I hope I am way off on this and it has a very high resolution, though.Fortunately you are way off on this! The stick is a full analog solution. In fact the internal resolution is so high that it has to be divided by 16 before sending to the PC to comply with the standard for analog gamepads. Movement is totally smooth all across the range. The 9X9 matrix is only invoked for the purposes of assigning digital maps. When a digital map is not used (or any cells in the map are assigned as analog) then the stick is a high-resolution analog flight stick. I will think of some wording to add to the webpages to make this clear.
I hope I am way off on this and it has a very high resolution, though.Fortunately you are way off on this! The stick is a full analog solution.
Do you have to use a restrictor plate to use 4/8 way? Or is that just for a more realistic feel?
Do you have to use a restrictor plate to use 4/8 way? Or is that just for a more realistic feel?
Some answers:
Console support: At the moment these can't be used as full analog sticks on X-Box / PSX. This is something in the works though. There are raw analog outputs on the I/O connector and these are for plugging into a new interface board which will support this. No timescale on this though.
btw, the link for more info on the wire harness on this page (http://www.ultimarc.com/JShopServer/section.php?xSec=10) redirects to the home page.
I have a couple questions for you. I'm pretty new to this and looking to build my first control panel.Welcome aboard!
How does the transition to 4-8way work. Do you simple just change some settings, or is there a physical change you have to make.
Also how would you connect it to an IPAC intereface if its usb?
That does help alot, one more thing. I would probably hook it up with usb, but I would still need to get an ipac for the buttons right? What I'm wanting to build is just a small control panel with the stick and maybe 3 buttons and perhaps a trackball. So I would still need to connect the buttons to the ipac right no other way around that. Basicly I would have only 3 connections to the ipac since the trackball and stick would most likely go into seperate usb ports.If I understand correctly, You will not need a ipac.
Forgot the p1 and coin buttons so really around 7 buttons.
That does help alot, one more thing. I would probably hook it up with usb, but I would still need to get an ipac for the buttons right? What I'm wanting to build is just a small control panel with the stick and maybe 3 buttons and perhaps a trackball. So I would still need to connect the buttons to the ipac right no other way around that. Basicly I would have only 3 connections to the ipac since the trackball and stick would most likely go into seperate usb ports.If I understand correctly, You will not need a ipac.
Forgot the p1 and coin buttons so really around 7 buttons.
If you use the joystick with usb, you can hook up 8 buttons to the joystick and windows will see it as a gamepad with 8 buttons. So it looks like you could totally build a arcade cabinet with these and no need for a ipac or keyboard encoder, If you use the usb to hook it up.
Whan the I/O port is in output mode, two of the wires are an analog voltage. X and Y axes. These wires could be connected to an external analog interface.
Escher, if you had clicked the link Andy provided at the top of this thread, you would have seen this...
So it looks like it would only mount to a metal control panel. Does it work with wood?
Long Handles:http://www.ultimarc.com/JShopServer/section.php?xSec=10
To fit the optional long handle: Remove the PCB by unscrewing the 4 screws. Lift off the magnet assembly from the end of the shaft. Remove the E-Ring. CARE: we advise to avoid spring-loaded parts being lost, place a cloth over the joystick when removing the E-ring. Swap the shafts over and re-assemble.
Few questions:
- Do you include all restrictor plates in the order. A subset? None?
- Go above 4 controllers per system? Not sure if this is a Windows limitation or not
- Include the functionality of the 4/8 physical change as the mag-stik in the ultra-stik?
- Have a rotary function for the games that need optical rotaries?
Now we just need a hollow shaft for the joystick so we can light up the ball with leds and a hole in the pcb or some other way of making the joystick into a optical rotary joystick. I think then the joystick will be perfect.
Rotary: The design of the stick is such that a rotary fuction would be extremely difficult to achieve. I am thinking about it though.
...eliminate the need for a dedicated 4-way ..... the need to buy a keyboard encoder.
So Andy, whats the chance for a top button on a ball top similar to the guy who made some great looking buttons for the wico leaf switchs years ago? Could you get a hollow shaft? Or would the design not allow that?
with the new push / pull spinners coming out... then this joystick... then 6 buttons could be the perfect combo for a cocktail table or a small arcade.... almost every game (minus trackball) at your fingertips!
Does anyone know of the existence of a review of this joystick yet? I await more info. . .
I can see two problems with using these sticks as a 4-way:
Hardware restriction vs. digital restriction
A digitally-restricted analog or 49-way stick will play better than a standard 8-way on 4-way games....
Interestingly enough, the actuation of a properly adjusted 8-way digital stick looks exactly like the above 8-way analog map.
