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(http://www.groovygamegear.com/Store_Images/GPWIZ49banner.jpg)
The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (Digital Restrictor Selection (TM) ) is the ultimate solution for using a 49-way joystick on a PC and includes 23 additional digital inputs for use with other controls.
DRS Technology allows a single 49-way Joystick to take the place of dedicated 8-way, 4-way, Diagonal and 2-way joysticks.
DRS Technology doesn't require special drivers or config files.
The joystick mode can be selected at any time. Just hold the Joystick Mode button and press the button associated with the desired mode of operation.
Available modes are:
Raw49 - Normal 49-way operation.
Progressive49 - Allows for finer 49-way control
8way DRS - Restricts joystick output to Vertical, Horizontal and Diagonal directions.
4way DRS - Restricts joystick output to Vertical and Horizontal directions only.
Diagonal DRS - Restricts joystick output to Diagonal directions only.
2wayH DRS - Restricts joystick output to Horizontal directions only.
2wayV DRS - Restricts joystick output to Vertical directions only.
16way DRS - Restricts joystick output to Vertical, Horizontal and Diagonal directions, plus 8 more directions in-between.
(http://www.groovygamegear.com/pimages/GPWIZ49L.jpg)
Additional Features:
- Auto Detection and operation with both Midway/Atari/Happ and Williams* 49-way joysticks. (Williams mode tests are complete (Thanks Kremmit!))
- 23 additional inputs for conventional Joysticks, buttons or similar switch based devices, 5 of which can be "shifted" for dual purpose buttons.
- Fully compatible with software with Joystick or Gamepad support
- Screw terminals on every input for fast and simple installation. (MAX Version ONLY)
- Super-Fast USB Gamepad functionality. Reports the status of ALL inputs 100 times a second!!! Much faster than USB Keyboard technology.
- No limitation on the number of simultaneous button presses and each input has equal priority.
- Unique Device Names and ID numbers for multiple unit installations on the same computer. Devices show up as GPWiz49, GPWiz49-2, GPWiz49-3 and GPWiz49-4 (respectively) in the "Gaming Options" dialog.
- Plug and Play HID device. Tested with 98SE, Win2K/XP. Will most likely work with other systems that comply with the the HID specification..
- Completely bus powered.
- Common GROUND wiring method. Only one input wire and a shared ground line to each switch.
- Small footprint. Fits anywhere.
(http://www.groovygamegear.com/pimages/GPWIZ49MAXL.jpg)
$19.95 Eco Version and $22.95 "No-Solder" Eco Version Includes:
- GP-Wiz49 Eco Interface Board
- 6' USB Cable
- Printed Doc Sheet
$34.95 MAX Version Includes:
- GP-Wiz49 MAX Interface Board
- 6' USB Cable
- PCB Mounting hardware
- Printed Doc Sheet
Full-release version available for order now.
Thanks for the continued support, and as always questions and constructive comments are welcome.
RandyT
* Midway, Atari, Happ and Williams are trademarks of their respective organizations and have no relationship to IDVT Inc. or GroovyGameGear.com
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Does it send input to Mame while in 49-way raw mode so that Mame Analog+ would be required?
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Jody, you beat me by about 30 seconds! ;D
Does my PC see them as analog, or what, when in Raw or Progressive mode?
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Output is understood as analog. No special software is necessary.
RandyT
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RandyT,
Can you elaborate a bit on the real-life functioning of the "restrictor modes" on this?
Specific questions I would have are:
1) In the 4-way restricted mode, at what point from dead center (on the 7x7 grid) does the joystick begin sending a directional signal?
2) If you are pressing dead UP in 4-way mode (value of 3y/0x on the optical detectors), and then start moving toward the dead RIGHT position, at what point does the digital restrictor swap direction input to the computer?
Is there a dead spot in the middle, during this movement?
3) In 8-way mode, where are the "swap spots" on the 7x7 grid for Up/Up-Right/Right?
For example is 3x/1y a Right signal, or an Up-Right signal?
How about 2x/1y, etc....?
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VERY COOL! I want a 49way now.
BTW, wouldn't a better interface instead of several buttons to change mode just a couple of buttons. an up/down selection button (or just a change button) and LED indicators that indicate what mode you are in. That would work better with instruction card type of things and oyu wouldn;t need as much control space. And it wouldn't be as ugly to have 1/2 buttons and a row of labelled LEDs vs a row of 8 buttons for EACH 49way.
Heck, if you could output a signal for each mose (IE to light a LED) one could get createive and have a set of LEDs around the joystick that indicate which directions it reads :) That would be pretty cool!
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Raw49 - Normal 49-way operation.
Progressive49 - Allows for finer 49-way control
Explain in more detail. Are these the icons on your graphics to the way left? If someone made an instruction card to tell people how to use could one use those graphics?
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Randy, lets have that small lcd to hook up to this so we can see what mode we are in ;D ;D
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VERY COOL! I want a 49way now.
BTW, wouldn't a better interface instead of several buttons to change mode just a couple of buttons. an up/down selection button (or just a change button) and LED indicators that indicate what mode you are in. That would work better with instruction card type of things and oyu wouldn;t need as much control space. And it wouldn't be as ugly to have 1/2 buttons and a row of labelled LEDs vs a row of 8 buttons for EACH 49way.
Somehow, I knew I didn't explain that one well enough. :)
The first 7 player buttons on the interface are also the "Joystick Mode" buttons. The only extra button you need on the panel is the "Mode" button, and that can be concealed if you desire it to be. When not changing modes, the 7 player buttons behave like all the others.
A small label below or above each of the buttons will do nicely, and won't use any inputs that could be used for controls.
RandyT
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Raw49 - Normal 49-way operation.
Progressive49 - Allows for finer 49-way control
Explain in more detail. Are these the icons on your graphics to the way left? If someone made an instruction card to tell people how to use could one use those graphics?
Yes. In fact, you could use those to label the buttons I spoke of in the last post ;).
Raw is just that. Raw, linear math defining the zones.
Progressive takes smaller steps before going to full in any direction. Allows for better use of applications requiring more delicate control.
RandyT
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Gah!!!! now I can't decide which GroovyGG product to buy. To many good choices!!! ;D
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RandyT,
Can you elaborate a bit on the real-life functioning of the "restrictor modes" on this?
Most of what you are asking is, unfortunately, proprietary info.
The best I can offer is that the device is designed to behave as close as technically possible to that of the dedicated devices it is designed to replace.
Think leaf-switch joystick in feel and performance, but with a lot more capabilities and better accuracy.
RandyT
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VERY COOL! I want a 49way now.
BTW, wouldn't a better interface instead of several buttons to change mode just a couple of buttons. an up/down selection button (or just a change button) and LED indicators that indicate what mode you are in. That would work better with instruction card type of things and oyu wouldn;t need as much control space. And it wouldn't be as ugly to have 1/2 buttons and a row of labelled LEDs vs a row of 8 buttons for EACH 49way.
Somehow, I knew I didn't explain that one well enough. :)
The first 7 player buttons on the interface are also the "Joystick Mode" buttons. The only extra button you need on the panel is the "Mode" button, and that can be concealed if you desire it to be. When not changing modes, the 7 player buttons behave like all the others.
A small label below or above each of the buttons will do nicely, and won't use any inputs that could be used for controls.
RandyT
Ewwww. That may not mesh well in many setups, one would NEED 7 buttons. Many people only have a 6 button layout for one player.
Like I would go and buy two so I can have a two player setup. however I only have 6 buttons per player. I wouldn;t want to put that 7th input as a coin or start as that would be akward to use.
Again, I suggest a mode change button and someway of indicating what mode you are in.
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Oh man ! I can't believe how much cool new stuff is coming out lately. Damn you Randy.Now I have to sell my SJC so I can buy one of these. :laugh: This interface sounds like it blows away the SJC board in every way ! I'll be ordering *very* soon. I have the Williams Arch Rival orange balltop versions so I'm hoping that your interface will work fine with these. I can't see why it wouldn't. Please post when this is confirmed.
And thanks for bringing us such cool products in the past couple of years. Your hard work and passion for this hobby continues to bring us solutions that make our cabs better and better. Hats off to you for listening to the community and bringing us a steady flow of usefull products. We dream up this stuff and you end up making it a reality. VERY COOL INDEED ! ;D
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That may not mesh well in many setups, one would NEED 7 buttons.
Not really. In all honesty, the last two modes are pretty much optional. I.e. included because I could, and not because they were absolutely necessary. However, I am seeing a lot of the 7 button panels out there lately, and if I were to build a new one tomorrow, it would have 7 buttons on it per stick (2P only, of course)
You wouldn't miss the 2wayV mode at all on a 6 button panel.
I'll run down my thought processes on this one, as I did consider the method you are speaking of.
The method you described would take multiple button presses to get to the mode you wanted because it is sequential in nature, and would require 2 extra panel buttons and 7 LED's to be usable. LED indicators would use 7 inputs, the stick uses 8 and the selector buttons (these would have to be dedicated) would use 2.. This would leave 15 inputs for buttons. While this is enough for most purposes, the price of admission in terms of complexity and effort is much greater than the method I settled on.
The current method is a direct selection of the desired mode and needs no indicators, as you can easily and quickly select the desired mode before beginning. It makes use of buttons that are already there and pays no price in available inputs, leaving 23 per controller to use as needed.
My goal was to provide something that functions well.and be something that could easily be installed and used on just about every panel, by users of all skill levels.
I'll consider the flashy one for a future product.
Thanks for the input.
RandyT
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i know i turned you down when you offered me one, but with this full length explanation, it's starting to sound better and better. i would love to hear how the williams does when testing...since this is the 49 way i have. so keep up the good work and get the tests done as soon as possible.
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Congratulations on getting this working Randy! Good job, stellar effort!
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Actually, I for one would use all the modes :).
ACtually, it wouldn't be an iput. The best method would to have another IC control the LEDs that light up. This could be hacked to power relays which would implement my LEDs around the joystick idea.
The other thing I could see a user wanting to do which would be completely possible with your current setup via hardware, is have the setup change automatically based on controls.dat or mame's info. Just hook up a relay circuit to the parallel port. Custom program FE to select the appropiate button based on controls.dat when game is selected :)
See people, another reason to donate time to controls.dat!
Now what might be cool to hack into this is atari volcanos to select mode and indicate which mode is seleted (can be done in hardware with relays and such pretty easily) so it looks like atari Xs and 0s.
ok, this product is giving me way too many ideas...
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While nice for standard 49 way...
I personally see the additional features as purely a novelty.
If playing a 2way game of galaga... and you accidentally press down+diagnol left...
then your move will not register. This will mean you will have made a costly pause.. and may have died as a result of the non action.
As for the way a 49 way responds.. its not quite as smooth and fast as a simple
wico leaf joystick. Its resistence is higher with the rubber x... or in the case if the new
style 49ways... there is a center zone that is hard to get out of (same as an analog stick).
I suppose this would be ok for a bartop if you wanted to play sinistar that bad.. and yet needed the other control ability without having the room to add the other controls... but other than that.. its not as good as the real mechanical solutions.
I didnt remember seeing if that supported more than one joy... and to me, that would be more important a feature than the other stuff. Having to buy 2 encoders to have a dual 49 way joystick setup kinda stinks.
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no one is forcing you to buy it, but for those who don't have the money to spend on 6 different kinds of joysticks might enjoy this. and at that price, buying two isn't that bad, mostly if you know how to solder, which i would choose just due to the ease of it, but on top of that, it's cheaper. and for a question to whomever gets the first one, how does it compare to what the sjc already does? do they do the basic 49 way stuff the same? is one better? i might just get one of these because they are cheaper, but is there a reason to consider the sjc? any input would be appreciated.
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FYI, you can do this with analog+ mame and a 49way, however I don't think there is a button push way of switching control patterns on the fly. Just letting people know this isn;t a new idea, just a hardware version of something that's been done in software for some time.
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While nice for standard 49 way...
I personally see the additional features as purely a novelty.
If playing a 2way game of galaga... and you accidentally press down+diagnol left...
then your move will not register. This will mean you will have made a costly pause.. and may have died as a result of the non action.
Statements like these make me think the unwritten rule stating that one should have some real experience with something before "poo-poo"ing it, should actually be put in writing.
I'm not sure what you are referring to with the above, but I wholeheartedly assure you that this does NOT happen.
As for the way a 49 way responds.. its not quite as smooth and fast as a simple
wico leaf joystick. Its resistence is higher with the rubber x...
This may be. I was referring to the one I have been working with, the Midway variety. But this one is very smooth and very fast..
In fact I have a WICO leaf right in front of me and the two feel virtually identical.
or in the case if the new
style 49ways... there is a center zone that is hard to get out of (same as an analog stick).
I suppose this would be ok for a bartop if you wanted to play sinistar that bad.. and yet needed the other control ability without having the room to add the other controls... but other than that.. its not as good as the real mechanical solutions.
Again, you are comparing apples and oranges. Forget what you think you know. It doesn't apply here.
RandyT
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no one is forcing you to buy it
I am NOT!
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When you refer to raw49 and progressive49 is this similar to linear vs exponetial scaling?
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Statements like these make me think the unwritten rule stating that one should have some real experience with something before "poo-poo"ing it, should actually be put in writing.
Exactly why I asked the questions that I did earlier.
I was trying to learn how this device handles the "digital restriction" before posting my concerns about it.
That's the downside to "proprietary" information--if you don't RELEASE it, then nobody will KNOW it, which leads to speculative posts.
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RandyT with the way you are pumping out products I was wondering when you were going to release something similar to the jpac? Also, is there analog interface board in the works?
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Sounds like this would be the ideal solution for those of us noodling with the idea of a dedicated cab for Sinistar using MAMETM
;D
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In answer to Xiaou2's post,
Using the 2-way digital restrictor SHOULD cause ANY input left of center to send left, and ANY input right of center to send right--theoretically.
RandyT didn't answer my question earlier, so I don't KNOW how far you have to push to get it to detect.
I am ASSUMING that it will detect an (x=1, y=0) condition, and resolve it properly to mean "go right".
Likewise, in specific response to his example, the (x=-1, y=-2) (a.k.a. down, with a little left) SHOULD resolve to a "go left" signal as soon as x=-1.
The y axis is basically completely disabled in 2-way mode.
What you are left with is a dead spot on the joystick from -1 < x < 1.
If the stick hasn't gone far enough left to hit -1, or far enough right to hit 1, then you don't get ANY output to the software from the device--exactly like any other 2-way out there.
The only difference being that you can fine tune a leafswitch 2-way to react IMMEDIATELY off-center--which may be a CRITICAL difference, in that it will create almost NO dead spot in the middle.
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I am GUESSING that, IF it was implemented properly, the digital restrictor on this SHOULD give performance at least on par with, and possibly better than, a P-360.
I am basing this on the supposition that the stick will in fact resolve the level 1 ring, which SHOULD give it a slightly smaller dead spot than the one on the P-360.
Add to this the fact that it SHOULD be capable of resolving a slightly smaller area as diagonal (when strafing around in the corner), and it SHOULD make for a really nice Robotron-type stick by spreading more of the shots around, instead of sending the major portion of them diagonally.
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Without more information from RandyT (grid mappings, etc...) I don't even WANT to venture a guess as to how this will handle 4-way mode--which would be my biggest concern from a do-all standpoint.
My biggest concern is how it will resolve the true diagonals close in.
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RandyT,
Can you elaborate a bit on the real-life functioning of the "restrictor modes" on this?
Most of what you are asking is, unfortunately, proprietary info.
The best I can offer is that the device is designed to behave as close as technically possible to that of the dedicated devices it is designed to replace.
Think leaf-switch joystick in feel and performance, but with a lot more capabilities and better accuracy.
RandyT
How secret could it possibly be Randy? I mean once I order mine I am going to be able to hook it up myself and SEE how it is interpreting the 7x7 grid for each mode. That isn't really the kind of info that you can keep secret.
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FYI, you can do this with analog+ mame and a 49way, however I don't think there is a button push way of switching control patterns on the fly. Just letting people know this isn;t a new idea, just a hardware version of something that's been done in software for some time.
SirP,
We can take your analogy even one step further. The method you described above is just a coarser Analog-style control and is also "nothing new" Software for the PC has taken digital co-ordinate data and converted it from day one. The control code looked at those co-ordinate values and made decisions for the gameplay based on where in that 255x255 grid those co-ordinates pointed to, setting boundries, which when crossed caused the program to do something different. In fact, that methodology pre-dates even the PC.
A more recent example is the not so "new idea" someone had to take the chore of converting the Analog signals to digital away from the host PC and relegate that task to the much more efficient microcontroller so that the first exposure the PC has to the data is in a binary form that it can immediately act upon. I am referring, of course, to the transition to USB gaming controls from the legacy game port.
But I'll play along.
On one hand you have something that works very narrowly, with only one joystick model, with only one piece of software, with missing modes, needs to send 4x the data to, of all things a keyboard encoder, and based on the lukewarm reception of it, definitions that do not perform optimally (no offense intended to those involved in the attempt). And then on top of that, there is the issue of another burden placed on the CPU to do the translation.
On the other hand, you plug in the GPWiz49 and it works as adverstised. No fancy configuring. It works the same with ALL software. No additional burdens on the CPU. All modes are covered and specifically designed with the hardware in mind, and yes, it is entirely hardware based.. That, in and of itself is unique, barring all of the other advances. It also costs less than other options that offer half as much.
Unless you can point me to something that you can honestly compare this to, I think it's safe to consider this a "new idea."
RandyT
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Well, hey, I think it's cool, and inexpensive enough for me to give it a try. I'll be buying one.
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How secret could it possibly be Randy? I mean once I order mine I am going to be able to hook it up myself and SEE how it is interpreting the 7x7 grid for each mode. That isn't really the kind of info that you can keep secret.
Sure I can.. I can delete this thread, remove them from my store, delete the source code and drink enough gin to erase the past 2 weeks of my life that I devoted to this project.
But I guess I'll just take my chances that folks won't try to reverse engineer something that is almost being given away in the larger scheme of things and jeopardize whatever possible interest I might have in developing new things for them in the future. :)
RandyT
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How secret could it possibly be Randy? I mean once I order mine I am going to be able to hook it up myself and SEE how it is interpreting the 7x7 grid for each mode. That isn't really the kind of info that you can keep secret.
Sure I can.. I can delete this thread, remove them from my store, delete the source code and drink enough gin to erase the past 2 weeks of my life that I devoted to this project.
But I guess I'll just take my chances that folks won't try to reverse engineer something that is almost being given away in the larger scheme of things and jeopardize whatever possible interest I might have in developing new things for them in the future. :)
RandyT
Hee hee. I am glad you made them, and most of us could probably correctly guess your grid interpretations anyway. I'll be ordering one, I guess it can replace the Q*Bert stick on my cabinet. I guess I just didn't see the mentioned information as being particularly secret, if anything providing diagrams of what it was doing would be a selling point, I know it would be for me. But I will buy one anyway!
Perhaps I missed this, but will you be adding 49-way sticks to your store?
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What you are left with is a dead spot on the joystick from -1 < x < 1.
If the stick hasn't gone far enough left to hit -1, or far enough right to hit 1, then you don't get ANY output to the software from the device--exactly like any other 2-way out there.
Heh. You need me to confim this stuff? You have it covered just fine.
The only difference being that you can fine tune a leafswitch 2-way to react IMMEDIATELY off-center--which may be a CRITICAL difference, in that it will create almost NO dead spot in the middle.
On the surface, that sounds like it might be desireable, but in reality, it's just a drawback. If you have the switches that tight, you don't get faster movement, just unintended movements. One tends to use gross motor skills with a joystick (unless you are talking about those tiny little Vectrex sticks you manipulate with your fingertips.) The difference between a 1/16" deadzone and an 1/8" one isn't really going to affect your play nearly as much as you thinking you are stationary, when in reality you are moving left into enemy fire :)
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I am GUESSING that, IF it was implemented properly, the digital restrictor on this SHOULD give performance at least on par with, and possibly better than, a P-360.
I am basing this on the supposition that the stick will in fact resolve the level 1 ring, which SHOULD give it a slightly smaller dead spot than the one on the P-360.
Add to this the fact that it SHOULD be capable of resolving a slightly smaller area as diagonal (when strafing around in the corner), and it SHOULD make for a really nice Robotron-type stick by spreading more of the shots around, instead of sending the major portion of them diagonally.
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I believe every one of these statements to be true.
Without more information from RandyT (grid mappings, etc...) I don't even WANT to venture a guess as to how this will handle 4-way mode--which would be my biggest concern from a do-all standpoint.
And it was mine as well. This is the most unforgiving mode for any non-physically restricted joystick., but extensive testing shows that it does indeed work and work well.
I have to underscore something here though. All testing thus far was with a particular variety of 49-way control. If I see that the Williams is not able to live up to the performance of the Midway/Atari/Happ model, and definitions cannot be developed to make it work as well, support for this stick will be removed. This would be unfortunate for those who may already be using one, but as they are no longer in production...well you get the idea. In that unfortunate event, I might make a version available for these folks by special request as not to leave them out in the cold.
My biggest concern is how it will resolve the true diagonals close in.
You should never do things you can't do well especially when it doesn't matter if you do them or not ;)
RandyT
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On one hand you have something that works very narrowly, with only one joystick model, with only one piece of software, with missing modes, and based on the lukewarm reception of it, definitions that do not perform optimally (no offense intended to those involved in the attempt). And then there is the issue of another burden placed on the CPU to do the translation.
To quote you
"Statements like these make me think the unwritten rule stating that one should have some real experience with something before "poo-poo"ing it, should actually be put in writing."
Have you tried analog+ mame? Do you know what it can and can't do with the patterns for interpreting the 49way?
On the other hand, you plug in the GPWiz49 and it works as adverstised. No fancy configuring. It works the same with ALL software. No additional burdens on the CPU.
The software in your IC is doing the same thing as the software on the PC would do. So it takes a couple extra cycles to process on the PC. Unless the IC the PC has MUCH more resources. The few IRQ requests that go through due to the interpretation from the PC is not enough to slow emulation down, even on a slow PC. The advantage of software doing the work is you can configure/modify software to do exactly what you want more easily than hardware.
I'm not saying your product is bad. I'm just mentioning to people they can do the same thing with software. Yes, hardware is a better solution in general. But you and I both know in this community there are people who will want to know all the facts and want to know where they can save money when possible.
Unless you can point me to something that you can honestly compare this to, I think it's safe to consider this a "new idea."
I'm saying the idea of having a 49way work on a pc is not a new idea. Doin it in hardware is though.
Basically, if you don't want as much control over configuration and just want something to work the way the majority of the people would want it to work your hardware solution is perfect. If you want more control on how the 49way is recognized the software solution is better. It comes down to the fact there are some situations hardware is better and some situations software is better. That's all. Don't read any more into it.
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Doing it in hardware isn't new either. I sold a cabinet with a USB 49-way almost a year ago. Although Randy's new encoder seems to have a lot more features than the existing SJC 49-way interface.
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As stated above... not completely explaining the functions lead to misunderstandings.
So what you are saying... is that the system will not ignor diagnols... but really use a "half-circle/half-circle" type of sensing for the 2way for instance - with a small deadzone.
As for the new style of 49ways... I have a low opinion of them. They are essentailly limited analog joysticks. And for that - one wouldnt even need an encoder.
The older Sinistar / Arch Rival joys used an X shaped band to make it harder to reach the edges of the stick. Like a gas pedal -vs- a brake.
The new joys make it hard to play sinistar... as you are able to move too fast - on accident. The additional resistence of the older joys - make it easer to keep your speeds under much better control. Staying slower while collecting the crystals.. yet able to dash off like a rocket with a hard push.
So, if you want an analog joystick that feels like a bat handle joystick.. and has less sensativity than an analog - then fine.
But lets get real here.
First off, I have built a sinistar stick from an analog joystick. I have felt and
playtested the differences between the center mounted spring that was in it... and then the new rubber x mod that I added to it to make it function properly.
I also picked up the real sinistar stick for kicks. Simular feel to the one I made. However - mines a bit stiffer, which makes it even easier to control the ship. This may also be due to the centering spider on the original being aged.
And, Im not 'pooing' your product. Rather, Im simply stating that its not a perfect solution to the serious classic game player. .. and that it would be more benificial to the typical gamer to have a 2-in-1 encoder rather than all those features that really arnt that usefull for the masses. It also promotes the use of incorrect controls for games, thus making the game look to be poor or too hard.
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To quote you
"Statements like these make me think the unwritten rule stating that one should have some real experience with something before "poo-poo"ing it, should actually be put in writing."
Have you tried analog+ mame? Do you know what it can and can't do with the patterns for interpreting the 49way?
No. I did not need to. I experimented briefly with the definitions shown for the modes and what I ended up using is quite different. Support for the 49 way in Analog MAME is a hack. It requires 4 times the amount of data to be sent to the host and in use appears to the encoder to be holding down/cycling many keys at once to do what it does. It's a valiant attempt, but it's a controls bandwidth choker. It also only works with that particular piece of software, as I stated. When it's a standalone driver and it's running via the parallel port, feel free to make the "software" comparison. At that point I might even agree.
On the other hand, you plug in the GPWiz49 and it works as adverstised. No fancy configuring. It works the same with ALL software. No additional burdens on the CPU.
The software in your IC is doing the same thing as the software on the PC would do.
But that's all it has to do. There isn't enough space on this page to list the things the PC must deal with at any given moment in time.
So it takes a couple extra cycles to process on the PC. Unless the IC the PC has MUCH more resources. The few IRQ requests that go through due to the interpretation from the PC is not enough to slow emulation down, even on a slow PC.
The controls bus has limited bandwidth. Use more than necessary, you are asking for problems. As far as PC resources go, any task it doesn't need to do, it shouldn't. I know, this goes against the philosphy of those folks that have a million tasks running in the background, but it's still an "ideal" that one should strive for.
The advantage of software doing the work is you can configure/modify software to do exactly what you want more easily than hardware.
Here's a simple question: Once you have something working as well as it can, given a specific set of circumstances and limitations based on them, what more do you need to change? I'm asking because if there's call for a 3 or 5 way stick, someone better let me know now :)
I'm not saying your product is bad. I'm just mentioning to people they can do the same thing with software. Yes, hardware is a better solution in general. But you and I both know in this community there are people who will want to know all the facts and want to know where they can save money when possible.
Maybe not, but your comments seemed to be bordering on "thread poisoning". I guess I should have posted the thread in the for sale forum to avoid the "you can do it cheaper by X" posts. Just seemed a little unbecoming for a mod.
RandyT
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It's a valiant attempt, but it's a controls bandwidth choker.
Not really. All pin signals aren't being sent at ones. The amount of signals being sent is no different then what gets sent during a fighter with huge combos going on.
Here's a simple question: Once you have something working as well as it can, given a specific set of circumstances and limitations based on them, what more do you need to change? I'm asking because if there's call for a 3 or 5 way stick, someone better let me know now :)
Simple answer, more control on how the 49way reacts/is interpreted. Here's an example and comparison to analog+ mame.
http://www.urebelscum.speedhost.com/49waySticks.html
Go about half way down and look at the graphics. I'm with paige on this one, knowing how you interpret the grid is a must know if someone wants to know how the 48 way is going to feel. How do you handle the boundries? How do you handle the dead spots?
What be cool is if youhas one more mode that was customixable so someone could put in a custom feel.
Like I said, there are situations where a software solution is better, there are situations where a hardware solution is better.
Maybe not, but your comments seemed to be bordering on "thread poisoning". I guess I should have posted the thread in the for sale forum to avoid the "you can do it cheaper by X" posts. Just seemed a little unbecoming for a mod.
you are the one interpeting it that way. I said i am just providing info that there is a software solution. That is all I am doing. I am not saying anything bad about your product. I am even saying buy your product because it is cool. From my point of view it sounds like you can't handle competition with remarks like that.
All I said was "But you and I both know in this community there are people who will want to know all the facts and want to know where they can save money when possible." That's the ONLY time I mentioned something about "price". You know this statement is true. There are people here, that if they can do it for free, even though it takes alot of setup, will do it. Look at arcadevga and such. There are still people who will run dos with an older video card to save money.
I never said it was cheaper though. Time is money. Depending on how you look at it depends on what you think is cheap or not. You obviously looked at it from a monetary point of view. Yes, it would save them money. But it is going to cost a bunch of time to get it set up. Heck, right there I am making the arguement on WHY to get your product.
I know you've been accused of not reading peoples replies the way they wrote them before. Please read more carefully what I wrote. I think about what I want to type before I type it and word it in a way to get the responses I expect to get. That's why I said I am just posting for informational purposes that there is a software solution. I knew you'd interpet that post as a negative against your product when it actually isn't.
In response to Xiaou2. A hardcore classic game is going to do one of two things, have dedicated controls or restrictor plates. IF you don't have the space for dedicated controls and you think plates are ugly this is your next best solution.
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man...and i thought you guys were BYOACers...
randy has come to us offering us a great new plug and play controller and all that i hear is how we don't need it.
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randy has come to us offering us a great new plug and play controller and all that I hear is how we don't need it. i for one don't want to mess with analog+ or quite frankly, anymore than i have to.
so stop riping on randy. if you want to tell people they can do it differently, then that is ok. but don't start bashing the product you haven't even used just because yo do things differently.
Dude, where did I say we didn't need this product? Go ahead, try and quote me where I said it was a bad product. I even mentioned it is a good thing. All I said was there are times for software solutions and times for hardware solutions. I did not attack the product. In fact I am praising it.
I said the situation for using this product is exactly for people like you. They don;t want to mess with the config.
The situation for software solution is for people who want more control over the "feel" of how the 40way interpets the grid.
Again, people, please read more carefully. I even said don't put more into it than this just being info and a difference in when software is better than hardware and when hardware is better than software.
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ok, I reread through what was said. It basically went down like this
I mentioned there's a software solution also.
As I figured Randy replied that his solution is better.
I replied that it depends on your point of view and goal (one being possible saving on money)m that one way could be conceived as better than the other.
Randy replies with more technical jargon on why his is better but also accusing me of thread poisoining.
The only time I "ripped" on Randy is to point out I am not thread poisoining, just pointing out all the options and that he misread what I said.
There's no where that I said a hardware solution is not a good choice. I was defending that you can't rule out software in situations where the software solution is better.
if I was thread poisoining I would have said the opposite, that hardware is not the way to go. That is not what I said. All I said was there are times when software iis better than hardware and hardware is better than software. I'm sorry if I have to keep repeating that statement but apparently no one is getting that point.
Long story short. This is a great product. I don't have anything against it. I never said anything bad about it. All I did was mention there are other possibllities too.
You have to agree. in this situation there are times when software solution is better. like if you wanted to define how the 49way is going to react as a 4way or 8way. But if you don't want to do all that configuring this is the perfect solution. This is definately the second time I said that, possibly the third.
I'm sorry if you didn't understand anything I wrote. Let it go, leave it at that.
Now, let's get back to talking about the product.
I'd still like answers to how the dead spots are being handle, the diagonal when in 4 way mode, etc... That will tell you how this will "feel".
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As stated above... not completely explaining the functions lead to misunderstandings.
Unfortunately, there are always individuals whom, the more you explain things to, the more they "think" they find wrong with something. The only way to deal with them is to not talk to them at all, but you never realize that until after you've already spoken to them.
So what you are saying... is that the system will not ignor diagnols... but really use a "half-circle/half-circle" type of sensing for the 2way for instance - with a small deadzone.
Cut the box in half and draw a line down the center. Everything on one side = A and everything on the other = B. That's the simple one.
As for the new style of 49ways... I have a low opinion of them. They are essentailly limited analog joysticks. And for that - one wouldnt even need an encoder.
It's all in the implementation. Perhaps you would have a higher opinion of them if you actually used one with appropriate support. The 49-ways are only limited in the Analog sense. When used "digitally" they can sense 40 more positions than an 8-way. Sounds rather "non-limiting" to me.
And how does even a "limited analog joystick" not require an encoder (assuming you meant an interface of some sort)?
The older Sinistar / Arch Rival joys used an X shaped band to make it harder to reach the edges of the stick. Like a gas pedal -vs- a brake.
Well, they went obsolete for a reason. Perhaps it was because of this engineering oversight?
The new joys make it hard to play sinistar... as you are able to move too fast - on accident. The additional resistence of the older joys - make it easer to keep your speeds under much better control. Staying slower while collecting the crystals.. yet able to dash off like a rocket with a hard push.
