Build Your Own Arcade Controls Forum
Main => Main Forum => Topic started by: Jeff AMN on March 29, 2007, 12:16:14 am
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A lot of us, especially our first time around, choose to use a TV as our display device. Either we're intimidated by the many issues that might arise with authentic monitors, or possibly money is our main barrier to entry. While the image isn't as sharp as you'll get with a monitor (either PC or arcade), you'll have excellent results by using a TV if you set it up properly.
I just finished setting up my TV settings for my cabinet. I'm using a 27" TV via component connection. Much of this will apply to those using s-video, but there's an extra couple of things to consider if you go component. Many ATi cards have s-video out, VGA out, and DVI out. In order to use your component input on your TV, you'll need a DVI to component adapter. However, make sure that the card you use isn't a DVI-D card, but rather a DVI-I card.
Difference between DVI-D and DVI-I:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v236/jar155/BYOAC/DVI.jpg)
My first card (Radeon 9800 Pro) was DVI-D, and in order to use the adapter, I had to order another card (Radeon 9600) that used a DVI-I output.
The adapter looks like this:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v236/jar155/BYOAC/DVItoComponent.jpg)
You'll need to set the pins on the adapter to output to 480i for proper output to your TV. The included instructions will show you how. Once you got your PC connected to the TV through the adapter and component cables, it's just a matter of setting some stuff up. You'll want to set your Windows resolution to 640x480. To do this, you need to do the following:
Right Click on Desktop --> Properties --> Settings --> Advanced --> Adapter --> List all modes --> 640x480 True Color (32 bit) 60 Hertz --> Apply --> OK
After that your desktop should be set to 648x480. You will also want to set it to your primary (or only) display. At this point, or even before, you should set your preferred front-end to 640x480 as well. Now, when you fire up games you'll notice that the edges of the screen are cropped or that the screen is way off of center. To fix this, simply change the MAME cfg (.ini) file. Set the resolution to 640x432. Yes, 640x432 is the correct resolution for component inputs. If you go higher, you'll get part of your image cropped due to overscan. Again, 640x432 is the correct resolution setting. Save the cfg file, fire up your front end, and enjoy the closest image you can get to an actual arcade monitor.
Example Pics:
Vertical Games look nice...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v236/jar155/BYOAC/DSC01800.jpg)
So do horizontal ones.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v236/jar155/BYOAC/DSC01802.jpg)
Close up shots.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v236/jar155/BYOAC/DSC01801.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v236/jar155/BYOAC/DSC01803.jpg)
Any bluriness can be attributed to my lack of a tripod and poor photography skills.
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Does the 640x432 apply only to component?
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Does the 640x432 apply only to component?
As far as I know, yes. Through S-Video you're best off staying at 640x480 for your resolution.
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...and remember...I have a VGA to COMPONENT VIDEO converter for sale at the BST forum!
:angel:
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I'm glad you're happy with the way your TV looks, but please don't call it "almost arcade perfect", those shots look nothing like the real thing and it's misleading to people who don't know better. If you're on a budget a TV is a great way to go (my first cab had one too) but it's never going to actually look like an arcade monitor (unless you're in Europe with a SCART connector).
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I'm glad you're happy with the way your TV looks, but please don't call it "almost arcade perfect", those shots look nothing like the real thing and it's misleading to people who don't know better. If you're on a budget a TV is a great way to go (my first cab had one too) but it's never going to actually look like an arcade monitor (unless you're in Europe with a SCART connector).
The pics make things look MUCH worse than they do in person. They look very nice, and as close to the arcade as you're going to get without a true arcade monitor. Most passerby observers are never going to know that it's a TV. Only enthusiasts are really going to know.
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I'm glad you're happy with the way your TV looks, but please don't call it "almost arcade perfect", those shots look nothing like the real thing and it's misleading to people who don't know better. If you're on a budget a TV is a great way to go (my first cab had one too) but it's never going to actually look like an arcade monitor (unless you're in Europe with a SCART connector).
How about not assuming you know what his setup looks like without being there. I don't think what he said was misleading. Technology changes all the time, you never know. I think he said the pics don't do the actual picture justice as well. Criticizing an opinion is pretty senseless.