So if you fit the 4/8 way restrictor plate you do get a proper mechanically restricted 4-way joystick that can also easily be switched to 8-way operation. The only possible downside is that some games work better with a circular restrictor in 8-way mode.Personally, I would rather have the throw be relatively short and the stick be unrestricted than fiddle with adding a restrictor plate, but that's just b/c I share Kremmit's lazyness.
I can certainly think of reasons why you might want to program custom maps and not just make do with the three maps detailed in Randy's post.You are slightly missing the point. Randy is not saying "These are the three maps you should use with the Ultra-Stik." Randy is saying "These are the three maps ALREADY in use when you use an analog stick to play a digital stick game."
Certain 8-way games work better if there is a bias either towards or against the diagonals.Valid point, in theory at least - I can't think of a real-world example other than Tron, which is not exactly the same - you want 4-way motion except for the extreme diagonals.
Also, you might want to alter the diameter of the deadzone.Which probably 90% of software designed to work at all with an analog stick already allows you to set.
That being said, I'm puzzled by the approach Andy has taken with the software. It seems over complicated to me. For 99% of digital games you could achieve everything you want just by altering three parameters:Already a MAME parameter.
- diameter of deadzone
But this setting alone won't get you a map that works for Tron - well, actually it probably would - something like 12 degrees or 16 degrees maybe.
- Angular size of diagonals (set to zero for 4-way games)
But wouldn't MAME handle this automatically without any map required?
- 45 degree rotated mode for games like Q*Bert. This could simply be an on/off toggle
Here's the thing: if you're giong to be throwing restrictor plates and changing it from a four-way to an eight-way with these plates, why even spend the $60 on these sticks?Because you also get the ability to play analog games on them like Sinistar or EPROM or Star Wars, that you can't play on a digital stick.
Why not just get a regular P360Because you have to disassemble the stick and flip the actuator to go from 4-way to 8-way.
or one of those Ultimarcs that can switch (don't know the name off-hand, sorry Randy).or the 49-way stick and a GP-Wiz49, or
I thought the whole point of these sticks was to have the versatility without having to switch around hardware or add extra sticks. If you're using the stick to replace a "specific" control - then maybe, but otherwise I don't see the point in "plate-switching".I agree. The point is for the purists that want a restricted stick for true 4-way FEEL.
And also, while you can switch from 4-to-8 way, I don't think you can remove the restrictor itself easily for full analog range. That's more or less what I gathered from the information.Ideally, the restrictor should only come into play for 4-way games, and allow full motion for 8-way or analog operation. That said, I know my Prodigies have a square restictor in 8-way mode (diamond in 4-way) and it is noticeable but doesn't really affect my gameplay.
But hey, I love the joystick choices we have now. Years ago it was basically just Supers.Gotta agree with that.
Well as I don't currently own an analogue joystick, I've never explored MAME's support for using analogue joysticks in place of digital ones. If as you say those parameters are already built in to MAME then that's great. However, we shouldn't get too MAME-centric. Some people will want to use these joysticks with consoles, other emulators, PC games, and non-Windows OSes.We aren't getting too MAME -centric.
Interestingly enough, the actuation of a properly adjusted 8-way digital stick looks exactly like the above 8-way analog map.
Actually that's not true because the dead zone won't be circular.
Also, bear in mind this joystick can be connected to a standard Ipac and thus be used with programs or operating systems that don't support analogue or even USB.I haven't studied that element of it in detail. Can it be hooked up to both the I-PAC and USB together and select which way to output on a command-line basis?
I don't know enough about consoles to know which ones would support any USB analog stick, but even if it did, I think it is asking a lot to expect people to plug the stick into their PC, enter a particular mapping into it, and then plug it into their console, if it would remember it (which I think it will).
...
That being said, I have some real concerns as to whether any external mapping system, outside of simple dead-zone control, will have an effect on a true analog stick where, theoretically, actuation is equal in all directions of movement. Chopping up an already excellent range of actuation into coarse blocks and then forcing the controller to guess the intentions of the player is, well, puzzling at best. Especially when that information is already available with full accuracy.
To explain a little further, there are very simple maps that, theoretically, are the best maps available for any analog joystick that offers equal actuation of the sensors in every direction, as is usually their goal. Coincidentally, these maps are already being used in any game where its programmer has even the slightest clue. They are are as follows:(http://www.groovygamegear.com/tutorials/analog.jpg)
I haven't studied that element of it in detail. Can it be hooked up to both the I-PAC and USB together and select which way to output on a command-line basis?
The problem is mame is not well written to translate analog to digital*. Mame looks at each axis separately; the value of the other axis is not looked at during the analog 2 digital translation. This makes Mame's look more like the following:So if I am looking at this chart correctly, MAME is using a (very crude) 8-way map for the A-D conversion, even in 4-way games, correct?(http://www.urebelscum.speedhost.com/images/MameAnalog2Digital.PNG)
Depending on "a2d_deadzone" and other settings, it could look more like the first or the second (I left in the right's lines for closer comparison), or imagine a larger deadzone instead of the shown smaller.