I'm guessing you never tried it with an 8-way. The "Progressive" mode was incorporated to address just those types of concerns. But since you haven't tried it.....
So, if you want an analog joystick that feels like a bat handle joystick.. and has less sensativity than an analog - then fine.
*sigh*, sensitivity is not at issue, and the 49-way doesn't purport to be "analog" any more than a P360 does. Just so this is clear to anyone reading this, "This will NOT replace an analog joystick for applications requiring such to operate properly" I didn't think I alluded otherwise.
But lets get real here.
(still waiting)
First off, I have built a sinistar stick from an analog joystick. I have felt and
playtested the differences between the center mounted spring that was in it... and then the new rubber x mod that I added to it to make it function properly.
Well, to take similarly misplaced "purist" position, I present for your consideration that because you used a 3rd party or heaven forbid, "home made" rubber spider, then the control you possess is no more "authentic" than the ones you are condemning. It appears, sir, that your snobbery knows no bounds and that you clearly believe that as long as it is you who posses it , it can be nothing other than "right" and "just."
Ok, I was just having a bit of fun on that one. Sorry....:)
I also picked up the real sinistar stick for kicks. Simular feel to the one I made. However - mines a bit stiffer, which makes it even easier to control the ship. This may also be due to the centering spider on the original being aged.
Either that, or yours is not authentic and should be discarded immediately. Ok, a little more fun :)
And, Im not 'pooing' your product. Rather, Im simply stating that its not a perfect solution to the serious classic game player. .. and that it would be more benificial to the typical gamer to have a 2-in-1 encoder rather than all those features that really arnt that usefull for the masses. It also promotes the use of incorrect controls for games, thus making the game look to be poor or too hard.
Ok, now I understand. "Im not 'pooing' your product." and "It also promotes the use of incorrect controls for games, thus making the game look to be poor or too hard." aren't really as contradictory as my tired eyes would have me believe. Thanks for clearing that up for me..
The bottom line is this. If you haven't tried it, all you have is speculation. And based on some of the speculation, I'd say it was better left for those who were better at it (No-one not included here- - heh, bad grammar)
Buy one or wait for someone else to. Then you can get the real story. But if you are going to state that something sucks or has no merit or....without having any first hand knowledge, it can be viewed no other way than a biased attack. How would you see it were it directed at something you worked hard on?
RandyT
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"Unfortunately, there are always individuals whom, the more you explain things to, the more they "think" they find wrong with something. The only way to deal with them is to not talk to them at all, but you never realize that until after you've already spoken to them."
I could take that as some sort of snide attack on my intelligence. But Ill give you the benefit of the doubt. However... many here have a decent knowlege.. enough to build a cabnet even ::) :P
"It's all in the implementation. Perhaps you would have a higher opinion of them if you actually used one with appropriate support. The 49-ways are only limited in the Analog sense. When used "digitally" they can sense 40 more positions than an 8-way. Sounds rather "non-limiting" to me.
How about the arcades for "implementation"?!. NFL blitz uses them.
These new optical 49 way joys are merely an analog joystick replacement that was made optical because pots are more prone to wear and failures. This dosnt mean that an analog joystick isnt better... in fact, they are as they have more steps of detection.
As for digitally controller use... sure, maybe it can outperform a micro joy in detection. But, mechanics are a whole other story. Is the joy too sensative in 8way? or too slow in reactions. Do you feel the corners... or is it rounded? Not feeling them - esp in fighters... may be hard to pull off moves for instance... yet on some games, you do not want corners... so you roll the stick along a smooth circle
(time pilot, gyrus, robotron..ect) These are MECHANICAL differences. While you can make a joy perform simular - those joys are not mechanically changable... thus some games just wont be that great with them.
And... IMOP, this interface is all about sinistar right? I mean... its the only game to really use it that is hugely popular. IE: You can play nfl blitz fine with an analog joypad. But you cant play Sinistar with an analog anything... not just because of encoders... but because of true mechanics.
To make a sinistar controller and use a new style optical 49 way... and you still will not fly as good as the Real controller. Why? Mechanics.
Some solutions are not solvable with encoders.
"And how does even a "limited analog joystick" not require an encoder (assuming you meant an interface of some sort)?""
I said.. that since those new controllers are a limited analog joystick... then why bother? Why not just hack an analog joystick.. which basically comes with its own encoder.
"Well, they went obsolete for a reason. Perhaps it was because of this engineering oversight?"
There is a reason... but not what you think. Not a good reason...
Arcade "ENGINEERS" in the 80's spent a ton of man hours to design the most PERFECT controllers for the said game that was being worked on. This controller had to work reliable in harsh abuse situations, and yet, control the character as close to flawless as possible. No clumbsiness... or way that the player could fault the controls for his loss of life.
These guys may have made hundreads of prototypes for a single game. These guys are professionals.. with degrees! Tested these things out extensively. Had others test them. Retested them. Fixed the issues...ect. They are not all to be taken so lightly. There are many many reasons why they chose a paticular shape for something... or a set amount of travel... or a RUBBER SPIDER vs a Spring.
The reason for optics in sinistar was again, due to wear and expense. However, the use of a spider x was a genious move... and done specifically for many reasons.
Take a typical analog pc joy out. Slowly exert light pressure as you move it
from center to left. What do you feel? You feel initailly - right near the center...
a sort of resistence. Its quite heavy feeling... but, once you just pass it... the thing moves very fast. Basically, theres almost no resistence after that small zone.
This area - I believe is called the deadzone. Its a small center area that is best to avoid sensing... as its too hard to control smoothly in that area. Its like driving into a speedbump then falling into a pothole - and trying not to spill a tall glass of water.
With sinistar that area would have been a disaster to use when flying slow (near the center zone)..
The typical analog joystick 'center spring' works on leverage... however, the x band (rubber spider) works quite different.
With the x band.. the center area is smooth as butter. No bumps. Nothing to interfere with your delicate control manuvers near the center. In fact - nothing to interfere all the way through full motion.
The other thing, is that the Xband makes it increasingly harder to push the shaft twords the edge. This makes it easier to keep from sloppily sliding like ice between the center and the edge. This almost creates the illusion of a higher resolution method of detection... but its all due to ingenious mechanics.
The only problem with this stick... was that the spider eventually stressed out and broke. This wasnt really that much of a problem, as I believe they lasted a Long time before that happened. My guess is that the game itself was basically on the way out before the rubbers failed.
Ok - lets flip Years later...
Many companies changed the way they built thier games. One major thing they did.. was allow people like Happs, to design and build generic controls for them. This helped to save money on designs and supply issues.
However.. happs wasnt always a perfect solution. If you look arround, you will see that there are like 3 different joystick designs that came before the Ultimates.
Ultimates had issues too, and got Comps. Later, supers appeared. Theres many reason they dumped leafs... but again, not always good ones.
Happs were more concered with durrability than with looks or comfort. Maybe this also helped to keep development costs down.
Look at happs 2way shifters for example...
- Ugly
- Horrible Bat feels uncomfortable (instead of sweet balltop)
- Shaft is too Fat. Uncomfortable in-between fingers.
Of course, I may be wrong in that Happs were givin these new designs by the companies thenselves... of course by then, these companies had completely changed.
Long gone were the days of proto controllers and original games. Everything took on a "me too" attitude. Low cost - high profits. Easy difficulty... add coins in order to win instead of skill...
The new style 49 ways are a part of that. They were made in order to be more reliable. That dosnt mean better.
They also have that dreaded center spring speedbump. However... in blitz it hardly mattered. Its not really an accuracy game like sinistar. They are Ok for non accurate analog games.
For Sinistar... they stink.
"I'm guessing you never tried it with an 8-way. The "Progressive" mode was incorporated to address just those types of concerns. But since you haven't tried it....."
Progrgessive mode? Well, you have 6 registers of speed in one direction... but, that still dosnt change the mechanics. If I slip from ranges 2 to 6 accidentally cause its sloppy... ill be litterally out of control. Same goes for a standard analog control.
Even if you modify the values of the speeds... your still slipping thru 4 speeds on accident... which is a mechanical issue. Think of running on ice... you have hard time controling where you stop. However.. pop on a pair of Spiked metal studded boots... and now you have the ability to stop accurately, (the metal boots = the rubber "X" )
I do not have to Use your encoder to understand physics and mechanics.
"*sigh*, sensitivity is not at issue, and the 49-way doesn't purport to be "analog" any more than a P360 does. Just so this is clear to anyone reading this, "This will NOT replace an analog joystick for applications requiring such to operate properly" I didn't think I alluded otherwise."
So.. your admitting that this was made more or less to use as a digital means
of control. IE: non swappable ultimate uber joystick. I can see what you mean... just not sure if the mechanics will be as good as the real things.
"Well, to take similiarly misplaced "purist" position, I present for your consideration that because you used a 3rd party or heaven forbid, "home made" rubber spider, then the control you possess is no more "authentic" than the ones your condemning. It appears, sir, that your snobbery knows no bounds and that you clearly believe that as long as it is you who posses it , it can be nothing other than "right" and "just."
Ok, I was just having a bit of fun on that one. Sorry....Smiley"
heh. funny stuff. However.. its not snobbery. Im simply making points about good control. And... its yes, its not arcade authentic. In fact, it probably wouldnt work - but, mame allows analog pot input...
and so the conbinations of controllable speeds is greater than the actual controller
in this instance. If mame acted exactly as the arcade.. then the added resistence may not really matter. But I also suspect that they kept the resistence a little lower so that the thing could be used in other games like bubbles and arch rivals -
where speed control wasnt as critical.
"Either that, or yours is not authentic and should be discarded immediately. Ok, a little more fun"
I can tell you that it certainly is a true sinistar controller. Ive always been fasinated by mechanics. Took every toy appart that I owned : ) And it got me
to be able to actually manage an arcade at one point in my life. I was fixing them
for 3 yrs... so Im very aware of what makes them tick. Im also very up on what
the older classics used interally.. and make it a point to find out if Im not sure. However... I played a Ton of the classics in the 80s... so most I know by memmory
alone. I also have some games, and collector friends that have classics as well... (that Ive been asked to fix on occassion) Anyways... my point is... Im very keen on what makes a game control well.. and how these controllers work mechanically.
btw - I am more than willing to admit when I am wrong. And one case was about leaf switches. I forgot about how much better they were for certain things because it had been so long... yet after a little roughness on the boards... I went to play some real leaf controlled games to make sure. Sure enough, I was worng.. and Im now a preacher of thier great glory : )
"The bottom line is this. If you haven't tried it, all you have is speculation. And based on some of the speculation, I'd say it was better left for those who were better at it"
What I have is experience with mechanics. In my opinion:
1) New style 49ways are not good for Sinistar
2) Using an old style 49way to play 8way fighters may be hard
(more resistence, and cant easily hit corners to feel what your doing)
3) Using a new style 49way to play fighters may be Ok.
4) Using a new/old style to play 8way leaf games may be rough..
(no smooth circular edge to run arround against)
5) Using a new/old to play 4way games will work be slightly odd
(a small delay when moving the extra distance of the corners, or
a floating in space feel if full extention not needed)
6) 2 way control simular. Will work fine.. but feel a tad awkwards,
(as you might sometimes move the joy in half circles instead of straight)
My main concern at the start of the thread was the way the digital end was handled. But now, I think youve got it ok for digital. However.. I personaly do not
think that mechanically it will be a better feel... and may lead to a lackend control because of the lack of guidence.
I am more concerned over the thought that the new style 49 ways will work well with sinistar. Thats my main reason for me even responding.
I feel that vendors should ask thier customers what features they want instead of being so secretive. Youll get a lot of beneficial feedback that otherwise may cause piitfalls or lower sales.
Maybe you wanted eveyone the kiss your butt. If thats so.. then let the Retroblast guy do a review on the thing. Unless it emits electrical shocks while playing...he will give it a 10 out of 10. lol ;D :P ::)
Im sorry if you take it as a personal attack. Its not meant to be that. Its simple feedback based on knowledge of mechanics... and a suggested feature rip in replace of dual controls. However... its probably too late for that. Anyways..
good luck.
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Looks cool! (btw, you will need to test the other sticks... what they output is different).
Have some questions and comments.
How many joysticks can it handle?
Do you both a linear / scaled range? Run sinister and make sure you can move in 3 different speeds. Depending on the mame driver that converts the analog -> digital... You just want to make sure you can.
As for the analog+ conversation. I use analog+ for my SNK rotaries... because it is faster and feels much quicker then going through a hardware convert to l's and r's.....
I use a Daves board for my 49 way. Why? I could go directly with analog+... But its a great joystick for a TON of other games. I use it with a lot with console emulation where you need analog. Great analog non-trigger flight stick. (btw, this is where the linear scale comes into play).
So I believe there is a REAL use for these boards. It allows you to use them with the windows version of blitz2000 (so you don't have to wait for a 10ghz PC to come out).
And I love the other restrictor modes... but I can only see these working with the happs49 ways... the spider would probably make the joysticks suck for many other games.
I would love to see someone do a full review and add it to their other joystick reviews... with games like SF ect.... hint hint hint
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Randy, put me down for 2. ;D
Great product that I have been looking for for awhile. thanks!
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Sometimes they had the hardware... and then implemented it into the controller code.. It wasn't always decided after it was done :)
But it doesn't matter. If you want some games to run the way you remember it... you need the right controls. Some games don't play well on some joysticks (try gyrus or timepilots with a happs comp or happs ultimate). And this is specifically what they are talking about here. Sinister doesn't play will without the spider. Sure you can get it to work.. but it doesn't feel right (ie like you remember playing it)
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man...and i thought you guys were BYOACers...
Yep.
randy has come to us offering us a great new plug and play controller and all that i hear is how we don't need it.
Nope.
What you heard, in the beginning, was "how's it work?".
That is the BYOAC Mantra.
When no real answers came from that, the questions switched to "How's it different from....?", and "Why not just use....?".
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What are the differences between the $22.95 "No-Solder" Eco Version and the $34.95 GP-Wiz49 MAX Interface Board? A couple of screws and some standoffs don't sound worth $12.
Also I have a mini-pac I currently use with a trackball and a spinner, what would this work alongside my mini-pac?
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While nice for standard 49 way...
I personally see the additional features as purely a novelty.
If playing a 2way game of galaga... and you accidentally press down+diagnol left...
then your move will not register. This will mean you will have made a costly pause.. and may have died as a result of the non action.
Statements like these make me think the unwritten rule stating that one should have some real experience with something before "poo-poo"ing it, should actually be put in writing.
I'm not sure what you are referring to with the above, but I wholeheartedly assure you that this does NOT happen.
While I can appreciate that you want to keep details of your work to yourself, you are the only one who can explain why this is not the case. If I'm to accept that this digital restrictor thing really is useful, I need to know what it does that MAME wouldn't.
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What are the differences between the $22.95 "No-Solder" Eco Version and the $34.95 GP-Wiz49 MAX Interface Board?
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What are the differences between the $22.95 "No-Solder" Eco Version and the $34.95 GP-Wiz49 MAX Interface Board? A couple of screws and some standoffs don't sound worth $12.
If you feel the screw-connects aren't worth $12, you don't have to pay for them. (Really, it's great that we get the option. $20 is a great price point for the GP encoders IMO.) You can add them yourself. In fact, I've considered doing exactly that with my GP-Wiz Eco...
...But then I realized that I really didn't want to deal with the extra work of setting up screw-terminals on a second board, connecting the first board to the second, and then connecting the controls... When I think about that, paying an extra $15 to have that stuff on the board doesn't sound so bad. :)
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What are the differences between the $22.95 "No-Solder" Eco Version and the $34.95 GP-Wiz49 MAX Interface Board? A couple of screws and some standoffs don't sound worth $12.
If you feel the screw-connects aren't worth $12, you don't have to pay for them. (Really, it's great that we get the option. $20 is a great price point for the GP encoders IMO.) You can add them yourself. In fact, I've considered doing exactly that with my GP-Wiz Eco...
...But then I realized that I really didn't want to deal with the extra work of setting up screw-terminals on a second board, connecting the first board to the second, and then connecting the controls... When I think about that, paying an extra $15 to have that stuff on the board doesn't sound so bad. :)
So the cheap one has just holes, the middle has pins soldered in, and the max has screw posts? The description in the message or the web site don't make that point very clear.
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While I can appreciate that you want to keep details of your work to yourself, you are the only one who can explain why this is not the case.
I thought I did a pretty good job of it, given that I didn't have any "inside" info.
If I'm to accept that this digital restrictor thing really is useful, I need to know what it does that MAME wouldn't.
The digital restrictor SHOULD prevent MAME from seeing data that it can't use (i.e. a diagonal signal in a 4-way game).
Again, I'm not SURE how it was implemented by Randy in this specific instance though.
Using the P360 for example, it is fully capable of sending MAME a diagonal input.
At that point MAME has to decide what to do with it.
The standard is for it to completely ignore any control input until the stick is back at a TRUE direction.
That results in HUGE dead spots in the corners.
The restrictor on the 49-way has two options for overcoming this:
1) It can ignore any TRUE diagonal (i.e. x=2, y=2), and send x=2/y=1 as Right and x=1/y=2 as Up.
This will create a deadspot in the stick along the EXACT diagonal path, but will be a smaller one than the P-360 has due to the increased resolution on the 49-way.
2) The grid can be weighted so that the TRUE diagonals send either a Right signal, or an Up signal, rather than sending unusable data.
I THINK this is the route Randy opted for, but only he can confirm that.
This method results in NO dead spot, and NO unusable data being sent to MAME.
Randy said that this device functions as closely as possible to the real thing, and this option is as close as I can get on a 49-way grid to a 4-way controller.
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So the cheap one has just holes, the middle has pins soldered in, and the max has screw posts?
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Yeah, I never wanted to setup mame analog +.... too lazy.
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Based on what I've heard from RandyT in this thread, here are the function grids for the modes, as best I can determine.
I'm still not SURE which grid he is using for the 4-way restrictor, but would bet that it is the 2nd or 3rd based on the fact that he doesn't mention dead spots in its functionality.
(http://home.comcast.net/~juniordog2/photos/49waygrids.jpg)
As you can see, the 2-way horizontal mode sends only a left or right signal based on the X coordinate only.
Also note that, in the 2nd and 3rd grids for 4-way, there is NO way for MAME to receive a diagonal signal.
This should make it respond exactly like a 4-way ELECTRONICALLY, although it will still allow you to travel outside the "normal" path of a 4-way MECHANICALLY.
I am also not POSITIVE of the implementation of the Rotated 4-way mode, but used the example that made the most sense to me.
I weighted the grid so that STICK STRAIGHT UP would yield an Up command in MAME, etc...
Likewise, RandyT may have made the diagonals a bit thicker on the 8-way mode by incorporating (x=2, y=1) and (x=1, y=2) into the diagonal, rather than mapping them to their true direction.
I used their true direction based on the fact that, if the stick is farther right than up, you probably meant for it to send a right signal, rather than a diagonal.
This limits the diagonals as much as possible, resulting in more shots going to the true directions, and less to the diagonals, on Robotron.
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Randy --
Thanks for continuing to push the frontier in this hobby! You and a few other dedicated souls continue to develop products that make a real difference. If it works as advertized, I think this is a revolutionary product for cab builders -- especially commercial cab builders making products for non-technical types. Kudos and good luck!
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Pardon my ignorance, I have 2 questions.
Do many games use/need a 49-way joystick?
For Randy T.: Will this product work with 8-ways, possibly eliminating the need for 4 to 8-way switchable type sticks?
Love the idea of being able to play Congo Bongo and Qbert diagonally without having a frankenpanel with several dedicated joysticks.
Economy is always an issue here too.
I am also one of those who has little patience for configuring software, this may be a useful product for me.
When someone get this in hand and has done some playtesting, Please post a review link for our reference.
Thanks Randy T. (and all BYOACers) !
ARCADIAC!
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randy,
will you be offering the happ 49-way in your store? it sounds like that would be the best way to go, since happ is so expensive, and if you had them, we could order everything at once.
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Pardon my ignorance, I have 2 questions.
Do many games use/need a 49-way joystick?
In mame, only 3 games.
You could use this as a psuedo analog stick for analog games and PC games which is the biggest advantage of this stick.
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No-one,
You may find it very interesting that only your 2-ways diagrams and one other are correct. :)
The rest were some of the first iterations that didn't work properly for one reason or another. But you certainly have the right idea.
And you are correct in that the host never gets data that it needs to try to translate into something useful. The profoundly overlooked difference is that the hardware now makes ALL the decisions about how things are translated, not the software. And regardless of what has been said in this thread, anyone with any experience with these sticks knows that there is very little, if any, room for adjustment with these grids. Either they behave as they should, or they do not. There are NO, and I stress this, NO in-betweens. What works well is based entirely on the behaviour of the mechanisms, not a theoretical grid pattern in which you are free to play.
And this is the point I have been trying make here. What you think should work, doesn't, and what you think shouldn't, does.
If I posted the actual maps, the naysayers would have a field day espousing what they think they know about them.
The only way you can really judge this is to actually use one. But I already see a few orders, so at least some will be finding out for themselves. :)
RandyT
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Hey,
So on another note - any options with this encoder for letting the PC host software tell the encoder which mapping to use, rather than having the user switch manually?
The choice of the correct mapping seems invariably tied to what software is running - and this is something the PC always knows. The user generally knows what's running, too - but they shouldn't have to be involved in something that could be so easily automated...
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If I posted the actual maps, the naysayers would have a field day espousing what they think they know about them.
Of course.
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Hey,
So on another note - any options with this encoder for letting the PC host software tell the encoder which mapping to use, rather than having the user switch manually?
The choice of the correct mapping seems invariably tied to what software is running - and this is something the PC always knows.
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Another question of mine that got lost in the middle of it all. Your board is powering the the joystick, right?
If yes then there's another advantage of this interface.
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Just a slight correction to NoOne
"although it will still allow you to travel outside the "normal" path of a 4-way MECHANICALLY."
Yes it allows the travel on the outside of the 'square' - but - a true 4ways
'mechanical' path is NOT square. Its more like a diamond. (or at least, a square on a 45 degree angle) This keeps the reactions a bit tighter as you do not have to all the way into the corners.
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And this is the point I have been trying make here.
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Thanks for all the products, it's really great to have options to try out.
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Hey,
So on another note - any options with this encoder for letting the PC host software tell the encoder which mapping to use, rather than having the user switch manually?
The choice of the correct mapping seems invariably tied to what software is running - and this is something the PC always knows. The user generally knows what's running, too - but they shouldn't have to be involved in something that could be so easily automated...
No, RandyT hasn't described anything like that.
The PC doesn't always know what the controls actually are (hence the controls.dat project).
The PC always knows what game is running, and knowing what game is enough information to know what type of controls you need. (Whether or not MAME knows the answers, the answers are there, and hence this is something that can and should be automated in the front-end.)
Because Randy hasn't described anything like that is precisely why I asked him! :)
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No, RandyT hasn't described anything like that.
The PC doesn't always know what the controls actually are (hence the controls.dat project).
The PC always knows what game is running, and knowing what game is enough information to know what type of controls you need.
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See, Randy, I TOLD you they would want to know about the mappings! ;)
Look, folks, Randy's playtested this thing, and built his grids to PLAY well, rathen than LOOK good on the grid. No, he hasn't given me any insider info (though I've been asking! ;) ) about how the grids map, but he did explain that the mechanical properties of the Midway stick make it react a little different than the way the grids look on paper, and he's built his mapping to correct for that. Do I want to SEE the grids myself? Yes! But I'm not going to get to, because he feels he's done a lot of work to make his grid mappings work better than the other option on the market, and is understandably concerned that current or future competitors might piggyback off of that work. I don't LIKE not having the grids to see, but I can UNDERSTAND his reasoning.
As for whether somebody SHOULD be using this thing and a 49 way instead of digitals and an analog- Why are we arguing over this? Obviously, the BEST solution is always to use the correct, original controlls for each and every game. How many people here do that? This is an OPTION, that allows us to "get away" with using one stick for everything. I mean, it covers 7 different sticks! It'll work near perfect on some games, pretty good on some, barely acceptably on some, and downright poorly on some. Whether it's worth it to save the $$ and the control panel real estate for the other 6 sticks, is a question for each individual user, and therefore a waste of time to argue over.
But really, even if you don't want to use the "digitally restricted" modes, it's still nice to have another 49-way option on the market. Personally, I AM going to use a real horizontal 2-way, a real vertical 2-way, a real 4-way, a real diagonal 4-way, a real 8-way, and a real analog stick, plus the 49-way, so if I take one of these instead of the SJC, I'll probably only be using it for 49 way games most of the time.
So, Thanks Randy!
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Randy- You said something about discontinuing support for the Williams 49 if it proved impossible to get good mappings for it.. Don't you dare! ;D I plan on using Williams 49s instead of the Midway 49s, for more or less the reasons Xiaou2 listed in his novel-length post- the increasing resistance felt as you move further from the center due to the spider. I HUNGER for Sini-Star! Even if the restriction mappings don't work out to your satisfaction (which I doubt, I bet you find they're much more straightforward than on the Midway), please leave the code in, so I can use 'em as 49s.
And since SirP's already brought up custom mappings (see, I told ya again!) what about a 49-way only version, with 7 different levels of "progressive-ness" on the progressive scaling?
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I'd be really nice if someone could start repro'ing the Williams 49way as well... I'm aware that there are only so few of them in existence....
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See, Randy, I TOLD you they would want to know about the mappings!
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I'd want to know some idea on how this thing is going to work before I buy it. Unless RandyT is going to give a money back guarantee.
Done.
Money back guarantee for the No-Solder and MAX versions.
So, how many can I put you down for? :)
RandyT
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And this is the point I have been trying make here. What you think should work, doesn't, and what you think shouldn't, does.
RandyT
I don't think this will work, so you mean this does?
Hehe. Chaos restriction mode......
RandyT
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No, RandyT hasn't described anything like that.
The PC doesn't always know what the controls actually are (hence the controls.dat project).
The PC always knows what game is running, and knowing what game is enough information to know what type of controls you need. (Whether or not MAME knows the answers, the answers are there, and hence this is something that can and should be automated in the front-end.)
Because Randy hasn't described anything like that is precisely why I asked him! :)
SirP gave you the answer, go search on the controls.dat project and you'll understand it. I'm sure the project could use your help.
Thanks, I'm familiar with controls.dat. But my question wasn't about controls.dat or about how to set up a front-end. My question was whether the GP-Wiz49 would, now or in the future, support switching modes via software.
I could assume the answer I've been given is correct. I could also have assumed that was the case from the beginning. I'm not interested in assumptions.
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Darn you, Randy!
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[The PC always knows what game is running, and knowing what game is enough information to know what type of controls you need.
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I'd want to know some idea on how this thing is going to work before I buy it. Unless RandyT is going to give a money back guarantee.
Done.
Money back guarantee for the No-Solder and MAX versions.
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Is your mode button also the shazaam button? I assume this can be used as a direct replacement tot he keywiz.
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I have happs super joysticks at the moment, I like them ok for most games, but my wife complains constantally that pac-man doesn't play right. Would it play better with this and a happs 49 way joystick, or a t-stick plus?
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Pacman would play the best with an actual 4way. Putting this 49way in 4way mode will be like if you took your 8way and disabled the diagonals in mame. You can push diagonals but they won't register.
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Putting this 49way in 4way mode will be like if you took your 8way and disabled the diagonals in mame. You can push diagonals but they won't register.
BZZZZT!!! Oh, Sorry. That answer is incorrect. Johnny, tell him about the fine parting gifts we have for him...... :D
Not the case at all. The accuracy of the 4 way will amaze and astound ;)
RandyT
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Pacman would play the best with an actual 4way. Putting this 49way in 4way mode will be like if you took your 8way and disabled the diagonals in mame. You can push diagonals but they won't register.
Well no Duh, Randy said they played as close to real as you could get. I was pretty much asking him if he thought his new solution was as good as or better than something like a t-stick plus, or a happs superjoystick for 4 way games.
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Putting this 49way in 4way mode will be like if you took your 8way and disabled the diagonals in mame.
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If I buy one (or two) of these, I would probably just be using it for 49way. I will have a modular panel, so there will be no set amount of buttons on the panel at any given time. Does this default to 49way mode? Or even better, can you set the default to any of the modes?
Thanks,
Paul
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I have happs super joysticks at the moment, I like them ok for most games, but my wife complains constantally that pac-man doesn't play right.
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I sent this as a PM yesterday, but the topic's been on fire pretty persistently, so I'll ask in the open..
What all would be necessary to hook up the Williams 49 to the new GP-Wiz49?
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And this is the point I have been trying make here.
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Putting this 49way in 4way mode will be like if you took your 8way and disabled the diagonals in mame. You can push diagonals but they won't register.
BZZZZT!!! Oh, Sorry. That answer is incorrect. Johnny, tell him about the fine parting gifts we have for him...... :D
Not the case at all. The accuracy of the 4 way will amaze and astound ;)
RandyT
But then it isn't a 4way as 4ways should recognize diagonals. To be super accurate you'd have to physically limit the stick from moving diagonal. So how much more accurate can you get then not registering diagonals?
An 8-way joystick is divided into eight zones - if they were perfectly symmetrical, they'd be 45 degrees each. But for joysticks with square restrictors, the diagonal zones probably take up more space on the arc than the cardinal directions. But the basic idea here is that the switches register only 8 possible directions, so no amount of post-processing can make any reasonable guess about which direction a diagonal is supposed to be when in 4-way mode.
The 49-way joystick delivers more resolution. That means that if the joystick is pushed in a diagonal that's "mostly up" but still in a direction that an 8-way would register as a diagonal, there's potential for software to assign a more favorable direction to that reading. Randy presumably spent a bunch of time playtesting different possible mappings and found some he likes. I think it's true, what he says, about mappings being counter-intuitive. That's often the case with software and UI - something might seem perfectly reasonable but it's only by testing in the proper context that you find out what really works.
I'd definitely agree with you that for 4-way games, the 4-way restrictor plate is very important... Personally I have a hard time believing that a 49-way with a custom mapping and no specialized restrictor plate can deliver a comparable experience. But I guess I'd have to try it to know for sure, right?
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Is your mode button also the shazaam button? I assume this can be used as a direct replacement tot he keywiz.
There is no Shazaaam! button on the GP-Wiz line, only the KeyWiz.
RandyT
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I know someone asked what you'd use this for.
I'd like to clarify my answer.
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There is no Shazaaam! button on the GP-Wiz line, only the KeyWiz.
Ouch. Sorry man, but that just lost my sale. If I got one I'd want to replace my existing 8ways with a 49way. I'd only want one encoder since I have a removable panel. And I use my pause button as a shift key, and not only for mame.
That's not going to work for me. You almost had me until that. That will definately not work with a removable panel on only have one cord going out of the panel and only one plug to plug into if I had both my ipac and a wiz49 in the cabinet.
Unless you see an easy way around it.
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There is no Shazaaam! button on the GP-Wiz line, only the KeyWiz.
Ouch. Sorry man, but that just lost my sale. If I got one I'd want to replace my existing 8ways with a 49way. I'd only want one encoder since I have a removable panel. And I use my pause button as a shift key, and not only for mame.
...
Unless you see an easy way around it.
Hmmmm......I have an idea that might just work..... I'll let you know where it ends up.......
RandyT
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I'm going to try to get to soem of these now....sorry.
When you refer to raw49 and progressive49 is this similar to linear vs exponetial scaling?
To the best of my knowledge, yes. I did not reverse engineer the board that uses that terminology, so I can't say that it is the same, only that it addresses what I perceived to be the goal of those modes.
RandyT
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There is no Shazaaam! button on the GP-Wiz line, only the KeyWiz.
Ouch.
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Looks cool! (btw, you will need to test the other sticks... what they output is different).
Have some questions and comments.
How many joysticks can it handle?
One 49-way per interface and as many conventional ones as will fit on the inputs.
Do you both a linear / scaled range?
Yes. No problems.
And I love the other restrictor modes... but I can only see these working with the happs49 ways... the spider would probably make the joysticks suck for many other games.
I'll evaluate the stick when it arrives. There may be some work ahead to implement it properly, but I've been pleasantly surprised before. Obviously, I will keep everyone updated.
