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Main => Main Forum => Topic started by: mlalena on August 02, 2007, 12:23:11 pm

Title: Lots of Newbie questions and first Control Panel review
Post by: mlalena on August 02, 2007, 12:23:11 pm
(http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/6412/cphu6.gif) (http://imageshack.us)

This is my first pass at a design. It is loosely based on the SlikStik Quad model & some other similar 4 player designs I've seen around.

Front Player Controls:
P1 & P2 Ultimarc U360 joysticks w/ 7 buttons for NeoGeo
P3 & P4 Happ Super8 joysticks w/ 4 buttons.

http://www.mameworld.net/maws/ showed there weren’t many 4 player games that used anything but 8-way sticks so I’m always using the Player 3 & 4 Super8’s as 8-way joysticks.

All 4 joysticks are straight aligned for double stick games like Smash TV.

Middle Controls:
Keeping everything color coded by player, 1-red, 2-black, 3-blue, 4-green.

Some friends tend to hit the trackball hard in Golden Tee, so I didn’t want any controls behind the Red trackball in a 45 degree arc to either side. Dedicated Buttons left/right of track ball for turn left/right and backspin in Golden Tee

2 additional trackballs (think Rampart) with 2 dedicated left hand buttons for each. Player 2 & 3 trackballs don’t have top plate to save room and they are angled toward the screen.

The 2 right hand buttons for the red trackball also serve as left hand buttons for the red spinner (think Tempest)

I believe there is room to reach the second row of controls.  I will try everything on cardboard after I order the parts so things may shift around a bit. Here is the general idea:

Back Controls:
1-4 Player and Coin buttons for each player.
Purple = pause. Save, Load, Escape… at very top. Not sure of exact color/function yet.

Each U360 gives me 8 button inputs and takes up 2 USB ports.
The main Player 1 trackball will be a 3” HAPP USB/PS2 trackball can connect as straight USB and act as a mouse. Also has 3 button inputs for left, middle, right mouse click.
An Opti-Pac gives me the other 2 trackballs & the 1 spinner
An I-Pac will fill out the remaining button/joystick controls.

Questions:

1) I have 44 buttons, but 35 are unique. Other 9 are duplicates (maybe even more if all 4 coin buttons map to Coin 1 instead of Coin 1-4). If multiple buttons (up to 4) are keyed toward the same key, then can they all connect to the same pin-out on an I-Pac?

2) Do some games require a Coin2 button – and only give the money to the player who put it in?

3) Can I get the U360 is colors other than red or black, or interchangeable with other models like the Super 8? That way I don’t have to use black for Player 2 and can reserve black for admin buttons.

5) If the Opti-Pac is being used for 2 trackballs and 1 spinner, how many other inputs (joysticks/buttons) can it control?

6) Is it better to not get the USB trackball, and get multiple Opti-Pac/Mini-Pac instead?

7) Will this setup cause any problems with too many USB connections? I believe the U360 drivers are independent and uniquely identify each joystick and will take care of themselves. The main trackball will act as the primary mouse. Does the Opti-Pac have 2 USB outputs? Will the Opti-Pac and I-Pac have any conflicts?

8 ) Most of my prices below are ebay. Anyone know where to get the stuff cheaper, or one place where I can get everything and save on shipping?

Parts List:
44Long Concave Pushbutton with Cherry Horizontal Microswitch$1.50x44
2Ultimarc UltraStik 360$60x2
2Happ Super8$10x2
1Happ Controls 3” USB Trackball w/ Mount plate$90
2Happ Controls 3” USB Trackball$65x2
1SlikStik Spinner$90

Not worried much about the cabinet right now. Control Panel will be 3/4” MDF. Will use 27” TV w/ S-Video. Still need to work out how wide the CP will be and how far away the front of the CP should be from the TV. May also add light guns to this in the future, since they don’t need to take up room on the CP.

I'm sure someone will ask why I don't use multiple control panels, and the basic answer is that I know the kids will play with it and they are way too young to start swapping in and out different control panels.
Title: Re: Lots of Newbie questions and first Control Panel review
Post by: Green Giant on August 02, 2007, 01:43:01 pm
1)  You can have as many buttons keyed to a spot as you want, but they will always be able to be pressed.  Someone could walk up and hit them.  I have two pause buttons to the same spot so each player can reach it easily.

2)  Some games do require more than one coin input.  Player two coins will show up as player two only.
6)  I have heard lots of people say the direct connected usb trackballs don't work that well.  On a big swing in Golden Tee, they will sometimes miss read the strength and maybe even give you backspin when going forward.  It is better to use the optipac or an optiwiz from GGG instead.  Both of those can sample the spin rate much more accurately.

