Build Your Own Arcade Controls Forum

Main => Main Forum => Topic started by: paigeoliver on April 22, 2003, 02:30:05 am

Title: 87 buttons REALLY neccesary??
Post by: paigeoliver on April 22, 2003, 02:30:05 am

Other than Street Fighter games, and other crappy beat em ups and Neo Geos how many arcade games actually use more than one or two  buttons?  I am leaning toward using just 2 buttons per player, sort of in a line shape like this.

  o  o

The first button exactly fits my index finger, and therefore would be perfect for games like Galaga.  The 2nd button provides a little more flexibility and shouldn't get in the way.

Am I missing a lot by not going for the standard "eighty-seven" buttons???  I mostly plan on playing classic games, but I may have friends over who want to play some of the newer stuff (Final Fight maybe?).

Any comments welcome, and needed!

 ;D

Title: Re:87 buttons REALLY neccesary??
Post by: austinrfnd on April 22, 2003, 03:05:09 am

The way I figure it man, is that if your building a cabinet, and it's not specialized, why not make it as universal as possible?  

I say do the extra buttons, will it hurt to have extra buttons your cabinet?

Title: Re:87 buttons REALLY neccesary??
Post by: Ghoul on April 22, 2003, 03:05:52 am

It's been a while since I heard final fight characterized as "the new stuff."  ;D

This is a commonly asked question, and it's true the VAST majority of games use only two buttons. I think if you do not include a 6 button street fighter layout you might regret it. Look at the games you commonly play, if you really are only playing games that use 2 buttons then just two buttons is fine I suppose.

Remember that if you only have two buttons and you have a fighter-sized control panel to give enough elbow room for two players that the CP will look kind of barren or awkward (unless you do a good job with the artwork).

Title: Re:87 buttons REALLY neccesary??
Post by: Tiger-Heli on April 22, 2003, 07:44:41 am

Quote from: paigeoliver on April 22, 2003, 02:30:05 am

Other than Street Fighter games, and other crappy beat em ups and Neo Geos how many arcade games actually use more than one or two  buttons?  I am leaning toward using just 2 buttons per player, sort of in a line shape like this.

  o  o

The first button exactly fits my index finger, and therefore would be perfect for games like Galaga.  The 2nd button provides a little more flexibility and shouldn't get in the way.

Am I missing a lot by not going for the standard "eighty-seven" buttons???  I mostly plan on playing classic games, but I may have friends over who want to play some of the newer stuff (Final Fight maybe?).

Any comments welcome, and needed!

 ;D

Not sure if this post was meant to be sarcastic (and no one else caught it) or not, (given the recent posts on "Are 6 buttons necessary) and "Diamond or square for 4-buttons"

In the hope that this is serious, or could be useful to others, here is some excerpts from a page I am doing on choosing a keyboard encoder, which should help this topic (although it is geared more to modular panels and 4 (or more) player support).

This is basically answering the more general "How many buttons do I need?, How many inputs do I need questions?"

Reality Check

Consider the following when evaluating an Encoder ?

For two-player games, many of the classics used only one button per player (Galaga, Gyruss, Time Pilot, Galaxian, Space Invaders, Mario Bros.).  Even more used two buttons per player (Sky Shark, Twin Cobra, Tiger-Heli, (most vertical shooters, for that matter, Double Dragon, Rolling Thunder, and a lot of the horizontal scrollers, etc.)  Three button games were somewhat rarer (Gun.Smoke, Missile Command, Blasteroids), but you could spread these inputs over player one and two if required.  However, there were a fair number of 4-player 3-button games, and you could play any of these with only two people.  There were a few four button games (Defender, Armor Attack, Rip-Off, Star Castle, and some Neo-Geo games, etc.)  Of these, only Armor Attack and the Neo-Geo's were two player simultaneous.  There were a few 5-button games, notably Asteroids, Asteroids Deluxe, Star Gate and Space Duel, and the early Mortal Kombat series.  Of these, only MK and Space Duel were two player simultaneous.  Finally, I think only the Street Fighter and Capcom Fighter style games were six-button, simultaneous, but it is a good idea to support this games if there is any chance you (or your friends) might be playing them.