Thanks,
RandyT
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" Arcade "ENGINEERS" in the 80's spent a ton of man hours to design the most PERFECT controllers for the said game that was being worked on. This controller had to work reliable in harsh abuse situations, and yet, control the character as close to flawless as possible. No clumbsiness... or way that the player could fault the controls for his loss of life.
These guys may have made hundreads of prototypes for a single game. These guys are professionals.. with degrees! Tested these things out extensively. Had others test them. Retested them. Fixed the issues...ect. They are not all to be taken so lightly. There are many many reasons why they chose a paticular shape for something... or a set amount of travel... or a RUBBER SPIDER vs a Spring.
You must not have worked in the industry. A common philosophy is, "KISS" and "Don't reinvent the wheel". The industry uses many components not because of years of R&D research but cost effectiveness. This isn't NASA, it's the gaming industry. First code, then hardware implementation. Cost effectiveness and Timeliness play a huge factor in game development. You would be shocked to see the actual amount of "testing" that actually went on. Due to patents, you'll see different designs but similar principles. Perfection isn't a design consideration.
Thank You for posting this. You took the words right out of my mouth.
I still remember the first time I held the elusive WICO "grommet" in my hand and thought "I just know WICO didn't have these made specially for joystick centering" and set out to find out what they really were.
Well, I found them. Suffice it to say that they have nothing to do with the Arcade industry, or joystick controllers. In fact, they are not even designed to have those kinds of stresses put on them, which is probably why they wear out after time. They were a stock part that served a purpose they weren't designed for. The engineer that designed the part originally probably got a good laugh when he heard how it was being used. :)
RandyT
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Pacman would play the best with an actual 4way. Putting this 49way in 4way mode will be like if you took your 8way and disabled the diagonals in mame. You can push diagonals but they won't register.
Well no Duh, Randy said they played as close to real as you could get. I was pretty much asking him if he thought his new solution was as good as or better than something like a t-stick plus, or a happs superjoystick for 4 way games.
Well I guess the no response means the t-stick plus will be much better than this and a happs 49 way for the majority of games.
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Well I guess the no response means the t-stick plus will be much better than this and a happs 49 way for the majority of games.
No response means everyone is distracted by other things at the moment.
Pretty much ANYTHING will be better than a Super/Comp/Ultimate on 4-way games.
The T-stiks do a decent job of 4-way, but alot of people don't like the stiff spring/short throw on them.
The J-stik is a little more liked because it has a longer throw and softer spring.
Nobody except Randy knows how well the 49-way works in 4-way mode.
All that said, I've never seen a GOOD substitute for a dedicated 4-way.
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another "slightly" off topic question...
Think this'll make games like Qbert and Congo Bongo easier to play using the 49way and Randy's new product?
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RandyT,
Does the interface have to be programmed at every startup/hotswap, or does it retain the last value during power-off?
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Well no Duh, Randy said they played as close to real as you could get. I was pretty much asking him if he thought his new solution was as good as or better than something like a t-stick plus, or a happs superjoystick for 4 way games.
Well I guess the no response means the t-stick plus will be much better than this and a happs 49 way for the majority of games.
Believe it or not, I don't own a T-stick plus. So any answer I might give would be pure speculation.
But it shouldn't be hard to guess what will be permanently installed on *my* control panel.
RandyT
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RandyT,
Does the interface have to be programmed at every startup/hotswap, or does it retain the last value during power-off?
It defaults to Raw49 mode on power loss.
And just so this isn't a one line post, to answer another question that was asked earlier, 49-way sticks will be available shortly at the GGG store along with all of the other goodies.
RandyT
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SirP- you wanted to get the mode selection without 8 buttons on the panel. I figure it can be done with fewer, here's how:
Randy says the mode button is a standalone, with no other function, so that's one right there. Of course, since it's not used during play, it could be a non-arcade button, so you could mount a really small button anywhere to do this job, even conceal it inside the coin door or whatever. (As far as that goes, you could conceal all 8, but let's assume you don't want to do that.) That leaves 7, one for each of the modes.
When pushed, the mode select button essentially shifts button inputs 1-7 from their standard function to "Mode Select". If you've got coin1, coin2, start1 and start2 on your machine, there's 4 already Got 4players, then you're covered right there. If not, that still only leaves 3 "fire" buttons to go on the panel. If you've got admin buttons, mouse buttons, etc.- you can use those.
Even if your other buttons are wired to another encoder (Ipac, Keywiz) that has their coin, start, and player buttons wired there can use this trick too, they just have to do some more wiring. Double wire your buttons to both encoders, but wire a toggle switch in the circuits so they're only live to one encoder at a time. Wire the toggle to a relay off of your mode-select button and you're good to go. Hmm, there ought to be a way to skip the relay- maybe a DPDT in the mode select button? 3P3T?
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Well no Duh, Randy said they played as close to real as you could get. I was pretty much asking him if he thought his new solution was as good as or better than something like a t-stick plus, or a happs superjoystick for 4 way games.
Well I guess the no response means the t-stick plus will be much better than this and a happs 49 way for the majority of games.
Believe it or not, I don't own a T-stick plus. So any answer I might give would be pure speculation.
But it shouldn't be hard to guess what will be permanently installed on *my* control panel.
RandyT
Well I guess I should have asked if you thought the 49 way/controller was a better solution than the 4/8 way joysticks that you sell. 2 of them will cost me $80 or so, a controller and one 49 way will cost me about the same, so I'm not sure which way to go.
Only other worry I have is my mini-pac. I guess, I'd have to use the 49 way controller for most inputs and just use mini-pac for coins and player 1/2, since buttons 1-8 are used to set the mode, or I would have to add a bunch of extra buttons.
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Where have I been the past few days!
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SirP- you wanted to get the mode selection without 8 buttons on the panel. I figure it can be done with fewer, here's how:
My thought was to use an 8-position rotary switch, and a DPST momentary to trigger everything.
That is assuming that you don't have to depress and hold the mode button prior to selecting the mode.
The DPST would ground BOTH the mode switch and the rotary simultaneously, but cut off ground to both when released, so that the rotary wouldn't send any data to the encoder when the programming button was not depressed.
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SirP- you wanted to get the mode selection without 8 buttons on the panel. I figure it can be done with fewer, here's how:
Not a good solution for a swappable panel where the coin and start buttons are off the control panel.
A SPST pushbutton 8way rotary switch would be a good idea...
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First off, I have built a sinistar stick from an analog joystick.
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ok, i'd just like to help randy out here a bit...
Only other worry I have is my mini-pac. I guess, I'd have to use the 49 way controller for most inputs and just use mini-pac for coins and player 1/2, since buttons 1-8 are used to set the mode, or I would have to add a bunch of extra buttons.
you could just make the player one and/or two buttons double up.
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My thought was to use an 8-position rotary switch, and a DPST momentary to trigger everything.
That is assuming that you don't have to depress and hold the mode button prior to selecting the mode.
The DPST would ground BOTH the mode switch and the rotary simultaneously, but cut off ground to both when released, so that the rotary wouldn't send any data to the encoder when the programming button was not depressed.
Build one of those onto your panel, and you could use it to play Frontline, Sherrif, Bandido, and Tin Star, too! Bonus!
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A SPST pushbutton 8way rotary switch would be a good idea...
I don't think the SPST would work without diodes.
Without diodes, any time you pressed whatever button corresponded to the selection on the rotary, it would go into programming mode.
You MIGHT be able to get away with it if you programmed it, and then set the rotary to the empty 8th position before playing though.
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i wonder if slikstik is gonna jump on this bandwagon and get us some stainless steel 49-way sticks. if i heard right, there supposed to be making a small batch anyways. maybe they'll make it a regular in their store.
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Anyone got measurements for the Happ 49 ways? They don't have mounting info on their site.
Depth from top of mounting plate to bottom of base assembly is all I need (including bottom tip of stick if it protrudes).
BTW, looking at the photo, it looks like the Happ ones may have some kind of rubber restraint on the bottom. Am I mistaken?
Thanks.
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I'm gonna repeat my question from page 2, I didn't really get the answer to this one--
For Randy T.: Will this product work with standard 8-ways, possibly eliminating the need for 4 to 8-way switchable type sticks?
I asked specifically because if MAME only supports 2 or 3 games that need 49-ways, it would really be wasteful to buy them in order to use this interface for Pacman or Congo Bongo.
Thanks again, ARCADIAC!
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you could use the extra button slots for a non-analog hjoystick if you wanted, but it wont take advantage of the 49 way features.
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Will this product work with standard 8-ways, possibly eliminating the need for 4 to 8-way switchable type sticks?
It will work in PLACE OF a standard 8-way, but not WITH it--other than the 8-way can be connected to the button inputs, just like any other encoder.
I asked specifically because if MAME only supports 2 or 3 games that need 49-ways, it would really be wasteful to buy them in order to use this interface for Pacman or Congo Bongo.
The niche for this interface is so that you can have a one-stick-does-all solution on your CP.
While there are only a few games that NEED a 49-way, there are many that can USE a 49-way with this interface.
You can use the stick on 49-way, 8-way, 4-way, rotated 4-way, and 2-way games, as well as many of the analog stick games.
The only games I KNOW will not be playable are the ones requiring the full resolution of an analog stick.
Notable amongst these is StarWars.
With a real analog, the aiming grid is 255x255.
With the 49-way, you can only aim at 49 of these points.
What will happen is that your crosshairs will jump to the next point on the grid, rather than tracking smoothly.
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I'm gonna repeat my question from page 2, I didn't really get the answer to this one--
For Randy T.: Will this product work with standard 8-ways, possibly eliminating the need for 4 to 8-way switchable type sticks?
You can attach a 4 or 8 way to the extra inputs, but it will not provide any additional benefit when used in this manner.
The DRS Modes are specific to the 49-way sticks.
RandyT
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i wonder if slikstik is gonna jump on this bandwagon and get us some stainless steel 49-way sticks. if i heard right, there supposed to be making a small batch anyways. maybe they'll make it a regular in their store.
I have these in progress as well....
RandyT
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Thanks all for helping to clear my befuddled head on this! ARCADIAC!
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i wonder if slikstik is gonna jump on this bandwagon and get us some stainless steel 49-way sticks. if i heard right, there supposed to be making a small batch anyways. maybe they'll make it a regular in their store.
I have these in progress as well....
RandyT
Will the versaball handles work with 49-ways?
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Yeah, a balltop would be nice.
Oh, and there's no possible way to interpolate the outputs of an 8-way stick to make it act as a true 4-way, no matter what interface you're using!
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"You often say that I think I'm always right about everything, but you came right out of the gate with a thirst for RandyT blood"
I hardly think my comments - esp the initial comments were not angry in any way.
They were merely my Opinions. There is no bad blood between him and I... unless its him that has it twords me. He got offended by my opinions... and lashed out at me. I tried my best to avoid returning that.
My intent was to convey logical reasonings about propper controller feel and mechanics .. as sadly, it seems that all too latly these days, people are using impropper controls to once great games. Experiencing them in a way that makes them less controllable/enjoyable. And somehow... reveling happily in it thinking that is the perfect solution... which makes it all the more insanely sickening. The game designers would roll over in thier graves - if they were dead. Some of the live 80s game designers REFUSE to play thier own creations on mame cabs merely because of the impropper controls. What does that say?!
Randy has accused me for not trying his interface, and being able to critisize it. However... randy himself has not developed his product by first testing the very stick that IMOP makes the thing worth anything at all - a true sinistar stick.
He also did not ask the people for input into what features they might want BEFOREHAND... which would have also helped in better refinments... instead of lost sales, costly re-designs, ect.
And... If he can not handle an Opinion on his products - then surly there is a case of bruised Ego -vs- strengthening of knowlege and better product production.
Trust me.. I was in the same boat long ago... so I know what its like. Sorry... but Im just being honest and truthfull.
Egos here get a bit large at times... and need a propper checking.
Btw - I do not know everything... and Im not affraid to admit it. I will not lie about what I know... make stories up.. or tell you an Opinion is a Fact. If Im wrong, I will also not try to make it seem like Im right just to win an argument. However... I will offer and defend what I do know.
Could I have been more gentle? Maybe... but I do not think my comments were nasty at all. Could I have been down and disrespectfully nasty and rude? Of course... but hey, Im not that kind of person. (unless you Really deserve it. IE: Be nasty to me, and it may just bounce back)
Now as for you, Rob,... Its my opinion that your comment twords me is a bit of button pushing to make you feel better about yourself again. And Or maybe its to grab some more attention twords you.
Maybe you are just jealous that I didnt comment on your cab.
I hope you will someday find what makes you feel better about yourself so you do not have to push other peoples buttons.
Sincerely,
Steve
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Jody,
Not sure if you were being sarcastic... but:
http://www.xiaou2.homestead.com/arcade.html
Ive since decided to change my design to a sitdown rotation controller. Still working on the design.
I also am sorry - but not all the specifics are there about the Sinistik. Ive just never gotten arround to it. However... if theres any question, I will gladly answer them.
Im sure you could also do the same type of thing to an arcade analog stick.
(http://www.xiaou2.homestead.com/files/sinijoy_bottom_inside.jpg)
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i wonder if slikstik is gonna jump on this bandwagon and get us some stainless steel 49-way sticks. if i heard right, there supposed to be making a small batch anyways. maybe they'll make it a regular in their store.
I have these in progress as well....
RandyT
This is what I've been waiting for. Stainless steel may be nice, but nothing beats a red ball top. Do I remember correctly from a different thread that you are in the process of this and actually trying to get a different size ball as well?
Great job, keep the great products coming.
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Randy has accused me for not trying his interface, and being able to critisize it. However... randy himself has not developed his product by first testing the very stick that IMOP makes the thing worth anything at all - a true sinistar stick.
While support for the Williams would be "nice to have", It's time you faced the unpleasant fact that they are no longer in production. And whatever mechanism one is able to cobble together from "parts found around the house" is never going to compare to the real thing.
While I do have a sometimes self-defeating streak of compassion for users of obsolete products, my business sense keeps me from placing too much emphasis on it.
He also did not ask the people for input into what features they might want BEFOREHAND... which would have also helped in better refinments... instead of lost sales, costly re-designs, ect.
This is a pre-release posting and I have stated it as such. I haven't shipped a single unit yet, as I knew that there would be a last minute tweak that would come of the posting. I'm sorry I didn't crawl meekly to your doorstep to ask for your opinion as to what direction I should take my products. And re-designs cost me only my creative effort and a little time. Things I often don't consider fully when pricing my creations.
And... If he can not handle an Opinion on his products - then surly there is a case of bruised Ego -vs- strengthening of knowlege and better product production.
Trust me.. I was in the same boat long ago... so I know what its like. Sorry... but Im just being honest and truthfull.
Sounds to me like you are the captain. Opinions are fine and I love to hear them. But when you spew inaccuracies while denigrating something you don't fully "get", you have to expect that it won't be taken lightly.
To anyone else who might be curious as to the progress of this, I am currently implementing SirP's shifted buttons. This should be done and tested this evening.
RandyT
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Randy --
Please don't lose sight of the legitimate (and short) question posts above. They seem to get lost amongst the "War and Peace" posts and counter-posts...
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Randy, I think this is a great product idea. Anything that can help people reduce the amount of clutter on their panels is a great addition. I think that I'll be picking up a couple of them because I'd like to have multiple controls at my fingertips for whatever game I'm playing. I'm not a stickler for the original controls, I just want the best play experience possible without needing 10 different types of joysticks.
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Will the versaball handles work with 49-ways?
Unfortunately, no.
The 49-ways have a very narrow shaft compared to the IL style sticks, so they need a special version.
I may not end up with stainless. I was thinking perhaps a nice black-oxide with a translucent ball. :)
RandyT
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i'm with dema.
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Jody,
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http://www.xiaou2.homestead.com/arcade.html
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Sorry if this is off topic, but I hadn't given it any thought before reading this thread. How difficult is it to hook up a 49 way? I know nothing about them, and my search didn't yield any information. Is it the same as any other joystick? Someone said something about soldering.
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You can get RandyT's interface with screw terminals. So... easy.
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lol Thanks GGKoul ! :P
Guess I deserve that for the poor choice of wording : ) lol
I liked unclets design.. so I may try to go that route... but expand upon it.
Which leaves me a usless but functional rotating/locking base. I have no clue what to do with it... and seems kinda sad to rip it appart... maybe someone might want it..
Tho, the controls would have be stripped off.
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dema, as for actually hooking up to a 49-way, on the joystick end, ther is usually a fingerboard you must attach to.
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Hey Randy -- How about a special TRON restriction mode? Then we just need someone to develop a trigger-top ball...
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like that dang minipac....maybe i'll just desolder that too....
The minipac uses standard headers. Get an IDE cable and.... er...forgot what the small one is.
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Hey Randy -- How about a special TRON restriction mode? Then we just need someone to develop a trigger-top ball...
We'll talk about such things after people are using these and can actually see how well things work.
Then we'll talk about what can and can't be done with them. ;)
RandyT
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I'd order one, maybe 2 if my frontend could auto set the mode by calling a command line utility, so I didn't have to explain to my friends and family how to change the joystick.
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Sorry if this is off topic, but I hadn't given it any thought before reading this thread. How difficult is it to hook up a 49 way? I know nothing about them, and my search didn't yield any information. Is it the same as any other joystick? Someone said something about soldering.
The one pictured is simple.
You can use the bottom row of holes on the connector of an old floppy drive cable.
The floppy connector is the same size as the edge of the board on the 49-way, so it even looks nice when attached.
I have a nice close-up photo of the wires on mine. I'll post it and show which wires to cut/use when I find some time.
RandyT
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... as for connection, you still just have to find the appropriate female attachement thing and get your wires straight.
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Thanks Flinkly, that was the image I was going off of, and I was wondering if there was anything necessary beyond crimping. I appreciate the help.
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Sorry if this is off topic, but I hadn't given it any thought before reading this thread. How difficult is it to hook up a 49 way? I know nothing about them, and my search didn't yield any information. Is it the same as any other joystick? Someone said something about soldering.
The one pictured is simple.
You can use the bottom row of holes on the connector of an old floppy drive cable.
The floppy connector is the same size as the edge of the board on the 49-way, so it even looks nice when attached.
I have a nice close-up photo of the wires on mine. I'll post it and show which wires to cut/use when I find some time.
RandyT
Very cool idea.
I'm looking forward to the product. I'll email you some other newbie questions in the coming days before I order the encoder.
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I'll email you some other newbie questions in the coming days before I order the encoder.
If you post them here, or start a NEW thread entitled "n00b questions about 49-ways" then EVERYBODY will get the answers at once, and RandyT will only have to answer them once.
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What questions do you have?
between these two sites you can find most of the technical info on 49ways
http://epg3.tripod.com/sinistar.html
http://urebelscum.speedhost.com/49waySticks.html
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I was wondering if the GP-Wiz49 was compatible with other encoders. I bought and intended to use a couple mini-pacs but now I don't know if they'll serve a purpose. I'm guessing the Wiz49 needs the buttons and sticks to run through it so it can change the digital restrictor modes and use the stick. I figure I can use the minipac for the spinner and trackball, but can I also hook other buttons that I don't intend to use to swap modes up to them (if I actually needed more)? I just wasn't sure how this affected other encoders.
Also, stemming from this I wasn't sure if I needed one or two encoders. Again this would depend on whether certain buttons can run through the mini-pac or not.
Does the 49 way require any power, like the P360s, or is it fine on its own? And would I need to change the version of MAME I'm running in order to read the 49 way's directions?
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I was wondering if the GP-Wiz49 was compatible with other encoders.
It SHOULD work fine.
They are separate devices.
Unless there is an unexpected conflict of some sort, it shouldn't be any different than having a gamepad hooked up with the mini-pac--which is known to work.
I bought and intended to use a couple mini-pacs but now I don't know if they'll serve a purpose.
They will let you hook up your trackball and spinner, as you mentioned in your original post.
Alternately, you could sell them and use a single mouse hack from Oscar, and wire it up using the switching circuit diagrammed on his website.
I'm guessing the Wiz49 needs the buttons and sticks to run through it so it can change the digital restrictor modes and use the stick.
Yes, unless you hook up a "programming device" like we were discussing earlier in this thread.
I figure I can use the minipac for the spinner and trackball, but can I also hook other buttons that I don't intend to use to swap modes up to them (if I actually needed more)? I just wasn't sure how this affected other encoders.
They should all be seen as separate devices, so SHOULD work together.
You should also be able to hook up any extra buttons to the Mini-pac, if necessary.
Also, stemming from this I wasn't sure if I needed one or two encoders. Again this would depend on whether certain buttons can run through the mini-pac or not.
You need one GP-Wiz49 for each 49-way you plan to use.
I can't tell if you are planning for one or two sticks, but each needs its own interface.
Does the 49 way require any power, like the P360s, or is it fine on its own?
It gets its power through the interface.
The reason that the P360 needs external power is that there is not interface board for it.
It hooks directly to the encoder.
And would I need to change the version of MAME I'm running in order to read the analog directions?
I THINK that 49-way support is built into command line MAME, but will be corrected by someone shortly if it isn't.
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And would I need to change the version of MAME I'm running in order to read the analog directions?
I THINK that 49-way support is built into command line MAME, but will be corrected by someone shortly if it isn't.
you will have to reread one of my replies on uses for this.
49way support is not built into mame. The games that used 49way joys that are in mame are the williams driver (sinistar), the pigskin/arch rivals driver, and blitz.
Out of those, everything but blitz uses a hack to convert an analog joystick (IE your analog gamepad you have hooked up to your USB/gameport) to 49way approximation. That is why this interface will work with mame. The Wiz49 takes the 49way joystick and converts it to an analog joystick signal for the PC. Mame can then read that and within the driver for the game convert back to 49way inputs.
That said, you could use this interface as a pseudo analog joystick input for games that used analog joysticks. It's not going to have the precision but is more useful than an 8way joy to play those few games.
BTW, to get analog stick support for pigskin I think urebel and I made the changes in the late .60s of mame. Otherwise before that only sinistar had the analog stick hack.
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It's a nice product that fills a gap in the market but I think there's room for improvement.
The main problem for me is that it's USB only. I realise that USB is the future but I'm not yet ready to commit to a USB only solution because I still occasionally use DOS. It would be nice to have a ps/2 mode like the Ipacs, even if analogue wasn't available in that mode.
Also, what about game consoles? A lot of people want to interface their console to arcade controls but cannot do so because some games require an analogue joystick. This board might provide a solution if it could emulate a playstation gamepad (no need to emulate gamepads for other consoles as converters are available). Ok, I know a 49 way stick isn't true analogue but it might be good enough for many games.
I'd also like to reiterate what others have already said. There needs to be a way of changing the joystick's mode through software as well as by pressing buttons. And programmable customised grids would also be very useful.
One final thing. I agree with Paige. It's a bit silly of you to say the 7*7 grids you have used are proprietary and thus secret. It's not us, the ordinary customers, you need to worry about but your competitors. They will reverse engineer your boards whether you like it or not. And somehow I suspect your threat to stop producing any new products if anyone spills the beans will not deter them.
Hiding legitimate (and easily obtainable) information from potential customers is poor marketing IMHO. It's also poor marketing to ask for 'constructive comments' and then complain when you get them.
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like that dang minipac....maybe i'll just desolder that too....
The minipac uses standard headers.
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49way support is not built into mame.........That is why this interface will work with mame.
Which means that YES, command line MAME does support the 49-ways directly--in the context of the original question.
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It's a bit silly of you to say the 7*7 grids you have used are proprietary and thus secret.
For those who didn't "get it" yet, Randy didn't release them because it would CREATE more controversy than it STOPPED.
HE tested everything, and found that the grids he is using were the best FUNCTIONING, but don't work the way you THINK they would without TESTING them.
Releasing the ACTUAL grids would have lead to alot MORE "that won't work that way" posts, and he was trying to avoid that.
He validated that MY grids, though not EXACT to his grids, are FUNCTIONALLY correct, and has answered all the questions I originally asked to my satisfaction.
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Randy,
Just had an idea for mode selection and thought I'd ask if it would be feasable.
It seems alot of people are worried about 8 buttons for selecting the mode. Could you make the mode selectable by the joystick. In other works hold down the Mode button and move the joystick up to select 49 way - Up Right to select progressive....etc.
I am no technician so I thought I would throw the idea out and see how it lands.
Thank you for attempting to provide another solution to this community.
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HE tested everything, and found that the grids he is using were the best FUNCTIONING, but don't work the way you THINK they would without TESTING them.
Actually, were there beta testers? Was there more than one person giving input on what "feels" right since that's subjective.
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Which means that YES, command line MAME does support the 49-ways directly--in the context of the original question.
And would I need to change the version of MAME I'm running in order to read the analog directions?
I THINK that 49-way support is built into command line MAME, but will be corrected by someone shortly if it isn't.
Yes, in regards to the original question, to get this interface to work with something other than sinistar you just need a version of mame newer than somewhere in the .60s.
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Wow this really is a great innovation... very cool indeed! :)
Now one question about this. This uses the software/hardware to "restrict" the directions that the joystick will register. That's cool and all, but don't people usually prefer a 4-way (instead of 8-way) to play 4-way games because the joystick is PHYSICALLY restricted to only 4-way movement? It's all about the 'feel' of the joystick. How does the 49-way joystick feel when you are 'virtually' restricting it to 4-way motion? Does it feel odd? Or do you feel like you are hitting a lot of blank spots? Or feel like the joystick is unresponsive if you don't move it in just the right position?
I'm just curious about this. I'll probably end up buying a couple of these interfaces when I get around to building my next cabinet anyways :)
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Wow this really is a great innovation... very cool indeed!
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Thank you NoOne and Poonga. I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions.
When I saw that MameAnalog+ was being described in a couple places I began to wonder what domino effect it would have on my plans going forward.
Thank you for the answers.
I'm looking forward to their release, so sign me up for a couple, Randy.
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That's my vision of it as well.
Most people will guide the stick to SOMEWHERE within the correct zone, but it won't guide itself, like it would with a 4-way restrictor on it.
I don't know if Randy found it necessary to go to the next step with the logic circuits for this, or not.
The next step would be to have the logic chips HOLD the current state through the dead zones, until the stick reaches the zone for the next direction.
Based on what I've heard him say, that was probably not necessary for proper functioning.
As 1UP said, the biggest problem with the software restricted 8-way is not that it TRAVELS into the diagonals, but that it doesn't send any usable data while it's there.
Simply reducing the size of that dead spot, which should be very possible with a 49-way may have taken care of that.
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Well, using logic to keep the "switch" held down would not be authentic, because all 4-ways have some kind of dead zone. On most microswitch sticks, there is several degrees of travel between one switch clicking off, and the next clicking on.
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Thus my questioning as to whether he found it necessary to go to that extreme for proper functionality.
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Just a heads up, Randy: the happs/midway/atari 49-way grid is a little different spaced than the older williams 49-way. They're pretty close distance-wise, but as Xiaou2 has said, the feel is very different (call it feel-distance, or muscle-distance). Your grids set up for the different modes based on the happs 49-way will probably be fine, but it might not match as well as with the happs 49-way. That's why you're testing, right? ;) I'd like to hear the results.
For anyone who cares, sounds like an alternative way to connect 49-way joysticks is through the wiz's buttons. Why? How about to compare movement (with analog+) 49-way direct input with the GP-Wiz49 analog modes. Or if you're weird (like some of us are ;) ), how about use official mame and ctrlr file your own grid maps for 49->8-way, 49->4way, ect convertions. Note that mame has a limited number of AND's and OR's per game direction, so you probably won't be able to match GP-Wiz49's grids exactly. Again, you have to be a little wacko to do that if you actually have the GP-Wiz49, but it is an option if you have GP-Wiz, or one GP-Wiz49 and two 49-ways (and don't mind only one will be "analog").
My personal view on hardware vs software (vs OS driverware): [shrug] GP-Wiz49 and SJC 49-way to analog interfaces are great. I just have a misgiving about the possibility of stuff being lost in translation (49-way 8 pins -> USB analog ("raw", "Progressive", "linear", "exponential") -> mame internal analog -> gamedriver 49-way 8 pins). Not saying that stuff is anyways lost, just that it can be in these three games in mame. And until a driver is written to do the raw 8 pin to 2 axis analog translations, the hardware interfaces are way more versatile in all other cases.
I'll have to see how the GP-Wiz49 compairs in action. That will have to wait until ... (when is this coming out, Randy?).
Keep the great hardware rolling, Randy!
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Just in case anyone needs replacement spiders for their Sinistar or Arch Rival sticks...http://www.wizzesworkshop.com/cart/product.asp?intProdID=20
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randy...aren't you selling them already? but you'll also be updating them alot within the next couple weeks, right? so you could buy one now, like alot of people are saying they will, but there might be some significant changes in function soon, if ever, right?
i'm just asking for clarity, i'm waiting till all tweaking is complete to get mine. ;D
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Just a heads up, Randy: the happs/midway/atari 49-way grid is a little different spaced than the older williams 49-way. They're pretty close distance-wise, but as Xiaou2 has said, the feel is very different (call it feel-distance, or muscle-distance). Your grids set up for the different modes based on the happs 49-way will probably be fine, but it might not match as well as with the happs 49-way. That's why you're testing, right? ;) I'd like to hear the results.
Thanks for the heads up, but it was unnecessary :). That's the thing I keep trying to get some folks here to understand is that the pretty grid designs don't dictate the "feel" of the stick, but rather the hardware mechanisms themselves. As you expected, this is exactly why I need to test the Williams thoroughly. One of a number of scenarios await me there. It could work just like the Midway version, but "feel" different . It could be just different enough to require special set of definitions just for it (also not a big deal, but time consuming). Or worst case, the electronic restriction might not work well at all based on the characteristics of the hardware. I'll just have to wait until I have one in my hands (any day now) to get a better idea as to where that stands.
For anyone who cares, sounds like an alternative way to connect 49-way joysticks is through the wiz's buttons. Why? How about to compare movement (with analog+) 49-way direct input with the GP-Wiz49 analog modes. Or if you're weird (like some of us are ;) ), how about use official mame and ctrlr file your own grid maps for 49->8-way, 49->4way, ect convertions. Note that mame has a limited number of AND's and OR's per game direction, so you probably won't be able to match GP-Wiz49's grids exactly. Again, you have to be a little wacko to do that if you actually have the GP-Wiz49, but it is an option if you have GP-Wiz, or one GP-Wiz49 and two 49-ways (and don't mind only one will be "analog").
That's a great point.
My personal view on hardware vs software (vs OS driverware): [shrug] GP-Wiz49 and SJC 49-way to analog interfaces are great. I just have a misgiving about the possibility of stuff being lost in translation (49-way 8 pins -> USB analog ("raw", "Progressive", "linear", "exponential") -> mame internal analog -> gamedriver 49-way 8 pins). Not saying that stuff is anyways lost, just that it can be in these three games in mame. And until a driver is written to do the raw 8 pin to 2 axis analog translations, the hardware interfaces are way more versatile in all other cases.
Actually, the hardware removes one level of translation. But I think what you may be questioning is whether the Raw and Progressive output is the "correct" output for the software to translate from. The two 49-way datasets should pretty much cover the future possibilities, but interestingly enough, both of them are seen as three separate levels of force by the software. So Progressive mode really only helps on true analog applications and may also provide some "future-proofing" for revised translations.
I'll have to see how the GP-Wiz49 compairs in action. That will have to wait until ... (when is this coming out, Randy?).
Keep the great hardware rolling, Randy!
Thanks for the support. SirP made me change some stuff (Hehe) so I'm putting the lid on that this evening. As for ETA, it depends on whether the Williams support is needed. If not, the pre-release version will be available starting Thursday. Hopefully I'll have a Williams in my hands for testing over the weekend (thanks again, Kremmit!) and the fully dual-compatible version may be ready as early as Monday or Tuesday of next week.
I also want to take a minute to thank NoOne=NBA=, 1UP, and the others that "get it" and have helped to keep this thread "on-track". This would have been more crazy than it already is without your help.
RandyT
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randy...aren't you selling them already? but you'll also be updating them alot within the next couple weeks, right? so you could buy one now, like alot of people are saying they will, but there might be some significant changes in function soon, if ever, right?
i'm just asking for clarity, i'm waiting till all tweaking is complete to get mine. ;D
See the last post. None of them have shipped yet. If you own a HAPP/MIDWAY/ATARI version, updated code for the Williams won't matter, but as you have the other variety, it's going to be a little bit before it's ready.
