Build Your Own Arcade Controls Forum
Main => Main Forum => Topic started by: DreamArcades on May 12, 2005, 11:20:58 am
-
I just returned from a trip to find a letter from Ultracade
-
Dang dude! sorry to hear that!
-
Ignore it. If you're not putting roms on your machines you aren't breaking the law. This would be akin to a company like Dell taking Shuttle to court because Shuttle sells barebones PC's that come without any operating system or software installed.
There are thousands of PC games that play very well in an arcade cabinet, including many classic arcade games that can be purchased by your customers in the form of compilation discs such as Midway Classics and so on.
-
tell em to pound sand.
-
What was the deal with this in the end?. Did Ultracade successfully get the MAME tm?.
Anyway surely if you remove any MAME branded art or emulation software you aren't doing anything they can challenge?. What end users choose to do after the fact is an issue for them surely.
If you have a valid licence to distribute Atari roms then there must be someone in the emu community that can write you a dedicated proprietary emulator to package with the machine. If someone chooses to install additional games or software afterward then its up to them. The same as with any other computer.
-
There are thousands of PC games that play very well in an arcade cabinet, including many classic arcade games that can be purchased by your customers in the form of compilation discs such as Midway Classics and so on.
Yes, we have recently started including free copies for Atari 80 classic games with all our tables and kits. Unfortunately, I think ignoring the problem will not make it go away. I think I
-
Unfair competition! Good grief. So they must think you are the Microsoft of the Arcade Cabinet world then.
I know nothing about US Law but this sounds very , very dodgy to me. Just an attempt by this idiot at Ultracade to remove the competition. Honestly this guy sounds like he is a right arse (and yes you can quote me on that - sue me in the UK why don't you and see how far you get!)
-
Please post said letter here. I've done a lot of legal research, as have others on the board. Then we can see how much bunk this is.
-
god i'm sick of these guys.
-
All of the links and info regarding the MAME trademark and use thereof are on the MAME Dev's web site here:
http://mamedev.com/trademark.html
MAME
-
To read an article on a related topic, this this one:
http://www.chuckpalahniuk.net/community/printthread.php?t=20373
Its about a college student who sold MSFT products on Ebay.
-
Unfair competition! Good grief. So they must think you are the Microsoft of the Arcade Cabinet world then.
Actually, I think it's more like Ultracade thinks they are the Microsoft of the Arcade Cabinet World.
Regarding the previous example, it's more like Dell trying to get Gateway to quit selling PC's b/c it's unfair competition. (or vice versa).
-
De.....Ja.......Vue.
Perhaps you should contact MAME dev or Nicola directly. If you are packaging legitimately licenced roms then I can't really see any issue for you.
Sounds like Ultracade are trying a shakedown.
I wonder if they've contacted all the artists and printshops again like they did last time?.
-
While I'm not a lawyer, I don't think they have a legal case when it comes to enforcing a cease and desist letter. You are simply providing an assembled structure within which people can house PCs, video game consoles, or arcade parts from older machines. I'm guessing if you were to stop offering the games with the cabinets they wouldn't have a leg to stand on -- that could be the only issue where it becomes hazy legally (depending on whether you aquired the rights to distribute them), but even that is nonsense.
Screw Ultracade. If their product was any good they wouldn't have to try stifling the competition. They can't stop people from building arcades, and you're selling a prebuilt arcade. For this to have any merit they'd then have to sue arcade part distributors to keep things out of the public's hands. This whole thing is nonsense.
-
Clearly Mr. Ultracade didn't learn a lesson the last time he fired off a round of S&D letters. This guy is a world class anus.
-S
-
Looks like it's time to head over to their forums...
http://www.ultracade.com/forums/
Let's see how long before they take our comments offline.
-
All of the links and info regarding the MAME trademark and use thereof are on the MAME Dev's web site here:
http://mamedev.com/trademark.html
So wait a minute, if they abandoned their attempts to trademark MAME, what the hell are their grounds? How is DreamArcades "unfair"?
(Grrr, what a bunch of a-holes.)
-
Everyone calm down. We won't know anything until we can actually READ the C&D for ourselves.
-
Looks like it's time to head over to their forums...
http://www.ultracade.com/forums/
Let's see how long before they take our comments offline.
