinballnews.com/news/virtual.jpg)
Nuff said.
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Also, would the display work properly if you use your cabinet for emulators other than Mame?
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The stretch issue would be easily solved by using an older rev of MAME, yes?
This one sort of screams for moving away from common cab design altogether... instinct is telling me it would be a great candidate for something mirror based somehow, but that could end up being totally awkward with a large monitor.
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The stretch issue would be easily solved by using an older rev of MAME, yes?
Yes, but then you lose the new artwork capabilities.
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(http://www.pinballnews.com/news/virtual.jpg)
Nuff said.
That is hot!!
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Yes, but then you lose the new artwork capabilities.
You would, yes, but I'm not big on dropping that cash on a monitor only to use valuable screen space on static images... Sure, it's a dynamic static image, but it's an awfully expensive way to achieve that.
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But I'll have to get one first. The only one I have seen that looks like it will fit the bill is the $798 Polaroid (hmmm...) 42" at Walmart. Hard to spend that kind of dough without designing the cabinet for a LOT of different things.
There's a 42" Sharp at Circuit City for the same price, but I don't know how it compares - http://bfads.net/
Also Hyundai 46" for $999 at newegg http://bfads.net/NewEgg - might be worth the extra $100 to be able to sleep in on Friday.
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There's a 42" Sharp at Circuit City for the same price, but I don't know how it compares - http://bfads.net/
Also Hyundai 46" for $999 at newegg http://bfads.net/NewEgg - might be worth the extra $100 to be able to sleep in on Friday.
I looked at the Circuit City deal already. It's a 720p, which has about half the resolution. Not a good solution. The Newegg deal looks like pretty decent deal, but shipping would probably add quite a bit to the price.
People tend to pass up the big TV sales at Walmart, so they might be pretty easy to get. The plasmas from previous BF sales were there for weeks (at the same prices) afterwards. This one may be different, but I'll be surprised if it is.
RandyT
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I'll be surprised if that happens again... this year the plasmas are much cheaper and bigger than ever before in the normal consumer price range. People will be able to afford them now.
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I'll be surprised if that happens again... this year the plasmas are much cheaper and bigger than ever before in the normal consumer price range. People will be able to afford them now.
Not really. 42" plasmas were under $1000 in the last two BF sales at Walmart and they didn't sell well. FWIW, I've been doing some pretty intensive price / feature shopping and have been seeing prices that aren't so different. One of the reasons is that the older technology models are being phased out and replaced by new technology, which has a higher market value even if it costs no more to produce. Because there is a quality improvement, the price has virtually stalled in many cases. In others, it's gone up to prices that were more common 3 years ago.
And then there's the whole thing about high-priced TV's usually not being that kind of impulse purchase. Blowing $800+ on something you haven't seen is a little risky for your average Walmart shopper. The excellent return policy of the store tempers this concern a little, but still...
RandyT
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The difference now is that it's not "under $1000"... it's in the $800 range. 20% is a large difference, especially since now, they're probably not going to get any less expensive. Mid+ tier TVs never go below $800 or so... going back decades. I think enough people realize this that these TVs are going to go far hotter at $800 than they did at $1000. Most people aren't going to have your knowledge on the subject and are just going to see "42" and "plasma" and think "hot damn, now I can have that $1500 TV I couldn't afford two years ago".
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Maybe a year ago, I finally broke down and decided I was tired of
squinting at my PC monitor. I grabbed a Sceptre 37" LCD Hdtv
from Costco. I believe it was nearly $1500 shipped. Its lower than
that now.
The camera cant do the picture justice. Its almost indistinguishable from
my High quality flat faced 17" PC monitor. Except is can fit 2 web pages
side by side on it :)
One thing to note... I would not recommend anything less than 1080p.
1080p is great, as the pixel are so small, that you can barely make them
out. If you have a dead pixel, you'd be hard pressed to see it.
Also, mine is supposed to be 8ms. This is the minimum I could deal with
also. As even now, during fast play, there can be a slight blur seen.
Usually its only seen when large amount of drawing are done all at once.
Also, make sure you use the highest quality signal. At first I tried the
svga, as well as DVI. The picture sucked. Poor details, and bad colors.
Then I got the DVI to HDMI cable hooked up, and the picture was simply
jaw dropping. I also had to get a newer video card to drive the higher
resolution of 1920*1080. Using other resolutions is not a good Idea with
LCD's.. as the scaling usually is very poor. Always use the native res.
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The difference now is that it's not "under $1000"... it's in the $800 range. 20% is a large difference, especially since now, they're probably not going to get any less expensive. Mid+ tier TVs never go below $800 or so... going back decades. I think enough people realize this that these TVs are going to go far hotter at $800 than they did at $1000. Most people aren't going to have your knowledge on the subject and are just going to see "42" and "plasma" and think "hot damn, now I can have that $1500 TV I couldn't afford two years ago".
