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Main => Everything Else => Topic started by: USSEnterprise on May 12, 2007, 11:56:26 am

Title: Require physics help
Post by: USSEnterprise on May 12, 2007, 11:56:26 am
One of the few extracurricular activities I am involved in at school is the Cardboard Canoe team. This involves competing in a series of races against other cardboard canoes. The first part of the competition is based on a 3 minute verbal and visual presentation (no powerpoint allowed.) I would like to, for this presentation, to find out how fast our boat is capable of going, based on the mass of the loaded boat, the mass of the paddle, and the amount of force being exerted on the water by the paddle. My estimates for these are:
mass of boat: 135kg
Mass of paddle: 5kg
Force being exerted on water: Approx 20 lbs or about 90N per stroke
There is only one paddler per boat, with a single, double sided paddle.
Title: Re: Require physics help
Post by: Grasshopper on May 12, 2007, 12:13:20 pm
You need a lot more information to do the calculation. For a start the effect of water and air resistance, both of which (I believe) go up exponentially with speed, and both of which are dependent to a degree on the shape of the boat.

Once the drag effect of air and water resistance equals the force exerted by the paddle, the canoe will stop accelerating. But calculating the speed at which that happens will involve a pretty advanced engineering calculation and a lot more variables than you've given.
Title: Re: Require physics help
Post by: Ed_McCarron on May 12, 2007, 12:30:04 pm
You need a lot more information to do the calculation. For a start the effect of water and air resistance, both of which (I believe) go up exponentially with speed, and both of which are dependent to a degree on the shape of the boat.

This is physics class.  Aren't we allowed to assume we're in that perfect physics world where theres no friction?

Seriously,  you'd need to know the mass of the paddler, water displaced, surface area under water, shape of the canoes frontal area,  temperature of the water, density of water at that temp, etc, etc, etc.

Tons of variables.

Which ones do they let you neglect?
Title: Re: Require physics help
Post by: shardian on May 12, 2007, 12:37:21 pm
That is more of a fluid mechanics problem. Definitely more complicated than a simple high school physics problem. I might have my fluids book sitting around - I'll look today.
Title: Re: Require physics help
Post by: USSEnterprise on May 12, 2007, 02:26:17 pm
Probably a nevermind then. One part of the presentation is to explain the "mathematics and physics" of the design. I need to figure some information out for that.
Title: Re: Require physics help
Post by: shorthair on May 12, 2007, 04:39:27 pm
You said what you'd like to do. What is the verbal presentation for?
Title: Re: Require physics help
Post by: SirPeale on May 12, 2007, 05:11:56 pm
If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---.  Make something really complicated up.  Go into all those details (weight of rower, air density, etc).  Betcha get an A.
Title: Re: Require physics help
Post by: danny_galaga on May 13, 2007, 04:24:08 am
One of the few extracurricular activities I am involved in at school is the Cardboard Canoe team. This involves competing in a series of races against other cardboard canoes. The first part of the competition is based on a 3 minute verbal and visual presentation (no powerpoint allowed.) I would like to, for this presentation, to find out how fast our boat is capable of going, based on the mass of the loaded boat, the mass of the paddle, and the amount of force being exerted on the water by the paddle. My estimates for these are:
mass of boat: 135kg
Mass of paddle: 5kg
Force being exerted on water: Approx 20 lbs or about 90N per stroke
There is only one paddler per boat, with a single, double sided paddle.

the mass of the paddle doesnt really matter. at least not as much as the surface area of the part of the paddle actually doing the work. dont know much about hydrodynamics, but you will definitely have to know how much drag there is. the drag is exponential. this is how it looks for air pressure: dynamic pressure = 1/2rho V squared. same kind of thing as kinetic energy= 1/2M V squared.
Title: Re: Require physics help
Post by: missioncontrol on May 13, 2007, 05:42:37 am
so if canoe A is leaving the docks at 8:45 and paddling 45 strokes per minute and canoe B which is 4 miles downstream leaves the docks at 10:17 and paddling at 28 strokes per minute, what time do they eat lunch?
Title: Re: Require physics help
Post by: USSEnterprise on May 13, 2007, 09:03:00 am
The answer is 42
Title: Re: Require physics help
Post by: USSEnterprise on May 13, 2007, 01:46:11 pm
Now I am trying to find the approximate drag of the boat using the following formula:
Fd = 1/2pb2ACd

Fd = force of drag
p = pressure of fluid
v = velocity relative to fluid
A =  reference area
Cd =Drag coefficient

What is the reference area?
Title: Re: Require physics help
Post by: rockhopper on May 13, 2007, 07:48:07 pm
The reference area is the frontal area presented. Ie for a sphere the frontal area would be a circle.

You should note, that the drag on a partially submerged hull will also depend on the bow wave produced. It takes energy to produce the bow wave, and this energy is effectively added to it's drag.

If you look up and decent fluids text on Froude numbers and their relation to drag it will help.  Note that any calcs you do will be a very rough estimate and won't give you anything useful.  I'd just concentrate on the theory behind the drag,  rather than the specific numbers.

Hope that helps
Title: Re: Require physics help
Post by: Zero_Hour on May 13, 2007, 09:08:54 pm
so if canoe A is leaving the docks at 8:45 and paddling 45 strokes per minute and canoe B which is 4 miles downstream leaves the docks at 10:17 and paddling at 28 strokes per minute, what time do they eat lunch?

Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.
Title: Re: Require physics help
Post by: Ed_McCarron on May 13, 2007, 10:47:53 pm
so if canoe A is leaving the docks at 8:45 and paddling 45 strokes per minute and canoe B which is 4 miles downstream leaves the docks at 10:17 and paddling at 28 strokes per minute, what time do they eat lunch?

Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.

Since we're on that topic...

(http://www.towelday.kojv.net/towelday.gif) (http://www.towelday.kojv.net)
Title: Re: Require physics help
Post by: danny_galaga on May 20, 2007, 01:39:34 am
Now I am trying to find the approximate drag of the boat using the following formula:
Fd = 1/2pb2ACd

Fd = force of drag
p = pressure of fluid
v = velocity relative to fluid
A =  reference area
Cd =Drag coefficient

What is the reference area?

you are going to have some difficulty seeing as how velocity isnt actually in the above formula  ;)

yes, i can see that the B is supposed to be velocity
Title: Re: Require physics help
Post by: Ed_McCarron on May 20, 2007, 06:39:49 pm
Now I am trying to find the approximate drag of the boat using the following formula:
Fd = 1/2pb2ACd

Fd = force of drag
p = pressure of fluid
v = velocity relative to fluid
A =  reference area
Cd =Drag coefficient

What is the reference area?

you are going to have some difficulty seeing as how velocity isnt actually in the above formula  ;)

yes, i can see that the B is supposed to be velocity

(http://www.tnschoolcounselor.org/findX.jpg)