WOW!!! Those forums are just TEAMING with activity!!! :D
-
While I'm not a lawyer, I don't think they have a legal case when it comes to enforcing a cease and desist letter. You are simply providing an assembled structure within which people can house PCs, video game consoles, or arcade parts from older machines. I'm guessing if you were to stop offering the games with the cabinets they wouldn't have a leg to stand on -- that could be the only issue where it becomes hazy legally (depending on whether you aquired the rights to distribute them), but even that is nonsense.
But the games dreamarcades is selling are legal. Starroms are legal. So are PC remakes.
I'd definately say you have to get a lawyer. But Ultracade shouldn't have a leg to stand on.
Did Ultracade cease and desist Hanaho? Hanaho has a couple of PC based cabinets.
-
WOW!!! Those forums are just TEAMING with activity!!! :D
LOL. Everyone I read was some kind of gripe with a fairly rude response by Foley.
Until I see the C&D letter, there's not too much to comment on. BUT... Foley can't enforce anything that isn't his.
-
It also states that I need to stop selling all products utilizing MAME
Like Peale said, we'd have to look at the letter,t hough you may want a lawyer to look at it first.
Is Mr Ultracade the MAME police?
-
Clearly Mr. Ultracade didn't learn a lesson the last time he fired off a round of S&D letters. This guy is a world class anus.
-S
Yeah I was thinking Mr. Foley stinks... Anus is likely the best description.
It would seem to me with his skewed perspective that anyone that has actually released a arcade pack like Revenge of Arcade (Microsoft) would be the unfair compentition. Maybe if the deuchebag sold empty cabs then it'd be an apple to apples comparison. Different product, different target sales, etc.
-Goz
-
The problems you're going to run into are the software and the art. Neither MAME or WinCab Jukebox are licensed for commercial use (I've turned down all of the requests I've gotten to include it in cabinets; I didn't realize you were including it in yours). If you can get a resale license from StarROMs and MAME, though, Foley won't have a leg to stand on. I'm pretty sure you don't have a license to use the Nintendo characters in your coctail sideart, since Nintendo is so anti-emulation. The MAME logo is now trademarked by the MAME team and you'll need to get permission for that as well. This is the crux of Foley's argument for unfair competition: he's had to pay royalties and license fees, and you're using these art assets and software without paying for the same licenses and royalties.
Also, as far as the games go, you seem to encourage users to download illegal ROMs in your FAQ. Before any lawyers get involved, you may want to change the language to only point people toward StarROMs for their additional ROM needs.
If you do get an attorney, you're going to need to make sure you're clean on these issues so Foley can't use them against you.
Note that I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.
--Chris
-
Ignore it for now. But you should still "get your ducks in a row", so to speak.
-
Agreed, you may want to consult a lawyer just to put your mind at ease, but threatening letters are simply that- letters. Official court documents are documents with which to be reckoned.
-
Chris is right.
-
The MAME logo is now trademarked by the MAME team and you'll need to get permission for that as well. This is the crux of Foley's argument for unfair competition: he's had to pay royalties and license fees, and you're using these art assets and software without paying for the same licenses and royalties.
If that's the case, shouldn't this letter come from the MAME team and not UltraCrude?
You really should post this over @ mame.net
-
The MAME logo is now trademarked by the MAME team and you'll need to get permission for that as well.
-
This sounds like Foley's familiar attack all over again.
I agree that DreamArcades needs to remove any notion of illegal ROM downloading and remove any copyrighted logos.
-
The MAME logo is now trademarked by the MAME team and you'll need to get permission for that as well.
-
Chris is right.
-
it's the StarROMs ROMS (which are non-transferable, and thus cannot be sold with a machine),
They are non-transferable but I believe sellers may buy and register them in their customers name.
-
Chris,
I'll e-mail you offline about WinCab. I thought I had read the licensing and all it said was WinCab is freeware. I probably just missed something.
Anyway, I don't want to cause you any trouble.
-Mike
-
Actually, no.
-
it's the StarROMs ROMS (which are non-transferable, and thus cannot be sold with a machine),
They are non-transferable but I believe sellers may buy and register them in their customers name.