So, I take it you'll be buying one? :)
$800 still isn't an "impulse buy", unless you are pretty well off. The people waiting in line overnight for deals usually don't fit that description, and it's too big to re-sell on eBay easily, so the profiteers tend not to gravitate to these items.
The fact that it's not a "plasma" rather an LCD may help them to move more quickly, though. I've decided to try to get one without waiting in a long line for hours. If I do, you'll be the first to know ;)
RandyT
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Yes, Randy, in the Black Friday thread in EE, much of the discussion has been from me shopping for exactly the 37-42" flatscreens in the $800 range. :cheers:
I may well do what you're doing, though... just wait for a quick web sale and get it that way later on. The wife really wants to wait until the Super Bowl TV sales to get one. I'm inclined to let her win this time so I don't burn myself on the next good deal on a cab/pin I want. :laugh2:
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Btw - Id stay away from Plasmas. Ive heard that they are prone to leak
their gasses.. and eventually get nasty picture, and then die completely.
LCDs will outlast them. The only thing that seems to fail on LCDs are the
backlights. However, Ive seen people replace them. Plasmas can not
be fixed as far as I know... and if they could, Im sure it would be an
obscene cost.
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For every instance of that info out there you can find an instance that says the exact opposite. There really isn't any way for the average consumer to know which will last longer or why.
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The word does seem to be "out" on plasmas. They have a faster response times, but the average "Joe" is looking at stretching the dollar. And a 5 year lifespan for something that costs $1000+ isn't going to cut it. I must have had 5 people, a few who were total strangers, warn me not to get a plasma. Of course I already knew all of the concerns, but it is interesting just how bad a rap the technology has received in the eyes of consumers.
That being said, Chad, I read the thread and you seem to be agonizing quite a bit about the expenditure, even at the price point discussed. Even to the point that you are willing to wait for the "next go around" if necessary. This is precisely my point about these sales. Your concerns are not uncommon with an item like this.
But like I said, I'm going to attempt getting one on Friday, without waiting in the long line and see how I fare. If I strike out, I'll probably take a drive to a more rural Walmart in my area and see what happened there. If nothing else, it will be an interesting experiment :)
RandyT
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Of course, that same guy who says "plasmas will all be dead in 5 years" also says "if you don't buy an HDTV now you're effed - all signals will be digital in 2008" and "you absolutely have to wait for 1080p - nothing else will be compatible in two years". Most of these people are working off rumors from other people who also don't understand the technology.
As for waiting... I'd rather buy now. I've been waiting for this price range all along. It's not the price I'm willing to delay for, it's the leverage with my wife. :laugh2:
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Ive already seen a dead plasma in the Free adds on Craigslists.
Im sure with digging, one can find many many more.
As for LCDs, the technology has a much longer track record. You can
see LCDs from old laptops still operational after more than like 10yrs
time. Again, its the backlight that fails.. which is something that can
be fixed.
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Ive already seen a dead plasma in the Free adds on Craigslists.
That's just one and it could be dead from anything... and for every dead plasma, you can find 5 dead LCDs. Mostly because there are just that many more LCDs, but that sort of thing is exactly why such a statement doesn't prove anything.
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Of course, that same guy who says "plasmas will all be dead in 5 years" also says "if you don't buy an HDTV now you're effed - all signals will be digital in 2008" and "you absolutely have to wait for 1080p - nothing else will be compatible in two years". Most of these people are working off rumors from other people who also don't understand the technology.
There's no doubt that public misconception over these things is mostly the cause, but what is fascinating is how rampant it is! But there is truth behind some of those rumors. If you don't get your TV from a satellite dish or cable, you will indeed be "effed" in 2009 without an add-on digital tuner. Some plasmas do not last as long as others, just as some CRT's do not last as long as others. 1080p may indeed become the standard in few years, after some technological leaps in bandwidth technology, but it's unlikely that a set bought today will last long enough for compatibility to be an issue. If it does, you may or may not have an issue down the road. It's just not likely.
In all honestly, I don't like the look of most plasmas, even though it may be a better "fit" for an arcade machine. The "screen door" effect that one sees when up close is something I personally can't seem to get past. LCD's are not all created equal either, and there are very few that I think I would enjoy watching a movie on. But as a computer display, they don't really need to be at the "Bravia" level.
My primary TV is a 55" 3 tube HD Mitsubishi. It doesn't have native pixels to worry about :)
RandyT
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I just don't see the gov't going ahead and saying "okay, now everything is digital - all you old ladies, poor people, and people in the hills can throw your TV sets away now". It would be political suicide... and the first candidate who says "subsidized digital tuner boxes" is going to get a 100% election win. Those tuner boxes will be inexpensive and easy to get/setup - they'll have to be. You simply can't separate people from their TVs and expect there to be less than chaos.