There are many 3-player and 4-player 3-button games.  There are no 3-player 4-button games.  There is only one 3-player 5-button game "Guardians of the Hood" in MAME as a test driver, and only one 3-player 6-button game "Powerpuff Girls", Status unknown.

There are three 4-player 4-button games - Dungeons & Dragons - Shadow Over Mystera, Dungeons & Dragons - Tower of Doom, and NBA Jam Extreme.  There are no 4-player games with more than 4 buttons.  Super Street Fighter 2  - Tournament Edition is 4-player but 2 players play at any time and alternate.  War: Final Assault is 4-player with 6 buttons and a trigger stick with thumb button (8 buttons) but the game had 4 cabinets networked together, so it should be considered single player when designing a cabinet.

There are no 5-player games, however, I have included them in the considerations below, because it may be possible to play a 6-player game with only 5-players present using some of the encoders.

There is one 6-player 2-button game "Hard Dunk (emulated by Modeler and MAME, but the MAME version is 2-player only), two 6-player 3-button games - X-men and JSR Arcade - Second Chapter and one 6-player 6-button game, Clue (although I think that one may be bogus).

In addition, while these games expect discrete coin inputs, in most cases the P1 Start buttons, etc., while present on the CP, are actually mapped in parallel to the P1B1 buttons, so these can be eliminated when planning a CP.

(To be continued . . . )

Title: Re:87 buttons REALLY neccesary??
Post by: Tiger-Heli on April 22, 2003, 07:49:29 am

In Perspective

The first thing this clearly means is the P3SW5 through P3SW8 and P4SW5 through P4SW8 inputs on the I?PAC/4 are meaningless as defined (they are still useful to have as extra inputs, but they won't be used the way they are named).

The next thing is that we can play 95% of all MAME games with 4-players and 3-buttons each support.  So, we need 28 inputs total, plus 4 coin buttons or 32 inputs total.
 
For the three 4-Player 4-button games, we need 32 inputs or 36 with the four coin inputs.  

Next would be support for six player 2-button games with one player missing.  This requires 30 inputs or 35 with coin inputs.
 
Next jump is to six-player 3-button games with one player missing.  This requires 35 inputs or 40 with coin inputs.
 
The next jump is six-player 2-button games - 36 inputs or 42 with coin inputs.
 
Finally we have six-player 3-button games - 42 inputs or 48 with coin inputs.
 
Little-Known Factoids

The case for more inputs - Okay, the most complex game (X-men 6P) requires 6 joysticks and 3-buttons each, so 42 inputs.  Add 6 Coin and Start buttons and Pause and Escape and you have 56 inputs, which is what the I-PAC/4 provides.  So are you throwing your money away on a MK64 encoder?  Not necessarily.   Consider the following:  The I-PAC/4 above supports enough inputs for 6-player 3-button games, but all inputs are used.  This means that Player 1 buttons 4 through 8 and Player 2 buttons 4 through 8 are used for some of the higher numbered player inputs.  But you probably have these buttons available on your panel for Street Fighter type games, etc.  So Player 1 or Player 2 can mess with the other player by pressing the 4 through 6 buttons and making the other player shoot or move, etc.  A controller with more inputs allows you to make each key a dedicated button and avoid this.

The (very slim) case for more than 64 inputs - Surprisingly, 64 inputs proved to be ideal for my panels:
P1 and P2 Directionals and 6 buttons - 20 inputs
P1 and P2 Rotation and P3 directionals (combined) - 4 inputs
P3 buttons 1 through 4 - 4 inputs
P4 directionals and buttons 1 through 4 - 8 inputs
P5 and P6 directionals and 3 buttons - 14 inputs
6 coin and start buttons - 12 inputs
Pause and Escape - 2 inputs

Total - 64 inputs.

The only situations you would want more is either a) You want a lot of extra buttons for MAME admin functions such as Tab, Tilde, Enter, F12, F11, F3, F2, F8, etc., or b) You plan to use your panels for console (X-box, NES, Playstation) emulation, which often used 4 player games with 6 or more buttons each.  However, in my opinion, these games were designed to be played on gamepads, and you would be better spending your money on a less expensive encoder and buying a bunch of USB gamepads.