-
hah...i went over to the forums to see if any of you guy's had started any trouble, and i noticed that the most activity that his forum has had was today with 12 users at once...buisness must be booming.
-
Yes you are correct. DA's even has a contract with StarRoms that specifies how we can and cannot do this.
Then you're past the hardest part. Cleaning up the art to remove Nintendo and Namco characters is a must, though; these two companies are very litigous, and one letter from Foley will be enough to get their lawyers to do his dirty work for him. There are many talented individuals here who may be able to provide you with non-infringing art for a nominal fee (or more likely a product sample :) ).
--Chris
-
I think it'd be a riot if we started a project announcement thread there where we photoshop their cabinets with subtle adjustments and then claim we built them from scratch and got the roms online.
-
Flinkly quote:
"hah...i went over to the forums to see if any of you guy's had started any trouble, and i noticed that the most activity that his forum has had was today with 12 users at once...buisness must be booming. "
I just went there and the latest registered user was UltraCrap2.
Nice!
-
Ultracrap was registered today also. I saw that a little while ago.
Odds of both of those being deleted soon???
-
Chris,
That
-
i tried to register, and the dang thing wont let me...too funny.
-
Someone has started a thread over at the UC forums. :angel:
-S
-
If you keep kicking a cornered dog, he's going to bite. Do we really want to encourage Foley to throw legal types at our hobby? Making trouble on his forum is extremely counterproductive.
-
If you keep kicking a cornered dog, he's going to bite.
-
Looks like it's time to head over to their forums...
http://www.ultracade.com/forums/
Let's see how long before they take our comments offline.
WOW!!! Those forums are just TEAMING with activity!!! :D
wouldnt it be terrible if many people registered and swamp him with posts ;)
-
Looks like it's time to head over to their forums...
http://www.ultracade.com/forums/
Let's see how long before they take our comments offline.
WOW!!! Those forums are just TEAMING with activity!!! :D
wouldnt it be terrible if many people registered and swamp him with posts ;)
why bother?
looking at how dead the forums are I'd say business must be so slow that they've got nothing better to do than pester some poor MAME guys
-
If anyone is interested in making some side-art, let me know (pm or e-mail). I
-
I just went there and the latest registered user was UltraCrap2.
The funniest part is that Ultracrap was already taken.
If you keep kicking a cornered dog, he's going to bite. Do we really want to encourage Foley to throw legal types at our hobby? Making trouble on his forum is extremely counterproductive.
I know how well I control myself, so I'm not even going to that site. I'd have a knock at the door before the night was over. Watch what you guys say over there.:angel:
DA, there are some incredibly talented art guys around here, they'll come up with something.
-
I don't think Foley has any grounds for the C&D, he is *in my opinion* just a failing businessman who is desperate (and unscrupulous enough to try anything) to keep his company running.
I think there are others who would be well within their rights to cause you trouble. I think your FAQ mentioning how to find roms would completely disqualify you from distributing MAME.
The artwork is also a problem with the companies that have copyright on those characters.
Paul
-
You've been issued a legal threat -- contact a lawyer immediately and stop posting about this issue on these or any other forums. Nothing you say here about this can help you in this matter. You probably should listen to some of the advice posted here however.
On a side note, if his C&D letter is threatning your business in general, and not an aspect or aspects of your business, you should consider contacting HanaHo, SlikStik, and some of the others. Depending on what the C&D letter said, it may be in their best interests to assist you in defending yourself in some fashion.
Good luck!
--- saint
-
Please follow Saint's advice. A C&D is not a joking matter and usually preceeds and attempt to shut down your enitre business until you comply. CONTACT A LAWYER IMMEDIATELY. Sir Poonga is also correct (I think it was him that said it...correct me if I'm wrong), Mr. Foley does have a leg to stand on if he is ascerting unfair competition. He may be unjustifiably going after your inclusion of Star Roms material. He may also be after your Namco use (particularly since he gor burned on this one), but you should let your attorney see the letter make contact with Mr. Foley's councel. You need to find out why you received the letter and see if you can resolve this dispute. Furthermore, don't post anything more than a thank you on the board regarding this. If this goes to litigation, anything incriminating you said will be used.
Again go talk to your attorney. This is my legal advice.