While well written PC games don't need the analog to digital mapping in UltraStik360, mame needs it badly.Okay, I did not realize this.
Granted, and that can be useful.
The mapping also "puts the controls in the users' hands" instead of having to use whatever the well (or poorly) written game mapping has.
There are finer ways to remap than with a grid, but they aren't easy to do in practice, especially while being changeable & fast on joystick hardware.Actually, my point was that there was no point downgrading to a 9x9 grid if MAME is already using the data from a 256x256 grid. Expecting a user to input 65536 entries into the map would be silly, so this is a good compromise.
Mame could use an analog to digital go over (but needs to be neater than I code, and not conflict with analog to digital "button" convertions to be accepted).So it would appear.
Randy might well be correct in that in 8-way mode there is not a great deal of value in mapping when connected only via USB. But that is missing the point because the ability to change from 4 to 8 way is the essence. It may well be that many users never create any custom maps at all, just flip from the supplied 4-way to the supplied 8-way.
Randy might well be correct in that in 8-way mode there is not a great deal of value in mapping when connected only via USB.I believe that Randy's point was there with a standard PC game, there was not a great deal of value in mapping in either 8-way or 4-way mode when connected via USB. But that was before Robin clarified how MAME does (or rather doesn't) translate analog to digital.
But that is missing the point because the ability to change from 4 to 8 way is the essence. It may well be that many users never create any custom maps at all, just flip from the supplied 4-way to the supplied 8-way.Agreed.
Agreed, except for console games, not Windows OS, unless you are working on these solutions.
I have no plans to enable a mechanical switch for changing maps, as this is better done programmatically. It can already be done in Mamewah for example on a "per game" basis.
On the subject of restrictors I have a sneaking suspicion that I might make the circular restrictor a standard fitment. I am waiting feedback really, on whether the standard travel is too long for non-analog games. The problem of course is anything to do with joysticks is very subjective, which is why a design intention was to make it as configurable as possible.I would be interested to hear feedback on the throw and spring return rate of these.
Makes sense.
I chose a cell-type map rather than angular for simplicity and less real-time processing being required on the stick itself (eg large look-up tables).
Interestingly, the number of cells in the matrix and also the spacing between cells are programatically adjustable, although the current software does not support this in the GUI. I might consider adding this support if there is interest.I think Kremmit had a very good point that an oddxodd map works better for 8-way mappings and an evenxeven map would work better for 4-way mappings.
Another point of interest: using a restrictor plate on the stick does not compromise the analog resolution. The internals of the stick use a resolution of 16384 X 16384 so reducing this to, say, half the travel and changing the scale factor (which is done by the mapping software) still maintains a huge resolution advantage over what Windows sees.You could have left a 16384x16384 matrix in the GUI and then people could REALLY create their own custom maps!!! :cheers:
Which if the gaming software is MAME we now now that it does not do.Randy might well be correct in that in 8-way mode there is not a great deal of value in mapping when connected only via USB. But that is missing the point because the ability to change from 4 to 8 way is the essence. It may well be that many users never create any custom maps at all, just flip from the supplied 4-way to the supplied 8-way.If this is is what I was perceived to have stated, then I offer my apologies. I must not have made my point very well. It was more along the lines of "With an analog joystick that has an optimal 8-way configuration and range of actuation that so closely resembles that of a standard 8-way (which cannot benefit from digital restriction attempts, e.g. 8-way to 4-way), how is it that the addition of maps to the same physical mechanics can make a difference in that conversion? Especially if the gaming software already divides the 256x256 map properly.
Regardless, Urebel pointed out some rather interesting (and slightly disturbing) limitations to the MAME code which provides a partial answer to that question. Based on what he has written, mapping must be provided with an analog stick in order to be properly used with MAME, as analog sticks are very poorly handled by MAMEs 8 and 4-way conversion code. So mapping will certainly correct for that particular issue.That's the way I understand it.
The question I still have is related to the rest of the point I had attempted to make, and that is; now that the translation is more along the lines of what is optimal (the analog maps I drew), how does that specifically make it a better 4-way than a switch based 8-way using a 4-way actuator (which provides an actuation map very similar to the optimal 4-way map, yet historically do not work very well?)Okay, you are talking about something like a Happ Super with the 4-way actuator, and or the Perfect 360 with the 4-way actuator, copared to the Ultra-Stik using a 4-way map, correct?
Ultimately, this is the aspect I am most interested in understanding and hearing about from the early adopters.I'm most interested in the physical feel (throw and return) of the sticks.
Is it a Hall-Effect stick?
that balltop looks akmost metallic? and from the photo it looks large. Ithought the balltop would be the exact same as the J-stick.