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What are your MAME settings? I hope you're not using direct3d or ddraw+hardware stretch because both of those introduce scaling/anti-aliasing issues which look bad on a TV (but OK on a PC monitor). Using ddraw, hardware stretch = off, and switchres = on usually provides the best image.
I've come to the conclusion that it's pretty pointless to make judgements on display devices from pics posted. There are just too many variables: camera, photography skills, correct video settings in MAME, video adjustments on display device, etc. I would definitely say TV/component input is better than S-video/TV, but I do think 'near arcade perfect' is a stretch. In either case (s-video or component to TV) you are converting a low resolution video signal to some constant analog signal so there will always be imperfections. To make matters worse, many TVs with component inputs just convert the component signal to S-Video anyway:
From http://www.videoessentials.com/notes_on_video.php
In order to sell TV sets in the DVD age, a component input must be provided. It is often accomplished by converting the incoming component signal to S-Video, then sending that signal to their standard decoder chip. Believe it or not, this is a common practice, not only among TV set manufacturers, but in several video up converters. There is a picture quality loss going from component to S-Video then
back to component inside the old processor chip
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From http://www.videoessentials.com/notes_on_video.php
In order to sell TV sets in the DVD age, a component input must be provided. It is often accomplished by converting the incoming component signal to S-Video, then sending that signal to their standard decoder chip. Believe it or not, this is a common practice, not only among TV set manufacturers, but in several video up converters. There is a picture quality loss going from component to S-Video then
back to component inside the old processor chip
I've seen that article in the past. It's now almost 6 years old. I can understand "bridging" of existing product lines in order to move at the pace of the marketplace, but I highly doubt that this practice is used on sets built in the last few years. The way technology is moving, there have most likely been a couple dozen cheap chipsets developed since then to do everything properly.
I'd like to remind folks that up until a couple of years ago (and it happens more today than is talked about), most were using S-video and even composite monitors in their cabinets and were pretty happy about it. The biggest quality difference between NTSC video and RGB is color definition and purity. Being able to increase the quality of both of these is going to get you much closer to the arcade counterpart. Are you going to to get exact resolutions? No. But that doesn't mean that you won't get a very colorful and well-defined image that only the "purists" are likely to discern from the real thing.
Anything that can be made to do a good job with off-the-shelf parts and minimal configuration is probably worth taking a detailed look at.
Jeff, get a tripod and manually focus the camera. Reducing the exposure a little might cut down on the blur a little too. ;)
RandyT
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Jeff, get a tripod and manually focus the camera. Reducing the exposure a little might cut down on the blur a little too. ;)
RandyT
Another trick I found is to set MAME's 'pause_brightness' from .65 to 1 and then pause the game to take the picture. This removes any game motion blur.
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I'm glad you're happy with the way your TV looks, but please don't call it "almost arcade perfect", those shots look nothing like the real thing and it's misleading to people who don't know better.
You apparently have an arcade monitor. I don't think you should judge his results that you have not seen in person. Take a picture of an arcade monitor and see how great that looks.
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I'm glad you're happy with the way your TV looks, but please don't call it "almost arcade perfect", those shots look nothing like the real thing and it's misleading to people who don't know better. If you're on a budget a TV is a great way to go (my first cab had one too) but it's never going to actually look like an arcade monitor (unless you're in Europe with a SCART connector).
haha im in europe armed with a scart connector ,this pleases me.
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You apparently have an arcade monitor. I don't think you should judge his results that you have not seen in person. Take a picture of an arcade monitor and see how great that looks.
I don't need to see it in person, I know what they both look like, I've run both personally. Not the same thing. I'm sure it looks great, and I'm glad he's happy with it, but people who are new to this shouldn't think a TV will look arcade perfect because you use component in. It's not the same thing, they do not look alike. It's a perfectly acceptable solution for a home cab, I just objected to the language since IMHO it's misleading.
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I don't need to see it in person,
I thought you referred to his pictures here:
those shots look nothing like the real thing
I've run both personally
So you've used a TV. Did it have component input like the more recent TVs or did it use composite or s-video? Did you use a quality DVD-I video adaptor? Did you have mame set-up the way he does? Its misleading for you to make a blanket statement about his quality unless you have either seen his output in person or have used the same hardware and settings that he has used.