RandyT
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The main problem for me is that it's USB only. I realise that USB is the future but I'm not yet ready to commit to a USB only solution because I still occasionally use DOS. It would be nice to have a ps/2 mode like the Ipacs, even if analogue wasn't available in that mode.
This is an analog game device, not a keyboard encoder. Wrong page, wrong book. Unless you are looking for a legacy gameport device.....
Also, what about game consoles? A lot of people want to interface their console to arcade controls but cannot do so because some games require an analogue joystick. This board might provide a solution if it could emulate a playstation gamepad (no need to emulate gamepads for other consoles as converters are available). Ok, I know a 49 way stick isn't true analogue but it might be good enough for many games.
Well, it can't cut curly fries either, but that also wasn't in the in the design scope of the product.
I'd also like to reiterate what others have already said. There needs to be a way of changing the joystick's mode through software as well as by pressing buttons. And programmable customised grids would also be very useful.
I felt this type of extra baggage had the possibility of jeopardizing cross-platform HID compliance. It also de-simplifies the use of the device by requiring software to use it.
In some instances it would be good, but not so good in others.
Here's a little insight into software and encoders: Less than 20% (if even that many) bother using it. The rest happily take the simple route of using defaults.
One final thing. I agree with Paige. It's a bit silly of you to say the 7*7 grids you have used are proprietary and thus secret. It's not us, the ordinary customers, you need to worry about but your competitors. They will reverse engineer your boards whether you like it or not. And somehow I suspect your threat to stop producing any new products if anyone spills the beans will not deter them.
No, but the paperwork I am in the midst of filing probably will. ;)
Hiding legitimate (and easily obtainable) information from potential customers is poor marketing IMHO. It's also poor marketing to ask for 'constructive comments' and then complain when you get them.
Some of the comments made in this thread were less than "constructive", and incidentally, made by some of the "usual suspects". As far as my marketing skills go, when you have a few successful products under your belt, come see me. Otherwise, I'm not sure what qualifies your opinion of them. And unlike some, I don't hang out here just to do "marketing". I've been a contributing member here for a long time and for better or worse, people see the real me. I don't let people twist my lemons just so I can make a sale, and I don't do things I see as inappropriate because of "mob rule".
BTW, when was the last time you called up HP and expected them to tell you the engineering principles behind their new ink cartridges. I'll bet you just bought it and were happy when it worked well, didn't you? How is this so different?
RandyT
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Looks cool, but how do we play rotating games like Ikari Warriors, Time Soldiers and Heavy Barrel with a 49 stick?
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One final thing. I agree with Paige. It's a bit silly of you to say the 7*7 grids you have used are proprietary and thus secret. It's not us, the ordinary customers, you need to worry about but your competitors. They will reverse engineer your boards whether you like it or not. And somehow I suspect your threat to stop producing any new products if anyone spills the beans will not deter them.
No, but the paperwork I am in the midst of filing probably will. ;)
RandyT
If you're thinking in patenting/copyrighting this idea, I should point out that I (and probably others here) thought of it first.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,18826.msg149936.html#msg149936
But don't worry I'm releasing the idea into the public domain, so I won't be charging you royalties. ;D
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I posted the way I would interpret such grids in another thread. I didn't post them here because I didn't want this thread to go off track into an arguement about how to interpret the grids. I am already ashamed that there is arguing going on in this thread. Whenever a vendor releases a new product for us it is a good thing, period. I don't care if it is a doohicky that makes a Namco gun function as a 2 way joystick, it would still be a good thing.
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The main problem for me is that it's USB only. I realise that USB is the future but I'm not yet ready to commit to a USB only solution because I still occasionally use DOS. It would be nice to have a ps/2 mode like the Ipacs, even if analogue wasn't available in that mode.
This is an analog game device, not a keyboard encoder. Wrong page, wrong book. Unless you are looking for a legacy gameport device.....
You couldn't use the raw and progressive modes with a ps/2 interface as they are pseudo analogue. But I don't see why the DRS modes couldn't be converted to simulated keypresses.
Also bear in mind there are ps/2 to console converters available. I used one to interface my Ipac to my Dreamcast.
Just a few 'constructive' thoughts. It's your product after all....
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I posted the way I would interpret such grids in another thread. I didn't post them here because I didn't want this thread to go off track into an arguement about how to interpret the grids. I am already ashamed that there is arguing going on in this thread. Whenever a vendor releases a new product for us it is a good thing, period. I don't care if it is a doohicky that makes a Namco gun function as a 2 way joystick, it would still be a good thing.
I agree, but I think Randy sometimes misinterprets what are nothing more than suggestions for improvements.
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Cool to see you will support any products that come out!
I am selling some conversion kits to make maming true classics better!
MsPacman cocktail -> SF2 kit.
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More products are still good things, granted I don't think there would be much of a market for any of those you described (other than the Ms. Pac-Man cocktail to SF2, judging from newbie posts you could sell those all day long).
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I also want to take a minute to thank NoOne=NBA=, 1UP, and the others that "get it" and have helped to keep this thread "on-track". This would have been more crazy than it already is without your help.
No Problem.
I saw trouble coming from the get-go on this because YOU were the only one who had actually TESTED anything.
Being the only guy with knowledge/experience in an environment like this (where everyone WANTS to know everything, and THINKS they know how things will work in real life) is not a position I envy you.
I've got alot of friends who are bench techs and such, and have run afoul of "engineers" who INSISTED that the circuit they designed would work flawlessly--despite it failing miserably in real-life TESTS, with full documentation to PROVE that it DIDN'T work.
That's pretty much the same situation you're in here.
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I also want to take
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That is exactly what I was saying.
What works on paper is not necessarily what works in real-life applications.
A good case in point for this application is whether the 1st level inputs even need to be used.
How much of a dead zone is created around center by eliminating them from the picture?
How does that compare to a 4-way leaf?
How does it compare to a 4-way micro?
These are things that can't be PROVEN on paper.
They have to be FELT.
With this setup, you can't tweak anything in the field.
Testing it at the source is the only way to tweak anything.
Could Randy have sent it off for Beta testing after HE was satisfied with it?
Yes, but it would have delayed availability of the product.
SHOULD he have?
I don't think so.
He's backing up HIS opinions (subjective as they are) with a money-back guarantee, so I'm guessing he's fairly confident with the results.
Basically the product will soon enter the Beta testing phase.
People will buy it, and post how THEY think it feels.
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That is exactly what I was saying.
What works on paper is not necessarily what works in real-life applications.
A good case in point for this application is whether the 1st level inputs even need to be used.
How much of a dead zone is created around center by eliminating them from the picture?
How does that compare to a 4-way leaf?
How does it compare to a 4-way micro?
These are things that can't be PROVEN on paper.
They have to be FELT.
With this setup, you can't tweak anything in the field.
Testing it at the source is the only way to tweak anything.
Could Randy have sent it off for Beta testing after HE was satisfied with it?
Yes, but it would have delayed availability of the product.
SHOULD he have?
I don't think so.
He's backing up HIS opinions (subjective as they are) with a money-back guarantee, so I'm guessing he's fairly confident with the results.
Basically the product will soon enter the Beta testing phase.
People will buy it, and post how THEY think it feels.
What would have been super nice is if the patterns could be updated in the driver, and if the modes could have been switched in software.
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I totally understand what you are saying. Things may not work out like they do on paper.
However, I wouldn't leave it up to one guy to determine what should feel right to everyone because one person is more likely to NOT think of all possibilities. So we have to challenge RandyT to make sure he is giving us a good product. Example, me coming up with the shift key idea because I can see this as a replacement for the keywiz for some people. RandyT didn't think of that. Which make me tend to think RandyT didn't beta test this with anyone but himself. What he thinks may not be what most of his customers think and you need to cater to the customer, not yourself.
You don't give me enough credit.
I did consider the shifted buttons at the beginning of this, but I didn't know 2 things:
1: Whether such a feature was necessary when there are scads of buttons available, especially in a panel where there are 2 of these boards present (46 extra buttons is a lot for anyone) or 1 GP-Wiz49 + 1 KeyWiz (IPAC, whathaveyou) where the Keyboard encoder already has this feature. And there is also the fact that with applications like MAME, ANY button can be a "shift" button. You just dedicate it as such and it works. So when you brought it up, I looked at in the light of "it was important enough to one person, so there may be others. And if I can add it without detriment to the rest of the product, I will try." I am still not convinced that the testamant of one user deems that feature as a necessity that should hold up it's release, considering the rest of what the product offers.
and
2: Whether there was a way to implement a shifted gamepad button that makes sense and won't screw up cross-platform HID compatibility. I still don't know the answer to this one as I now am battling fussy HID report structures again.
So, it's not that I didn't think of a simple addition of a shift function. There were just a lot more issues at play than you are aware of in its implementation.
And, I will repeat this one more time. "Feel" has nothing to do with this product. You cannot make it feel any different by messing with the definitions. What you can do, however, is screw it up royally so that it doesn't work as it should. The feel of the stick is governed entirely by the mechanical operation and one must correct for what it does by it's inherent nature.
This is one area where Xiaou2 and I see "eye-to-eye", and when I get few free moments, I'll respond to that book he wrote :).
And the product was tested. I mean, I like you guys a lot, but there are other people on the planet. Some of them that will even give you fresh viewpoints not clouded by years of what they are "used to". I even had a chance to watch what happened when they used it. We are talking people who don't play video games for a living, but average Joes, who when asked "how does the control feel? Did it ever seem to make you go someplace you didn't intend to go?" replied in every case, paraphrased, "No. It worked really well and I felt like I was always in control."
And you know the funny thing? They never asked what the grids looked like....not even once.
RandyT
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You don't give me enough credit.
2: Whether there was a way to implement a shifted gamepad button that makes sense and won't screw up cross-platform HID compatibility.
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What would have been super nice is if the patterns could be updated in the driver, and if the modes could have been switched in software.
If this is of interest to you, take urebelscum's advice and use the software approach to develop your own solutions. This product was not designed for you, rather the person that just wants things to work without fiddling with stuff that might confuse the hooey out of them. :)
RandyT
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What would have been super nice is if the patterns could be updated in the driver, and if the modes could have been switched in software.
If this is of interest to you, take urebelscum's advice and use the software approach to develop your own solutions.
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How is the shift different than the keywiz? The keywiz is usb, is it not? It should be HID then.
The KeyWiz is not USB. And even if it was, HID reports for Keyboards and Gamepads are very different birds.
RandyT
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How is the shift different than the keywiz?
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Out of curiosity, how would I have this output digital up/down/left/right for those PC games that don't use an analog joystick.
I know in mame you can do this. But there may be PC games that are only expecting the digital input. Or does the analog input send the digital direction too in the windows HUD?
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"Feel" has nothing to do with this product. You cannot make it feel any different by messing with the definitions.
"Feel", in the context used, is not the MECHANICAL feel of the stick, but rather the OPERATIONAL feel of the stick.
(i.e. does it have dead spots like a software restricted 8-way)
A software restricted 8-way will stop sending data when a diagonal is hit, until you get it back to a cardinal direction--and that FEELS bad while you are playing a game.
If you made the stick ONLY respond to the 2nd level of the cardinal directions, I'm betting the people who tested it would tell you that it FELT like they weren't in control.
Actually, they would probably throw in some choice cuss words, so that you'd know how they REALLY felt about it, but....
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Exactly, you have to think in terms of a gamer playing a game than a hardware guy making hardware.
When a gamer says the controls don't "feel" right it's because the resopnse the controls have and the feedback from the game are not in sync with how the gamer thinks they should work.
By changing the definitions, even one grid point like changing a diagonal bias on a 4way restriciton, will feel different to a gamer.
Actually, it could mean the physical feel is not right either, like there's too much tension in the joystick spring, etc... but depending on how the gamer describes the "feeling" you will know if he is talking about how the hardware is phyically versus how the software is interpetting the hardware. They will usually say something specificly related to the hardware, like my wrist is getting strained or the joystick feels loose (weak spring).
But the feel most of us are talking about here is the interaction between the 49way and ultimately the game.
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I'd also like to reiterate what others have already said. There needs to be a way of changing the joystick's mode through software as well as by pressing buttons. And programmable customised grids would also be very useful.
I felt this type of extra baggage had the possibility of jeopardizing cross-platform HID compliance. It also de-simplifies the use of the device by requiring software to use it.
In some instances it would be good, but not so good in others.
Thanks for providing an answer to my question. Personally, though, I feel that putting that control over the device's behavior on the PC side (where it belongs) is very important, as I want to build my cabinet without assuming the people playing it will know things like the button layouts for a game, the type of joystick it uses, etc. beforehand. Where possible the 8-way/4-way/2-way/49-way selection should be taken care of for them. (I say "where possible" because I don't have a way to do that with T-Stick+'s because I have no way to control the mechanical slider with software - but as this is a problem of controlling software behavior it seems very possible)
If you decide you would like to add that kind of support without complicating the encoder firmware, one way to approach it would be to make it easier for an outside circuit to set the encoder's mode. That way the mode switch could be done with parallel port interfacing, or with something like a general-purpose I/O board connected to USB. That's possible already, of course, except that operation of the game buttons can interfere with that unless there's some kind of external cut-off inserted. (It'd cost an extra three I/O lines from the microcontroller to provide this kind of control without using the button lines...)
Anyway, it's just a thought. For now I'll just assume that you're right about the complications involved in controlling this feature through USB HID, which would otherwise seem the most straightforward way of controlling the feature through software.
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I'd also like to reiterate what others have already said. There needs to be a way of changing the joystick's mode through software as well as by pressing buttons. And programmable customised grids would also be very useful.
I felt this type of extra baggage had the possibility of jeopardizing cross-platform HID compliance.
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Exactly, you have to think in terms of a gamer playing a game than a hardware guy making hardware.
But the feel most of us are talking about here is the interaction between the 49way and ultimately the game.
I know this is hard for you guys to believe, but I know these things already. I'm not just "some hardware guy". I lived in the arcades in my youth, and converted a real arcade cabinet for use with computers and consoles before some of the crowd here were even born. I am a pioneer in this hobby, not a "johnny come lately" (self proclaimed, of course :D )
But the hardware guy in me says this:
The only other "feel" you can achieve is the "feel" that it sucks.
There isn't the wiggle room with this as some of you folks think. It really goes: "Works well" to "What a stupid idea" with little if anything inbetween. These sticks just do not have the resolution to have the flexibility you are thinking they possess.
And I would need my head examined if I left non-strategic dead spots in the definitions. :D
RandyT
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I'm with you on this one. There would have to be some sort of flash memeory on the encoder that can be programmed via PC software the how the ipac is programmed. Then the software in the wiz49's IC would have to read from that flash memory the config for handling the 49way's pins to analog value.
This should be doable would definately take time and programming.
The hard part would be coming up with software that is cross platform, not the hardware. Right now, I program my ipac via the windows utility (is there alinux) then put the ipac on the linux arcade. There's nothing that says that can't be done here unless HID is disallowing a way to program the hardware.
Edit: I just realized you were talking about changing modes. simular thing applies however the software to program the hardware or change the mode would have to have an API (be it commandline or whatever) that a FE can use. It wouldj be the FE's responsibility to change the mode.
And then it would cost $50 because of all the extra hardware and software development, hardware, custom boards, etc.. and I would burn through half of my market because the device suddenly looks too complicated to the people that just want a simple solution, and too expensive for anyone to consider.
Right at this moment, we have people that think it's the greatest thing in the world to be able to blindly lift and twist on the stick to go from 4 to 8 ways, but somehow pressing a couple of buttons is suddenly "too inconvenient".
You should spend a day in my shoes.
BTW, hows that controls.dat project coming that you guys started years ago? See? It's easy for someone on the outside to decide what should and shouldn't be possible. In my mind, you guys should have had not only the data collection side ready, but a full blown 3D interface with all the trimmings by now. But I'm not close enough to the project to understand your thought process or what is ultimately impeding your progress, nor will I tell anyone that I am.
And just so there's no confusion, the above is not a "dig", just an example SirP might be able to relate to. I personally could care less what the status of that project is (although I do believe it to be a worthy cause.) :)
RandyT
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I would think that a command line switch would be great, like /49A or /49B, etc etc.
I'll shut up now
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There isn't the wiggle room with this as some of you folks think.
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I would think that a command line switch would be great, like /49A or /49B, etc etc.
RandyT will have to look into it to see if it is possible.
Well, I am a believer that anything is possible.
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What would have been super nice is if the patterns could be updated in the driver, and if the modes could have been switched in software.
If this is of interest to you, take urebelscum's advice and use the software approach to develop your own solutions. This product was not designed for you, rather the person that just wants things to work without fiddling with stuff that might confuse the hooey out of them. :)
RandyT
A controller for a 49 way joystick with the ability to emulate other joysticks is a great idea. I just know none of the people who play on my cabinets want to have to think oh gee, pac-man used a 4 way, let's see I have to hold down the purple button while hitting the red button. Then they switch to something like stargate they aren't going to know to hold down the purple button while pressing the green button. Having to push the buttons is hookey as ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---. A way to set the hardware in software would be a thousand times better. I understand you most likely can't do this with out a driver for the device and you want to stick to a HID device that requires no driver, but why? Macs make less than 5% of the market place and less than that of the emulation market place, and surely nobody is going to want to hook this up to their xbox/dreamcast/ipaq so why stick with HID. I guess there is a small linux market, but release the specs and someone will write a driver for that. A windows utility that let people swap layouts would be something anyone could understand, and a command line program or api would then let frontends change the sticks on the fly where the end user wouldn't have to do anything at all.
While it sounds like a neat idea to me, I most likely won't purchase it, cause I don't want my wife calling me at work complaining that pacman won't let her go left and right cause I was playing stargate last night and forgot to reset it.
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BTW, hows that controls.dat project coming that you guys started years ago?
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While it sounds like a neat idea to me, I most likely won't purchase it, cause I don't want my wife calling me at work complaining that pacman won't let her go left and right cause I was playing stargate last night and forgot to reset it.
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as for all this software switching mumbo jumbo...
i'm going to make a book of all the unique games that my cabinet can play.
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The difficulty in writing drivers for Windows/Linux/MSDOS/Mac etc is another reason why I think a ps/2 mode would be useful.
The Ipac has drivers for all of the above operating systems (plus an interactive mode that will work with any OS) and I suspect this might be because it is easier to write drivers for devices connected to the ps/2 port than USB drivers.
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I understand you most likely can't do this with out a driver for the device and you want to stick to a HID device that requires no driver, but why?
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Anyway,
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Thanks for providing an answer to my question. Personally, though, I feel that putting that control over the device's behavior on the PC side (where it belongs) is very important, as I want to build my cabinet without assuming the people playing it will know things like the button layouts for a game, the type of joystick it uses, etc. beforehand. Where possible the 8-way/4-way/2-way/49-way selection should be taken care of for them. (I say "where possible" because I don't have a way to do that with T-Stick+'s because I have no way to control the mechanical slider with software - but as this is a problem of controlling software behavior it seems very possible)
The hard part would be coming up with software that is cross platform, not the hardware.
Edit: I just realized you were talking about changing modes. simular thing applies however the software to program the hardware or change the mode would have to have an API (be it commandline or whatever) that a FE can use.
That's true, about the cross-platform software. Being on Linux, it's not an issue I could necessarily ignore if someone rolled out a device with Windows drivers. There doesn't seem to be a good cross-platform way of interfacing directly with HID devices. If the relevant information were available for a given device I don't think it'd be too hard to do it on Linux. Just a matter of sending the right report to the right device. But for the feature to be generally useful the driver to do that would have to be supplied on Windows at the very least.
This is why I think interfacing the encoder to another circuit could be a good middle-ground solution for people who want this control but aren't up to the technical challenges of doing the software (or hardware) to do it over USB. It's something that could be done with the encoder as it is, and then the "API" would consist of sending bytes to a serial port or toggling lines on a parallel port.
Randy: The above isn't a proposal for a product change or a new product. I'm not a business guy and I have no great ambition to become one. More a suggestion for people who, like myself, want the ability to control this behavior through software with the existing hardware.
And believe me, I know the T-Stick+ and similar joysticks are a compromise - if I could control the toggle with software I would. The reason I can't is a practical one: controlling the mechanical parts with software requires an actuator that can do the job, and I don't know where to get such a thing or whether it would fit in my CP. The best I can manage is to use switches to monitor which state the joystick is in, and feed that info to the front-end so it can block people from running games that need 8-way when the stick is in 4-way mode.
The limitation with the '49 is more artificial. There's no practical limitation keeping that feature from being software-controlled. And from a UI standpoint the situation is bad: the front-end or the CP need to tell people how to set the mode, and there's no provision for letting people know what mode is active. In a more perfect world I'd prefer the encoder to have software control already - but in practical terms, the encoder provides enough button inputs that the ones that control mode could be dedicated to that purpose, and I could add that feature externally without worrying about what buttons are being pressed on the CP. I guess that'll have to do. When I build such a thing I'll be sure to share the design.
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I know when I get one of these I might have encapsulate my mame exe in a bat file and make a program that will control the modes and possibly LED indicators around the joy indicating which directions are enabled.
Now I really want those glow ball tops, translucent buttons, glow tball, now just need a glow spinner.... Mmmmmm, lights...
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I understand you most likely can't do this with out a driver for the device and you want to stick to a HID device that requires no driver, but why?
You know how nice it is to just plug something in and it works? I do that with my zip drive. No drivers needed. It just works. Same with mouse and whatever.
The biggest reason is someone would have to write the driver. If RandyT doesn't have this knowledge he has to outsource it. Like oyu said though, he could give the specs to someone and have them make the driver for him. I'm sure if he looks around someone will volunteer their time and effort.
Yes, plugging something in and needing no drivers is nice, but this isn't a jump drive, you will take from machine to machine, this is a controller you are going to put in an arcade cabinet once and leave there, loading a driver once is trivial.
I think it's possible to have HID devices that also have drivers where you get some function with no driver and added features if the correct driver is load. More advanced mice do this all the time, with no driver the buttons work, with correct drivers, all buttons and force feed back/etc work. It mostly seems that not having a 2 way interface available on this thing where you could send it a 0-7 to set it to a certain state was/is a big oversite.
I have 3 cabinets all with mini-pacs in them, if I could just replace one of the joysticks and add this, I'd at least try it on one of my cabinets. But as it stands, I'd have to replace the joystick, and rewire at least player 1 buttons so I could set modes, and reprogram my minipac's shifted keys to other buttons where I could still get to coins/volume/etc. A lot more work than it should be.
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I think it's possible to have HID devices that also have drivers where you get some function with no driver and added features if the correct driver is load.
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RandyT, try to implement the Software change modes solution.
That would be the best option for most of us, or in alternative, only one button to change modes.
Thanks!
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sorry, i've got to say this...
not to poopoo on anyone, but randy is providing us with this product.
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Yes, plugging something in and needing no drivers is nice, but this isn't a jump drive, you will take from machine to machine, this is a controller you are going to put in an arcade cabinet once and leave there, loading a driver once is trivial.
This is exactly the opposite from the sentiments I have been hearing. One of the major concerns people have had is whether they can take a control panel they build based around one of these interfaces to a friends house and plug it in and play without a lot of hassle. i.e. Thumbdrive like transportability.
And speaking of which, a client brought a thumbdrive into our offices a short time ago that worked great on his laptop and said it was supposed to be "plug and go". We spent half the day trying it on a half dozen systems, and couldn't get it to work.
Saying something and making it so are two different things and with USB, it's just not as simple as it sounds because of the number of variables involved. The examples you give on the behaviour of other devices fail to take into consideration the 12 people that worked for 3 months straight developing firmware and supporting software, or the potential market of millions for the device to pay for it.
So yes, lots of things would be nice. How many are willing to fund the development of them? Far less than wish to have a say in the products design, I'm sure.
RandyT
BTW, Thank you Flinkly for the words of support. I'm sure there are a lot of folks like you out there that feel the same way, but don't want to get involved in the "trial by fire" that all new developments go through on the board. I've been through a few of them and now that the scar tissue is starting to build up I can't feel it much any more :)
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Randy, I'm with Flinkly. I'm just happy you're offering a product like this. I'm not knowledgable in these sorts of things, nor am I that adept in cabinet building, so this is a great benefit to me. For a guy who was going to go with an 8 way and a 4 way and hope for the best, I'm just thrilled to hear that this great alternative is available. The other stuff people want would just be a bonus, and there is a lot of time in the future for people to build upon this and make it happen. Until that time, just know that I (and others like me) are very excited about the product and I'll be buying two of them.
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This is exactly the opposite from the sentiments I have been hearing.
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For everyone asking to have this redesigned to have software mode switching--sounds like a good BYO project to me. Surely one of you can write this into an FE, and rig up a simple parallel port interface that would consist of a few resistors and transistors. The FE sends a commandline to the parallel port when a certain game is run, the board makes the connection to send a button press to Randy's encoder, and you're done.
BTW, it would be great if Randy could make something like this, but I think it should be an addon rather than standard. I'm sure lots of people would rather keep it cheap and push the buttons themselves. If you look at all the complicated routes people will go to avoid spending $30-$40 for a good spinner, you'll see what I mean.
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Thanks for the heads up, but it was unnecessary :).
Didn't think it was, but just in case. :)
I just have a misgiving about the possibility of stuff being lost in translation:
1) 49-way 8 pins -> USB analog ("raw", "Progressive", "linear", "exponential")
2) -> mame internal analog
3) -> gamedriver 49-way 8 pins.
editted: layout and numbering
Actually, the hardware removes one level of translation.
??? Which one? I don't see how that could be possible. If anything, I've left out translation steps ('cause usually those steps aren't used or are skipped).
Compare with the straight path the original controllers followed: 8 output pins on joystick -> 8 on the PCB. Zero translations, and processing was done by game's ROM.
Of course, normal analog joystick games don't do the processing in their ROMs; that's what your wiz49 does, so the stick can work on those games (& official mame). (Translation 1)
Now it's in "analog stick" format. Mame reads it and translates it to it's internal format. (Actually, mame reads, saves in directInput format in OS specific part, passes info to core applying mame's analog acceleration, and saves in core's different format.) (Translation 2)
For 49-way games, then the driver gets the mame core formated data, and translates it back to 8 bits that match the 8 pins on the joystick. IOW, it's translated to back to the original format, so the ROM can do the processing. (Translation 3)
I'm skipping some stuff like device driver acceleration, deadzone and other "cpoint (http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/directx9_c/directx/input/using/devicedata/usingcpoints.asp)" translations, and combining mame's acceleration into the second step when it could be seperate, all which would effect the final play. I know steps 2 & 3 (above) are mame's "fault", but they will effect how much I like your product. (You've tested this and probably adjusted for them, so probably okay, but...)
But I think what you may be questioning is whether the Raw and Progressive output is the "correct" output for the software to translate from. The two 49-way datasets should pretty much cover the future possibilities, but interestingly enough, both of them are seen as three separate levels of force by the software. So Progressive mode really only helps on true analog applications and may also provide some "future-proofing" for revised translations.
That's exactly what I'm wondering. Heck, it's because of normal analog controllers and normal analog games I'm wondering. Some joystick/gamepad drivers let the user adjust the analog curves, dead zone, ect, and almost always I don't like the defaults. Some drives let the user set different settings per game, and I have needed to do that. Other controllers I've tossed in the closet because I don't like the movement-to-output ratios and can't change them. At least you'll have two and a half ("raw", progressive, and 8-way) I can try.
I'm wondering how your "grid'ing" and "value'ing" feel to me. [shrug] I'm not singling your product out; it's basically the same question as all input products I buy.
Actually, I have to look at the analog+ source or ask urebel on what he is doing with the 49way data. Is he converting the data to an analog signal and letting the driver convert it back or sending it directly to the driver.
If sending directly to the driver you couldn't do something like the Wiz49 two 49way modes.
For the three games, analog+ sends the 8 pins pretty straight to the game. (They might be bitwise NOT'ed, depending on the game & happs vs williams controller.)
Other than the three games, analog+ has no extra support for 49-way joysticks that official mame doesn't have. (IOW, none except by remapping)
<off=chest>
Oh BTW, and just my opinion (you can ignore if you want, Randy ;) ), I don't like the term "raw" used as the name for one of the modes. "Raw" 49-way to me means 8 bits, one bit per output pin on the controller, matching exactly what the respective pin is outputing, four 4 bits per axis. Wiz49's "raw" mode sounds like SJC's "linear" mode, which is very different than the raw output of the 49-way stick (IOW it is processed data). And to me, that's not raw anymore. [shrug] Not that it really matters at all, and "What's in a name, a rose [blah][blah][blah]..", but everytime I see "raw" I think "data as if direct from stick" and then need to readjust to Randy's mode naming. Sorry, please ignore this paragraph, not important.
</off=chest feel=better>
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BTW, it would be great if Randy could make something like this, but I think it should be an addon rather than standard. I'm sure lots of people would rather keep it cheap and push the buttons themselves. If you look at all the complicated routes people will go to avoid spending $30-$40 for a good spinner, you'll see what I mean.
Maybe it would be better to design it as an addon. I mentioned that it could be a keywiz replacement in a cabinet just because it has 23 extra inputs. That's more than enough to have a 49way and any extra buttons one would need.
But if it is aimed to be an add on all that isn;t used and maybe the resources could be used to implement a new feature?
Randy, it's not that we don;t like the product. I for one think it's one of the best things to come by. I don't think anyone is getting that point. Many of us are just wondering why you didn't go that extra step that could possibly be feasible. It's how products improve when customers ask about it. It's like when the keywiz came out all of us that wondered why there isn't keyboard led support...
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Yes, plugging something in and needing no drivers is nice, but this isn't a jump drive, you will take from machine to machine, this is a controller you are going to put in an arcade cabinet once and leave there, loading a driver once is trivial.
This is exactly the opposite from the sentiments I have been hearing. One of the major concerns people have had is whether they can take a control panel they build based around one of these interfaces to a friends house and plug it in and play without a lot of hassle. i.e. Thumbdrive like transportability.
And speaking of which, a client brought a thumbdrive into our offices a short time ago that worked great on his laptop and said it was supposed to be "plug and go". We spent half the day trying it on a half dozen systems, and couldn't get it to work.
Saying something and making it so are two different things and with USB, it's just not as simple as it sounds because of the number of variables involved. The examples you give on the behaviour of other devices fail to take into consideration the 12 people that worked for 3 months straight developing firmware and supporting software, or the potential market of millions for the device to pay for it.
So yes, lots of things would be nice. How many are willing to fund the development of them? Far less than wish to have a say in the products design, I'm sure.
RandyT
BTW, Thank you Flinkly for the words of support. I'm sure there are a lot of folks like you out there that feel the same way, but don't want to get involved in the "trial by fire" that all new developments go through on the board. I've been through a few of them and now that the scar tissue is starting to build up I can't feel it much any more :)
Ok, Randy, I'll believe you, I bet as many people want to take their arcade cabinet control panel out, lug it across town and plug it into their friends cabinet and play sinistar, ranks right up there with the number of guys who carry a round a toilet seat cover in their billfold, or women that carry around P-Mate in their pruses so they can piss in a urinal if all the stalls are full, but it's your product.
http://www.p-mate.com/eng/intro.html
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Whatever dude. There are lots of examples of people building hot-rod style control panels... rather than full-fledged arcade cabs. Those CPs ARE portable, and I can see the value that this product could hold for them. It's not unheard of for someone to take a CP to somene elses house...
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Whatever dude. There are lots of examples of people building hot-rod style control panels... rather than full-fledged arcade cabs. Those CPs ARE portable, and I can see the value that this product could hold for them. It's not unheard of for someone to take a CP to somene elses house...
Yeah, I'm sure a few do, and a few guys wear their little brothers panties.
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::)
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Whatever dude. There are lots of examples of people building hot-rod style control panels... rather than full-fledged arcade cabs. Those CPs ARE portable, and I can see the value that this product could hold for them. It's not unheard of for someone to take a CP to somene elses house...
Yeah, I'm sure a few do, and a few guys wear their little brothers panties.
Yeah, but we won't hold that against you ;)
RandyT
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I just have a misgiving about the possibility of stuff being lost in translation:
1) 49-way 8 pins -> USB analog ("raw", "Progressive", "linear", "exponential")
2) -> mame internal analog
3) -> gamedriver 49-way 8 pins.
editted: layout and numbering
Actually, the hardware removes one level of translation.
??? Which one? I don't see how that could be possible. If anything, I've left out translation steps ('cause usually those steps aren't used or are skipped).
