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Main => Main Forum => Topic started by: Chris on May 09, 2003, 09:23:03 am

Title: Adding a pinball plunger
Post by: Chris on May 09, 2003, 09:23:03 am

Now that I've added flipper buttons to my cab, I think I need to go ahead and add an actual pinball plunger for Visual Pinball.  I have on order a Black Knight plunger; the plunger knob on that is black rather than chrome, so hopefully it won't look too out of place when I'm not playing pinball...

Here's how I'm thinking of interfacing it:

- Use a pushbutton with a vertical microswitch, not a horizontal one.  This will keep the microswitch from getting hammered like a horizontal would.

- Disassemble the button.  Turn the inside plunger from the button upside down and cut away some of the plastic between the arms.  The idea is to allow the button to be pushed much deeper than normal.

- Install the plunger assembly.

- Reassemble the button and mount horizontally inside the CP such that the pinball plunger presses down the button at rest.

-  Hook up to the Normally Closed contacts of the button rather than Normally Open.

Now, when the plunger is pulled back, the button will release, and since the NC contact is connected, this will activate the button.  Releasing the plunger will re-engage the button, which Visual Pinball will see as a release.  The extra depth given to the button should absorb the force of the plunger.

Of course, this mechanism will measure how long the plunger is pulled back, not how far, but it should still feel more realistic than holding down a button...

Any comments?  Has anyone already tried this?

--Chris

Title: Re:Adding a pinball plunger
Post by: hyiu on May 09, 2003, 11:59:46 am

just a thought flashed my brain....

when you install that microswitch (or other kind of switch) at the end of the plunger....

if you install it right there... it'll take a direct hit and most likely it'll break fast.....

but if you install it indirectly.... then it should last a lot longer... (because it doesn't take any direct impact...)

Errr.... I don't think I'm clear...
ok.... think about normal pushbuttons....
the horizontal pushbuttons.... if you use a hammer and hammer the button... it'll most likely break the button AND the microswitch below....

but if its a vertical pushbutton... since the microswitch is indirectly pushed... even if you hammer the button... you're less likely to break the microswitch....

same theory apply to the plunger and the switch....

hope I'm making sense....

Title: Re:Adding a pinball plunger
Post by: Chris on May 09, 2003, 12:07:26 pm

Quote from: hyiu on May 09, 2003, 11:59:46 am

when you install that microswitch (or other kind of switch) at the end of the plunger....

if you install it right there... it'll take a direct hit and most likely it'll break fast.....

but if you install it indirectly.... then it should last a lot longer... (because it doesn't take any direct impact...)

Errr.... I don't think I'm clear...
ok.... think about normal pushbuttons....
the horizontal pushbuttons.... if you use a hammer and hammer the button... it'll most likely break the button AND the microswitch below....

but if its a vertical pushbutton... since the microswitch is indirectly pushed... even if you hammer the button... you're less likely to break the microswitch....

same theory apply to the plunger and the switch....

hope I'm making sense....

This is why I specified using a vertical pusbutton, and modifying it so it can be pushed deeper than the stroke of the plunger.  I had considered simply mounting the button plunger onto the pinball plunger tip, but I didn't think I'd be able to keep them aligned with the microswitch.

The other option I'm considering would be to use an optical switch rather than a mechanical one.

--Chris

Title: Re:Adding a pinball plunger
Post by: TheTick on May 09, 2003, 01:30:31 pm

What are you using for an interface? I'm not sure how an Ipac would handle a normally closed switch.

My Happs plunger arrives tonight. Still playing with ideas to hook it up.

You could just make a leaf switch. You'll have to adjust it eventually, but it won't break. Just two thin conductive strips of metal.
I think I'm going to use a second spring mounted inside the control panel... both to absorb the plunger hit and prevent it from resting on the switch. I would than program a marco for the button so when its pressed it will send a series of keystrokes to pull the virtual plunger back, and than release it.  I'm not sure about visual pinball, but the ones I've used allow you to pull the virtual plunger back different amounts with the "down arrow" key.