7)  You should be able to have as many usb connections as you want.  I am not sure if they have any device id's, but once they are in the spot you want them, they should always recognize in that order.    I use GGG which lets you choose the device id, but I have not heard of any problems with ultimarc stuff.

8 )  With all the parts you want, you will be spending alot of money.  One thing is you don't need the trackball with USB integrated.  Then you can get three $65 trackballs and one mounting plate for $11
Title: Re: Lots of Newbie questions and first Control Panel review
Post by: Zeno on August 02, 2007, 02:17:47 pm
Dito.

Good posting Green.
Title: Re: Lots of Newbie questions and first Control Panel review
Post by: mlalena on August 03, 2007, 10:33:51 am
OK, I will go with 3 non USB track balls.
I will probably need an Opti-Pac and a Mini-Pac to run everything to run the 3 trackballs, and that will have more than enough other inputs to handle the other joysticks and buttons and even a spinner.

Does this same issue with USB trackballs not tracking on fast spins also apply to the USB SlikStik spinner?
I don't need a USB spinner. With the Opti-Pac I will have open slots to run a normal spinner.
Is there some other cheaper non-USB spinner I should be looking at?
I prefer a tempest style spinner.
Title: Re: Lots of Newbie questions and first Control Panel review
Post by: Green Giant on August 04, 2007, 05:09:43 am
I am not to sure about spinners as I don't have one, but I have heard good things about the turbotwist spinner from groovygamegear.
Title: Re: Lots of Newbie questions and first Control Panel review
Post by: Apollo on August 04, 2007, 06:26:06 am
I'm going to assume that your post is some kind of a joke, so good one, you fooled a few people already!
This is your first attempt at a control panel? Have you heard the term frankenpanel and do you know why it's a bad thing?
You are not seriously thinking of installing 3 trackballs just so you can play rampart?!
I am almost at a loss for words when I think that people are seriously considering this kind of control panel.
Sorry dude, I know you are excited about this but you really need to rethink.

Just my 2c worth.




Title: Re: Lots of Newbie questions and first Control Panel review
Post by: vidmouse on August 04, 2007, 10:57:04 am
Green, how wide deep is this supposed to be?
I'm concerned you really don't have enough space between players.
I'd agree w/ the 3-player trackball comment, seems overkill...
too much work for a game you may not play that
often.

I would agree w/ the one trackball in the center being
clear of the joysticks

I'm not sure you need all those admin buttons in the
upper left... since you're planning on using an IPAC
you can map admin keys to other keys using its shift function.
A better use for those buttons would be on the sides for pinball,
but only if your panel isn't so dang wide (kind of a tradeoff
between pinball and having 4-players, I know)

Good luck...
Title: Re: Lots of Newbie questions and first Control Panel review
Post by: miles2912 on August 04, 2007, 11:39:57 am
Let me chime in here..  agreed that there are a few too many admin buttons up in the top left.  You can remap a shift key and you will be fine. 

- It is going to be too wide for pinball
- when I hear terms like 'frakenpanel' I think practical.  We are talking about a 3000+ game machine here.  Mock it in cardboard just to get a feel for the size
- not a big fan of sloped buttons.  I like em straight across.  Just feels better that way.
- games like gauntlet will need coin buttons for each player but you can simply remap one of the buttons next to the players joystick
- think hard about 3 trackballs.  Only a few games need em.. however if rampart was a favorite then by all means!
- I would buy all the parts from ponyboy or divemaster I have had some less than reputable deals on e-bay




Title: Re: Lots of Newbie questions and first Control Panel review
Post by: unclet on August 04, 2007, 01:10:22 pm
It seems you could reduce your control panel depth by a few inches if you find a new spot for the white/black/yellow/orange buttons located up there on the left.

I would consider the term "frankenpanel" a good thing if you have kids and/or a bunch of neighborhood kids come over and play.   I have a four player control panel and all for joysticks get used quite often.

I say, if you have the money, the house space and like the look of the control panel, then go for it.   Overkill could be a good thing when it is in a hobby you enjoy.

PS:  You might want to add an additional spinner so you could play Warlords   ;D
Title: Re: Lots of Newbie questions and first Control Panel review
Post by: mlalena on August 04, 2007, 05:57:14 pm
Thanks for the feedback guys.