Am I just not seeing these photos right or something?
Is it a Hall-Effect stick?
...and what's it use, hall-effect sensors?
Interestingly, the number of cells in the matrix and also the spacing between cells are programatically adjustable, although the current software does not support this in the GUI. I might consider adding this support if there is interest.
The only solution I can see is to either a) use an odd # of rows for some grid mappings, and an even number for others; or b) use a much higher resolution grid...
I think Kremmit had a very good point that an oddxodd map works better for 8-way mappings and an evenxeven map would work better for 4-way mappings.
Another point of interest: using a restrictor plate on the stick does not compromise the analog resolution. The internals of the stick use a resolution of 16384 X 16384 so reducing this to, say, half the travel and changing the scale factor (which is done by the mapping software) still maintains a huge resolution advantage over what Windows sees.
On the subject of restrictors I have a sneaking suspicion that I might make the circular restrictor a standard fitment.
(http://cathaus.org/~thaddeus/throw.jpg)Wow, restrictor plate is more than required here for 4/8 way games. Throw is more than large without restrictors. Otherwise for analog mode restrictors aren't required.
T-Stick, Mag-Stick, Omni-Stick, Prodigy, Suzo 500, MCA joysticks: VERY short throw. Excellent for 4-way games (Pac-Man, etc.)T-Stik for 4 way games? Are you sure? What with precision?
Wow, restrictor plate is more than required here for 4/8 way games. Throw is more than large without restrictors. Otherwise for analog mode restrictors aren't required.
So, using a utility like SirPoonga
The perspective on the photo may be a little misleading. The top of the stick travels maybe half an inch in any direction. It's not short by any means, but it also didn't feel excessive to me. I had more issues with releasing the stick and getting a little bounce (which I think the heavier springs would fix) than I did the throw.
I have no plans to enable a mechanical switch for changing maps, as this is better done programmatically. It can already be done in Mamewah for example on a "per game" basis.
Andy
Can you get anywhere without typing c:/
About the I-PAC mode, the reason was simply versatility. When the stick is first plugged in, it always sends un-mapped analog data via USB and mapped directional data to the I-PAC, if connected.Mapped directional data using which map (more below)?
As an aside, it is not possible to return to this mode once a map has been downloaded via USB, because once downloaded, mapped data is sent to both USB and the I-PAC, that's something to be added as a choice in a later software version.I didn't follow this either - are you just saying there is no way to get back to having it send pure analog via USB and mapped data to the I-PAC once I download a map, but I could still get back to pure analog (with maybe the I-PAC being confused until I download a new map.
Anyway I digress. The way it is designed, you can use it if you wish as an alternative to a P360. Just drops in. This opens up other application areas. Don't forget that there are other uses for joysticks than MAME. The cost/benefit of adding this capability works favorably as the cost is very low. Incidentally that I/O connector would have to be fitted on the PCB regardless since that is how the chip is originally programmed.This part I also understand. I mentioned apps that can't use an analog joystick. Not sure if you mean as a replacement for an 8-way only (or 4-way only) P360 - more on that below.
I have already had one user mention that he will always use the stick in the "as shipped" setup, with analog via USB and directions via I-PAC (which he already has) because he is not particularly bothered about setting up maps for all his games. He will never need to download any maps at all, as analog games will use analog via USB and digital will use directional via the I-PAC.This is what I was getting at above. What map is loaded by default? I am ASSuMEing it will be 8-way. If said user only plays 8-way and analog games, then this should be fine. Otherwise I see big problems with the 4-way games - well not big but the same as using an 8-way digital stick to play them, no benefit.
Your wish list makes a lot of sense. Some considerable challenges there though!I never said it would be easy. (Wouldn't be much fun if it was!!!)
Feedback? I think feedback it great as well as needed to some respect. I wouldn
[I'd like to interject for a moment. I don't think you're reading the constructive criticism as such. Personally from an engineering standpoint, hearing people question design considerations as well as making wishlist is a big bonus.
If I may take the unpopular side for a moment... I am a big believer in constructive criticism. I live for it on my jukebox. But is his product announcement thread really the place for it? When the thread first went up, my first thought is "I've got to get me some of these!" Now after reading three pages of criticism and suggestions, it seems to be more prudent for me to sit back and wait for v2.0.
The problem is mame is not well written to translate analog to digital*. Mame looks at each axis separately; the value of the other axis is not looked at during the analog 2 digital translation. This makes Mame's look more like the following...So if I am looking at this chart correctly, MAME is using a (very crude) 8-way map for the A-D conversion, even in 4-way games, correct?
I-PAC Mode: ... you gain one less level of computation (more on that below)....
Digital games ... in USB mode, the stick
It is not unreasonable to ask that a CLI be included in the next version.