Title: Re:87 buttons REALLY neccesary??
Post by: Chris on April 22, 2003, 02:48:10 pm

Excellent work, Tiger-Heli!

--Chris

Title: Re:87 buttons REALLY neccesary??
Post by: anthony691 on April 22, 2003, 04:22:49 pm

I would go with AT LEAST 3. Three really offers alot more to you.

Title: Re:87 buttons REALLY neccesary??
Post by: JamesMolloy on April 22, 2003, 05:47:07 pm

The funny thing is you actually do need 50+ buttons to play all the games on MAME properly. Some of the Majong ones need tons.

Title: Re:87 buttons REALLY neccesary??
Post by: Jakobud on April 22, 2003, 06:21:13 pm

Quote from: JamesMolloy on April 22, 2003, 05:47:07 pm

The funny thing is you actually do need 50+ buttons to play all the games on MAME properly. Some of the Majong ones need tons.

Last I checked the maximum amount of Player buttons Mame will allow one to configure for Players 1 and 2 are ten buttons each.

Title: Re:87 buttons REALLY neccesary??
Post by: anthony691 on April 22, 2003, 06:25:47 pm

Quote from: Jakobud on April 22, 2003, 06:21:13 pm

Quote from: JamesMolloy on April 22, 2003, 05:47:07 pm

The funny thing is you actually do need 50+ buttons to play all the games on MAME properly. Some of the Majong ones need tons.

Last I checked the maximum amount of Player buttons Mame will allow one to configure for Players 1 and 2 are ten buttons each.

It is true (I am 99.99% sure) that MAME can't support 50+ buttons; however the real cabs of those Mahjong games are wacky and have  about that many!

Title: Re:87 buttons REALLY neccesary??
Post by: Lilwolf on April 22, 2003, 07:11:01 pm

I have a MK64 and for my next project, I might need another.

And yes, all in one cabinet....

Title: Re:87 buttons REALLY neccesary??
Post by: u_rebelscum on April 22, 2003, 11:57:54 pm

Quote from: anthony691 on April 22, 2003, 06:25:47 pm

Quote from: Jakobud on April 22, 2003, 06:21:13 pm

Quote from: JamesMolloy on April 22, 2003, 05:47:07 pm

The funny thing is you actually do need 50+ buttons to play all the games on MAME properly. Some of the Majong ones need tons.

Last I checked the maximum amount of Player buttons Mame will allow one to configure for Players 1 and 2 are ten buttons each.

It is true (I am 99.99% sure) that MAME can't support 50+ buttons; however the real cabs of those Mahjong games are wacky and have  about that many!

Mah Jong games have more than 10 buttons per player by not using mame's pre-defined button settings, and instead making their own.  Examples:

"Normal" definition of a button

PORT_BIT( 0x01, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_BUTTON1 | IPF_PLAYER1 )

Definition of non-standard buttons:

PORT_BITX(0x01, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, 0, "P1 Button 1", KEYCODE_LCONTROL, JOYCODE_1_BUTTON1 )

There are 2-player mah jong games in mame (royalmah for instance), with each player having 26 buttons + 1 start (total 54 buttons).  

FWIW, theoretically Mame can support a lot of buttons.  Internally, the max is 20 ports (MAX_INPUT_PORTS) * 16 bits per port = 320 buttons (if all ports are used, if the inputs aren't "matrix-ed" inside mame, and if all ports are buttons, ie: no dipswitches, no analog inputs).  In windows mame the max physical inputs would be: 256 keyboard buttons + 4 mouse buttons + (32 joystick buttons * 4 joysticks per mame) = 388 input buttons.  Of course, no games or hardware comes close to either these limits.  ;)

Title: Re:87 buttons REALLY neccesary??
Post by: paigeoliver on April 23, 2003, 12:42:40 am

Quote

FWIW, theoretically Mame can support a lot of buttons.  Internally, the max is 20 ports (MAX_INPUT_PORTS) * 16 bits per port = 320 buttons (if all ports are used, if the inputs aren't "matrix-ed" inside mame, and if all ports are buttons, ie: no dipswitches, no analog inputs).  In windows mame the max physical inputs would be: 256 keyboard buttons + 4 mouse buttons + (32 joystick buttons * 4 joysticks per mame) = 388 input buttons.  Of course, no games or hardware comes close to either these limits.  ;)

Ah, there are a few games that aren't in MAME that have some crazy control requirements.