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MAKE made one looks really slick. http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2007/08/flatscreen_pinball.html?CMP=OTC-0D6B48984890
(http://www.makezine.com/blog/559562462_4d5c969d7c-1.jpg)
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I just don't see the gov't going ahead and saying "okay, now everything is digital - all you old ladies, poor people, and people in the hills can throw your TV sets away now". It would be political suicide... and the first candidate who says "subsidized digital tuner boxes" is going to get a 100% election win. Those tuner boxes will be inexpensive and easy to get/setup - they'll have to be. You simply can't separate people from their TVs and expect there to be less than chaos.
this is happening in the uk at the moment, i think the over 60's get free boxes from the bbc, in two years i think it is, the uk will switch over to digital completely, digiboxes are as cheap as £20 though so its no big deal, its only radios that will have to be replaced, tvs you just get the digibox receiver
regarding plasma screens, they're used a lot in presentations/conferences, and moved about lots, i think that the fact no one is switching to lcd in that industry proves the plasma screens ability to perform well and last.
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"regarding plasma screens, they're used a lot in presentations/conferences, and moved
about lots, i think that the fact no one is switching to lcd in that industry proves the
plasma screens ability to perform well and last."
Or maybe they just got really good deals on them that they couldnt refuse?
One thing to note about Plasmas, is that they are able to get screen burn-in.
This is especially bad for the PC displayer or Gamer.. or heck, even for cable tv - as they have
those stupid channel markers that always stay in one spot.
LCD does not get screen burn.
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"regarding plasma screens, they're used a lot in presentations/conferences, and moved
about lots, i think that the fact no one is switching to lcd in that industry proves the
plasma screens ability to perform well and last."
Or maybe they just got really good deals on them that they couldnt refuse?
money isnt really an option in my industry, i would say for definite theyre not chosen for their cheapness.
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Also, make sure you use the highest quality signal. At first I tried the
svga, as well as DVI. The picture sucked. Poor details, and bad colors.
Then I got the DVI to HDMI cable hooked up, and the picture was simply
jaw dropping. I also had to get a newer video card to drive the higher
resolution of 1920*1080. Using other resolutions is not a good Idea with
LCD's.. as the scaling usually is very poor. Always use the native res.
If the picture sucked with dvi then there is something wrong with your monitor. DVI should be just as good as HDMI.
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money isnt really an option in my industry, i would say for definite theyre not chosen for their cheapness.
Not for initial purchase, but if you drop tens of thousands on displays and then have to do it again a couple years later, the budget reviewers are going to have your ass.
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that was kinda my point that plasmas continue to be used regardless of cost , but because they last and perform
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money isnt really an option in my industry, i would say for definite theyre not chosen for their cheapness.
Not for initial purchase, but if you drop tens of thousands on displays and then have to do it again a couple years later, the budget reviewers are going to have your ass.
Also working in the entertainment industry, I can vouch for polaris on this one. Trade shows and rock and roll pretty much don't care about up front cost. On the other hand they don't tend to worry too much about longevity either, usually the technology gets better before the device gets too old and they simply move on to the latest thing.
Many things cost more in the entertainment industry simply because they know you're using it in the entertainment industry. Even with that being the case, the people in charge of the money tend to live with it and move on. There simply isn't time to sit and weigh your financial choices when you have to design, build, and coordinate an event in the time you're given. The people who bear the cost in our industry are also too far removed from the numbers to know what they are paying for. When you pay for an event or trade show, you don't see itemized costs down to the level of what each video component costs. You see a much larger number that has already been inflated to accommodate the expensive technology and usually has a markup.
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I think I could probably give you a quick rundown on what you would need to do for this.
GameEx has an attract mode where Mame is launched randomly. On our forums Bkenobi came up with the idea of generating a bezel on the fly with game information at the bottom of the screen. I really liked the idea so I made some designs and eventually wrote the code to generate the bezel.
There are two artwork formats in Mame, V1 (.art files pre Mame 0.107) and V2 (.lay files Mame 0.107+).
It's quite simple to get the bezel located where you want it. You really only need to adjust the values in the .art or .lay files to suit the screen size. Also you will need a different bezel for vertical games, but since you are talking about having a vertical screen that will mean you will have to have the graphics located either at the top, bottom or both. These are all done using the values inside the .art or .lay files. It will no doubt be more difficult to calculate these values for a non-standard screen size and getting pixel perfect sizing is likely impossible.
Attached is an archive of what my program generates in the two formats, and a screenshot. So using those as a guide it should make it easier to design a bezel to suit your needs.
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Btw - Id stay away from Plasmas. Ive heard that they are prone to leak
their gasses.. and eventually get nasty picture, and then die completely.