I've gotta go with Unclet's view. I have 3 kids 6 & under and 1 more on the way + lots of neighborhood kids that hang out. I'm can just hear the screaming now. "Dad, can you change the control panel so I can play ...". And if I don't have enough controls for all the kids, then it will be "Dad, he wont let me have my turn...". I'm not going for authentic looking. I just want something that can play the most games with the least amount of work once everything is assembled.

Of course I am building this for me, and some of my favorite multi-player games as a teen were Gauntlet, Rampart, Smash TV... Eariler it was Tempest and some Golden Tee later. Also liked the shooting & racing games alot but I'm not worring about those now.

Also, since the wife will make me put this in the basement, space isn't a consideration. Finishing part the basement now. Have over 1800 sqft down there. Basement should be done this month and the MAME will be a winter project.

I know some people don't like lots of admin buttons, but it will be easier for the kids. Having every admin button a different color will also help. That way, when I get "Dad, which button to quit the game". I can say the orange one instead of hit the 2nd black button on the right and move the P1 joystick to the left. I'm not walkng down into the basement every 5 minutes to help them change a game. Since I need a Opti-Pac and a Mini-Pac to run the track balls, I will have more than enough button inputs for admin buttons.

I realized later that the P3 & P4 don't need to be straight with the monitor to play Smash Tv so it doesn't need to be as wide. See other post http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=69672.0 (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=69672.0). Again, space isn't a consideration so if it needs to be wide and I have to move everything a foot back and get a larger monitor, then I will do that. I will mock it all out in cardboard first.  I want to make sure everyone can fit together and the trackballs/spinner can be reached while resting arms on the control panel and not resting on any buttons.

My biggest concern was if the MAME software and USB drivers could handle this panel, and it sounds like they can.
Title: Re: Lots of Newbie questions and first Control Panel review
Post by: unclet on August 04, 2007, 07:58:01 pm
I do agree with you about helping the kids out.  This was the main reason I did not want to have to rely on Ipac Shift functions ..... I wanted to have all the buttons available for the kids to learn what button does what function.   After all, if you have the space to house a big control panel, then go for it.  Make it have everything you need onit and then you will never wish you had added it at the start.

Good luck and please post pictures when you done.  Also, with kids I would recommend rounding off all the corners of the cabinet to be safe.
Title: Re: Lots of Newbie questions and first Control Panel review
Post by: BORIStheBLADE on August 04, 2007, 10:43:15 pm
Has anyone got a good way of labeling buttons like pause, save ect?

With extra buttons you would probably want to have them labeled.
Title: Re: Lots of Newbie questions and first Control Panel review
Post by: mlalena on August 05, 2007, 06:35:42 pm
I've seen some people go with this company: http://mamemarquees.com/ (http://mamemarquees.com/)
They can print up to 2'x6' custom laminated control panel overlays.

I work for one of Kodak's spin-offs and I'm still trying to see if I can get access to any equipment that can do this. I could get something printed on photopaper 2 foot by any length, but I don't think photo paper under plexi would look good.
Title: Re: Lots of Newbie questions and first Control Panel review
Post by: javeryh on August 05, 2007, 09:05:06 pm
I don't think kids will be able to figure all of this out.  I have a  very basic 2P CP with 4 admin buttons and I get non-stop questions from my friends (in their 30s and grew up in the arcades) on how to get things working.

My advice would be to figure out what games are important and design around that (I also have a bias against 4P CPs because I think there's only about 6-7 games that are fun with 4 people playing at once plus the fact that having 4 people around to play is a rarity).

If space isn't a concern in your basement build two cabs with different CPs.
Title: Re: Lots of Newbie questions and first Control Panel review
Post by: brock.sampson on August 05, 2007, 11:27:24 pm
I bought some vinyl decals for my admin buttons from Pongo http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=64645.0.  I think they turned out great.  I have a 7 year old and he and the neighbor kids don't have any problems with the admin buttons.  I also added some switches so I can disable the quater buttons and force them to pay. ;)  I've gotta pay for this hobby somehow.  Attached are a couple pics.  Sorry my digital camera and the operator suck.

Title: Re: Lots of Newbie questions and first Control Panel review
Post by: fjl on August 06, 2007, 12:24:45 am
what are the lightning and list buttons for?
Title: Re: Lots of Newbie questions and first Control Panel review
Post by: Green Giant on August 06, 2007, 02:46:31 am
If you are going for the giant frankenpanel look, there are two things to do that can make it look good.

Make a huge arcade with a 33" monitor if you can find one.  Many frankenpanels look like wings cause they are disproportionate to the cab.