Title: Re:Adding a pinball plunger
Post by: Chris on May 09, 2003, 01:45:12 pm

Quote from: TheTick on May 09, 2003, 01:30:31 pm

I'm not sure about visual pinball, but the ones I've used allow you to pull the virtual plunger back different amounts with the "down arrow" key.

Visual Pinball measures how long you hold the plunger key down, and the speed the plunger travels down is dependent on the table.  This should lead to a fairly natural action, as pulling the plunger back halfway and releasing it should take less time than pulling it back all the way and releasing it.  I may need to adjust some of the tables, though, to get the timing as close to natural as possible...

--Chris

Title: Re:Adding a pinball plunger
Post by: CM on May 09, 2003, 01:51:17 pm

Just a thought .. I made my joystick the plunger function in VP, and it works quite nice.  You still get the pull back feel and the "thwomp" of releasing it.    Not as authentic .. but much easier  ;)

Title: Re:Adding a pinball plunger
Post by: hyiu on May 09, 2003, 02:07:48 pm

should be ok about the normally closed situation...

cos microswitches have NO and NC connections... you can plug the other way.... which will reverse the whole thing....

Title: Re:Adding a pinball plunger
Post by: shmokes on May 09, 2003, 02:26:33 pm

I've never used visual pinball.  Is there any way to control how hard you launch the ball with the plunger?  It doesn't seem like this could be controlled with your setup.

Title: Re:Adding a pinball plunger
Post by: CitznFish on May 09, 2003, 02:33:21 pm

Quote from: shmokes on May 09, 2003, 02:26:33 pm

I've never used visual pinball.  Is there any way to control how hard you launch the ball with the plunger?  It doesn't seem like this could be controlled with your setup.

from 3 posts up:

Quote

Visual Pinball measures how long you hold the plunger key down, and the speed the plunger travels down is dependent on the table.  This should lead to a fairly natural action, as pulling the plunger back halfway and releasing it should take less time than pulling it back all the way and releasing it.  I may need to adjust some of the tables, though, to get the timing as close to natural as possible...

--Chris

Title: Re:Adding a pinball plunger
Post by: TheTick on May 09, 2003, 03:46:53 pm

Variation of my suggestion...

Construct your own switch using metal strips. Connection isn't closed (completed) until the plunger is pulled all the way back. The longer you hold it back, the farther the virtual plunger would be pulled back. Releasing the plunger releases the virtual plunger.

Fasten something like a metal L-Bracket to the inside of the control panels shell. And attach a piece of metal the plunger that will make contact when it is fully extracted. Wire one to ground, and the other up as a button on the IPAC. I suppose you could attach a microswitch to the L-Bracket, and just have the piece extended from the plunger press it in.

The plunger won't physically hit anything on its return, so no switch to damage and no leaves to adjust.

Title: Re:Adding a pinball plunger
Post by: RetroBorg on May 09, 2003, 06:26:57 pm

Thought you might want to check this fellows cabinet out.

(http://users.bigpond.net.au/paj/images/gallery/masters/plunger1.JPG)

http://users.bigpond.net.au/paj/images/gallery/cp.html

Title: Re:Adding a pinball plunger
Post by: Xiaou2 on May 09, 2003, 06:47:41 pm

  That poor microswitch is gona get beat to death - heh


  Anyway... I think we should all write mails to the author of visual pinball to get true analog support for plungers.

  You could then use either an analog joystick hack - by using a pot with a gear system... or hack a mouse to make an optical wheel system.   Either would be pretty simple to make...

  Also, displaying a pinball table vertically (rotate monitor)would be a great addition... as youd have a lot more screen to look at.

  I emailed once... but got no responce.  Maybe if a lot more people mail for these features... they might be added soon.


 
 

Title: Re:Adding a pinball plunger
Post by: TheTick on May 09, 2003, 11:55:07 pm

Quote from: RetroBorg on May 09, 2003, 06:26:57 pm

Thought you might want to check this fellows cabinet out.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/paj/images/gallery/cp.html

So much for trying to do something original and unique, huh?