The UltraStik can be mapped from the CLI already. From the start AFAIK. (See posts by SirPoonga and around that area.)After some further research, you are 100% correct about the CLI already included (http://www.ultimarc.com/ultrastik_prog.html) :cheers:
So either it's not unreasonable to ask that it remains in, or it's unreasonable to ask that it's (re)added. ;)
Surely you are not saying that in USB mode, once I download a map I am stuck in mapped mode and can't get back to pure analog? (That would be a pretty serious drawback if you could play Star Wars and then PacMan, but then you had to unplug the stick to get back to Star Wars???)N0. You can revert to analog via USB by downloading an all-analog map. But once this is done, the directional (I-PAC) interface will also be receiving the same map, ie no directions will be sent as it's an analog map, until you again download a digital map.
Actually, if you go back in time, you'll see that the discussion about potential problems and/or upgrades started in a different thread, but were MOVED INTO this thread by a moderator who, I'm sure, meant well.
Anyone else agree about the Sinistar X? Make your voices heard...
Ah, that makes sense. Wouldn't have been my choice, but if Andy and the mods are happy then all is well.
If I may take the unpopular side for a moment... I am a big believer in constructive criticism. I live for it on my jukebox. But is his product announcement thread really the place for it?
Actually, if you go back in time, you'll see that the discussion about potential problems and/or upgrades started in a different thread, but were MOVED INTO this thread by a moderator who, I'm sure, meant well.
A rubber spider add-on for Sinistar would make me drool...Anyone else agree about the Sinistar X? Make your voices heard...
N0. You can revert to analog via USB by downloading an all-analog map. But once this is done, the directional (I-PAC) interface will also be receiving the same map, ie no directions will be sent as it's an analog map, until you again download a digital map.Okay - I saw the all-analog map, but wasn't sure why you would use it?
The option to "force analog via USB" will be added in the next software version. The stick firmware already supports this function.
Setting the angles, increasing or decreasing the deadzone size, changing the shape of the deadzone, or doing crazy things like making curvy lines or difference angles between left/upleft than for right/upright would be nice. Are they needed? Do they make that much of a difference than a 9x9 grid? Are they possible to be assigned from the computer on hardware fast enough to do the calculations while cheap enough for retail?
In talking to Andy a little while ago, he mentioned that using angles instead of a grid would be much more computation intensive than possible for the hardware used.
Andy is that still true?
Couple of random points which I don't think have been mentioned...
Firstly, a major reason to use the IPAC output (as far as I can tell) would be to use the joysticks along with the IPAC console converters. The only question this leads me to wonder is whether the stick must be programmed with an 8-way map via USB prior to using with the console...I assume this is the case.
No. Any cells in the grid which are assigned as analog are "transparent" to the 256 X 256 resolution. So if all cells are assigned as analog you get 256X256 across the board.
Are you saying the stick starts in 256x256 via USB, but then when you select a map the stick reverts to 9x9
Okay - I saw the all-analog map, but wasn't sure why you would use it?
...
Are you saying the stick starts in 256x256 via USB, but then when you select a map the stick reverts to 9x9 and then your only analog option is back to 9x9 analog. If so, I think it would be good to add a "no mapping" option in which case the stick reverts to 256x256 mode.
A rubber spider add-on for Sinistar would make me drool...
I think another major reason may be the problem when using or enabling joysticks and a trackball at the same time. i.e. snake pit
The only question is if this can be adapted to Tron usage...heheh...I don't see why not - in fact you could have custom maps to do so - one user might prefer the standard 4-way map with only the the one extreme point in each corner of the 9x9 grid mapped to diagonals, another might prefer 4 of the squares in each corner, another 9 of the squares.
best you can hope for is a throw that is a little short for analog games (but playable)
The only question is if this can be adapted to Tron usage...heheh...I don't see why not - in fact you could have custom maps to do so - one user might prefer the standard 4-way map with only the the one extreme point in each corner of the 9x9 grid mapped to diagonals, another might prefer 4 of the squares in each corner, another 9 of the squares.
All in all, the feel is similar to an Atari logo digital sticks, what with the same pivot ball construction and same height handle. I think the restriction was opened up a little for a longer throw, but otherwise, mechanically speaking, they're pretty much the same. That puts the throw shorter than a Happ analog, and way shorter than an Afterburner.
My first impressions on throw:
Playable in Term2 without restrictor, not playable with.
Too long in digital games without restrictor, playable with.
My first impressions on throw:
Playable in Term2 without restrictor, not playable with.
Too long in digital games without restrictor, playable with.
Sorry for perhaps stating the obvious....but did you select the restrictor type in the software? If so, is Term2 unplayable with restrictor as it is just too sensitive?