Also, don't skip on the control panel overlay.  A good CPO with everything labled or good graphics will make it look good.

Another option that gets pricey is an ledwiz and led's under everything.  I have this on mine, however I only have a two player cab with a trackball.  The beauty is I never have to explain controls, I just say use the lit buttons.  There are plugins that automatically light the original games buttons.  With kids it would make it easy, but it will cost you ever more money.  Run it by the wife, they sometimes like the idea of all the pretty colors.
Title: Re: Lots of Newbie questions and first Control Panel review
Post by: Spaced Ace on August 06, 2007, 04:08:37 am
Holy crap man, that thing is huge.  Id like to see the finished product, and what design your going to use.
Title: Re: Lots of Newbie questions and first Control Panel review
Post by: vidmouse on August 06, 2007, 08:29:45 am
mlalena -

Did you ever decide on how many trackballs you were
going to use?

If you're still keeping that layout w/ 3 trackballs, I'd be
concerned about the ones on the sides.... look like they'd
be hard to really control with the joysticks in the way.
Are you not using mounting plates on those?
Title: Re: Lots of Newbie questions and first Control Panel review
Post by: brock.sampson on August 06, 2007, 09:57:23 am
Quote from: efjayel on August 06, 2007, 12:24:45 am
what are the lightning and list buttons for?

Lightning = Shazam (shift)
List = Takes you to the lists of emulators in mamewah.

I was originally going to have a mame only cab so that was going to be games lists and then I started adding additioinal emulators so I switched it to lists of emulators.
Title: Re: Lots of Newbie questions and first Control Panel review
Post by: fjl on August 06, 2007, 10:22:26 am
Do you use a frontend to give you a list of these emulators? And wouldn't the exit button simply lead you back to this emulator list instead of having an additional button set up for it? Not exactly sure how that list button works on your cab. Give me some info please  :)
Title: Re: Lots of Newbie questions and first Control Panel review
Post by: urbecrisch on August 06, 2007, 10:28:21 am
Make sure you install coin mechs in the CAB to help pay for all the equipment!  You might as well make some cash if all the neighborhood kids will come over to play (and their dad)!

I agree with Green Giant.  Make sure your monitor and overall CAB is big enough to compensate for the huge CP!  Please don't end up making a CAB that looks like this :dizzy:

Title: Re: Lots of Newbie questions and first Control Panel review
Post by: shardian on August 06, 2007, 10:30:32 am
If you have a ton of space (and obviously money if your basement is that big), and a bunch of kids then your best bet is to mameify a few junker cabs. That way, all of the kids can play at the same time on different machines. You could mame several cabs for the price you would have in this monstrosity of a control panel.

If you are dead set on this frankenpanel, then DEFINITELY do a mockup. You will proably find that little kids arms can't even reach alot of the controls comfortably.
Title: Re: Lots of Newbie questions and first Control Panel review
Post by: Malenko on August 06, 2007, 11:04:32 am
I thought frankenpanels died with the invention of swappable panels?

you wanted feedback and I'm just bing honest with you, I think that panel is too big with far too many controls on it, over kill is an understatement.

I honestly think you're better off either building multiple panels or multiple cabs
Title: Re: Lots of Newbie questions and first Control Panel review
Post by: xmenxmen on August 06, 2007, 12:29:57 pm
Speaking from someone that built a dedicated 4 player for kids, here's some things that was done.

Player 1 and 2 only had 6 buttons.  Player 3 and 4 had only 3 buttons.  All players have Player and coin buttons (required for most multiplayer games).  No admin buttons at all on the control panel.  With kids, pause is not needed at all.  On top of cab, a quit and pc power button is installed.  The older kids can get on chair and hit those buttons.   

As for the game list, hide on the game list, just have one favorite list and add on additional games as needed.  Player 1 joystick can go up and down to select game and Player1 start starts game. 

BTW, there is no trackball or spinner.  Found kids don't play that very often.  And don't forget the plexi.  Don't remember how many times I have clean the cp. 

Control panel is about 42in wide and 18in depth with a 25in tv.  All kids can see fine.

That's all folks....
Title: Re: Lots of Newbie questions and first Control Panel review
Post by: brock.sampson on August 06, 2007, 03:14:52 pm
I use mamewah so it doesn't list them on a main page or anything you have to use a button to get to the list.  1/player1 start selects the emulator and 2 exits the list selection.  Exit will do nothing when selecting a list.  That is also the tab key so I can easily get in and modify game settings as well.  Exit button will only exit the current game.  Pressing Exit and List at the same time dumps you out to windows.