In the sense of what the computer has to deal with. The first level translation is no longer necessary.
For 49-way games, then the driver gets the mame core formated data, and translates it back to 8 bits that match the 8 pins on the joystick. IOW, it's translated to back to the original format, so the ROM can do the processing. (Translation 3)
This is the part that is most important. It also seems to be the part that is the most forgiving. All that needs to happen here is that the game sees 3 distinct levels of force in each of the primary directions. Anything beyond that is governed 100% by the joystick mechanics.
The analog operation is a nice bonus, and it can make some games playable that never had a chance on an 8-way. But it will never be ideal with something that has only 1/29th the resolution (typically).
<off=chest>
Oh BTW, and just my opinion (you can ignore if you want, Randy ;) ), I don't like the term "raw" used as the name for one of the modes. "Raw" 49-way to me means 8 bits, one bit per output pin on the controller, matching exactly what the respective pin is outputing, four 4 bits per axis. Wiz49's "raw" mode sounds like SJC's "linear" mode, which is very different than the raw output of the 49-way stick (IOW it is processed data). And to me, that's not raw anymore. [shrug] Not that it really matters at all, and "What's in a name, a rose [blah][blah][blah]..", but everytime I see "raw" I think "data as if direct from stick" and then need to readjust to Randy's mode naming. Sorry, please ignore this paragraph, not important.
</off=chest feel=better>
Yeah, but you brought it up, so now we have to talk about it :)
By your definition, the "raw" outrput from a 49-way is binary data. Things are either on or they are off in combinations that mean something to the application looking at them. These combinations essentially form this "grid" that everyone likes drawing on. The grid itself is actually the raw output of the stick. Now, each one of these blocks can be assigned a number, or you can look at the grid and assign a range in each of the 2-axes and divide it into pieces.
The computer has no way to think about the binary data as it has no native 49-way interface, but it can assign a range to each axis or set of opposing primary directions. Just as the circuit generates binary data based on the linear spacing of the optical sensors, it's "raw" progression, so too are the values selected along the range the computer understands.
The digital form of output on the 49-way is mostly irrelevant when connecting it to the PC. It's the "raw" spacing of the sensors that is important because this must always be translated into a usable form for the PC. And if you don't perform the translation based on the spacing of the sensors, it is no longer "raw"
Raw49 = Unmodified 49 way operation. It is only "linear" by the coincidence that the sensors are spaced as such.
RandyT
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Hi Randy
Thanks for coming up with such an awesome product. I have a few questions which I don't think have been answered yet.
What is your impression of using a 49-way plus your device in place of an analog stick? Good enough to ditch analog completely?
Have you tried 720 degrees with the 49-way?
Thanks!
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Just have to de-lurk at this point..
I think we need to remember that it is conventional wisdom that the definition of an 8-way and 4-way stick is mechanical not electronic. The feel of the stick, ie not allowing the corners and being able to slide over the restrictor plate is why the sticks are different and why the T-Stick and even GGGs own 4-8 stick exist. So logically locking the diagonals does not gain much over what MAME already does.
I suspect that in this case the switching is necessary not to add any "feel" but because the 49-way stick is emulating the regular stick through an analog interface. So it's an extra hassle which does not result in an overall gain.
I suspect that if this was simply aimed at being a 49-way stick interface for anyone who wants such a stick, for games that use one, then it would have been accepted here with less of the "trial by fire". It's a great product for this basic purpose.
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Just have to de-lurk at this point..
I think we need to remember that it is conventional wisdom that the definition of an 8-way and 4-way stick is mechanical not electronic. The feel of the stick, ie not allowing the corners and being able to slide over the restrictor plate is why the sticks are different and why the T-Stick and even GGGs own 4-8 stick exist. So logically locking the diagonals does not gain much over what MAME already does.
Andy, is that you? :D
I suspect that in this case the switching is necessary not to add any "feel" but because the 49-way stick is emulating the regular stick through an analog interface. So it's an extra hassle which does not result in an overall gain.
Wrong as wrong gets. The 49-way, is a very cool piece of equipment, but it has a unique mechanical dynamic. The GP-Wiz49 compensates for that dynamic in a special way for each of the modes presented. Gaming software will offer only a very generic translation of the analog grid and it does not suit these sticks well at all.
For example, there is a very marked difference in the way the 49-way plays in Raw49 mode and 4-way DRS mode.
I suspect that if this was simply aimed at being a 49-way stick interface for anyone who wants such a stick, for games that use one, then it would have been accepted here with less of the "trial by fire". It's a great product for this basic purpose.
And to present it as such may have caused less of a "stir" from those like yourself who don't understand the concept, but it would have failed miserably at giving the product the credit it deserves.
RandyT
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Perhaps you should dedicate some space on the product page to explaining what the '49 does, and exactly why the GP-Wiz49's approach works? I think for some people (like myself) it was something of an educational issue. Not suggesting going into a lot of technical detail but answering in broad detail some of the questions that have come up several times (and been answered) in the thread:
- Why is it better than typical host-side A-D conversion? (Better-fit solution, less setup work)
- Why is it better than playing 4-way and 2-way games on an 8-way? (Smaller dead zones, better responsiveness)
- What are the limitations relative to true 4-way/2-way/diagonal sticks, and how important are they? (No restrictor plate, basically...)
and so on...
I don't think using a 49-way as an all-purpose joystick is a perfect solution (there is no "perfect", everything is a compromise when trying to make something all-purpose) but it sounds like it may be a very good one. I think if you can help people to understand the product better that will help you to sell it.
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What is your impression of using a 49-way plus your device in place of an analog stick? Good enough to ditch analog completely?
Thanks!
As I wrote earlier, the 49-way may get you by on some of the analog games, but it can never be a perfect replacement for a true analog stick.
The 49-way has only...well, 49 possible locations that it can distinguish. An analog stick can theoretically distinguish an infinite number of locations, but to be managable they usually resolve to 65536, or 256 x 256.
So, as you can see, in a game that expects true analog controls to work properly, the 49-way will only get you part of the way there. Whether it's enough will depend on the game (and you), but it will certainly be better than an 8-way possibly could.
RandyT
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My head is starting to hurt from trying to follow all of the "deep thinking" in this thread. Frankly, I think I spent a lot less time buying my last car than many here are spending on ruminations for a $35 device.
For all those that think this is bunk or a burning mystery, why not buy one and test it yourself or wait for someone else to post their results. Personally, I'm going to buy two just to support the effort. I hope Randy and others continue to develop and take chances on this stuff.
He has A LOT more patience than I do...
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Have you tried 720 degrees with the 49-way?
That could be interesting. I know they put code in mame to convert analog stick to spinner. Someone will have to try.
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I have a few questions about setting things up...
You mention that there are 23 additional inputs available on the device. Does this mean that there is the possibility of connecting up to 23 buttons once the 49 way joystick is hooked up? It looks like the Happs 49 way has a bunch of pins jutting from its board. How is that connected to the encoder? I'm guessing that daisy chaining buttons that would be repeated on a rotating control panel wouldn't be a problem?
And finally, how would I go about hooking a trackball and spinner up using a mini-pac? I wasn't sure if the two encoders were able to be linked so a single signal was sent to the PC from the players, or if I had to run them to the PC separately through the USB cable. If separately how does MAME read the two USB cables correctly so that the trackball and spinner can work along with the KeyWiz 49. Because if I need to use the trackball or spinner at the same time as the KeyWiz buttons, won't there be a conflict? If I hooked the trackball/mouse and spinner buttons all to the mini-pac, while leaving the KeyWiz plugged in on another panel, wouldn't that create conflicts with the PC? I'm just not sure how I'd integrate the spinner/trackball with the KeyWiz49.
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And finally, how would I go about hooking a trackball and spinner up using a mini-pac? I wasn't sure if the two encoders were able to be linked so a single signal was sent to the PC from the players, or if I had to run them to the PC separately through the USB cable. If separately how does MAME read the two USB cables correctly so that the trackball and spinner can work along with the KeyWiz 49. Because if I need to use the trackball or spinner
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I just have a misgiving about the possibility of stuff being lost in translation:
1) 49-way 8 pins -> USB analog ("raw", "Progressive", "linear", "exponential")
2) -> mame internal analog
3) -> gamedriver 49-way 8 pins.
Actually, the hardware removes one level of translation.
??? Which one? I don't see how that could be possible.
In the sense of what the computer has to deal with. The first level translation is no longer necessary.
So the translation still happens. It's the translation I'm worried about, not who does it.
And since the computer has never done this step (not in official mame nor in mameAnalog+), your product is not removing it. You even say below the computer can't understand this raw, err, original unmodified data. Heck, the whole reason for your product is to do this step (unless in a different mode of course).
For 49-way games, then the driver gets the mame core formated data, and translates it back to 8 bits that match the 8 pins on the joystick. IOW, it's translated to back to the original format, so the ROM can do the processing. (Translation 3)
This is the part that is most important. It also seems to be the part that is the most forgiving. All that needs to happen here is that the game sees 3 distinct levels of force in each of the primary directions. Anything beyond that is governed 100% by the joystick mechanics.
Well, the way the mame drivers for those three games are set up is pretty dumb. The levels have to be far enough apart so the division won't hide the difference, but not too far so the division will skip one of the levels. And this is after mame applies it's OSD to core translation + acceleration. Which are after the first step. So not any three levels, but three levels that pass the above criteria.
Forgiving, yes; any, no.
The analog operation is a nice bonus, and it can make some games playable that never had a chance on an 8-way. But it will never be ideal with something that has only 1/29th the resolution (typically).
Definately, never said differently.
<off=chest>
Oh BTW, and just my opinion (you can ignore if you want, Randy ;) ), I don't like the term "raw" used as the name for one of the modes. "Raw" 49-way to me means 8 bits, one bit per output pin on the controller, matching exactly what the respective pin is outputing, four 4 bits per axis. Wiz49's "raw" mode sounds like SJC's "linear" mode, which is very different than the raw output of the 49-way stick (IOW it is processed data). And to me, that's not raw anymore. [shrug] Not that it really matters at all, and "What's in a name, a rose [blah][blah][blah]..", but everytime I see "raw" I think "data as if direct from stick" and then need to readjust to Randy's mode naming. Sorry, please ignore this paragraph, not important.
</off=chest feel=better>
Yeah, but you brought it up, so now we have to talk about it :)
By your definition, the "raw" output from a 49-way is binary data. Things are either on or they are off in combinations a) that mean something to the application looking at them. These combinations essentially form this "grid" that everyone likes drawing on. b) The grid itself is actually the raw output of the stick. c) Now, each one of these blocks can be assigned a number, or you can look at the grid and assign a range in each of the 2-axes and divide it into pieces. edit: added strike through and italic lettering
The lines I struck through are your assumptions, not mine. The grid is not the raw data, the raw data is the 8 bits, period. I gave each sentence a letter and are addressed below.
a) The raw data doesn't always mean something to the app looking at it; I can't read polish and need it translated for it to mean something to me, possibly losing something in the translation. The translated polish is not raw data anymore.
b) The gird is not the raw data, it's an abstract vision of what the raw data represents.
c) I guess you can do whatever you want with the grid, but the only way to make it close to raw is to put the raw data (8 bits, in binary, hex, or other number) in the square that combination represents. Anything else is a translation or abstraction, aka not raw.
The computer has no way to think about the binary data as it has no native 49-way interface,
Yup, that's one of the main reasons I call this "raw", and your "raw49" not raw. Sort of like people shouldn't eat raw meat, the computer can't understand the raw 49-way info. You have to cook it to a different form so the computer understands it.
... but it can assign a range to each axis or set of opposing primary directions. Just as the circuit generates binary data based on the linear spacing of the optical sensors, it's "raw" progression, so too are the values selected along the range the computer understands.
In my books, that's called "cooking", aka "changing from original format", aka "not raw".
And the binary data from the controlller is not "based on the ... spacing", and almost not "generated": 6 pins come straight from the six sensors (3 per axis) and represent if that sensor is blocked or not, the other two (one per axis) are generated from the corresponding 3 to store which side of center the stick is (note that center is considered on one of those sides since it's only one bit per axis).
The digital form of output on the 49-way is mostly irrelevant when connecting it to the PC. It's the "raw" spacing of the sensors that is important because this must always be translated into a usable form for the PC. And if you don't perform the translation based on the spacing of the sensors, it is no longer "raw"
Cooked is cooked to me, whether breaded and deep fried (your "progressive49") or plain steamed (your "raw49").
Raw49 = Unmodified 49 way operation. It is only "linear" by the coincidence that the sensors are spaced as such. italics by urebel
RandyT
That's your definition. My def of raw is "unaltered data", since your product is about sending data.
Like I said, it's just semantics, but I'm afraid you'll get into the same problems that happen with disscussing mice if you use "Raw" (with more people than just me ;) ). "Mouse" means "physical device moved on pad" and/or "any physical device that sends like data" and/or "the cursor on the screen" and/or "object/instance that applications get the mouse data from. It's those dang "and/or" that causes problems in some discussions as one person may be talking about parts 1-3, another is talking about part 4, and the rest think all things mentioned apply to all parts 1-4. Confusion, misunderstanding, and false data come out of the different meanings with the same word.
Just out of curiousity, what do you call the raw, err, data direct from the joystick, before it goes through your controller? Maybe I could just use that and forget this whole raw/not raw part. :)
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I think we are arguing the symantics of vocabulary now.
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I think we are arguing the symantics of vocabulary now.
Actually, they are DEBATING the symantics of vocabulary, not ARGUING them. :)
And including yourself in the statement "we" above is a little presumptuous, in that YOU haven't actually contributed to the current debate regarding symantics.
You have COMMENTED on the fact that it is occurring. ;)
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more symantics ::)
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more symantics ::)
Yes.
But MINE are more entertaining.
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semantics :police: ;D
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Yeah, I knew something didn't look right. Monkey see- monkey do.
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So the translation still happens. It's the translation I'm worried about, not who does it.
There's really nothing much to worry about. Either it works, or it doesn't. In this case it does.
And since the computer has never done this step (not in official mame nor in mameAnalog+), your product is not removing it. You even say below the computer can't understand this raw, err, original unmodified data. Heck, the whole reason for your product is to do this step (unless in a different mode of course).
Well, yes and no. The computer has been doing the analog stuff for quite some time. The interface steps along the analog range in the same manner the joystick actuates the sensors. I have a hard time believing anyone responsible for writing the Analog to 49-way driver code in a game is going to screw it up so badly that it bears little semblance to the original hardware.
Well, the way the mame drivers for those three games are set up is pretty dumb. The levels have to be far enough apart so the division won't hide the difference, but not too far so the division will skip one of the levels. And this is after mame applies it's OSD to core translation + acceleration. Which are after the first step. So not any three levels, but three levels that pass the above criteria.
Forgiving, yes; any, no.
Again, not only does it work, but my testing shows that it works properly in both 49-way modes.
The lines I struck through are your assumptions, not mine. The grid is not the raw data, the raw data is the 8 bits, period. I gave each sentence a letter and are addressed below.
The grid exactly represents the position of the stick based on the actuation of the sensors. It is not translated, altered or modified in any way.
How about this: You call what is present at the pins of the stick "raw data", and I'll refer to the GP-Wiz49 mode as "Raw49 operation"....oh wait, I already did. :)
a) The raw data doesn't always mean something to the app looking at it; I can't read polish and need it translated for it to mean something to me, possibly losing something in the translation. The translated polish is not raw data anymore.
Right, but a better comparison is not a translation, merely the same words written in a different font that is perhaps more legible. Same words, slightly different form.
b) The gird is not the raw data, it's an abstract vision of what the raw data represents.
A chart showing actual correlations to physical things (actuations of optical sensors) is not "abstract" . There is no theory here, as my digital calipers will attest to.
c) I guess you can do whatever you want with the grid, but the only way to make it close to raw is to put the raw data (8 bits, in binary, hex, or other number) in the square that combination represents. Anything else is a translation or abstraction, aka not raw.
Not true. Grid = actuation of sensors through a given range.
Consider this:
The actuation of the sensors is quite linear in nature, at least as linear as possible given the physical properties of the sensors and the blocking mechanisms.
So lets say they are each 1 "unit" apart from one another. I.e. Center=0, level 1=1 , level 2=2 and level 3=3. The range being 0 to 3. Please tell me how setting a range of 300, with the levels 0, 100, 200, and 300 respectively differs from the first example. Now 3000, 30000 300000 and so on. More zeros added to the numbers alter nothing as the relationships remain constant.
Yup, that's one of the main reasons I call this "raw", and your "raw49" not raw. Sort of like people shouldn't eat raw meat, the computer can't understand the raw 49-way info. You have to cook it to a different form so the computer understands it.
I happen to like raw meat. But you are glossing over the very things that this supposed "raw data" is reflecting, and that is the method used to create it. If I just gave you the following:
1: 5v
2: Ground
3: Ground
4: 5v
5.......etc through 8
What possible use is that? It's meaningless. It doesn't become "data" until you understand what it pertains to. At this point it is just "voltage"
And the binary data from the controlller is not "based on the ... spacing"
Sure you don't want to think about that one some more? If I spaced the sensors beyond the reach of the the parts blocking them, would the voltage put out by the pins on the control circuit not change? This is the "mechanical range" I was referring to and also the mathematical relationships that remain constant in Raw49 mode.
Just out of curiousity, what do you call the raw, err, data direct from the joystick, before it goes through your controller? Maybe I could just use that and forget this whole raw/not raw part. :)
I believe it is called an electronic "signal", which, btw, needs to be translated before it can become data :)
This is obviously academic, but if nothing else, there's no mystery about the what the "Raw49" mode does anymore.
RandyT
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Have you tried 720 degrees with the 49-way?
That could be interesting. I know they put code in mame to convert analog stick to spinner. Someone will have to try.
See, Randy, another thing I predicted. You should hire me!
Quote from email from myself to RandyT, for those interested in 49way to 720 stick conversion:
> > Also, I've
> > got a crazy idea I've been working on to make a
> > Williams 49-way into a 720 joystick, but it would
> > require a custom grid mapping. I was planning to
> > contact Dave about this, but...
>
> Tell me what you are after. Maybe I can hook you up
> ;-)
Well, the real 720 uses a stick that's really a
spinner on the bottom. Older versions of MAME used a
spinner for the 720 controller, but since 0.85, it's
mapped to the joystick instead. In the game, the
skater can skate in 16 discreet directions, and the
MAME code allows all 16 if you're playing with an
analog stick. While a true analog 255x256 grid gives
you a better mapping for the 16 directions, a fair one
can be made from the outside ring of boxes on the
49-way grid. Maybe some from the middle ring of boxes
in the corners, as well. That would get 720 playing
pretty well for anyone using a Happ or Williams 49
way. Might be worth checking out during your testing,
as it adds one more function to your product. (hint,
hint)
People using a Williams stick can take it further: If
you remove the spider from a Williams 49-way, there's
no resistance on the stick, so it would "spin" around
the outside of it's circular restrictor freely. And
if you want to go even further, the skinny part of the
shaft at the bottom where the spider attaches could be
fit to a lower restrictor assembly that forces the
stick to stay to the outside. There might be ways to
implement these with a Midway 49, I dunno, as I don't
have one of those.
Of course, it may prove a total failure, too. It's
just an idea I've been toying with for a while now.
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It's a possiblility with the William's stick, but the Happ is probably a no-go.
It uses a grommet like the original Pac-sticks, and you'd be fighting it the whole time, trying to keep it to the outside.
I've played 720 with a stock Saitek stick, and then removed the handle and centering spring on it.
Once the centering spring is gone, it works pretty well.
That lets the stick just kind of flop to the side, and stay at the perimeter while you use it.
I haven't used a Williams stick without the spider, but if it flops like that, no other modifications would probably be necessary to make it work well.
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Sounds like a cool idea, but I'm not sure the 49-way has the whatfor to pull it off.
There are 24 blocks on the outside ring so 16 won't go into it very well, and no real way to weight it one way or the other if it was necessary.
Sounds like job for analog :(
RandyT
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72/24=3 So it might work well. 72 is the number of teeth the 720 disc had.
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72/24=3 So it might work well. 72 is the number of teeth the 720 disc had.
But wasn't that a geared spinner of sorts? Not sure how that translates to stick positions.
Worth a look though.
BTW, The best I could get was 5 shifted buttons. How the heck does a shifted joystick button work you ask?
Well, in this case, buttons 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13 become buttons 24, 25, 26, 27 and 28 when the JoyMode Button is pressed. This will let an individual set up special functions assigned to those upper button numbers without needing extra buttons on the panel for them (pause, config, exit, whathaveyou)
Everything is in final testing phase, but my Win2K box decided to drop dead on me this evening. Dual processor boards are rough on power supplies :P
RandyT
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I just wanted to throw in another vote for adding software mode shifting capability. I for one would be willing to pay the extra money for it.
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I just wanted to throw in another vote for adding software mode shifting capability. I for one would be willing to pay the extra money for it.
It will be considered/researched for a future version.
Thanks,
RandyT
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Here's how I see the 16 directions being implemented. Yup, the corners are heavy, but it's the best you can do with the limited resolution. Besides, as Randy has been pointing out, the way it looks on a square grid is NOT likely to be the way it actually plays- maybe the corner situation will work itself out. Anyway, it's something to look at.
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Here's how I see the 16 directions being implemented. Yup, the corners are heavy, but it's the best you can do with the limited resolution. Besides, as Randy has been pointing out, the way it looks on a square grid is NOT likely to be the way it actually plays- maybe the corner situation will work itself out. Anyway, it's something to look at.
You might be on to something there....I think I can see a possibility with a little more massaging....
RandyT
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While you might be able to do it (49 to 720)... think about the play mechanics...
In 720, you have to spin the controller arround very fast to do the tricks in the air before you land. To do that with a 49 way would be nearly impossible at speed. Esp with the added resistence and long throw that the stick has.
In addition, I think the new-er 49ways are square restricted. So... making circles fast with square limits will also be akward, clumbsy, and tiake more time to rotate. (as well as possibly wearing the thing out really fast) (IE: play robotron seriously with a happs competition -vs- a true 8way leaf or a happs super. The square vs round makes a tremendous difference)
Finally.. your not going to want to try to remove the spider for 720.. then add it back to play a different game. Actually, the new 49ers dont have a spider - so youd have to remove the spring. Im not even sure this encoder work on the williams 49way spider sticks... as I recall something about them not being tested yet? Maybe I misread..
I realize that people want to save money and try to make things work... but... some of these ideas just wont pan out well mechanically.
btw - While my posts may be interpreted as randy bashing... its not like that. I presonally think randys electrical knowlegde is genious.
I just do not agree with the control methods chosen. These things can be realized by true testing - by a person that is good at a game, or has the desire to be good at the game and plays it till they are good.
IE: One person may think robotron plays fine with dual competitions. However.. that person may never have used true 8way wico leafs.
Upon trying a wico leaf... still might not realize the differnces without something to compare with right away. Because not good at the game.... nor the interest to invest the time needed to be decent at it... may never really see a need or true difference to justify buying a leaf joy or changing thier opinion.
However...In a side by side comparison... he may more easily realize the great differnces in feel, control, and playability... because they are
so close, thus not having to rely on memmory.. but rather instant comparable feedback.
There are some that may never get into robotron to get good at it. Maybe play to level 5, and then turn it off and play newer games... so dont really care. Its sad, because with just a little more effort into it... and they would find a new level of addication.
However... without the propper sticks... many will not have the desire to play it for long... because they will die too easily with the impropper sticks. Again... very sad indeed.
Which is again, all based on mechanics.
Which is why thiose controller were designed and choosen to be used for those games specifically.
A comment was made about the durrability of a wico leaf and its poor design to use a rubber gromet that wasnt designed to handle the stressed....
Firstly, when I was talking about well designed controls... I should have stated something like Atari. Esp "race drivin" (sitdown) Also, look at 720, starwars, tempest...and many other awesome control designs.
Next - wico - which wasnt an arcade manufactureer... but like happs, was a distributer.
Next... while some controls had flaws... such as the wicos cracking... that dosnt mean that they are inferior to some of the new sticks. As some of the new sticks are so radically differnt as to not control as well.
Control or wear... id gladly take control, and replace wear when it happens.
I think theres always room for improovments in the older designs... however, this rarely happens. Its not easy to design a mechanical device that is long lasting and provides great control. Its a true artform.
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im really surprized no one has done a 720 stick repro yet
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I have not.
And the Happs/Midway 49-ways are rubber grommet, and round restrictor.
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im really surprized no one has done a 720 stick repro yet
I know someone that will sell you an NOS 720 joystick for $300+
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ha, i never even liked the game that much
Here's a complete one on ebay, minus the monitor (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=13716&item=6159918815&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW)
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And the Happs/Midway 49-ways are rubber grommet, and round restrictor.
Right. And if you mount them below a 3/4" panel with only a 1.125" hole, they are panel restricted.
If you want to mount a 49-way in 3/4" material, you'll need 1 3/8" to 1 1/2" hole diameter or the corners will be cropped. Hitting the extreme corners isn't completely necessary for most things, but the 4-way DRS mode works especially well with certain games that focus on 4-way operation, with a little 8-way thrown in. ;)
BTW, when I started hearing people talk about removing the spider on a Williams stick to play 720, I got this really funny mental image of Xiaou2 in place of the American Indian in the anti-littering campaign commercials of the 70's :)
RandyT
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72/24=3
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BTW, when I started hearing people talk about removing the spider on a Williams stick to play 720, I got this really funny mental image of Xiaou2 in place of the American Indian in the anti-littering campaign commercials of the 70's :)
RandyT
The more I think about such a comment... the more I feel offended. Not so much as the pot shot to offer you personal satisfaction at my expense...
(tho this shows how low a character you have)
but rather, First, to make fun of the indians is just the poorest tasting thing to do. Esp for what had been done to them.
to take that further... it could also appear to be a disregaurd for our enviornment. And that is the very kind of thing that sets me off to no end.
People have been knowingly destroying our enviornment for years... and no end is in sight. In fact... scientists words are finally starting to be heard.. but by now, it may be too late. The evidence is there, that the global warming is changing our planet for the worst. Soon, there will be disasterous consequences for all the permanent damages done. And will there be people laughing then?!
Maybe you should take a second or two - to really 'Think' about the things you want to say and the true meanings behind them before they so effortlessly pop from your enter key.
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It was a JOKE--and a pretty funny one at that.
Yes, it was at your expense; but it wasn't hurtful or demeaning.
If you can't laugh at yourself, who can you laugh at?
You are the most vocal person on this topic; and so, were the one he thought of when this came up.
He also wasn't advocating environmental destruction, nor making ANY comment whatsoever on the original content of the ad in question.
He was making a comparison.
He merely pointed out that you are (self-admittedly) frustrated by the current trend toward using improper controls on games, and were probably beside yourself at the suggestion that a joystick, in ANY form, could even be CONSIDERED as a possible replacement for the engineering marvel that is the 720 controller.
Given your reactions to earlier posts in this thread, that conclusion is probably not far off the mark, correct?
He was using a light-hearted jab at you to point this out because he found it personally amusing, and thought others might too.
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BTW, when I started hearing people talk about removing the spider on a Williams stick to play 720, I got this really funny mental image of Xiaou2 in place of the American Indian in the anti-littering campaign commercials of the 70's :)
RandyT
The more I think about such a comment... the more I feel offended. Not so much as the pot shot to offer you personal satisfaction at my expense...
(tho this shows how low a character you have)
Oh, lighten up a bit. NoOne=NBA= has it right. It wasn't mean spirited "I wuz just pokin ya in the ribs a little with da elbow." :)
but rather, First, to make fun of the indians is just the poorest tasting thing to do. Esp for what had been done to them.
Here's a fun personal fact for you: My grandmother's middle name (rest her soul) was "Silverbell". Her mother was full-blooded American Indian and we often heard the story of the fiery, raven-haired woman she was, one time even going after great-grandfather with a hatchet (I wish I was making this up. :) ) From what I have been told, I am (just barely) by "blood content" permitted to live on a reservation.
And I remember feeling so sorry for that old guy when the stupid people threw trash at him. Made me want to cry too (of course I was just a kid the first time I saw it) It had to be one of the most effective ad campaigns ever, and it was pure genius in that, even to this day, people can make an obscure reference to it and others remember it.
to take that further... it could also appear to be a disregaurd for our enviornment. And that is the very kind of thing that sets me off to no end.
People have been knowingly destroying our enviornment for years... and no end is in sight. In fact... scientists words are finally starting to be heard.. but by now, it may be too late. The evidence is there, that the global warming is changing our planet for the worst. Soon, there will be disasterous consequences for all the permanent damages done. And will there be people laughing then?!
Maybe you should take a second or two - to really 'Think' about the things you want to say and the true meanings behind them before they so effortlessly pop from your enter key.
And oddly enough, you made some pretty good assumptions about who was making those statements and the motivations behind them. "Thinking" is something that's important for everyone to do, not just people you have a problem with.
I never made a single commentary on the validity of the sentiment of those commercials. It was a pervasive cultural symbol that most of us saw a million times (maybe literally) and it seemed somewhat apt given how strongly you feel about the subject at hand.
I mean, I like trees. Without them, the little fuzzy animals would die off before I had a chance to eat them.....
(IT"S A JOKE!!!)
Anyway, any other topics we can cover in this thread? Maybe Saint can set up a sub-board for it :)
RandyT
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id like to talk more about tasty fuzzy animals
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Just out of curiousity, what do you call the raw, err, data direct from the joystick, before it goes through your controller? Maybe I could just use that and forget this whole raw/not raw part. :)
I believe it is called an electronic "signal", which, btw, needs to be translated before it can become data :)
"raw signal" vs "Raw49tm", fine I'll go with that, and stop pushing my opinion. This is turning out to be one of those "it's emulated" vs "it's simulated" disagreements that matter little, but never end anyway. ;)
Now to the real stuff:
So the translation still happens. It's the translation I'm worried about, not who does it.
There's really nothing much to worry about. Either it works, or it doesn't. In this case it does.
First you say the Wiz49 takes out this step, then you say wiz49 does the step for the computer, then you say it doesn't matter. Actually, you've been saying it doesn't matter from the begining. [cut-n-paste]The translation still happens.[/cut-n-paste]
And since the computer has never done this step (not in official mame nor in mameAnalog+), your product is not removing it. You even say below the computer can't understand this raw, err, original unmodified data. Heck, the whole reason for your product is to do this step (unless in a different mode of course).
Well, yes and no. The computer has been doing the analog stuff for quite some time.
"doing the analog stuff" ??? Not the "stuff" I'm talking about (translate from 49-way's signal to analog). I'll say it again: the computer has never, ever translated the 49-way output to an analog one, never; not on a sound card, not on the motherboard, not in a device driver, not in windows, not in mame, not in analog+. (edit: sheeze, sam I am) Otherwise we would not need your wiz49 or dave's SJC.
Hmm, are you talking about normal gameport analog joysticks (which the computer does do "analog stuff"), instead of the specific 49-way joystick I'm talking about? Well, yes, the computer did it for gameport joysticks, while USB joysticks do this step themselves, but the 49-way joystick is not a gameport joystick.
The interface steps along the analog range in the same manner the joystick actuates the sensors. I have a hard time believing anyone responsible for writing the Analog to 49-way driver code in a game is going to screw it up so badly that it bears little semblance to the original hardware.
Of all the areas that mame make compromises, the most (IMO) is in the inputs. (I'm bias about this, though)
The analog to 49-way code was designed so (most of the) normal analog joysticks on most operating systems seem to work like (aka simulate) the original 49-way joysticks. Much like with the new-ish analog to 720 input code, or dial to rotary codes. (Note all of these are game specific, & part of the game drivers.)
The analog to 49 codes work okay with most, but not all, analog joysticks: so no, mame did not screw up royally. The question is "Is the wiz49 one that works, or not?" . . . .
Again, not only does it work, but my testing shows that it works properly in both 49-way modes.
Great to hear. We agree that this is the most important part.
The rest are details I'm interested in, think are mis-understood, or feel strongly about.
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72/24=3 So it might work well. 72 is the number of teeth the 720 disc had.
But wasn't that a geared spinner of sorts? Not sure how that translates to stick positions.
No. There was a tension chain so the stick wasn't as free moving as a normal spinner. The disc rotation was still 1:1.
Yes, the gears were just for resistance. But the 72/24=3 fact can't be used unless mame is using the old dial input type.