Sprint 8 - 24 analog inputs (8 wheels and 16 pedal), and at least 41 digital (32 for the shifters, and I am assuming 8 coin mechs, and one start button somewhere). Probably a few more, as I am sure it has a service switch and dip switches. I'll bet we never get that many analog inputs supported.

Tank 8 probably has a buttload too.


And by the way, this topic was a joke to illustrate the point that your cab is great no matter how many or how few buttons you have. One of my cabs has 2 and the other has 6

Title: Re:87 buttons REALLY neccesary??
Post by: Tiger-Heli on April 23, 2003, 07:01:31 am

Quote from: paigeoliver on April 23, 2003, 12:42:40 am

And by the way, this topic was a joke to illustrate the point that your cab is great no matter how many or how few buttons you have. One of my cabs has 2 and the other has 6

For future reference, it might be a good idea to end similar posts with j/k or "just kidding" so everyone else knows.

OTOH, it led to a lot of good discussion and I caught the sarcasm (see earlier post), so it makes up for the times I took stuff seriously and everyone else knew it was a joke. :D

Title: Re:87 buttons REALLY neccesary??
Post by: paigeoliver on April 23, 2003, 07:42:34 am

I put the big cheesy smile at the end of my post!
 ;D

Title: Re:87 buttons REALLY neccesary??
Post by: Tiger-Heli on April 23, 2003, 08:16:18 am

Quote from: paigeoliver on April 23, 2003, 07:42:34 am

I put the big cheesy smile at the end of my post!
 ;D

So you did!!!

Apparently everyone missed it, including me!!!

It was still a good discussion!  ;D

Title: Re:87 buttons REALLY neccesary??
Post by: CitznFish on April 23, 2003, 04:09:45 pm

Will a control panel even hold 87 buttons? ???  ;)

Title: Re:87 buttons REALLY neccesary??
Post by: paigeoliver on April 24, 2003, 06:03:28 am

Quote from: CitznFish on April 23, 2003, 04:09:45 pm

Will a control panel even hold 87 buttons? ???  ;)

Lets see, a Pac-Man panel is like 24 inches wide and 6 inches deep, and buttons take like 1.5" each (counting spacing), so that would be 64 buttons that could fit on a Pac-Man sized panel, so if it was any larger, then it could hold the full 87 ( rows of 16 each).

Title: Re:87 buttons REALLY neccesary??
Post by: Nikodemz on April 24, 2003, 11:42:18 am

Well this may be a little late in the thread but that little article you posted Tiger-Heli was very informative. If you have more of that kind of analysis and stuff somewhere on the web you should post a link. I'm in the planning stages of a cab myself and I have been contemplating the Player 3 and 4 buttons for a little while. Now it seems my intitial intuition was right and I can keep it to just 4 buttons and use those other inputs elsewhere.

Thanks a bunch.

-Niko

Title: Re:87 buttons REALLY neccesary??
Post by: Tiger-Heli on April 24, 2003, 12:01:04 pm

Quote from: Nikodemz on April 24, 2003, 11:42:18 am

Thanks a bunch.
-Niko

Thank you and you're welcome!!!

My FAQ novella is at

http://www.fraggersxtreme.com/arcadepanels/faq.htm#top

and the main page at

http://www.fraggersxtreme.com/arcadepanels/

has some good info, although it (like the whole project is still a WIP)

I also have a smattering of stuff at EmuAdvice  (Linked from www.mameworld.net) (keyboard hack info, controller images in a front end, etc.)

Title: Re:87 buttons REALLY neccesary??
Post by: Dartful Dodger on April 24, 2003, 01:25:22 pm

yes

Title: Re:87 buttons REALLY neccesary??
Post by: Luxury on April 24, 2003, 03:36:08 pm

oh man...what a great avatar!  thanks for the laugh dartful!   ;D

(http://www.kevin-carr.com/images/mkvkc.gif)