Patent Doc
-
Doc, for the rest of us, can you clarify what "unfair competition" usually entails? I don't think that another company can just demand that you show them proof of anything (distribution rights for example)... can they?
-
http://ultracade.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=109#109
I loged in :angel:
-
But the games dreamarcades is selling are legal.
-
bear in mind that you cant buy and sell starroms...
This gets said a lot.
I verified personally with StarRoms that a seller CAN buy the ROMs under the customer's name as long as he doesn't mark them up. That way no license transfer happens.
-
it seems like the drama never ends... ::)
-
But the games dreamarcades is selling are legal. Starroms are legal. So are PC remakes.
bear in mind that you cant buy and sell starroms...
ok, rephrase, the starroms DA sells are legal.
-
OK, this link says what I know about unfair competition without all the tangents I would throw in regarding what unfair means with respect to contracts. Really this isn't my area of expertise. Basically, I just know the standard bar review mantra. That being said I have seen unfair competition pursued relating to trademarks, and it can get vicious. Still every case is different and the courts review the cases as such.
Here is the link.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/topics/unfair_competition.html
Patent Doc
-
bear in mind that you cant buy and sell starroms...
This gets said a lot.
I verified personally with StarRoms that a seller CAN buy the ROMs under the customer's name as long as he doesn't mark them up.
-
If you keep kicking a cornered dog, he's going to bite. Do we really want to encourage Foley to throw legal types at our hobby? Making trouble on his forum is extremely counterproductive.
While I agree with your sentiment (causing trouble usually leads to trouble), sicing lawyers over hill and yon costs just as much money as defending against them.
I'd bet all Dave has is a stack of C&D letters and a fistful of hopes.
I saw this exact same thing when Amiga Inc started squirtin' about some 15 year old games on some Hungarian website... they also badgered Spanish porn sites about defaming the trademarked name "Amiga" (despite the word's meaning in Spanish).
I doubt Dave is a millionaire, so this is all a bunch of hokum.
APf
-
http://www.law.cornell.edu/topics/unfair_competition.html
Thanks Doc. I'd say (not being familiar with this stuff or being a lawyer), that the only part of that Foley could really stand behind is the "misappropriation: unauthorized use of an intangible assets not protected by trademark or copyright laws". Of course name one company you couldn't use that against...
-
btw, if you DO use mame's name and links to illegal mame roms online, you REALLY need to remove them.
But since you can buy legal arcade cds that play 10-15 different games for 2-10 bucks in different locations. You should probably install them for free on each PC.
Next... I would ask (after cleaning up your site) the mame team for permission to install MAME on your cabinets if you don't advertise it, and only put on the free roms you can download from their site... Plus add in the instruction manual the link to star-roms.. If you get permission (and do it nice and legal) you will have a easier case in court.
But remember. You ARE making money on mames name if you use mames name... or say runs thousands of classic arcade games (unless you find another emulator to do that).... You should REALLY consider cleaning up the act. I don't believe anyone who is buying your cabinets have never heard of mame.... or the ones who haven't wouldn't care about
using a arcade collections CD instead.
LAST - I would MAKE sure its OBVIOUS its for home use only on your website... This IS foleys case here (the unfair). Because he is paying to have legal roms to be put on his machines for buisiness use. His cabinets can be put in an arcade legally. And that is the unfair aspect that he is paying someone where you aren't. If its cutting into his arcade owner clients sales, and it is illegal, he might really have a case...
Back to what Saint said. Pay a lawyer for a few hours. Cost a bit but will be worth it.
And last... I wouldn't take Folley on head on. He probably is looking for a test-case. Expect that he has copies of your website as of today. The best case would be for him to ignore you from this point on. If you clean up, talke to a lawyer.. And he believes that his case isn't going to go well and he doesn't continue it... it WILL be in your best interest (unless you really don't have any links to roms ect)
-
Um, I'm thinking that if I were DA, I might've updated my website by now...
-
You guys nearly doubled the number of registered users. I love some of the names you guys picked! Doesn't look like your post held up Daywane.
Todd
-
Ok, finally got to take a closer look at Dream Arcades website...
And I CANT SEE A SINGLE THING VAGUELY WRONG!
Mentioned MAME on one page... sure... But then talkes about starroms and then also a page of good PC games to play on a cab.