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Right.
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All of this is totally meaningless until one of us can actually try it. We're waiting, RandyT... :)
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yeah, what 1up said. we've typed 7 pages of posts arguing for and against your product, trying to make it better, yada, yada, yada...
but when can we have this product you speak of? for all we know, it doesn't even exist, and we've been arguing about nothin.
now i know that isn't the case, cause you wouldn't be that mean, but lets have it already. alright? or the least you could do was to test quicker, or assure us it's commin soon at the least.
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yeah, what 1up said. we've typed 7 pages of posts arguing for and against your product, trying to make it better, yada, yada, yada...
but when can we have this product you speak of? for all we know, it doesn't even exist, and we've been arguing about nothin.
Now that would be classic. :)
But not even I am that diabolical.
In any case, here's an update.
You already know about the 5 shifted buttons, but that has been tested and seems to be ok so far.
A variation of Kremmit's 16-way mode has been implemented for a total of 8-modes now. (nuts, now I gotta make another icon.....) There's only one way to implement this one, so testing with it is somewhat irrelevant. It is what it is (could be great, could be so-so) It's a freebie.
I received the Williams 49-way from Kremmit (thanks again) and am looking through the parts bin for a connector. The pins and spacing are different than the Midway stick, so the floppy connector trick won't work with this one. I don't know whether this has been brought up in the past, but it looks like a good source for connectors for this beast would be a dead AT power supply. Think motherboard power connectors......
I have a couple of comments about this control. The first is that it is the first joystick I have seen that looks like it was a major cost contributor to a machine. The second is the odd behavior of the "spider" when in action. It does something that I have a difficult time believing was intentional and tends to confirm the notion that the spider was created out of a need to avoid patent issues as much as to lend the particular feel to the joystick.
Strangely, it "pops" when you move the stick. If you think of the spider as a rigid, but bendable member, you can imagine that something weird has to happen to the leg opposite the one being stretched. The leg compresses as much as it can, but then "pops" to one side or the other as the bushing at the end allows it to spin. Looking at what happens from the bottom of the stick, especially when pushed into the diagonal positions, tends to give one a little concern regarding accuracy as it actualy creates resistance in a random direction until the spider leg(s) "pop" out of the way. The "physicists" must have missed that one, as even I can envision a spider shape where A) this wouldn't occur, and B) would eliminate the need for free-spinning bushings at the end of the legs.
So, it should be an interesting test. I'll keep everyone updated on the progress.
RandyT
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The "physicists" must have missed that one
I wonder if that isn't due to the age of the joystick.
What I'm thinking is that the spider, as manufactured 20+ years ago, was probably stretched in all four directions; and has since permanently stretched, and taken a bit of a set.
As manufactured, my guess is that it wasn't NECESSARY for those legs to spin around like that, they probably just contracted.
This is all conjecture because I haven't seen the workings of an aged Williams stick, much less a brand new one 20 years ago.
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huh...i've got a williams, and i can see what your talkin about. i'm an engineer, so we talk about this kinda stuff alot, like presstressed concrete.
so in fact, with the spider off, it would be alot smaller, than when placed on the stick, so one would have to stretch it out already to put it on. the only problem i see with this, is that you'd already have to stretch it to put it on, but then you'd have to stretch the leg even more by going in the opposing direction. might be too much stretch. all that aside, i've never seen a new one either, so i have no idea. but it does sound like a good idea.
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The "physicists" must have missed that one
I wonder if that isn't due to the age of the joystick.
What I'm thinking is that the spider, as manufactured 20+ years ago, was probably stretched in all four directions; and has since permanently stretched, and taken a bit of a set.
As manufactured, my guess is that it wasn't NECESSARY for those legs to spin around like that, they probably just contracted.
This is all conjecture because I haven't seen the workings of an aged Williams stick, much less a brand new one 20 years ago.
I was curious about the effects of age on the stick as well. However, this one is in very nice condition. Not a crack, tear or sign of wear on the spider. If it was stretched to the degree where it would make a difference, there should be some small sign of visble wear.
I could be wrong, but I don't believe the spider was stretched to the point where the throw of the stick wouldn't necessitate it's bending out of the way. Once it compresses (it doesn't take much) it has no choice but flex out. And it's not just a little. That leg has to become a full .500" shorter at the full distance of the throw.
The fact that the engineers intentionally made the ends of the spider free-spinning, speaks volumes about the design. They knew this happened and tried their best to account for it. It would have been cheaper to use fasteners that immobilized the ends, but they put in machined pins with tiny e-clips so it could move.
Now, a good possibility is that this spider is actually in too good condition. Perhaps after a couple weeks of abuse, it would find a bend direction that it "preferred" and the "pop" would be reduced or maybe even eliminated.
As it is, I'm a little less than impressed with the way it functions. I now have the code working for auto-detect of stick type and proper operation of both. I'm really happy I was able to work with an actual Williams stick to do this as the "information" that is out there describing the differences in the signals between the two 49-way varieties is, well...flat out wrong.
Flinkly, you are dead on. With that kind of static stress, the life of the spider, especially given the materials of the age, would have been much shorter. Nowadays, with some of the cool silicones available, you could actually do something like this and it would probably hold up. But not 25 years ago.
Current status....Finishing up. Not happy with the effect the "pop" of the spider has on some of the modes. There is nothing that can be done to the mappings to account for this, so the project is getting wrapped up. I think Williams stick users will still benefit a great deal from the way this interface operates, but they will need to consider the less than optimal centering mechanism when evaluating the overall performance of the combination.
RandyT
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just a quick question randy cause i've got a williams, as i've stated numerous times, and i only got it to play sinistar and maybe arch rivals, but does the stick work like it's supposed to in the 49-way modes? this is really all i'm worried about with the williams. i'll probably end up getting to happs 49-ways to use in another panel for the 49-way modes as well as the others.
and when you say it auto detects, does that mean i can turn on my machine with the happs plugged in, and then after a bit i want to play sinistar, and plug in my williams (without restarting the whole system), will the interface detect the change on the fly? or just on startup?
well randy, thanks again for such a cool product, and i'm sure it's gonna hold up to all the hype. now i''m just waiting to see what people say when they get them loaded up and working...
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Just a quick note...
The many sinistar sticks out there most likely have the Repo'd rubber centering x.
I know for sure that they are a different material... however, theres no telling if they are the right lengh (maybe he molded an already stretched out one), or the right flexibility and tention. Which may lead to inaccuracy.
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while we are adding features, why not add a 12 way mode so we can play guerilla war\ikari\etc etc
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I'm not sure where I remember reading it, but wouldn't rubber bands possibly work as replacement "spiders"?
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12 Way would require spinning functionality not inherent in the mechanics of a 49 way stick.
*edit; typo correction
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I'm not sure where I remember reading it, but wouldn't rubber bands possibly work as replacement "spiders"?
I've seen where somebody did that- but it's not necessary, since Spidermonky posted this 3 pages back:
Replacement Spiders For Sale! (http://www.wizzesworkshop.com/cart/product.asp?intProdID=20)
BTW, I don't believe the spiders on the stick I sent Randy are repros. I got two from an Arch Rivals kit that looks like it was never installed before the operator put it in storage. Anybody want an Arch Rivals Boardset & stuff?
Randy- thanks for adding the 16-way setup, hope it works well!
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I received the Williams 49-way from Kremmit (thanks again) and am looking through the parts bin for a connector. The pins and spacing are different than the Midway stick, so the floppy connector trick won't work with this one. I don't know whether this has been brought up in the past, but it looks like a good source for connectors for this beast would be a dead AT power supply. Think motherboard power connectors......
Looks like Lilwolf beat you to the AT power connector trick:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,20716.0.html
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The Williams' sticks do the actual 49-way action perfectly with the SJC, so I assume they will also do this perfectly with the new encoder as well.
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while we are adding features, why not add a 12 way mode so we can play guerilla war\ikari\etc etc
What mahuti said.
People get confused by this terminology.
2way, 4way, 8way means the directions the joystick can only have 4 or 8 directions. up/down/left/right for 4way, include diagonals for 8way.
12 position rotory josystick is a mechanical rotory joy that has 12 "clicks" in order to rotate the joystick 360 degrees. They are 8way joysticks that can rotate. There'd 12 rotated positions. In fact, optical rotories are just a 8way joystick ontop of a spinner.
It's actually 12 position, not 12 way. Most people will call the 12 position rotory a mechanical rotory, and the optical verion optical rotory.
49way joys are just as described here, there's a grid of optics that detects where the joystick was. It was a cheap simple way to have psuedo low resolution analog type joystick. For games like Arch Rivals you trigger the first optics while pushing left your character will walk, the next optic your character will jog, the 3rd optic your character will run.
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Getting back to the issue of mode switching through software, I've been thinking about this a bit more and I don't think it would be essential to upload data to the device.
If I understand correctly Raw49 mode simply takes the X/Y values of the joystick and scales them up to the number of bits that HID devices use to represent analogue values (I might be simplifying a bit).
It should be possible to write a simple driver that would reverse this process to get back to the original grid position and then convert that position through software to one of the seven modes available. If writing a Windows (or Linux?) driver is too much work (I'm assuming DOS is out of the question as this is a USB device) then I'm sure someone here could come up with a hacked version of MAME that did the same thing.
I apologise if someone else here has already come up with this idea, but this thread is getting too long to read!
One further thing, someone suggested earlier in the thread that the 49 way sticks have a square restrictor plate. Can someone confirm whether this is true? This bothers me a bit because I think this idea will only work if the 49 way joysticks have circular restrictor plates.
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Getting back to the issue of mode switching through software, I've been thinking about this a bit more and I don't think it would be essential to upload data to the device.
You're not really uploading data.
You are changing the way the device operates.
It should be possible to write a simple driver that would reverse this process to get back to the original grid position and then convert that position through software to one of the seven modes available.
Yes, but in doing so, the device itself is no longer doing the conversions externally.
This means that the computer now has to interpret EVERY command it is given.
The nice thing about this device is that it is capable of outputting DIGITAL signals.
Having a program that would do a post input D-A conversion, would completely bypass this system.
I think that any time spent on a "driver" for this would be better spent rigging external programming software, that would trigger the device to switch modes.
This would require only ONE input from the software, and wouldn't require the computer to perform any conversions DURING the game.
One further thing, someone suggested earlier in the thread that the 49 way sticks have a square restrictor plate. Can someone confirm whether this is true?
The Happ's sticks are rubber grommet/round restrictor.
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I was kidding about the rotary sticks.
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nice cover :P
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Yes, but in doing so, the device itself is no longer doing the conversions externally.
This means that the computer now has to interpret EVERY command it is given.
The nice thing about this device is that it is capable of outputting DIGITAL signals.
Having a program that would do a post input D-A conversion, would completely bypass this system.
I think that any time spent on a "driver" for this would be better spent rigging external programming software, that would trigger the device to switch modes.
This would require only ONE input from the software, and wouldn't require the computer to perform any conversions DURING the game.
I agree that my suggestion is not the ideal solution. But I get the impression that Randy doesn't want to make any substantial changes to the device at this point.
An external software driver could be written by someone independent of Groovygamegear and would provide a usable interim solution until Randy had the time and resources to come up with something better. And I don't see how he could object as it would cost him nothing and enhance his device's appeal.
Personally I would like to see the device have a ps/2 and/or console mode. Then the driverless option would really make sense.
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I agree that my suggestion is not the ideal solution. But I get the impression that Randy doesn't want to make any substantial changes to the device at this point.
Nor does he NEED to.
The device already does exactly what you are saying a program should be written to do--and does it in hardware, no less.
The result is that the computer receives a signal it THINKS came from a digital device.
A program to do what the hardware is already capable of would be a step backwards.
An external software driver could be written by someone independent of Groovygamegear and would provide a usable interim solution until Randy had the time and resources to come up with something better.
The point I was making is that it would be alot easier to write a program that will pull two input lines low on the interface, and then go dormant, than to write one that will convert the pseudo-analog signals to digital ones.
All the functionality is already built into the device to do exactly what you are suggesting.
You just need a program to trigger it.
Personally I would like to see the device have a ps/2 and/or console mode. Then the driverless option would really make sense.
How so?
If it makes sense to not have the console trigger the mode switch, why is it such a priority for the PC?
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Just a quick note to let everyone know that the GP-Wiz49 is now shipping.
Thanks for everyone's patience as the last minute features were added and the Williams code was massaged.
I think most of you will like the results. :)
Now that I can breathe a little, I'll attempt to go back through this thread and try to address any unanswered questions.
RandyT
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;D Got my shipping notice today. SWEET.
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Where can you order them? I can't find it on the site.
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Here. (http://www.groovygamegear.com/cgi/surfshop/shop.cgi?ud=UDJWQjJIOTFZSSUlJSUlJTExMTAzMDMwNDIA&storeid=1&cols=1&categories=0041&&c=detail.htm&itemid=GPWIZ49MAX)
You may have to click on the shopping cart icon to find all of the groovy stuff.
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Now that I can breathe a little, I'll attempt to go back through this thread and try to address any unanswered questions.
Good Luck!
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Thanks for the link Mahuti. I couldn't find it anywhere.
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yeah, i couldn't for a bit either.
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Randy, I fixed it for you. Just copy over your old workmap12 and use the attached graphic.
<MAP NAME="wokmap12">
<AREA SHAPE="RECT" COORDS="65,138,217,170" HREF="http://www.groovygamegear.com/cgi/surfshop/shop.cgi">
<AREA SHAPE="RECT" COORDS="64,0,216,32" HREF="page9.html">
<AREA SHAPE="RECT" COORDS="65,44,216,78" HREF="page10.html">
<AREA SHAPE="RECT" COORDS="65,94,216,125" HREF="page11.html">
</MAP>
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;D :laugh: :angel:
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12 Way would require spinning functionality not inherent in the mechanics of a 49 way stick.
*edit; typo correction
What if someone modified it and added the spinner to the bottom of the stick? Like osmeone did with a mouse hack, a cheapo solution, but hey!
All the opticals are, as someone said, is a normal joy with an added "spinner" to the bottom of the shaft.
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Randy, I fixed it for you. Just copy over your old workmap12 and use the attached graphic.
<MAP NAME="wokmap12">
<AREA SHAPE="RECT" COORDS="65,138,217,170" HREF="http://www.groovygamegear.com/cgi/surfshop/shop.cgi">
<AREA SHAPE="RECT" COORDS="64,0,216,32" HREF="page9.html">
<AREA SHAPE="RECT" COORDS="65,44,216,78" HREF="page10.html">
<AREA SHAPE="RECT" COORDS="65,94,216,125" HREF="page11.html">
</MAP>
You web guys....... :D *EDIT* Ok, you made it so easy to do, I had no choice but to fix it. You might need to refresh the page to see the change.
Thanks. That's is one of the things I planned to do. The other is a "front page" that will give an option to go directly to the store.
BTW, to anyone interested, I do have the Midway style 49-ways in stock and they are now listed at the store. Pricing is a couple bucks less than Happ prices.
RandyT
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hey mahuti,
now that you've made it known that you will be the first to recieve yours, you must tell us how this thing really works. no offense randy, but i'm just looking for assurance from a non biased party. you better get everything ready mahuti so you can tell us all the day you get it.
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Since I've never used an encoder with screw terminals I had a quick question. How do you wire to the board? Do you crimp a fork onto the end of the wire and then screw it to the board? Do you tin the end of the wire and then just screw onto the exposed wires? Or do you just screw onto the exposed wires? Not a big deal, but I'm trying to determine which GP-Wiz49 to purchase.
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Since I've never used an encoder with screw terminals I had a quick question. How do you wire to the board? Do you crimp a fork onto the end of the wire and then screw it to the board? Do you tin the end of the wire and then just screw onto the exposed wires? Or do you just screw onto the exposed wires? Not a big deal, but I'm trying to determine which GP-Wiz49 to purchase.
The easiest and least expensive way is to just strip about 3/16" of insulation from your wire, twist the ends, push it into the terminal and tighten the screw.
You can tin the ends if you want to keep things tidy, but it's not necessary as long as you keep track of the strands so they don't short to adjacent terminals.
RandyT
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now that you've made it known that you will be the first to recieve yours, you must tell us how this thing really works. no offense randy, but i'm just looking for assurance from a non biased party. you better get everything ready mahuti so you can tell us all the day you get it.
Tryin, but since I don't actually HAVE a 49-way stick it might be a bit tough. I'm bidding on a stick on eBay, but there's like a week left to go in the bidding process... who knows if I'll win, anyway. I guess what I'm saying is... better look to somebody else to get the news out asap.
Had I known there was so much pressure I would have ordered one xpresspost!
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oh, and Randy, you're welcome. ;D
Too bad you didn't have the 49 ways when I ordered, I would have added one on. I'm tempted to buy one while I'm waiting for my eBay auction to end, but since the rest of my order shipped already I just can't make myself go back and buy something else right now. :p
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Received the 49 way thing today. Too bad.. no 49 way joystick to accompany it. *leaves for a few mintues* Ok I'm back. Just ordered one from Randy. I guess I'll just have two if I win the eBay auction. oh well.
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i'd say don't get to carried away about it, but i guess that's a little too late. i just want to hear what a local BYOACer has to say about this thing. i already have to get one for my sinistar stick already, but i'd like to know if it works well with the other modes. lastly, have you ever played the real sinistar or arch rivals? i guess that would help me, to get the feel from someone who has used the actual controller in an actual arcade machine...thanks though mahuti for being so gungho.
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I was just kidding about feeling pressured.
I'm just dying to try it out myself.
I used to play arch rivals & pig skin xx ad all the time. I loved those 2 games. Used to play 'em down at Reecies Soda Shop.
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There isn't the wiggle room with this as some of you folks think.
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What, no reviews after all the fierce debating that we had?
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well no offense to your hard work at getting it to work, but i'm glad someone else is finding all the bugs before i get around to ordering mine...although it does make me fear connecting two sticks up to two interfaces. good luck, and lets hear the answers randy.
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What, no reviews after all the fierce debating that we had? I guess I'll have to be the first then. Hopefully you will find my problems and mistakes helpful. ;)
INSTALLATION:
Well, no use pussyfooting around this--installation is a beeyotch. I spent well over an hour from taking the board out of the box, and getting it wired up. Randy had mentioned that he recommends using a floppy cable , so I had assumed that it would plug right in to the stick and the board (stupid me, didn't remember the pictures showing either pins, or screw terminals, but not both...) So I fumbled around for a spare cable and cut off the end with the crossover, and went to work.
The floppy cable just provides a connector with proper spacing. It's a dual row connector, so it can't be a simple "plug and go" setup. One could solder wires directly to the points on the board where the pins are attached, but for the solder-phobic, the floppy connector is a simpler alternative.
The wiring scheme is somewhat confusing, not linear at all (2,7,1,8,4,5,3,6.....) I would have expected a more I-Pac like approach where everything followed a linear, easy to follow sequence. It took me 3 attempts to get it right, partially due to the extra confusion of needing to skip every other wire off the floppy cable. This presents a problem in that you need to remember to skip THREE wires when you get to the missing pin. I have a little experience dealing with these types of cables, but I think this is going to be a nightmare for anyone who has not done this before.
There was also some confusion over the orientation of the floppy cable wires. If you plug the uncut end of a floppy cable into the 49-way, the red-marked pin "1" is opposite of the actual pin 1 on the board. So my first wiring attempt was reversed, the second failed to take into consideration that the missing pin needed 3 wires skipped. Third time, I realized that I had started from the red wire, when I should have started from the second wire, so instead of disconnecting everything YET AGAIN, I broke off all the tabs above the joystick pins, and moved the connector up a row. :P
Even with an I-Pac, you need to hook the proper wire to the UP terminal if you want UP to work. No difference here. One just needs to work methodically and pay attention to the task at hand.
I need to stress something here. It seems like the brunt of the problem was dealing with the floppy connector, which is not part of the product. It was something that I was able to hook up in about 10 minutes with parts found around the house, which is why it was suggested. The GP-Wiz49 is just an interface. It's up to the user to hook it up to the controls in the way best suited to their individual needs/capabilities:
Here's the diagram from the doc sheet for those who might be interested:
(http://www.groovygamegear.com/GP49Diag.jpg)
I think a pre-wired cable would be a great accessory to have for this board. It would be great if the board had a pin header for the joystick (laid out so that it will work out of the box with an unmodified floppy cable), and screw terminals for the buttons.
As stated above, the floppy connector is a dual row connector so it's ill-suited for a real solution. It's just something to use if you don't have anything else. Much like cutting the power connectors off an AT power supply for the Williams varieties. However, wiring these is very straightforward. Looking at the diagram above, you just connect a wire from the pin shown on the joystick to the terminal indicated on the chart. :-\
FUNCTION:
The GPWiz 49 did some very strange things in the calibration screen. The crosshairs would jump back to center at each of the cardinal directions (hard L, U, D, R). This was most prominent in 49way, 8way, and 4way, and 2way modes. It did not make any difference in the diagonal mode.
I decided to give it the benefit of the doubt, and tried a few games. The dead zone was present there too. I found Ms.PacMan unplayable in any mode. On the other hand, q*bert played like a dream, even without a square restrictor!
This'll make you cry, but they ALL play like that .....ummm...you still have something wired wrong. The reason that it hops to center is that you are sending an "unrecognized" bit pattern to the controller because your wires are still out of order or one (or more) isn't connected. Also, make sure you aren't messing with the stick when you first give the interface power. The stick needs to be at center position for the auto-detection to work. It does this every time the unit is first given power.
I am hoping that the problems I'm having are due to some bad wiring, but I have to say I am rather disappointed that my first test drive did not go better. This kit is sorely in need of a plug-n-play connector, as there are many opportunities for something to go in the wrong place, and the nuances of the 49-way are beyond me to troubleshoot.
I guess I am having trouble understanding this sentiment. Even with a simple 8-way stick, you need to successfully route the 4 wires to the appropriate switches (and then get them on the correct terminals!) There is no difference here, other than it's just 4 more wires, and no extra terminals to ignore.
I'm going to suggest that you calmly ( :) ) remove everything from everything and start again. You may want to ditch the floppy cable in favor of something less confusing, or if you would like, I'll work with you to make sure you are rigging the floppy cable correctly. The diagram for it has been on my "to-do" list anyway.
The "feel" of the stick is actually kind of nice: it uses no microswitches, so there is no click-clack, and it also uses an old-school rubber grommet rather than a centering spring, so it has a nice mushy feel. The restrictor is round, so there are no discernable corners to contend with. This would seem to make it an ideal all-purpose stick with the correct interface. I am dying to know what I am doing wrong with my setup, because it is a very nice stick!
You don't know the half of it ;) Wait till you get things hooked up correctly.
It is just screaming for a balltop though...
Like the one in my CP? Oooops, I've said too much....
To summarize: RandyT, HEEEELP! :'(
I got your email. I'll see if I can get you through it (really, it's not that hard... I hooked up sticks 5 separate times, including a WiIlliams without getting a wire out of place. I think you may have just been a little excited in anticipation of the upcoming coolness ;)
RandyT
well no offense to your hard work at getting it to work, but i'm glad someone else is finding all the bugs before i get around to ordering mine...although it does make me fear connecting two sticks up to two interfaces. good luck, and lets hear the answers randy.
Move along....Nothing to see.....No bugs here.......:)
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Thanks Randy. I realize that the floppy is not your problem, but it might be nice to have a guide to doing it right. I don't consider myself a novice by any means, but it was not exactly straightforward. It would be easier to duplicate your results if we could all see what you are doing! :)
I still think a custom cable would be ideal.
Also, what is the reasoning behind the jumbled layout of the connections? Even the button connections are all out of order. This is one place where Ultimarc has it nailed shut. Everything is lined up logically, i.e. P1 B1, P1 B2, etc. It would make life so much easier with some order to it.
I still think this is a great idea, and what I did get working was very impressive. I knew I was probably doing something wrong, but I thought it was worthwhile to let people know the pitfalls too. Not trying to sabotage you or nothing. Just trying to give you ideas that would make it that much better. ;)
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Hmm...I'm looking at the wiring, and everything seems to be going to the right place. Do you know what wire would most likely be the problem?
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Also, what is the reasoning behind the jumbled layout of the connections? Even the button connections are all out of order. This is one place where Ultimarc has it nailed shut. Everything is lined up logically, i.e. P1 B1, P1 B2, etc. It would make life so much easier with some order to it.
The KeyWiz does the same thing ( logical groupings, just sans MAME specific board labels ) but this is not a keyboard device. A keyboard device must have each of it's inputs mapped to a key definition, and groupings are formed just by virtue of what key you assign to what input. A gamepad device has no such requirements and the data can be fed directly as a bit pattern, where one bit equals one input (this is also what makes it faster than a USB keyboard). Therefore, the inputs are governed by the pin-layout of the CPU.
It is possible to translate the data to try to arrange the inputs in numerical order, but it's a complex and unnecessary step to make the CPU perform when it really doesn't mean anything to the function of the device. I mean, would it really be that much easier to understand if input "O" went to button 15 instead of button 9? :)
I still think this is a great idea, and what I did get working was very impressive. I knew I was probably doing something wrong, but I thought it was worthwhile to let people know the pitfalls too. Not trying to sabotage you or nothing. Just trying to give you ideas that would make it that much better. ;)
No problem. If you liked the diagonals, you'll like the rest as well...
Now let me get to work on that floppy cable diagram....
RandyT
Hmm...I'm looking at the wiring, and everything seems to be going to the right place. Do you know what wire would most likely be the problem?
This is best dealt with via Email, as I expect there might be some considerable back and forth...I'll be contacting you....
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:o STOP THE PRESSES!
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I am now a believer! ;D
The first of many, I expect. Glad you got it working
(now I can go to bed :) )
RandyT
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I'll be wiring up mine tonight. Been working on some xBox banners so I been too busy... those guys are hard to work for. :-X
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Also, what is the reasoning behind the jumbled layout of the connections? Even the button connections are all out of order.
The KeyWiz does the same thing ( logical groupings, just sans MAME specific board labels ).... Therefore, the inputs are governed by the pin-layout of the CPU.
It is possible to translate the data to try to arrange the inputs in numerical order, but it's a complex and unnecessary step to make the CPU perform when it really doesn't mean anything to the function of the device.
So, why didn't you cross the wires on the PCB? Easier on the user, no extra load on the chip. (That much more expensive to manufacture, I guess?)
(In the middle of wiring, and just venting a little. Once it's together, I doubt I'll care as much.)
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So, why didn't you cross the wires on the PCB? Easier on the user, no extra load on the chip. (That much more expensive to manufacture, I guess?)
(In the middle of wiring, and just venting a little. Once it's together, I doubt I'll care as much.)
One of the reasons I have been able to offer these different interfaces quickly and inexpensively is that they share the KeyWiz PCB. Based on the specialized nature of the GP-Wiz49 and smaller market size, the pricing would need to be much higher if a special board were made just for it.
We sell a lot of KeyWiz's so we can buy large volumes of the PCB's. Doing it this way allows the other products to share the same "economy of scale" even though we sell far less of this variety (at least for the moment)
Make sense?
RandyT
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I just tried the stick in Sinistar, and it's playable, but it's hard to keep yourself in check in the heat of the moment, and keep from just flying off into space while chasing crystals.
But, the Happ 49-way is pretty easy to hack.
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Couple questions...
So, this thing only works with the KeyWiz or can we use it in conjunction with our I-Pacs?
Also, do the 49-way sticks have the same bolt pattern as say the Happs Supers or is it different?
thanks. :-*
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i was also curious about the bolt pattern
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1UP I LOVE IT!
It is probably almost as good... But one thing that might change the 'feel' is that the spiders do is make it hard to push it in a direction also. IE its not just the pull from the away side... its the bending on the side your moving closer too.
But all in all.. its probably close enought that nobody would ever know the difference without another one around.
Someone should really look into making a professional spider for those. Someone already is creating repo ball sticks for them (somewhere... on ebay a while ago I remember seeing a few).
Talk about that.. I have an extra stick.. I'll have to dig it out and see if anyone wants it. Not doing me any good.
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Will Wico handles fit on these sticks like they will on a P360?
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So, this thing only works with the KeyWiz or can we use it in conjunction with our I-Pacs?
It is a stand alone interface. You can use it in place of or in addition to any other.
Also, do the 49-way sticks have the same bolt pattern as say the Happs Supers or is it different?
It may depend on which holes you are talking about on the Happ sticks. The round ones at the corners should be compatible.
RandyT
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Will Wico handles fit on these sticks like they will on a P360?
I doubt it, but I don't have one in front of me.
While we are on the subject, here's a little tidbit that many probably weren't aware of:
The shafts on the original Midway 49-ways and the ones on the Happ licensed manufactured ones are not the same diameter. This means that a single replacement shaft can't be made to fit all varieties of these units.
Nice, huh?
RandyT
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The big question for me is this.
How are the controls for fighter games. Am I gonna be able to pull off fireball motions without too much difficulty?
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1Up I'm thrilled to hear that you got it working and it's completely awesome. I received the Wiz49s in the mail this weekend, and I can't wait to put them to work. The fact that I can have everything working off of one joystick, and reduce the control panel clutter is going to be fantastic. I'm still a ways away from getting my control panel built and wired, but I'm already dreading the 49-way hookup. If you had problems with the connection, and you're clearly more seasoned in this than myself, then I'm doomed.
I'm wondering, is it possible to crimp those tube-like connectors to the end of the wire and plug that into the 49 way's board? Randy, any 49 way wiring diagram/tutorial would be a blessing. I can figure out the buttons, but the joystick is my only concern.
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Am I gonna be able to pull off fireball motions without too much difficulty?
I can. Dunno about you ;D
Seriously though, the round restriction and rubber grommet centering makes sweeping circular movements a dream.....
RandyT
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I'm sold.
Time to redesign the CP.
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1Up I'm thrilled to hear that you got it working and it's completely awesome. I received the Wiz49s in the mail this weekend, and I can't wait to put them to work. The fact that I can have everything working off of one joystick, and reduce the control panel clutter is going to be fantastic. I'm still a ways away from getting my control panel built and wired, but I'm already dreading the 49-way hookup. If you had problems with the connection, and you're clearly more seasoned in this than myself, then I'm doomed.
I'm wondering, is it possible to crimp those tube-like connectors to the end of the wire and plug that into the 49 way's board? Randy, any 49 way wiring diagram/tutorial would be a blessing. I can figure out the buttons, but the joystick is my only concern.
Well, I could probably post a diagram of what I did if Randy doesn't beat me to it. I didn't have anything to help me, so I had to do it by trial and error. If you know exactly where things are supposed to go, it shouldn't be too hard.
I think one thing that would help would be to align the floppy connector so that the red wire is near the top of the stick when viewed from above (FYI the connector edge is supposed to face left). This requires you to break out a couple of the white tabs over the pin header so that the alignment "key" on the cable will fit. Pin 1 on the 49way board is at the top left edge from above, so the red wire now aligns with pin 1. Skip every other wire after the red one, and 3 wires for the missing pin, then follow Randy's wiring guide and you should be golden.
Just remember to cut off the end of the cable with the middle section twisted. This is the useless end. ;)
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I'll try to get something together this evening.
When I do, I'll make sure I post it here immediately after.
RandyT
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So 1up, since you seem to be the only vocal user and now have the product working correctly, do you have any more details about playability in the various modes?
Based on what you posted earlier we know that diagonal mode seems fine, and 4-way seems better now (?), and there is a specific "feel" issue with the stick in Sinistar. Anything else?
How about 8-way fighters? Specific feel in old-school 4-way games? How about using it as a replacement for analog sticks in the 49-way modes? (e.g. Aztarac; I, Robot; Escape from the Planet of Robot Monsters; Food Fight, etc.) And, of course, 49-way games...
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Ok, I just finished...
(http://www.groovygamegear.com/GPWiz49cable.jpg)
This is the way I did mine. No need to modify anything to get it to fit. Just make sure the "key" is up as shown above and it will slide right on.
Let me know if this isn't clear.
RandyT
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Thanks for posting the diagram. The one question I had was what the red wire was.
After looking at the diagram I'm guessing you could also crimp a female pin connector to each wire and plug it onto the pins coming off the 49 way joystick's board. That seems even easier than the cable because you wouldn't need to deal with the floppy cable. Am I correct on this?
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Thanks for posting the diagram. The one question I had was what the red wire was.