I think I'll still be trying to mount the switch on the other end of the shaft. If that doesn't work, sure looks like that will.

Title: Re:Adding a pinball plunger
Post by: kspiff on May 10, 2003, 01:11:43 am

I think it's time for an Analog+ version of PinMAME.. it's usually pretty hard to get emu authors to add these kinds of things, it seems.

Title: Re:Adding a pinball plunger
Post by: Chris on May 10, 2003, 10:50:50 am

Quote from: RetroBorg on May 09, 2003, 06:26:57 pm

Thought you might want to check this fellows cabinet out.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/paj/images/gallery/cp.html

Excellent!  Thank you for finding this!

--Chris

Title: Re:Adding a pinball plunger
Post by: RetroBorg on May 11, 2003, 06:28:50 am

While I probably end up doing a plunger similar to the one in the earlier picture I think Xiaou2 is on the right track for the most authentic experience.

You want to be able to half pull or 3/4 pull that plunger out to make that skill shot, not have to pull it out for a set amount of time before releasing.

The feel I would like to replicate most with the plunger is when you playing pinny and you've had a bad ball and your pissed off with the machine but instead of pulling back the plunger, you bash it forward with the palm of your hand as hard as you can, man that felt good.

Title: Re:Adding a pinball plunger
Post by: Sasquatch! on May 11, 2003, 10:33:50 am

Quote from: TheTick on May 09, 2003, 03:46:53 pm

Variation of my suggestion...

This is quite clever.  I like it!

Title: Re:Adding a pinball plunger
Post by: shmokes on May 11, 2003, 02:39:13 pm

I think this variation on your design will give you the desired results without having to write to the author of Visual Pinball.

Title: Re:Adding a pinball plunger
Post by: Xiaou2 on May 11, 2003, 02:48:59 pm

 
 In a real pinball machine... you can pull back and release the plunger in less than a second...  but with this design... you only have to pull backl enuff to active the switch - then have to wait the desired (err - preprogrammed) time... then let go.


  That makes it not even worth adding the device...  as its only a button.

  Also... due to the explosive nature of the device (using a microswitch)... youll probably have to end up fixing it more than youd like to admit.

  I dont know why its so hard to write a little mail asking for a feature???!!!

   If enough mails and message boards werent littered with request for artwork in mame... it probably wouldnt exist today.  

 

Title: Re:Adding a pinball plunger
Post by: Chris on May 12, 2003, 03:29:23 pm

Because Visual Pinball is written by a single, fairly reclusive individual, as opposed to the large group of MAME developers. Trying to get Randy to add major features is next to impossible already; convincing him to add a feature that is only useful to a handful of people using a real plunger on MAME cabinets would be next to impossible.

However, Visual Pinball uses VBScript, so one could write a COM Object interface that would take the appropriate input and make it available to VP.  You would then have to modify each table to use this interface, but it could be done.

Or, one could use a rotary encoder like those used on wheel mice to determine how far back the plunger had been pulled; these could be translated into keystrokes and used by VP.  Again, each table would have to be modified to use this input method, but a COM object would no longer be necessary.

Personally, I think I'll be happy enough using the plunger with a microswitch, but if not, I can explore one of these methods...

--Chris

Title: Re:Adding a pinball plunger
Post by: Tekkie on May 14, 2003, 07:49:52 pm

As a simple substitute for a pinball plunger on my cabinet, I assigned the function to the "down" switch on the player 2 joystick (i.e. the F key).  Pulling it back with the fingertips and letting it spring forward at least feels a little more realistic than pressing a button.   :)
Might try the other 3 directions for tilt as well.


Russ.

Title: Re:Adding a pinball plunger
Post by: shmokes on May 14, 2003, 10:01:57 pm

Quote from: Tekkie on May 14, 2003, 07:49:52 pm

...I assigned the function to the "down" switch on the player 2 joystick (i.e. the F key).  Pulling it back with the fingertips and letting it spring forward at least feels a little more realistic than pressing a button.   :)

Brilliant.  Simple.  Brilliant.