One interesting thing--this is basically a j-stick with a custom PCB underneath. The magnet is held on the standard j-stick shaft only by its own magnetic force, so should easily be adaptable to any stick with a steel shaft of the same diameter, just by popping it on, as long as you can maintain the proper centering and spacing when mounting the pcb as well. I will have to try mounting it on my Tron prototype this weekend... ;)
I wonder if we could use a slightly longer hollow shaft (same total length as old shaft+magnet) and drill out the center of the magnet? Then we could slide the magnet onto the hollow shaft and run wires up to a newly installed led in the knob or maybe we could use the same length shaft (but hollowed out) and slide the magnet onto that shaft? Would the pcb be able to compensate for the difference in the space between itself and the magnet?
I just had another idea. Since the magnetic field drops off so quickly why not a shorter shaft and an open sided extension? The extension will have a ring at the top for going onto the shaft and a solid metal bottom for the magnet to attach to. The open sides will allow wires to be run up into the shaft.
drill out the center of the magnet?No chance of this unfortunately! Some interesting ideas though.
howdy all,
as i understand it, if you use these sticks without an ipac, then it is recognised as a gamepad by mame. my question is are most other emulators compatible with gamepads as well, as this could also be a factor in deciding on purchasing these sticks. apologies if this has been brought up already.
cheers
Like a $5000 cabinet made of MDF is a hot seller?
This also works great for better control on other analog games.
It SHOULD be a technology added to those thumb sticks on gamepads... as then they
would actually be somewhat controlable and precise.
Id bet a Sini-Stik outsells any other custom controller out there.Come on, ANY controller? There are a lot of controllers that are usable in a much wider range of games, and let's face it, the extra parts add cost to the setup, whatever your base controller is. Just adding a molded part to the mix (the spider) is what scares most people off, as far as production goes on a small run. That said, if you can come up with a list of buyers, I'm sure someone will be willing to produce these--if they can justify the cost of production versus the number of potential sales.
Not that I'm going to make one...but it seems some enterprising individual could make a Sinistar spider that would go on TOP of the stick (using the mounting plate holes) that would be pretty much universal to any stick, including anything Happ or Ultimarc makes--analog or digital. There might need to be different center inserts to make it work, but very doable.
However, I'm not that confident something like that would be a hot seller, which I'm sure is why it doesn't exist. It's a very scecialized item that needs either a dedicated stick or manual installation every time, which kind of minimizes its appeal.
But as for the Ultrastick, I can't wait to get my hands on one! I liked the GP49way combo, but the ability to go full analog is flippin SWEET! The only question is if this can be adapted to Tron usage...heheh...
this may be a dumb question but i didn't understand it completely. do you have to reload the right mapping every time you switch to a game that requires it or is it done automaticly after you load all the files into it? what i am getting at is what would i have to do if i just played donkey kong then i decied to play street fighter. do i just pick the game and go or is there some process i have to follow between games.btw as if you cant tell i am not a techy kinda guy some please dumb it WAY down.
thanks for the info minwah. does mamewah do the programming automatically?
thanks for the info minwah. does mamewah do the programming automatically?
Ack! One of my Ultrastik 360's stopped working.Does it show up in the Hardware List in Device Manager. If so, try removing it and then plugging it back in.
this thread is way to confusing for me. lets say you have the controller mapped 8 way with no restrictor plate. In a 4 way game it wont see the diagnals so you get a dead zone. If your front end switches the mapping from 8 to 4 on the fly and you are not using a restrictor plate how is the situation any better. the dead zone is still there.
joys are getting to complicated :(
any chance this will have switching 4 way to 8 way on the fly like the tstick only without the clicking. that would really rock. maybe a revision down the road. one can only hope.Why?
Having played with it a bit in all modes, I would even consider having two or more of these on my panel now (yeah Xiaou2, I said it ;) ) just to have a clickless dedicated 4-way. I really wish someone could come up with a good way of switching the restrictor plate on this stick from above.
Just to clarify, HID standard, indeed, alows for 32 bit variables. But most (if not all) Windows applications work with USB input devices through DirectX component called DirectInput. Internally, DirectInput scales logical range of USB variables to unsigned integer 16 bit so unless software talks directly to HID driver (this is Royal pain as you have to dig through USB devices list, find the one that looks like a joystick, get its descriptor, parse it, then work with raw data, etc) extra bits beyond 16bit resolution will be simply lost.
Analog was limited to 256 in the old school gameport. This is not true anymore with modern win9x/XP & USB. USB can do far higher precision values per axis. If the sensors and other hardware are designed correctly, they can do 32 bits per axis (256 vs 4,294,967,295 values). This is done without any special drivers; the standard windows HID drivers already handling your current controllers are the only drivers needed.