The red wire would normally indicate "Pin 1" on the cable. In this case, it just helps to orient the cable properly.
After looking at the diagram I'm guessing you could also crimp a female pin connector to each wire and plug it onto the pins coming off the 49 way joystick's board. That seems even easier than the cable because you wouldn't need to deal with the floppy cable. Am I correct on this?
Absolutely. The only trick might be finding a small enough female connector to do this with.
If you find some that work, be sure to let everyone else know too :)
RandyT
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It is just screaming for a balltop though...
Like the one in my CP? Oooops, I've said too much....
Tease. ;)
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sorry, i just wanted to make everyones life more difficult, but what about williams sticks? i'm gonna be using two of those, if i can get my hands on a second one, and they have a completly different hookup. does this mean i'm just gonna have to be creative? on the one i have, i actually have the old connector and some wires sticking out of that...so i seem to be in luck. also, has anyone tested a williams yet? i mean, other than randy? on second thought, i have swappable panels, so a continuous connector wouldn't work with what i'm planning.
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So 1up, since you seem to be the only vocal user and now have the product working correctly, do you have any more details about playability in the various modes?
Based on what you posted earlier we know that diagonal mode seems fine, and 4-way seems better now (?), and there is a specific "feel" issue with the stick in Sinistar.
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Speaking of user-remapping, the raw-49 mode should be tweakable, if someone wanted to write a driver for that.
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yeah.. I thought of the same thing... if this was some how integrated into Mame that would be pretty cool. The it could automatically configure itself depending of the game. like if you ran galaga it would ignore the y axis.. then you wouldnt have to do anything with the encoder but leave it in raw mode.. sounds like a good idea to me :)
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call teh mame devs
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What would be really cool is if the same modes (2/4/4diag/8/49) were selectable in Mame, then it would interpolate the raw data itself.
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Ewww...not good. Even with the deadzone set to zero, I frequently missed turns in Ms. Pac-Man. Definitely needs to be able to switch modes!
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yeah.. see mame could interpret the raw mode anyway you configure it, including deadzones.. that would be very cool.. In fact this setup could also work with analog joysticks and Mame could just ignore everything "in between" the 49 ways.. if that makes any sense.. ;D
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If I understand correctly, the GP49 just looks like an analog stick to the PC. But it divides up the normal 256x256 grid into a 7x7 grid. So all you would need is the option to remap a normal analog signal into digital-like movements, which is what the board already does in the different modes.
So it's not necessarily something that would even need to take the 49-way into consideration. This would be a nice thing to have for anyone using analog gamepads too. These absolutely suck at playing 4-way games.
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If I understand correctly, the GP49 just looks like an analog stick to the PC.
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Doesn't a 49-way + SJC + MAME Analog+ = exactly what you guys are talking about? You don't need Randy's interface to do what you're suggesting...different solution.
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Doesn't a 49-way + SJC + MAME Analog+ = exactly what you guys are talking about? You don't need Randy's interface to do what you're suggesting...different solution.
Read the entire thread.
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Doesn't a 49-way + SJC + MAME Analog+ = exactly what you guys are talking about? You don't need Randy's interface to do what you're suggesting...different solution.
I'm not sure why you would want to limit yourself like that, but yes, you could. You can also do the same with the GP-Wiz49 in Raw49 mode, which it defaults to.
(*edit*)
The above is incorrect. It appears that Analog+ does not provide the same fuctionality with the above hardware, rather requires a number of inputs on a keyboard encoder, and appears only to work with the HAPP variety of 49-way.
(/*edit*)
The advantage to the GP-Wiz49, obviously, is that it is a solution that works with all applications, with no extra setup. But that's already been covered here.
On another note, while technically, you could do something along the same lines for a true analog stick, you are talking about a lot of data to deal with. The 49-way was painful enough. Imagine a grid that instead of 49 positions had 65,536 positions. With that many positions, you pretty much need to rely on a few mathamatical equations to make decisions, and a simple equation might not exist that can properly take the mechanical operation of the hardware into account. And, on top of that, you might need different maps for every stick out there because they use varying principles of operation.
RandyT
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Doesn't a 49-way + SJC + MAME Analog+ = exactly what you guys are talking about? You don't need Randy's interface to do what you're suggesting...different solution.
Read the entire thread.
I was addressing myself specifically to brandon and 1up's idea at the very end of the thread. It seemed to me that what they were suggesting as a different approach was in fact the very solution already available before Randy even started. I was simply trying to point that out. I guess I wasn't very clear in my post.
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On another note, while technically, you could do something along the same lines for a true analog stick, you are talking about a lot of data to deal with. The 49-way was painful enough. Imagine a grid that instead of 49 positions had 65,536 positions. With that many positions, you pretty much need to rely on a few mathamatical equations to make decisions, and a simple equation might not exist that can properly take the mechanical operation of the hardware into account. And, on top of that, you might need different maps for every stick out there because they use varying principles of operation.
RandyT
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Interesting point. I had thought about this application myself and thought that perhaps you could create the true "universal" joystick if you pulled it off. But given what people are saying about the capabilities of your 49-way solution, there doesn't seem to be much reason to pursue a true analog interface. It sounds like you're within spitting distance already on all but a few games -- and who wants to play Star Wars with a stick anyway ;) :)
This is a great product Randy! Kudos!
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Doesn't a 49-way + SJC + MAME Analog+ = exactly what you guys are talking about? You don't need Randy's interface to do what you're suggesting...different solution.
Somehow people are thinking MameAnalog+ is needed with SJC (or GP-Whiz49).
This is FALSE.
SJC and GP-Whiz49 take the 49-way joystick 12 pin output and put it into a PC USB packet as an analog joystick (if in that mode). Once in analog form, any application, including official mame, can use it. This is the reason for both interfaces.
MameAnalog+ does something simular except in software, and only for the 49-way games in mame. (And as Randy says, I've not correctly doing the williams sticks as I thought I was.)
It's an either or: you use one or the other, not both at the same time. It's like hooking the SJC to the GP-Whiz49: it don't work.
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Did a couple more tests. It works fine in Street Fighter series, but my stick had a tendency to get stuck in the down position after multiple fireball attacks. I guess the grommet doesn't really re-center as quickly as on the spring sticks (you can actually see this if you invert the stick, it pushes almost back to center, then it takes a half a second to relax the rest of the way).
Hmmm...I hadn't noticed this. Maybe the rubber grommet just needs to get broken in a bit.
I really don't think that any user-redefining of the grid would help, but a center deadzone adjustment would be nice. Randy? :)
The deadzones are part of the design for each of the modes. If you change the deadzones, you lose the "magic" that this combo provides.
I wish more of the folks who have purchased these units would share their results. I'm guessing they haven't hooked them up yet or are too busy playing :)
I really, really, really like mine. My scores have increased on just about every game and an old adage about "prying from cold, dead fingers" comes to mind when thinking about anything else....Does that count as a testimonial?
:) :)
RandyT
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I'm working on wiring up a rotary switch for the mode activation... I'm DYING to get it all together, but I just haven't had time. Stupid paying clients keeping me busy. >:(
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I'm working on wiring up a rotary switch for the mode activation...
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i know that sounds like a good idea mahuti, but doesn't the gpwiz49 thingamajig default back to mode 1 whenever it is shut down and turned back on? so you'd have to make sure to set the rotary switch back to one before you started it up, right? or maybe i'm not following your leap in electrical engineering...which is very possible.
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depends on teh switch i think. If you leave it on rotary dial 3 lets say and you start it up it will think its on 1. When you click it over to 2, it will register 2. Worse case scenario is you have to click it a couple times before you start a game.
getting ideas now
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randy said that the first 7 buttons set the mode right?
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I realize this may seem like an odd question, but why all the fuss?
It's really quite simple, and fast, to put the stick into the proper mode for the game you want to play, right before you play it.
Think about what folks are doing now, pulling up on sticks and twisting, reaching under control panels and "popping" plastic components that weren't designed to be "popped", elaborate mechanical switching mechanisms.......and then after all that work, stiff joysticks with short throws?
Doesn't holding down the JoyMode button (which is also the Shift button, btw), and pressing one of your player buttons to select from not 2 but 8 different modes, and then playing on a stick that feels almost exactly like a WICO leaf switch stick, with no clicky or leaf-switches to wear out or need adjusting, sound like a dream by comparison? :)
RandyT
(BTW, I do realize that some prefer the shorter throw sticks like the OMNI's, and if I had to use a microswitch based stick, I would too....but I don't.... now ;) )
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I hope you're not referring to ME fussing. I don't think it's fuss to simplify the user interface. My button layout does not involve a long sequential series of buttons, or even multiple short series of buttons & I will not have 8 buttons available for use on my panel. I don't want or need that many... don't wanna see em, don't wanna use em. Plus, I don't want to remember, or note which button goes with which stick setting.
SO, I'm wiring up a rotary switch, which in my case will provide the simplest & cleanest appearance, and will remind me visually which setting the joystick is currently using. I don't have a panel that I can easily drop a joystick out of & rewire to this new pad just for testing, so I'd rather build a new panel and do it the right way to suit my needs.
As for the wiring part; none of the rotary positions will be tied to another button, and none of the positions of the rotary will be active until I select the "mode" button which will activate the rotary & initiate the sequence. Basically the pressing the "mode" button will activate the mode key & ground out the rotary which will send the selected signal. Now THAT's easy. One press, one mode change. If you want another mode, turn the switch, hit the mode button. Technically, once initiated, this will require an average of LESS button presses & fiddling than Randy's default setup. This interface will suppliment my current ipac, so I don't need anything on the board other than the 49way connectors, wires for the 8 modes & the mode button, making the loss of those 8 buttons for a dedicated wire on the rotary irrelevant.
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As for the wiring part; none of the rotary positions will be tied to another button, and none of the positions of the rotary will be active until I select the "mode" button which will activate the rotary & initiate the sequence. Basically the pressing the "mode" button will activate the mode key & ground out the rotary which will send the selected signal. Now THAT's easy. One press, one mode change. If you want another mode, turn the switch, hit the mode button.
Excellent idea. Nice way to get Visual feedback, and if the GP-Wiz49 is being used supplemental to another encoder and you don't want to replace the player buttons , probably the best solution.
Let me know how it works out when you get a chance to wire it.....In the mean time, I'll be looking for some suitable rotary switches to carry at the store ;)
RandyT
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SirP- you wanted to get the mode selection without 8 buttons on the panel. I figure it can be done with fewer, here's how:
My thought was to use an 8-position rotary switch, and a DPST momentary to trigger everything.
That is assuming that you don't have to depress and hold the mode button prior to selecting the mode.
The DPST would ground BOTH the mode switch and the rotary simultaneously, but cut off ground to both when released, so that the rotary wouldn't send any data to the encoder when the programming button was not depressed.
Idea stealer. :P
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SirP- you wanted to get the mode selection without 8 buttons on the panel. I figure it can be done with fewer, here's how:
My thought was to use an 8-position rotary switch, and a DPST momentary to trigger everything.
That is assuming that you don't have to depress and hold the mode button prior to selecting the mode.
The DPST would ground BOTH the mode switch and the rotary simultaneously, but cut off ground to both when released, so that the rotary wouldn't send any data to the encoder when the programming button was not depressed.
Idea stealer. :P
Wow, too much noise in this thread.....I completely missed this earlier, sorry. Kudos to No-one on this one as well.....(that made no sense....:) )
Regardless, it's still a great idea and I can't wait to see it implemented.
RandyT
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yeah, i'd love to see this one in action. i myself already run off a minipac, so i'd love to not change all the buttons in mame to take advantage of the modes.
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I'm thinking about getting a couple of these from Randy and setting them up to be software switched, so my frontend can set the proper mode for a game before launching MAME....
There, that's my idea.
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Yeah... a good artists borrow, a great artist steals. ;) The first thing I thought of when I saw this was "rotary switch." I'll give NO=NBA full credit for the momentary dpst mode switch, though.
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dang, another question. i was just making up a control panel template for my 49-ways, and was wondering how mame interprets the joysticks. mostly, do i have to worry about how i orient my williams joysticks, or can i just set that later in mame, like which direction is up and down, etc. thanks guys for the final bit of help. i just don't want to spend alot of time cutting it all out and find that i have to redo it all from scratch.
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dang, another question. i was just making up a control panel template for my 49-ways, and was wondering how mame interprets the joysticks. mostly, do i have to worry about how i orient my williams joysticks, or can i just set that later in mame, like which direction is up and down, etc. thanks guys for the final bit of help. i just don't want to spend alot of time cutting it all out and find that i have to redo it all from scratch.
The GP-Wiz49 expects the connector on both varieties of 49-ways to be to the left when viewed from above the stick.
RandyT
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More on this rotary idea...How about making the actual button on teh rotary switch. You turn the dial that then press teh dial down. Any rotary switches like that?
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I imagine that you can find some momentary rotaries, you might have a problem finding a double throw 8 position switch, though. I didn't want to order anything, so I went to my local electronics specialty store and picked up a 12 position rotary (they didn't have any 8s) and a double throw momentary rocker. Now I just have to install it.... I'll test it first, but even that is going to take some time.
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Another option would be to have the mode button trigger a relay that would close the contacts for the rotary switch.
That would allow you to use a normal arcade button, but still prevent the rotary from sending a signal when not in programming mode.
----------------------------------------------------
Yet another alternative would be to rotate the rotary switch to an "off" position after programming.
That would keep it from sending button presses during non-programming time as well.
The downside to this is that you couldn't mark, and see, what mode you are currently in via the rotary.
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mahuti:
If you want, I'll look into making some firmware mods for you. I'm thinking a special version that allows the inputs to be dedicated only to switching, which would be specifically suited to a rotary switch setup. No need for momentary connections.
Contact me if you are interested.
RandyT
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what if you just hardwired the mode switch to always be on? would switching the rotary make it switch modes or does the mode button have to be released first? if that would work then you could make the GP49 work both ways for those people who dont plan to use the buttons as inputs.. ???
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Wouldn't a couple extra buttons added to your CP look a lot better than a Radio Shack knob?
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However, I think the ideal solution would be automatic switching based on the game you've selected. No muss, no fuss. Most FEs allow you to send a commandline when you launch a game. Why don't we work on getting that implemented? :)
Agreed, 4/8 way switching in software is the holy grail for me.
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well.. maybe RandyT will invent a cheap output board based on the KeyWiz that could be used for driving LEDs, Solonoids(Qbert, T2 recoil), lamps, relays.. etc.. of course you would need something inbetween to change the TTL signal to something with more current or whatever.. but you can find lamp driver board from pinballs and skeeball machine for cheap AFAIK.. in fact I probably have a few mixed with all my junk..
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Wouldn't a couple extra buttons added to your CP look a lot better than a Radio Shack knob? :P
That depends.
You are talking about EIGHT extra buttons (1 programming, 7 mode), vs. the rotary and ONE button.
Also, the eight button method will not give you ANY clue as to what mode you currently have set.
My vision of the best button-driven solution to this would be a small module that has 7 chicklet-type buttons on it, and 7 LED's, that could be flush mounted to the CP just above the joystick.
This would let you switch modes with a single button press, while allowing you to tell (via the LED readout) what mode you are in.
As far as a software solution goes, let us know when you get it done.
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That depends.
You are talking about EIGHT extra buttons (1 programming, 7 mode), vs. the rotary and ONE button.
Also, the eight button method will not give you ANY clue as to what mode you currently have set.
Well...If you have 8 buttons (or 8 joystick switches) somewhere on your CP, you don't need 8 extras...
My vision of the best button-driven solution to this would be a small module that has 7 chicklet-type buttons on it, and 7 LED's, that could be flush mounted to the CP just above the joystick.
This would let you switch modes with a single button press, while allowing you to tell (via the LED readout) what mode you are in.
That sounds absolutely beautiful... :-X ...let us know when you have pics.
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Well...If you have 8 buttons (or 8 joystick switches) somewhere on your CP, you don't need 8 extras...
That is the problem, not the solution.
If you've GOT 8 buttons, then you don't NEED the rotary.
For 4-way games I would have, at most, TWO buttons on my CP--and those would be hooked to the I-pac.
My original idea (7 pages, or so, back) was to create a pigtail programmer inside the coin door, which wouldn't affect the CP at all.
That sounds absolutely beautiful... :-X ...let us know when you have pics.
I don't need it.
I'm just trying to help those who do.
I already have an SJC for 49-way; and 2-way, 4-way, 8-way and a Happ's analog stick for my modular system, so it would make no sense for me to replace those.
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More on this rotary idea...How about making the actual button on teh rotary switch. You turn the dial that then press teh dial down. Any rotary switches like that?
That's your Frontiline/Tin Star/Wild Western controller.
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That is the problem, not the solution.
If you've GOT 8 buttons, then you don't NEED the rotary.quote]
I would venture that most people have at LEAST 8 buttons on a typical panel. More likely, they'd have 12 or even 14 including start buttons. If you have any conventional arcade sticks on board, each of those count as 4 buttons.
Chiclet sized buttons are still taking up space (and would look ugly on an arcade machine, not to mention LEDs or selection knobs which are totally out of place) so why not just add buttons that would actually be functional as GAME buttons? It just doesn't make sense.
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I would venture that most people have at LEAST 8 buttons on a typical panel. More likely, they'd have 12 or even 14 including start buttons. If you have any conventional arcade sticks on board, each of those count as 4 buttons.
Chiclet sized buttons are still taking up space (and would look ugly on an arcade machine, not to mention LEDs or selection knobs which are totally out of place) so why not just add buttons that would actually be functional as GAME buttons? It just doesn't make sense.
I have to say that I agree here, to an extent. That was the reasoning I had behind using the selection method I did.
Everyone has lots of buttons and most would be happy to be able to add more. If you are using a keyboard controller, disconnect the buttons and use the ones from the GP-Wiz49. If you use two GP-Wiz49 interfaces, you'll have so many buttons that you could ditch the keyboard controller entirely and still have plenty of inputs. A quick setup with JoytoKey, and you'll never know the difference.
Obviously, to each their own, but that was the thought process behind the current method. As usual, there are lots of ways to get there and we all know that a home machine doesn't need to be "arcade authentic" with the controls. I mean, how many 4 player control panels have you seen in the arcades with a big ol' trackball and spinner mounted in the middle of them ? So I don't think the addition of a small rotary switch will detract too much if one leaned in that direction. :)
RandyT
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I would venture that most people have at LEAST 8 buttons on a typical panel. More likely, they'd have 12 or even 14 including start buttons.
Yes.
And again, if they DO, then they don't have to worry about alternative programming methods, or the aesthetics thereof.
On the other side of this, there is a growing movement toward swappable/modular panels that may have NO buttons on them whatsoever.
If you have any conventional arcade sticks on board, each of those count as 4 buttons.
Isn't the entire purpose of the switchability to NOT have those sticks on the panel?
Why would I want to switch the 49-way into 4-way mode if there was a REAL 4-way sitting right next to it?
Chiclet sized buttons are still taking up space (and would look ugly on an arcade machine, not to mention LEDs or selection knobs which are totally out of place)
It's personal preference, but I don't think they would look any more out of place than alot of other stuff I've seen on CP's, yours included.
why not just add buttons that would actually be functional as GAME buttons?
1) You shouldn't need an owner's manual for a CP.
2) You still have NO way of telling which mode you are currently in.
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I don't really think there's any value trying to talk someone (me) out of the rotary switch idea... just as I don't think there's any reason to talk the rest out of using buttons.
See, the thing is, I don't know exactly how I'm going mount the rotary and how it will look, I just know that I want to do it. It's not like it's hard, so I don't see where the back and forth controversy lies. The fact is, I don't have, want, or need 9 buttons (8+1) on my panel. I usually only play games that require 1 or 2 buttons. I don't have a bunch of admin buttons, don't want to add new ones either. I'm a designer. I design really good stuff. If I put it on my panel, it's going to look cool & right. I've seen some overwrought & obnoxious garbage on some panels, but that's not what I do, so don't critique something I haven't even created yet ;D
FWIW I think Randy made the right choice for the market. I'm not debating that. Buttons; they're simple.. I get that. The simplest route doesn't always work, however.... mister rotating 3-panel... you should be the first to accept that fact. ;) That's where I'm at. Arguing the pros & cons is fruitless.... this seems to be a non-issue.
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Well, FWIW, I've already figured out the basic design of a circuit that would trigger a set of switches (transistors) when a simple command line is run. It'll be available when I have time to build a test model. Very simple, and would be a totally seamless solution.
If your guests have to do anything to select the correct controls, it's already more complicated than you'd want it to be. I admit that even the two button presses required to switch modes require you to either have extra markings on your CP, an instruction card, or a very good memory.
My cabinet is a little more complicated than your average dedicated/frankenpanel cab, that's true. But that is the very reason I've been working with Peter Vogels on a custom FE skin for my cabs, so that when a game is selected, it shows you which control panel to use. It's not perfect, but it's the most user-friendly solution possible without adding several hundred $$ to the cost, and many additional months of development for some type of mechanized system.
I also don't think that there is anything on any of my panels that would not be found on an arcade game. They are all authentic arcade parts, save for the PC steering wheel. The combination of controls may not be completely authentic, but less so than your average frankenpanel. The idea was to offer flexibility, without presenting more controls at one time than are needed for the typical range of games.
Anyway, while many people may value function over arcade authenticity, there are many ways to get both. I usually try my best to find those ways. In this case, I think the best method would be to select the modes either with the 49-way itself, or automatically (having the option to manually select if desired).
Randy, there are basically 8 modes now. Wouldn't it be possible with a little different programming, to have the stick temporarily revert to 8-way mode when the Joymode button is held down, and then assign the 8 modes to those 8 directions, clockwise around the stick? Starting from Raw49 at top, all the way around to 16 way at UP/LEFT? That way you'd only need the stick itself, and one button. A ring of markings around the stick would be all the instruction you'd need.
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mahuti:
If you want, I'll look into making some firmware mods for you. I'm thinking a special version that allows the inputs to be dedicated only to switching, which would be specifically suited to a rotary switch setup. No need for momentary connections.
RandyT,
Based on this comment, will the GP-Wiz49 be able to have a firmware upgrade performed at the user's location? i.e. If I buy one, and you come out with a great fix or feature in firmware I think I would like to have (or need to have), could I flash the firmware at my location? If not, what are the options?
Thanks!
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mahuti:
If you want, I'll look into making some firmware mods for you. I'm thinking a special version that allows the inputs to be dedicated only to switching, which would be specifically suited to a rotary switch setup. No need for momentary connections.
Based on this comment, will the GP-Wiz49 be able to have a firmware upgrade performed at the user's location? i.e. If I buy one, and you come out with a great fix or feature in firmware I think I would like to have (or need to have), could I flash the firmware at my location? If not, what are the options?
Only the MAX versions are upgradable and would just need a chip swap. I don't see anything huge for changes in the near term, but if you would be interested in something like mahuti discussed, you can contact me to make sure you get the functionality you are looking for.
If there ever is a firmware upgrade (again, MAX only), it would be at a relatively low cost...most likely 4 or 5 dollars delivered.
RandyT
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Only the MAX versions are upgradable and would just need a chip swap. I don't see anything huge for changes in the near term, but if you would be interested in something like mahuti discussed, you can contact me to make sure you get the functionality you are looking for.
If there ever is a firmware upgrade (again, MAX only), it would be at a relatively low cost...most likely 4 or 5 dollars delivered.
Great! The MAX is what I was looking at anyway. I'm not looking for any particular functionality at this time, just curious about the future.
This will quite easily replace the modular control panel I've been designing. Thanks for your innovations!
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Ok, speaking of firmware upgrade. I just realized a game that is essentially currently missing.
Wizard of Wor. It is 4-way and it has 2 levels of sensitivity in each direction. Seems like it would be really easy to implement into your encoder, although then someone would have to fix mame as well to make it work.
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Ok, speaking of firmware upgrade. I just realized a game that is essentially currently missing.
Wizard of Wor. It is 4-way and it has 2 levels of sensitivity in each direction. Seems like it would be really easy to implement into your encoder, although then someone would have to fix mame as well to make it work.
I'm sure Mame would get updated if it was supported.
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Ok, speaking of firmware upgrade. I just realized a game that is essentially currently missing.
Wizard of Wor. It is 4-way and it has 2 levels of sensitivity in each direction. Seems like it would be really easy to implement into your encoder, although then someone would have to fix mame as well to make it work.
Does Wizard of Wor accept analog input, and actually use both levels of sensitivity? Or does MAME currently force it to standard 4-way? If MAME allows both levels of sensetivity with an analog stick, then Raw49 mode ought to do the job.
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Ok, speaking of firmware upgrade. I just realized a game that is essentially currently missing.
Wizard of Wor. It is 4-way and it has 2 levels of sensitivity in each direction. Seems like it would be really easy to implement into your encoder, although then someone would have to fix mame as well to make it work.
Does Wizard of Wor accept analog input, and actually use both levels of sensitivity?
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Mame has something built in where you can press shift to use the light move.
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Mame has something built in where you can press shift to use the light move.
Doesn't work for me.
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I'm not so concerned about the mode selection technique, while software selection support would be excellent, but Randy's built in method sounds fine as well.
What I really want is to be able to determine what mode the controller is currently set to. I'd like to be able to have a multicolor-LED (or maybe a LCD display) that changes color when the stick is switched between 2/4/8/49 modes...
Are there any plans to be able to determin what mode the stick is set to without resetting it?
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Mame has something built in where you can press shift to use the light move.
Doesn't work for me.
I just checked, it is implemented as the second button. WHatever your buttun 2 is, just hold that and you can turn in place.
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a quick setup with JoytoKey, and you'll never know the difference.
It has been a while since I've played with JoytoKey.
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Out of curiouslity, what games need 16way DRS?
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720 was mentioned.
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Mame has something built in where you can press shift to use the light move.
Doesn't work for me.
I just checked, it is implemented as the second button. WHatever your buttun 2 is, just hold that and you can turn in place.
That works. Randy, could you support this as Mame currently stands? 4 way mode with 2 switches each way. First switch position each way would need to send 2 keys. Space bar being pushed plus joy position. Push the joy further and it would act as a standard 4 way.
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Mame has something built in where you can press shift to use the light move.
Doesn't work for me.
I just checked, it is implemented as the second button. WHatever your buttun 2 is, just hold that and you can turn in place.
That works. Randy, could you support this as Mame currently stands? 4 way mode with 2 switches each way. First switch position each way would need to send 2 keys. Space bar being pushed plus joy position. Push the joy further and it would act as a standard 4 way.
That's a tall order. It could be done, but it would be a very specialized mode.
Wouldn't this be more well suited to software and analog operation? I.e. anything less than 1/3 the travel would be considered "turning" and beyond that it becomes "movement"?
RandyT
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Mame has something built in where you can press shift to use the light move.
Doesn't work for me.
I just checked, it is implemented as the second button. WHatever your buttun 2 is, just hold that and you can turn in place.
That works.
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I think analog would feel really sloppy due to the long throw involved, and wouldn't feel right because most of the analog sticks available are trigger sticks.
I think it's highly possible to build one out of an original Pac stick because they used the same design for both sticks, IIRC.
I think they probably just added an extra leaf to the "lego-style" leaf assembly on them.
I'd like to see pictures of one, if anybody has one.
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I think analog would feel really sloppy due to the long throw involved, and wouldn't feel right because most of the analog sticks available are trigger sticks.
Wouldn't this be more well suited to software and analog operation? I.e. anything less than 1/3 the travel would be considered "turning" and beyond that it becomes "movement"?
I think Randy meant analog operation in the sense that the GP49 presents 49-ways to the PC as an analog stick. IOW, use Raw49 (or Scaled49 ?) and software to do the job. Now, who's gonna do the software? (Robin?)
I'd like to see pictures of one, if anybody has one.
Me too!
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Hmm, found Wizard of Wor CP pics- a little blurry, but:
(http://www.quarterarcade.com/img/vol1/475_1_fs.jpg)
(http://www.quarterarcade.com/img/vol1/475_0_fs.jpg)
Hard to see the good bits, but looks like they're Pac sticks with the extra leaves you hypothesized, No_One.
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Weird. Also strange, player 1 and player 2 positions are reversed from the usual.
Never played that game, but it would be cool if there was some support for it. This is another area where it might be better to put in into Mame as an analog feature, and use Raw49 mode.
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a quick setup with JoytoKey, and you'll never know the difference.
It has been a while since I've played with JoytoKey. Does anyone know if you are able to set it up so different buttons go to, for example, left ctrl and right ctrl? Before when I tried using it, ctrl was ctrl, JoytoKey was unable to differentiate between the two.
The gamepad issue is the only thing holding me back from deciding on the GP-Wiz49 as the interface for my first cp, because Visual Pinball does not allow you to remap the keys to a gamepad.
Ok, sorry it took so long to come back with an answer to this.
I did a ****load of research today and found out a few things:
1) The latest version of VisualPinball has support for gamepads, but it seems to be limited to gamepad #1 and it's not automatic, meaning a little tweaking would be in order to be able to use it.
2) Forget number 1. There is an awesome utility that is far more powerful than JoytoKey and I'm surprised I haven't seen it mentioned. It's called RB-Joy and the latest version (8, I believe) works with VP just fine. It has a little difficulty with shift keys, but if you remap them to something a little more normal it works great. It also can send strings of characters, launch programs, and more all with joypad button presses. If you have a GP-Wiz, get this program!
Here's a LINK (http://www.rbsoft.de/rbjoy7.zip)
RandyT
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Weird. Also strange, player 1 and player 2 positions are reversed from the usual.
Never played that game, but it would be cool if there was some support for it. This is another area where it might be better to put in into Mame as an analog feature, and use Raw49 mode.
In the early days player one was often on the right hand side, the industry didn't standardize this until 1982 or so. In the black and white era most two player machines labeled the player's by color and you could play a 1 player game from EITHER side, but most of the ones that did number them had player one on the right, like Starhawk, Amazing Maze and a lot of others.
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Randy-
Got my GP49s, thanks! Hooking them up now, using Williams49 sticks. (am I the first one to test with these?) Is the pinout the same as on the Happ/Midway/Atari sticks, other than that there's only 1 ground?
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Got my GP49s, thanks! Hooking them up now, using Williams49 sticks. (am I the first one to test with these?)
Define "test" :)
You'll be the first outside test with the Williams, AFAIK. Let me know your results when you get that far....
Is the pinout the same as on the Happ/Midway/Atari sticks, other than that there's only 1 ground?
The pinouts are exactly the same, grounds and all. There are two pins dedicated to ground on each of the sticks, but only one is necessary as they are tied together.
RandyT
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Working fine, first try! :D
Well, almost- I hooked up an already-populated Arch Rivals control panel, and didn't pay attention to the orientation of the joysticks. Apparently, the folks at Williams like their sticks mounted with the connectors facing "up" when viewed from above, while the GP49 prefers them facing "left". :'( To Randy's credit, there was a warning note in the package with the GP49 telling me to mount them that way- I just got in a hurry and didn't look to confirm the orientation on the already-mounted sticks.
Other than that, it was easy. The board labeling would confuse the heck out of me if I had to work without the connection diagram that was in the package, but with the instructions, it went easy. Quick reccomendation: if you're thinking about ordering the Eco or No-Solder version, cough up the extra few bucks for the screw terminals! :police: They made hooking it up a breeze, and even though I got the wires in the right place the first time, it's nice knowing that if I HAD screwed it up, it would have been easy to fix.
One thing I will say right off about the Williams 49- there's a HUGE difference between one that's seen a lot of use and one that's in good shape. The Player 1 stick on that Arch Rivals panel has obviously been played a lot, and it feels like crap. The Player 2 stick, on the other hand, feels really, really good to me- plenty of resistance, and smooth in all directions, once you get out of the center dead-zone. There is a bit of a "pop" when you push the stick out of center, or through center. I imagaine this is the necessary evil to a spider centering system. Still, it doesn't really bother me- at first I didn't even notice it, and I'm sure that after I get used to it, I won't notice it again. Anybody who digs the Wico or P360 (heavy spring) feel will like these.
I checked out the GP49 properties in the Windows control panel, and watched the way the little calibration cursor moved with the different DRS modes- and everything seemed about the way I'd want it if I was setting it up myself. The only one I couldn't tell about is the Scaled49 mode- that one will need play testing to see if it feels right.