What the !@# is Dave worried about (other then competition?)
I thought there would at least be some mention that you can easily get all 5000 games or maybe a link to the rom burners groups... but seems very very clean to me.
I believe you could get mames permission to use their name / install with free roms when you point to your website. You seem to be following all the rules and doing a very good job of it. (and good going)
-
Ok, finally got to take a closer look at Dream Arcades website...
And I CANT SEE A SINGLE THING VAGUELY WRONG!
What the !@# is Dave worried about (other then competition?)
He's done some cleanup work on the site since this message was first posted.
-
Mr. Foley has done a little cleanup on his forums this morning too. :)
-S
-
Foley is just being a dick.
-
Thanks for everyone for all there messages of support. Honestly, seeing how much support there is in the community for MAME cabinet builders is great.
Obviously I can
-
other then calling him a Mame Nazi.
I wonder why he would not debate with me?
I fell all the sales for art he stopped the first time on ebay, the seller has a case for law suit for lost sales.
-
What the !@# is Dave worried about (other then competition?)
Unfortunately this is the way of the world (or at least the USA) these days. If you can't win by fair and honest competition, then sue someone.
Mr Foley is panicing because he used to be the only player in the game. Now there are more and more people building cabinets, and these people are turning to StarRoms for legal licensing options. And might I add, StarRoms deserve commendation for providing the service they do to MAME users who are willing to legally buy the games they wish to play but so far have been denied. But I'll leave that speil for another post.
All of a sudden there is legal competition to Ultracade. And while the subject of ROMs is still a grey area, Mr Foley will spread as much FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) through abusing the legal system as he sees fit.
This is a business practice that is common on modern America. Copyrights where originally penned as an idea to HELP progress, not stifle it. What Mr Foley forgets is that he doesn't own MAME, nor the games he supplies with his hardware. As long as he is able to legally license them, so are any other people in the same market. This is what we call fair competition.
So yes, these C&D letters are a desperate grab at attention by a man who knows he is no longer the monopolistic "big fish" of the pond. All of a sudden there are a lot of little fish making ripples, and he doesn't like it one little bit. Welcome to fair trade, and the capatilist market Mr Foley. That's the same market that made you your dollars, if you recall. If you don't like it, you can always emmigrate to a nice Draconian society like China, and buy all the control you can afford.
-
Oh woe is Foley.
Welcome to the business world Mr. Foley. Every good idea is followed by imitation. To succeed in business you have to adapt and continue to innovate.
-
First off, IANAL (I anal? - could be argued, I suppose!) - don't take anything I say here as legal advice, and some of it is somewhat devil's advocate.
Secondly, I have not dealt with DA personally, but from everything I read they seem like a reasonable company, I am glad they are available to the community and I support them in this effort.
btw, if you DO use mame's name and links to illegal mame roms online, you REALLY need to remove them.
As I understand it, using MAME in any commercial enterprise without the express permission of Nicola is a violation of the new copyright. I would take MAME off the machines.
Regarding links to illegal roms - hard to say what makes the ROMS legal or illegal - if I say "Games to play on the cabinet can be obtained from http://www.romsformame.com/ (darnit they took the site down!), but make sure you are legally entitled to anything you install", I think that covers him legally. At least the MAMEdev's seem to think that covers them when you start a new game. Now whether I can legally download say gyruss and play it in MAME (with or without a boardset containing the original game chips) is really up to Konami or whoever currently owns them (if that can be determined) and their lawyers to decide, but I don't think that's happened yet. (But someone will debate it again on the software forum in a week or two, so we can come back to it there).
But since you can buy legal arcade cds that play 10-15 different games for 2-10 bucks in different locations. You should probably install them for free on each PC.
Careful with this too. I assume you are talking about something like Microsoft "Return of Arcade" in the discount software aisle or sth. You could mention that these will play on the cabinet. If you wanted you could buy and "throw them in" with the sale. But be careful that they are licensed to allow for resale and that when you install them you don't have to agree to a non-transferable license that states that only the person installing them on the machine is licensed to use them and they must be removed before sale of the machine. Personally, I wouldn't install them as most of your target audience will remove them and use MAME anyway.