Just to clarify, HID standard, indeed, alows for 32 bit variables. But most (if not all) Windows applications work with USB input devices through DirectX component called DirectInput. Internally, DirectInput scales logical range of USB variables to unsigned integer 16 bit so unless software talks directly to HID driver (this is Royal pain as you have to dig through USB devices list, find the one that looks like a joystick, get its descriptor, parse it, then work with raw data, etc) extra bits beyond 16bit resolution will be simply lost.
Either way, 16bit or 32bit, that's at least hundreds of times higher resolution than the old 256. :applaud:
Either way, 16bit or 32bit, that's at least hundreds of times higher resolution than the old 256. :applaud:Which, IMHO, is also hundreds of times more than what is sufficient.
Here's a fun exercise for folks to demonstrate to themselves what that archaic old 256x256 really means in practical terms: Crank up the res on your monitor and use your favorite drawing/CAD program to draw a 256x256 grid, making sure you can see some clear division between each and every position. Difficult, isn't it? Maybe close to impossible.
Each one of those dots represents a possible position for the standard analog stick from yesteryear.
Outside of, say, a surgical simulator for the medical field, is there some killer application that requires this new level of precision? It sure ain't classic arcade games :)
RandyT
Just as a non-technical comment...
I received my sticks today, and have only so far had chance to try one in analog mode at work. My opinion so far is very good, it plays fantastic! I have only played analog games so I am not commenting on the mapping and use in digital games, but having been after a balltop (or non-trigger handle really) analog arcade stick for some time this really is perfect for me. Forgetting analog resolutions, the stick is very nice and precise on all the games I've tried so far :)
When I get chance to install them into a control panel I am looking forward to seeing how they perform with digital games (esp. 8-way fighters) and also how the restrictor plates affect things.
I'm holding on these and may order depending on some reviews.
Some games you want it to be impossible to see the divisions you talk about:
Any lightgun game with at least one axis with resolution >= 256 and small targets.
Any positional gun game with the hardware to see better than 256, and small targets.
Take term2 (400x256 screen), for example. With 256x256 joystick, you can almost hit 2 out of every 3 columns (you hit 256 out of 400, which is 2 out of 3.125). You lose more than 1 (1.08) out of every 3 pixels; IOW you can't hit one third of the screen, interlaced with what you can hit. It doesn't really hurt hitting the near targets, but this makes hitting the small, far, already-hard-to-hit targets even harder.
Other times the possible hardware output may be 256x256, but your game/mame might see less:
When the throw is restricted and the stick's firmware can't adjust ...Then you have less than 256x256. While if you started with 1024x1024, you can restrict it to one sixteenth the area (one quarter movement each direction) and still get true 256x256 at the game.
And ATM 1024 (10 bits) is all that's needed for those few games that need > 256.
Neither lightguns nor positional guns have that type of pixel perfect precision (meaning the ability to hit where the gun is aiming,) . . .<lurk off>(Light)gun control means being able to hit where you are aiming.<lurk on> :laugh2:
Some games you want it to be impossible to see the divisions you talk about:
But an example of one still hasn't surfaced. :)
...QuoteAnd ATM 1024 (10 bits) is all that's needed for those few games that need > 256.
And those games are....?
From: KIM::MILTY 18-JUL-1991 08:06:16.14
To: @ENCODER.LIS
CC:
Subj: OPTICAL ENCODER USES
I HAVE BEEN ASSIGNED THE TASK OF DESIGNING THE NEXT GENERATION "TESTER"
FOR THE OPTICAL ROTARY ENCODER (THE LITTLE GUY ,ABOUT THE SIZE OF OUR 5K
POT ).
"I NEED INPUT"..HOW IS THIS ENCODER ENVISIONED BEING USED ?
I MEAN ,IN TERMS OF RESOLUTION.....HOW FAST WILL IT SPIN...?
THE OUTPUT RATE IS 128 PULSES/REVOLUTION PER CHANNEL (2 CHANNELS
IN QUADRATURE 90 DEGREES APART )
"BADLANDS STEERING" WAS 1:1 WITH A 58 PULSES/REVOLUTION RATE.
"WHIRLY-GIG IS 1:1 WITH A 72 " " "
"RACE DRIVIN (COMPACT)" 1:1 WITH A 72 " " "
"ROADBLASTERS" WAS GEARED 1:4 WITH A 36 P/R RATE....BUT THEN
THE STEERING WAS RESTRICTED TO 1/2 TURN,SO A
TOTAL OF 72 PULSES WOULD BE "SEEN" FROM
LOCK TO LOCK OF THE STEERING CONTROL.
....SOOO,LOOKING DOWN THE ROAD,...HOW MUCH "RESOLUTION" COULD WE
USE ,...
"GUMBALL RALLY" HAD AN ENCODER ON EACH MOTOR WHICH COULD SPIN AS FAST
AS 3600 RPM WITH 24 PULSES/ROTATION (1440 PULSES/SEC )...TO DO THE
SAME JOB THIS NEW ENCODER WOULD NEED TO SPIN AT 675 RPM.