No doubt its not arcade monitor quality, but he never said it was.
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how much of a difference did you notice compared to s-video. ive tested my tv on s-video in the past and i honestly thought it looked great. i might grab one of those up too if it helps build the arcade monitor feel.
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Heh, it's hard to imagine anybody being happy with composite connections, but technology does advance so maybe that was fine in the stone age. ;)
tist - There's not that much difference between S-vid and component. From RF to composite is a huge difference. From composite to s-vid is a big difference. from s-vid to component is a noticable difference (especially with color bleed) but a lot of people would be happy with the s-vid.
A few years back, my favorite setup was using a scan converter that output s-video. There was slight color bleed that would've been gone with component video, but that looked pretty sweet because the scan converter actually resized gfx to 480i and was able to upscale or convert gfx using low resolutions. Selecting 640x432 as your MAME resolution, especially when filtering the gfx, tends to make it look less blocky or sharp. Being able to output 240x224 and letting the scan converter handle the upscaling otoh really sharpens up the gfx.
Wasn't there a thread not too long back regarding the component dongle and outputting @ native resolutions with the 480i sampling done in drivers someplace?
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Sorry for the stir I caused.
When I said "almost arcade perfect" I meant to convey my satisfaction, not to actually imply that my setup looked exactly like the real deal. However, it could EASILY be mistaken for an arcade monitor by casual players or less nitpicky types. Sure, I can tell the difference, but it really is minor.
I'm an AV nut too, so I notice those things.
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I have never been able to get the 640x432 to ever work on my mame system. I can go in my mame.ini file and set all display settings to 640x432, but it still looks like it is 640x480? I use the Radeon Cataylist control center. I have never seen 640x432 an option. Maybe that is why I can't get it to work.
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how much of a difference did you notice compared to s-video. ive tested my tv on s-video in the past and i honestly thought it looked great. i might grab one of those up too if it helps build the arcade monitor feel.
Personally, i think it makes a big difference but how 'big' is subjective. If you're happy with s-video then why bother? But if your curious, and have a component in on your TV, and DVI or out on your video card it's pretty cheap to check for yourself (you just need the converter which you can find cheap on newegg and a spare component cable).
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I actaully am fine with S-Video. See I play gun games so my lightgun goes great with S-Video. I just wish I didn't have overscan. Don't want to chage it thorugh the TV though because I have other games that look fine on it.
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Oops, never mind.
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Sorry for the stir I caused....Sure, I can tell the difference, but it really is minor.
I'm an AV nut too, so I notice those things.
Don't be sorry, you are absolutely correct and this guide is very helpful. I am a child when it comes to configuring video settings so this is great. Back in 2003 I had had trouble getting everything configured right: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=4531.0 (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=4531.0)
In the end, I was VERY impressed with the quality.
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I just started building my cab and noticed the TV I purchased (used on Craigslist) had component inputs. It's hooked up to s-video now, but I guess it's wothe the $10 to get the adapter and cables to find out how it looks with component.
One question I have, and forgive me for being at work and not in front of my cab. Can you modify the Mame32 configs to 640x432, the same as you would for mame? Can it be edited from notepad? Or can I simply change it to 640x432 in the gui?
:dunno
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Sorry for the stir I caused.
When I said "almost arcade perfect" I meant to convey my satisfaction, not to actually imply that my setup looked exactly like the real deal.
Actually Aurich is talking through his arse!! and you have nothing to be sorry for. I work with real arcade monitors every single day. I can tell you that your images, even in your photographs, look a damned sight better than most arcade monitors do in real world use.
The truth is that in an arcade, most monitors are not perfectly adjusted and pin sharp. Mostly because we don't have the sort of time it would take to do that. The fact that Aurich has an arcade monitor that no doubt he has tweaked to perfection, makes little or no difference to that statement. In fact Aurich's perfectly sharp tweaked arcade monitor is more inaccurate to the monitors in the real world than your TV is.
Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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On my regular TV (purchased 1999), I've always used component for DVDs and Svideo for Satellite. I've always wondered what the big deal about component was given that my two images looked pretty much identical. If it really is just converting the component to Svideo right inside the connector plate, that would explain a lot.