Next... I would ask (after cleaning up your site) the mame team for permission to install MAME on your cabinets if you don't advertise it, and only put on the free roms you can download from their site... Plus add in the instruction manual the link to star-roms.. If you get permission (and do it nice and legal) you will have a easier case in court.
First off, MAME wouldn't authorize that, and there's NO point installing it if you don't advertise it. Look at it this way, the only benefit is that some customer might say "Hey, I didn't even have to download MAME". Then that gets spread around, then you are informally supplying MAME which LOOKS like a violation of the MAME license, which gets you in more trouble than if you just said MAME has given us permission to use the software and include it on the machine.
(OTOH, it would be worth a chuckle to have licensed permission for say the artwork characters, or the MAME distribution, not mention it, wait for the court appearance and then say "Oh yes, here is the legal documentation authorizing what we were doing", but it's not worth the hassle involved.)
Other than maybe a licensed copy of the OS, I wouldn't include ANY software on the cabinets (and I doubt the current MAME team would give permission). However, if you posted a link to www.sys2064.com or www.retrogames.com or www.mameworld.net/easyemu - that should be enough to get anyone started with the customers possibly violating the copyrights and not you. (As a courtesy, I would recommend getting permission from the webmasters (if possible) before doing this).
But remember. You ARE making money on mames name if you use mames name... or say runs thousands of classic arcade games (unless you find another emulator to do that)....
Statement 1 is correct. Statement two is incorrect. If I install Z26, Raine, NeoRage, ZSNES, FCEultra or NESTER, MESS, Project64, Chankast, Bleem, and Daphne - I'd bet I'm close to supporting thousands of (loosely defined) classic arcade games and I haven't made a dime off MAME (although the legal and copyright issues there may well be worse than those with MAME.)
You should REALLY consider cleaning up the act. I don't believe anyone who is buying your cabinets have never heard of mame.... or the ones who haven't wouldn't care about
using a arcade collections CD instead.
Agreed, but it looks like this is being done.
LAST - I would MAKE sure its OBVIOUS its for home use only on your website... This IS foleys case here (the unfair). Because he is paying to have legal roms to be put on his machines for buisiness use. His cabinets can be put in an arcade legally. And that is the unfair aspect that he is paying someone where you aren't. If its cutting into his arcade owner clients sales, and it is illegal, he might really have a case...
This is a good idea, but not necessarily required, or maybe desirable by dreamarcades. If someone buys an empty cabinet, puts an arcade monitor in it and a PS and a Pac-Man board, I think they could put it in a bar or pizzaria and have it set to make money and no-one could complain. If they put Raine on it and put a half of a Pac-Man board with the roms intact inside and charge for it, it's much more of a gray issue, but I don't know that DA wants to limit that and lose those customers. DA's call, IMO.
Back to what Saint said. Pay a lawyer for a few hours. Cost a bit but will be worth it.
And last... I wouldn't take Folley on head on. He probably is looking for a test-case. Expect that he has copies of your website as of today. The best case would be for him to ignore you from this point on. If you clean up, talke to a lawyer.. And he believes that his case isn't going to go well and he doesn't continue it... it WILL be in your best interest (unless you really don't have any links to roms ect)
Agreed. And as someone else said - IF Foley is serious, I would almost bet that he has copies of the text and art from your website from the time that the C&D letter was sent. And if he doesn't, www.archive.org probably does! :police:
-
Agreed.
-
Okay, I'm getting sick of everyone calling this guy "mr. foley". Mr. is a title of respect, do you respect this guy? Call him Dave or Foley or DF but stop trying to be all proper and "lawyerlike" and calling him Mr. Foley; it's really annoying. Or maybe I'm the only one that this bugs :P. I'll just call him little Davey Foley from now on. The little kid that can't have his way so he runs and tells mommy or cries about it.
-
Okay, I'm getting sick of everyone calling this guy "mr. foley".
-
How's Fartface?
Probably better than he deserves - but we want to keep this a family-friendly forum!
-
it seems like the drama never ends... ::)
Folly?
-
My name is Dave Foley, I'm 36 years old and I live in a van down by the RIVER!!
-
My name is Dave Foley, I'm 36 years old and I live in a van down by the RIVER!!
NOW THAT IS F'KG FUNNY!!!! :D :D :D