LCDs will outlast them. The only thing that seems to fail on LCDs are the
backlights. However, Ive seen people replace them. Plasmas can not
be fixed as far as I know... and if they could, Im sure it would be an
obscene cost.
Lol , Plasma TVs do not "leak", I always loved those stories. A plasma will slowly degrade in picture quality over time, just like EVERY OTHER tv type, including all the CRTs we all grew up with. However, Plasma tvs DO have a potential for burn-in (just like CRTs did). Granted there is a lot of tech in them to help prevent it, when used with normal viewing. LCD is a better way to go, because Burn-in is really not an issue. Oh, and replacing the bulb in and LCD is pretty obscene too, most would buy a new tv, as is the American way now anyway.
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I am adding an LCD to my jamma project, it's a proper arcade one though that sync's down to 15hz, have you thought about just getting an arcade mon instead of an actual PC/TV monitor??? they are not that much more price wise.
Regards.
EDIT: Pay no attention to me, if I had read it properly I would have noticed you are trying to get artwork etc... displayed also which means it does'nt need to sync to the proper resolution for arcade rgb signal, my bad, sorry! :-[
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I picked up 2 42in 1080 polaroids LCDs from walmart at $798 each.
Awesome. Thinking about using 1 to integrate into a Mameroom showcase cab.
Sweet!
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What is the response time on those Poloroids? I have a plasma at 42 inch, but I hate reflections of any kind. Still, I hate to drop down in quality either because it is a Samsung and the picture is so good...when you can see it. The 1080p thing bugs me as well. I just want to be up on tech but at the same time, I don't know how pressing this all is...wish I could go back in time.
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I picked up 2 42in 1080 polaroids LCDs from walmart at $798 each.
Awesome. Thinking about using 1 to integrate into a Mameroom showcase cab.
Glad to hear it! I got in line 5 minutes before the doors opened and, as I expected, of the 300+ people in front of me only one person grabbed a 42" 1080p before I did. There were still a couple sitting there when I checked out 15 minutes later.
That being said, I went back to Walmart about an hour and a half later to see if any scraps of the deals were left (they still had a lot of $12.88 2GB SD cards that I missed the first time through) and the rest of the 1080p's were all gone. There were still some of the smaller screens available though.
It does look like public misconception played a role. While pushing around the 1080p, an odd woman who obviously thought she had scoped out the best deals everywhere commented to me that "it was a good price, but that she got one for $399 elsewhere." Of course when I told her that the units weren't the same and that 1080p had about 1.2 million more pixels than the 720p unit she bought, I was met with about as much understanding as if I had said it to the cart she was pushing. Oh well...all the better for those who knew what they were looking for.
Congrats to the others who picked one up. Half of the creative process is actually having the stuff to be creative with. Now the search for decent, reasonably priced video cards with 1920x1080 resolution begins. Any suggestions?
What is the response time on those Poloroids?
The response time is 8ms. I fired up the Transformers movie DVD in an upscaling DVD player to check it out. Lots of fast motion and I can't say that I saw any blur. If it passed that test, it's a good sign that others will fare well.
RandyT
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Now the search for decent, reasonably priced video cards with 1920x1080 resolution begins. Any suggestions?
The current price/performance leaders are the NVidia 8800GT and the ATI Radeon HD 3870, roughly $200 (MSRP, they are not that cheap now)
It all depends on what your definition of "decent" and "reasonably priced" are. :)
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Can I ask?
If you were to mount this vertically and play a PC game (Crysis, BioShock, etc) how would it appear on the screen? Will it get streched or will it center with black bars above & below it?
I saw the pics earlier of the guy that installed his 42" and had PacMan running. That looks great to me!
Has anybody else mounted theirs like that? Any pics to share? What are the cons of doing this?
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Hey check out this cool utility..
Simple Bezel Layout Generator v2.2 (http://www.mameworld.net/maws/mame_lay.html)
Should be able to use this to generate a bezel for a widescreen LCD in the vertical position.
EDIT: Looks like Mr Do is looking at making a collection of bezels for this exact reason. Read about it here (http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=132982&page=0&view=expanded&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1)
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Thanks for the links. Good info there. Looks like Mr.Do has been listening :applaud:
Update on the Polaroid 42. I jumped ship on that unit and went with a unit that could better do 1:1 pixel output. The Polaroid looked fine for the games, and the built in up-scaling worked great, but it wasn't the best for small text. I needed to do work on it as well, so it just didn't fit my needs. If I was going to use it for games or a cabinet, I would have kept it in a heartbeat, but I couldn't afford 2.
I plan to start working on the design of the Play/Work station soon. Maybe by time I get done, Mr. Do will have some goodies ready to just plug in :)
RandyT