...[snip]...
MILTY
Umm... this argument is very enlightening, but it really has little to do with the original subject at this point... perhaps a different thread would be better suited to it?
--Chris
Any reviews on this stick yet? Been about a month since it was announced, and I know I'm quite interested. Been looking for new sticks for months, but haven't had the time to really scour much.
Looks interesting, but maybe an acquired taste. So, opinions!!!
So, would I purchase the stick again? Yes. I am considering getting another one for player 2, but will not do so until I can confirm whether the stiffer spring improves the softness of the stick. I prefer a bit more resistence than the stick currently provides.
->Dan
Hi all,
Here's my quick review after playing with the UltraStik for a few weeks. The digital restriction on the joystick works great. I wrote a program to automatically go through all the games in MAME and create .ugc files based on the type of controller each game has. I then configured MAMEWah to run Andy's executable with the ugc file before the game starts and it works great. The only thing I have left to do is get MAMEWah to return the stick to 8-way mode after the game is done and before going back to the menu.
etc..
The only thing I have left to do is get MAMEWah to return the stick to 8-way mode after the game is done and before going back to the menu. Currently, a game of Galaga will then make it impossible to move up/down in the menu to select another game! :P If anyone knows how to do this, please let me know!
I saw that Andy sells stiffer springs for the stick, but I can't justify spending $14 on shipping for a $5 spring so I can't say how much they improve the stick's softness.
isnt there a command in the mamewah ini files that lets you launch a program on closing the current game, similar to launching an external app before the game is launched??
i believe the line is called "post_emulator_external_app" or somehting like that anyway...
you could then set this line to run Andy's app with a ugc file that sets the stick back to 8 way
I am gauging interest here. I might do something like HowardC did with the LEDWiz and ask for donations if there is enough interest. Would anyone be interested in an app that is based on controls.dat to set the modes for you. It would be equivilant to set49mode that I did for the GPWiz49.
I am gauging interest here. I might do something like HowardC did with the LEDWiz and ask for donations if there is enough interest. Would anyone be interested in an app that is based on controls.dat to set the modes for you. It would be equivilant to set49mode that I did for the GPWiz49.
I am gauging interest here. I might do something like HowardC did with the LEDWiz and ask for donations if there is enough interest. Would anyone be interested in an app that is based on controls.dat to set the modes for you. It would be equivilant to set49mode that I did for the GPWiz49.
Question, I read that you can only connect 4 of these up and any more than that you won't be able to download any maps to them. What if I have 4 of the U360, 1 trackball and 1 spinner? If everything is USB for example..... 4 - U360, 1 - GGG Trackball and 1 - Apache Spinner will this still work??
I am gauging interest here. I might do something like HowardC did with the LEDWiz and ask for donations if there is enough interest. Would anyone be interested in an app that is based on controls.dat to set the modes for you. It would be equivilant to set49mode that I did for the GPWiz49.
I seriously went bugged eyed and got dizzy reading this entire thread. :blah:
So how are the U360's holding up? Is there any links to reviews, more info, etc? I kinda got lost in it all up above...Thanks from the overly excited newb that wants to use these sticks and build his first cabby!!! Look like a great joystick! It almost makes me glad I'm getting into now...Are they that good?
Laterz
Just to confirm on these:
You have to map each game seperately AND load them "by hand" if you're not using a frontend?
Sounds like a bit of a beating. :(
Can you run a wrapper from within MAME32 - operate it all just the same by just clicking on the game you want and 32 will run the wrapper for you for each specified game?
Yeah, that did sound confusing.
When you run a game in MAME32, you simply double-click on the game you want from the list. Can you get the wrapper to run for the game you click on at the same time?
Hi,
Will be picking some of the Ultra 360's up for my first control panel. Jeeze, I'm starting to think that 5 of these would be really nice. One mounted up high with the 4 way restrictor dedicated. Two Inside Center sticks stiff 8 way restrictor dedicated (Robotron dude!). Then one on each side of the 8 ways as maybe no restrictor plates and some buttons in between.
Question: The Ipac...with 4, or maybe even 5 Ultra 360 joysticks...would you need the Ipac? Why or why not???...laymen terms please as you are dealing with a control panel newb. :dunno
THANKS!!
I think you're going a little overboard.
These are great for avoiding the frankenpanel design, but if you're going to be throwing a slew of joysticks on anyway, why not stick to to a dedicated 4-way, two 8-ways as the secondary joysticks for each player, then two U360's for the primary joysticks for each player? It'll be cheaper, and seems to make far more sense to me. There's no reason to buy one of these if it's going to be stuck "with the 4 way restrictor dedicated".