Play testing: Not much yet, as I have to rotate my sticks 90 degrees before I can really play. I did run some quick Pac-Man (while standing sideways to the control panel to compensate for the stick mounting :P ). I've always sucked at Pac-Man, and I still do, but I could definately see the difference the DRS made in my gameplay. Of course, you still can't FEEL the restricton, but it played much better than using an 8-way. In 4-way DRS mode, I was just as good as I ever am. (Which is to say, embarrasingly bad.)
I had a go at 720 with the 16 way DRS mode, and had absolutely no luck. At first, I thought it was a complete bust, but then I realized that MAME recently changed it's handling of analog sticks in 720, and I'm using an older version, so I guess it's time to download a more current version. Stay tuned! I'm gonna pull the spider and clean up the bad stick and have another go at 720 with the appropriate MAME version. Later on, I'll have to get one of those repro spiders and see how much that brings a beat-up stick back to life.
It's after midnight, and I'm going to bed, but I'll get back to this tomorrow evening, if my wife lets me. ;)
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After reading through all 11 pages here I've decided to take the plunge and just ordered a GP-Wiz49 and a 49-way joystick as a test for myself. If all goes well, which it sounds like it will from the reviews, I'll be replacing a total of 4 J-Stiks with these. Hopefully I'll be able to cram everything into my cocktail...
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just realize the joystick has a tall base...if you get my meaning. i was thinking of using this for a cocktail too, but you'd have to make some tall control panel pods, which wouldn't be so bad, but i was going to go for a midway look.
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After reading through all 11 pages here I've decided to...
If you can read this whole thread, then you can do anything.
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Do you need to use analog+ for multiple 49 way optical joysticks or if you order the different device numbers does window and mame differentiate between player 1 and playe two automatically.
Also does anyone have the dimensions of the Happ optical joystick
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Do you need to use analog+ for multiple 49 way optical joysticks or if you order the different device numbers does window and mame differentiate between player 1 and playe two automatically.
No, if you are using the GP-Wiz49, it communicates as an analog joystick, so you can use Analog + with it, but it isn't required and doesn't gain you anything. Actually, the problem is not MAME but windows, but with different device numbers, Windoze should remember which is stick one and which is stick two.
Don't have the dimensions (couldn't find them on Happs site), but RandyT should be able to help you out on that as well.
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I posted them somewhere while this thread has been going on.
I'm not sure if they are several pages back, or what.
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Kremmit, nice to hear you got it working fairly easily, I have been on again off again thinking about picking one of these up, and admittedly the thought that 1-up fought the install a bit made me nervous. I have done 2 cabs, one with Hagstrom KE-72 and ME-4, and one with the Mini-pac and I am spoiled on how easy they were.
If a simpleton like myself can set up one of these I will be getting one for my next bartop.
Please keep us informed, I'd also love to hear from anyone how these sticks really perform with Pac-Man, my all time favorite.
Thanks again,
Marty
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Do you need to use analog+ for multiple 49 way optical joysticks ...
No.
or if you order the different device numbers does window [differentiate]
yes
and mame differentiate between player 1 and playe two automatically.
Windows does the differentiating, mame just follows.
FWIW, the differentiate/not-differentiate doesn't matter if it's "optical" or "Hall Effect" or "optomechanical" or "digital" or "POT"; it only matters if windows thinks it's a joystick device, or a mouse device. Example: those laptop "thumb stick mice", the orange dot in the middle of some keyboards, are physically analog joysticks, but installed as mouse devices, so the act like mice.
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Hmm, found Wizard of Wor CP pics- a little blurry, but:
(http://www.quarterarcade.com/img/vol1/475_1_fs.jpg)
(http://www.quarterarcade.com/img/vol1/475_0_fs.jpg)
Hard to see the good bits, but looks like they're Pac sticks with the extra leaves you hypothesized, No_One.
I remember that
It was one of my friend's favorite games
Could you post a good shot of the artwork on the front of the CP?
I'd really like to see it
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I remember that
It was one of my friend's favorite games
Could you post a good shot of the artwork on the front of the CP?
I'd really like to see it
Nope, that's not my panel, it's just a pic I found on the net.
Haven't had a chance to get back to the Williams sticks yet- Real Lifetm keeps getting in the way.
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Just got mine hooked up tonight. I used the floppy cable without too much trouble (just make sure you count before cutting every other wire - GAH!)
Had a chance to play a little Ms. Pac and some Q-Bert. The 4-Way mode was great as were the diagonals. Looking forward to getting some more stick time in - but my pillow calls...
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Ok, got a chance to play with the Williams sticks again. Tonight I tried to get that 720 thing going- and it's a success!
First thing I did was to take my beat-up stick apart. I dismounted the ball pivot assembly, took it apart, and soaked those parts in gasoline. While the soaking was happening, I cleaned the plastic sliders, and lubed them with Lithium Grease. Then I went back to the pivot parts, and scrubbed them down with a toothbrush. I re-lubed the pivot assembly, and put the whole thing back together, but without the spider. Then I remounted the stick. I was very pleased with the feel- the stick spun freely in a circle, and I'm sure with a new spider it would feel and play like new. Without the spider, it seems to naturally want to stay at the outside of the circle, rather than bounce back and forth through the middle. A little resistance like that provided by the chain assembly on a real 720 stick would be nice, but otherwise, it feels a lot like a real one. The handle seems a little shorter than I remember, but then again, my 49-way is mounted under 3/4 inches of plywood, so there's room for improvement there. The angle is probably a little more upright, too, but that doesn't seem to matter much. I was pretty happy with the feel, mechanically, so on to the software:
I fired up MAME 0.90, and tried 720. I had to enable joystick support for the game, and remap the controls to the stick's analog axes. The 16-way digital restriction built in to the GP-Wiz49 worked, but not so well. Raw49 mode worked better. In fact, it worked pretty darn well! The skater rotated smoothly, and always went in the direction the stick was pointing. I've tried to play this game in MAME with 8-ways, keyboard, mouse, PC analog joystick, etc, and never could make it play worth a darn. With this setup, I was able to get on the half pipe and score some 700 point tricks on the first real game of 720 I've played in years- and I'm sure I'll be able to do better once I get some practice in. I'm certainly happy with it, and it's how I'll be playing 720 from here on out.
So, to sum up-
* 16-way DRS is a flop, and can be replaced with something else if you want, Randy (sorry) :'(
* A beat-up Williams 49 way can be restored with a little cleaning, lube, and a new spider 8)
* 720 plays well with a spider-less Williams 49-way 8) 8) 8)
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I got mine last week and just got around to getting it in my cabinet. I have a Namco Cyberlead Japanese sitdown cabinet with 2 sticks and 6 buttons per player. That really takes up all of the space on the cp and I really don't want to drill through the plastic to add a mode switch button. My temporary solution for mode switching is to hang a button through the front by the coin door to use as a dedicated mode button. It's ugly but it works.
I have original Midway versions of the sticks from an NFL Blitz game. To get the sticks in I had to shorten them a bit as the full sticks hit the bottom of the panel and I couldn't close it or move the sticks. I thought I was going to have to cut the sticks but on looking closer, noticed that there was no spacer in the top like many of the Happ comp or ultimates. The stick extends past the bottom of the sliders about 1/2" so my first inclination was to cut that off and cut a new slot for the c-ring. After noticing the lack of a spacer I found all I had to do was cut about 1/2" off the long white bushing and put the little piece at the top of the stick shaft and the longer piece back on the bottom thus raising the stick enough to clear the panel and provide free movement. I cut it just short enough that the bottom bushing still makes full contact with the sliders through the full range of motion.
Long term, my goal is to have mode switching accomplished by the pc. The parallel port is the easiest way to accomplish that since it does not appear that the GP-49 can switch modes using any sort of USB communication. That's my one small gripe with the product, the use of a dedicated button to accomplish mode change. Anyways, it's not an insurmountable problem but rather an "Annoyance".
Hook up was fairly straight forward. I bought the solder version an made my own harness using a 12 position .100 header for connection to the sticks and straight wire runs for the switches. Here's another place I would actually like to see an alternate method of mode control available. because the GP-49 has to use it's buttons for a mode change, I am forced to use the buttons on the CP somewhere. Whether it be a dedicated mode switch button and dual use standard buttons or even just dedicating a set of buttons for mode change. Add in a second stick and you are now required to have 1 button for mode change (can be tied to both) and 1 button on each stick for each mode you want selectable. Since I have 6 buttons for each player (7 if you count player 1 & 2 start) this isn't a huge deal but having to re-setup my FE, MAME and the other programs to recognize the new control set is more than I was hoping to have to do. Not to mention that not every emulator or front end is as configurable for controls as MAME is. Again, not a terrible thing but another "Annoyance". Since I already have everything up and running using a JPAC, I was hoping to have to reconfigure just the joystick directions rather than all controls. The shortcoming for me is that the FE I am using supports most all functions using a gamepad except "Exit". Kind of a neat one to have when you are done playing a game. Of course, I can use RBJoy, joytokey, AutoIT or a couple of other utilities to map the buttons to keys. I just don't want to :) I spent many hours eliminating stuff from windows xp, trimming my running progs, startup items, etc and just don't want to run more than I have to. Well, now I have to run joy2key or something like it until GameEx can exit from a gamepad by itself or I get the mode switching under PC control.
So how does it work? In a word, Awesome. I removed 2 t-stick+ balltops that are about a month old and am glad I did. Even with lighter cherry switches the t-sticks were just not to my liking. My kids noticed a big difference right away and all 3 said something about it. The 4 way & diagonals work great. Q*Bert is very playable. Pacman works better than with the t-sticks in 4 way mode and in 8 way, Robotron Rocks! Worth every dollar and hour of time I spent in installing and configuring. Even with the "Annoyances" for me it's a solid 10 on the 1 stick does all front.
PC Control. Here's where it gets fun. Parallel port control *could* be very easy. Especially since Randy has offered to do a variation on the chip to allow dedicated mode switch buttons. Even without dedicated mode switch buttons it is still easy to do, it may just cost more. Here are the scenarios I have put together. I expect that the various front ends could implement support for automatic mode switching very easily using the parallel port since it puts out +5V for a logic 1 and 0V for a 0. It's just a matter of sending the right combination of set bits to the port. Even in Win2000 and XP there are freeware drivers available that will let you send bits directly to the port.
1. Standard config using dedicated mode switch button. For this method, either a simple inverter circuit or a relay circuit is needed to change the way the logic works. Button presses are seen as logic 0 (ground) by the GP-49 and the parallel port starts off with all 8 data bits at this state. An inverter for each bit would make the logic work by setting the data bit active the button is pressed. assuming that data bit 0 is used as the mode switch button you only have to set bit 0 and any of the 1-7 to get to all 7 modes. After the mode is set, the bits can be cleared again. Another alternative to using a homebrew setup with an inverter circuit would be to use a parallel port relay board. They run about $30-$55 depending on where you get them and whether they are assembled, in a case, etc. Best price I have found is http://www.electronickits.com/kit/complete/elec/ck1601.htm. The advantage of using the relay board is that it also provides some isolation between the PC and the GP-49. The LEDs on the board are only active when the bits are set so not very useful as is for providing mode info. Of course, you could expand that and add a latch circuit to the LED outputs and use that for mode ID as it would hold the last button pressed and keep the LED on. Should be easy to add if you buy the kit version.
2. Same as above but instead of using an inverter it is connected directly from the parallel port to the GP-49. The FE or whatever program you use to send the mode switch commands with has to set all 8 bits of the parallel port to logic 1. Mode switching is accomplished by sending logic 0 to data bits 0 & any of 1-7 to set the mode then back to all logic 1 (no need to keep them pressed).
3. Using a GP-49 with dedicated mode switch buttons (special chip from Randy). This is probably the easiest depending on how said support is written. It would depend on how Randy does this. I assume, based on what is in this thread, that this support would only use 7 buttons, 1 for each mode and would not require a dedicated mode switch button. Instead, each input would activate the mode. Here's where the "it depends" come in. If it is just the removal of the mode switch button and whenever a button press is detected on on one of the 7 mode pins then an inverter is needed (or a relay board as in #1). HOWEVER! IF Randy were to make this chip support "Normal" (not reverse) logic all that would be needed is to connect the parallel port data bits 1-7 directly to the GP-49 and whatever bit is set is which mode it is in. All you need is a parallel cable in this case! One thing I can think of that Randy might also want to do in this case would be to only accept the first active input as active in the case where 2 inputs were set active at the same time. Maybe he can protect us from software errors where a dummy like me tries to switch modes but doesn't clear the mode bit I've previously set :) Add an LED driver board for even more geek excitement :)
Enough for now. There are my first impressions, my trials, my tribulations and a couple of ways to make real use of controls.dat.......
Sorry for the long winded post but I thought someone might pick info out of it that is useful.
Toonces
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Just a quick addition :)
If you are only looking to switch a couple of modes and don't want to dish out for the full 8 relay boards, Webtronics sells a 2 relay board for $9.95 it is here http://store.yahoo.com/webtronics/duhiswrebok1.html and is activated by either a high or low input giving you a built in inverter in the process so you could use 2 of these boards and switch between 3 different modes (1 for mode switch and 3 for modes). With these, you would cut the end of a parallel cable off and run the wires for the particular data bits directly to the active high inputs.
Toonces.
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woah, woah, woah...
is there a special interface version with dedicated mode switch buttons? i already use a minipac and don't want to hassle with changing button inputs, so i'm not even going to use the buttons from the interface for anything short of mode changes. so this special version would be appreciated. then i'd only have to have 7 buttons inside my coin door for changing modes. thanks for the info guys.
on a side note, i was thinking of getting one of those keypad things for getting into secured rooms and using that as my mode buttons, among other things. wouldn't that be neat looking inside my coin door? as if it was secure or something. they have normal buttons, right?
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I think it's a page or two back that Randy talks of the possibility of doing one that would have dedicated switching for a rotary switch. I don't know if he's done it yet though. As far as the keypads go, to use the individual switches it's going to depend on the pad you buy but most likely you'd have to bypass whatever keypad controller is in it and wire directly to the switches. On an older type that's probably doable but in a thinner, newer model it's most likely just like a keyboard and the traces are just printed on thin mylar sheets making it a little more difficult.
Toonces
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woah, woah, woah...
is there a special interface version with dedicated mode switch buttons? i already use a minipac and don't want to hassle with changing button inputs, so i'm not even going to use the buttons from the interface for anything short of mode changes. so this special version would be appreciated. then i'd only have to have 7 buttons inside my coin door for changing modes. thanks for the info guys.
If you want to use the buttons just for switching that is entirely up to you. No special version would be required in this event as it'll work the way you want it to just as it is, but will require some switching diodes.
It would work exactly like the "1-button Shazaaam!" buttons from the Keywiz. Like so:
(http://www.groovygamegear.com/oneclick.jpg)
RandyT
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Couldn't you just wire the mode button closed permanently without a button at all?
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Couldn't you just wire the mode button closed permanently without a button at all?
No. With the "JoyMode" button held down, the other inputs are temporarily "paused" to prevent unintended button presses. The only ones that aren't are the 5 shifted buttons as the "JoyMode" aslo acts as the shift.
RandyT
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Couldn't you just wire the mode button closed permanently without a button at all?
No. With the "JoyMode" button held down, the other inputs are temporarily "paused" to prevent unintended button presses. The only ones that aren't are the 5 shifted buttons as the "JoyMode" aslo acts as the shift.
RandyT
Hi Randy, Sorry if I mislead anyone about a special version. I know the purpose would be to enable using a rotary switch which would pass a constant low to one of the inputs thus selecting it. Not to derail you but could those same pins also detect a high as an active input? perhaps sensing the state of the pins on startup and responding appropriately? I don't need it for my set I have now as I got the parallel port relay board but it would be very cool to me to eliminate the relay board completely and wire directly to the printer port.
Thanks Again! Awesome product!
Oh, how are the Ball Tops coming? Will you be doing them for the original Midway sticks as well?
Toonces
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you could use 2 of these boards and switch between 3 different modes (1 for mode switch and 3 for modes). With these, you would cut the end of a parallel cable off and run the wires for the particular data bits directly to the active high inputs.
Toonces.
could you do 4 modes that way by using the diodes as shown in RandyT's diagram? or am I confused? ??? :)
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could you do 4 modes that way by using the diodes as shown in RandyT's diagram? or am I confused? ??? :)
Looking at Randy's diagram it sure looks like you could. I don't think you are confused at all. I bought the 8 relay board and it will be here tomorrow. I only plan on switching 5 of the modes leaving out 49 way progressive and 16 way and 3 empty relays for future cab tricks :)
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Randy, do you have the graphic you use to show the modes? The same one printed on the bottom of the page sent with the GP-49 only in color? I want to use that as a legend on my control panel.
Thanks!
MAN THIS THING IS FREAKIN GOOD!
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that sounds very cool :) where exactly did you find the 8 relay board?
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that sounds very cool :) where exactly did you find the 8 relay board? I sure wish Andy Warne or RandyT or someone would create an Ipac device with outputs in stead of inputs.. or half and half or maybe even an option to configure it either way. I dunno how much demand there could be for this but I could think of quite a few uses for it not just with Mame and other emulator.
You can get them http://www.electronickits.com/kit/complete/elec/ck1601.htm
Doing a search for Parallel Port Relay Board also showed a few other sellers but that was the least expensive. I spent a couple more dollars and bought one from a site on the west coast which is closer to me since I am imaptient. It will be here tomrrow. Hopefully one of the FE's will support this config soon and we'll have automatic switching based on controls.ini....... Using the diagram Randy provided above you can switch all 8 modes. I am only doing 6 so I'll have 2 left over to play with :)
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hey that looks very cool.. and already has software and a DB-25 plug.. are you buying the kit or the assembled unit? for only $5 difference its not really worth the hassle but I'm a penny pincher and I like to tinker with stuff so I might buy the kit ;D
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hey that looks very cool.. and already has software and a DB-25 plug.. are you buying the kit or the assembled unit? for only $5 difference its not really worth the hassle but I'm a penny pincher and I like to tinker with stuff so I might buy the kit ;D
I bought the fully assembled kit only for the time factor. I have been in my cabinet getting things ready for the last couple of hours. Finishing up the 2nd player stick install, etc so I didn't want to mess with building the kit tomorrow although I seriously considered it. As it is, I may desolder all of the LEDs and run them through a latch circuit. That way I can add an LED for each of the relays and run them up to the spot above the Control Panel where I plan on putting the mode legend. One LED for each mode and it will turn on and stay on for whatever mode is selected. At least that's my first thought. Something else I am going to look at is using a programmable mini scrolling LED. Check it out http://web-tronics.com/prmiledmosis.html They are cheap and hopefully I can store 6 messages and trigger one based on the mode. If not, I am sure I can find something fun to do with it. The website says they will be available the 10th but when I talked to them today they told me mine would ship on Monday.
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that mini scrolling LED mod looks really cool.. geez, you're finding all kinds of cool stuff. cant wait to see that on a control panel...
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I just got mine GP49 and a Midway joystick. But I got some trouble to get mine to work correctly (tested all modes): It dosen't register centre in both X/Y Axies (OK = work, X = not work):
OOOXOOO
OOOXOOO
OOOXOOO
XXXXXXXX
OOOXOOO
OOOXOOO
OOOXOOO
Maybe I have swapped a pin, but wich two? The rest seen to work very great, includning all buttons.
have altso sent a Technical Support mail (And here, I could not remeber your name) about this one.
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I just got mine GP49 and a Midway joystick. But I got some trouble to get mine to work correctly (tested all modes): It dosen't register centre in both X/Y Axies (OK = work, X = not work):
OOOXOOO
OOOXOOO
OOOXOOO
XXXXXXXX
OOOXOOO
OOOXOOO
OOOXOOO
Maybe I have swapped a pin, but wich two? The rest seen to work very great, includning all buttons.
have altso sent a Technical Support mail (And here, I could not remeber your name) about this one.
From my limited knowledge of these, that sounds like you have it hooked up like the Williams instead of the Happs, or vice versa.
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maybe, I just followed the instruction I got on the paper from the order. Is Willians and Midway different? If so, how can I correct this?
The joystick I ordred, was direct from groovy game gear's shop.
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maybe, I just followed the instruction I got on the paper from the order. Is Willians and Midway different? If so, how can I correct this?
The joystick I ordred, was direct from groovy game gear's shop.
Confused a little on the Midway portion.
Williams and Happ are different. I though GGG sold the Happ version, which should be the same as Midway. I would think the instructions would be for the Happ/Midway version (at least for the version GGG sells), but dunno.
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maybe, I just followed the instruction I got on the paper from the order. Is Willians and Midway different? If so, how can I correct this?
The joystick I ordred, was direct from groovy game gear's shop.
Confused a little on the Midway portion.
Williams and Happ are different. I though GGG sold the Happ version, which should be the same as Midway. I would think the instructions would be for the Happ/Midway version (at least for the version GGG sells), but dunno.
ALL of the sticks are wired the same.
The interface will adapt itself to proper operation when it senses which stick is plugged into it.
If the stick is not at the "home" position when it is plugged into the computer, it could falsely identify it. Unplugging and re-plugging it in with the stick at "rest" will allow it to recognize the proper stick.
I am working with SpaceFractal to see what his snag is.
RandyT
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From my limited knowledge of these, that sounds like you have it hooked up like the Williams instead of the Happs, or vice versa.
You were close. They don't need to be hooked up differently, but the stick is indeed being sensed as a Williams. I just verified it with my setup.
This most likely comes about from wiring the stick while it is connected to the system. Unplugging and re-attaching the USB cable will solve the problem.
Wire first + connect second = no problems.
RandyT
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I did wired first, before I plugged on. I tried many unplugs and reattach the USB cable about 4-5 times (while testing deficent joymode).
I may try to plug, and turn on the computer, when I got the change, and try again. The joystick itself work fine and it move fine (and calibrated fine), it just didden't register the very center.
I'm wen't back, when I have a change to test it again..
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I did wired first, before I plugged on. I tried many unplugs and reattach the USB cable about 4-5 times (while testing deficent joymode).
I may try to plug, and turn on the computer, when I got the change, and try again. The joystick itself work fine and it move fine (and calibrated fine), it just didden't register the very center.
I'm wen't back, when I have a change to test it again..
Ok then. The jury is still out. I need to do some one on one with SpaceFractal on this one. It is being sensed as a Williams stick, but it sounds as though it is due to another reason.
Let's take this to email.
Thanks,
RandyT
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no, I tested this on a another computer and plugged the joystick the real way, and it now works.
It was my fault... I may not have centred the joystick, wheni plugged in first time, and there were problems with that.
Sorry I wrote here, but it to late.
Now I can't wat to install it completly finheds and play with my new joystick :)
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I think this might have gotten lost in the noise from my previous posts.
Randy, do you have the graphic you use to show the modes? The same one printed on the bottom of the page sent with the GP-49 only in color? I want to use that as a legend on my control panel.
Thanks!
MAN THIS THING IS FREAKIN GOOD!
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I think this might have gotten lost in the noise from my previous posts.
Randy, do you have the graphic you use to show the modes? The same one printed on the bottom of the page sent with the GP-49 only in color? I want to use that as a legend on my control panel.
Yes I do. It's in vector form, but not in color.
What color scheme would you like?
RandyT
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I think this might have gotten lost in the noise from my previous posts.
Randy, do you have the graphic you use to show the modes? The same one printed on the bottom of the page sent with the GP-49 only in color? I want to use that as a legend on my control panel.
Yes I do. It's in vector form, but not in color.
What color scheme would you like?
The standard Blue and Red with a white background works for me :) I can also use it in vector format (unless you don't want to give that out, I understand). My cab has 2 nice places that are covered in Glass to hold just such instructions :)
Thanks!
Toonces
RandyT
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I have plans to doing the a same, but with a black background and white text (just a invert). I can "color" them my self.
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This most likely comes about from wiring the stick while it is connected to the system. Unplugging and re-attaching the USB cable will solve the problem.
Wire first + connect second = no problems.
I am working on a modular panel, so the sticks would be plugged in quite often, possibly different sticks. Is there a way to make it detect the stick without unplugging the USB cable?
Paul
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This most likely comes about from wiring the stick while it is connected to the system. Unplugging and re-attaching the USB cable will solve the problem.
Wire first + connect second = no problems.
I am working on a modular panel, so the sticks would be plugged in quite often, possibly different sticks. Is there a way to make it detect the stick without unplugging the USB cable?
If you are talking about unplugging from the interface, I don't know about the long term effects of doing that with a 49-way. But in any case, you would need to have the 49-way connected when the system is first turned on after powerdown. After that, the GP-Wiz49 will know which one it is talking to, even if it disconnected afterwards.
RandyT
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You know, 16 way DRS may still prove useful. I just remembered somebody was asking about Intellivision controllers a while back, and mentioned they had 16 directions. Anybody know if Intellivision emulators handle 16 directions from an analog joystick?
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Thanks for replying. Is there any way to force it to see a certain stick? The 49way sticks may not always be plugged in during boot (probably won't be, in fact). If I only use the Happs 49ways, is there a way to disable the autodetect, and just default to the Happs. This way (I think) I could just plug the 49way in at any time.
Thanks, Paul
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I don't really think there's any value trying to talk someone (me) out of the rotary switch idea...
Ok, the firmware is ready for this switching method :)
See this (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,34834.0.html) thread
RandyT
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All this work to make software switching work. Wouldn't it be easier/more-elegent just to add an IOCTL command to the firmware to allow mode setting over the USB connection?
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All this work to make software switching work. Wouldn't it be easier/more-elegent just to add an IOCTL command to the firmware to allow mode setting over the USB connection?
Now we're talking!!!!
I think all the work that Toonces has done is great (for a dedicated computer in an arcade cab), but . . .
I have a desktop controller and a standard PC that I play MAME games on. To use Toonces idea, at minimum, I would have to unplug my scanner from the parallel port and plug in the cable for the relay board (or buy a USB scanner :police:). Then to connect the panel I would have to plug in two USB connections for the GP-Wiz49's, plus the DB25 cable for the relay board, plus a 12Volt power wire for the relay board, and disconnect all that when I am done.
If USB programming to change modes were supported, presumably, I could have the two GP-Wiz49's connected to a mini-hub inside the CP and then just have one USB cable to plug in. . .
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All this work to make software switching work. Wouldn't it be easier/more-elegent just to add an IOCTL command to the firmware to allow mode setting over the USB connection?
I have been looking into this for a while now. Much progress has been made in the last 24hrs.
I think everything Toonces has done is great, and will serve a number of users who use operating systems other than Windows well, and I'd like to publicly thank him for his efforts.
But for Windows, I am on the verge of having a working application for software switching via the USB bus. I am successfully communicating with the device under Win98SE. 2K/XP is currently unknown, but should work as well.
More info as it becomes available.
RandyT
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But for Windows, I am on the verge of having a working application for software switching via the USB bus. I am successfully communicating with the device under Win98SE. 2K/XP is currently unknown, but should work as well.
More info as it becomes available.
RandyT
Awesome!!!! Thanks Randy!!!!
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good thing i've held off from getting this unique peice of hardware...maybe i should wait another couple months, just in case it becomes a wireless encoder. ::)
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good thing i've held off from getting this unique peice of hardware...maybe i should wait another couple months, just in case it becomes a wireless encoder. ::)
Another cool idea!!! uh, Randy???
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good thing i've held off from getting this unique peice of hardware...maybe i should wait another couple months, just in case it becomes a wireless encoder. ::)
Another cool idea!!! uh, Randy???
(Kaff!)
....not gonna happen......
RandyT
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All this work to make software switching work. Wouldn't it be easier/more-elegent just to add an IOCTL command to the firmware to allow mode setting over the USB connection?
I have been looking into this for a while now. Much progress has been made in the last 24hrs.
I think everything Toonces has done is great, and will serve a number of users who use operating systems other than Windows well, and I'd like to publicly thank him for his efforts.
But for Windows, I am on the verge of having a working application for software switching via the USB bus. I am successfully communicating with the device under Win98SE. 2K/XP is currently unknown, but should work as well.
More info as it becomes available.
RandyT
That's GREAT Randy! It's been fun messing with the Parallel port and relay interfacing but USB control of the modes is even better! If you haven't already planned it, please make sure your application can be run from a command line with the desired mode selection. An app that is purely a gui doesn't help much if you can't call it from a Front End ;)
Thanks for the great piece of hardware! It's really nice to have a decent switchable stick!
Now about those balltop handles.....
Is the difference between Happ & Midway sticks in the diameter or length?
Thanks!
Toonces
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That's GREAT Randy! It's been fun messing with the Parallel port and relay interfacing but USB control of the modes is even better! If you haven't already planned it, please make sure your application can be run from a command line with the desired mode selection. An app that is purely a gui doesn't help much if you can't call it from a Front End ;)
It definitely will be. The plan is for the software to over-ride all the other settings. I also plan to be able to select the mode through software ( Williams or Happ)
Thanks for the great piece of hardware! It's really nice to have a decent switchable stick!
Thank you again for all the effort you put into supporting the switching methods. I'm sure the concepts will still be of good use for users of other operating systems/applications.
Now about those balltop handles.....
Is the difference between Happ & Midway sticks in the diameter or length?
Primarily the diameter of the lower shaft (the Midway is thinner.) IIRC, the length was pretty much the same.
For those who have been following, I did contact my machinist as to where my samples were, and he told me to look for them tomorrow. So we're getting closer.
RandyT
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i was thinkin...if 49-ways are so good at acting like most other controls for arcade games, why not make an analog interface? then you could play analog games, 49 way games, 8 way games, 4 way games, and 2 way games. would this just be incredibly hard or tedious? and i know analog controls are really expensive, at least the ones we would stick in our arcade machines, but i think we could even overcome that step when the time comes.
so whats your opinion, randy?
p.s. i know you could kinda do this with the analog interfaces already out, but none can "switch modes" like randy's 49 way interface.
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i was thinkin...if 49-ways are so good at acting like most other controls for arcade games, why not make an analog interface? then you could play analog games, 49 way games, 8 way games, 4 way games, and 2 way games. would this just be incredibly hard or tedious? and i know analog controls are really expensive, at least the ones we would stick in our arcade machines, but i think we could even overcome that step when the time comes.
so whats your opinion, randy?
p.s. i know you could kinda do this with the analog interfaces already out, but none can "switch modes" like randy's 49 way interface.
I think I touched on this one already earlier in the thread. But one of the major things is the cost of the stick. The other is that instead of 49-positions to manipulate, you would have 65,536 positions to parse.
Also, no comparitively priced analog stick will be able to stand up to the durability of the 49-way. Analog sticks use potentiometers for position sensing. These will wear out over time. The 49-ways are optical, so they don't have this problem.
And finally, there's the practicality side. There aren't really enough stick based true analog games that don't play well enough in 49-way mode to justify dealing with all of the above.
RandyT
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There aren't really enough stick based true analog games that don't play well enough in 49-way mode to justify dealing with all of the above.
Randy -- Just out of curiosity, since you probably have more 49-way playtesting under your belt than anyone at this point, what analog stick-based games don't play well with the Happ 49-ways? I'm not talking about games like Star Wars which I know don't play well but also were never meant to be played with a stick anyway...
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But for Windows, I am on the verge of having a working application for software switching via the USB bus.
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That's GREAT Randy! It's been fun messing with the Parallel port and relay interfacing but USB control of the modes is even better! If you haven't already planned it, please make sure your application can be run from a command line with the desired mode selection. An app that is purely a gui doesn't help much if you can't call it from a Front End
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Outstanding! Will the software be compatible with versions of the board that have already shipped?
I'd like to know this as well. Mine shipped yesterday.
Art
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Outstanding! Will the software be compatible with versions of the board that have already shipped?
I'd like to know this as well. Mine shipped yesterday.
I will work something out with folks that have ordered within the last week or so.
Max users are in good shape as it will only mean a chip swap (cost of chip plus postage at the most.) Eco users....well, that's why the Ecos cost so little. But if they are unused, the individuals should contact me.
But please understand that this version is not coming out tomorrow. I will be holding further shipments until I feel certain that the firmware is in the best state it can be in. I can then polish the software "as we go".
The firmware is starting to get very complex with the 3 modes this can now operate in, and the application to set them won't be a walk in the park either.
Back to chasing bugs...... :)
RandyT
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I think I touched on this one already earlier in the thread. But one of the major things is the cost of the stick. The other is that instead of 49-positions to manipulate, you would have 65,536 positions to parse.
Couldn't you just use some "if X position is greater than 0 and less than 85, then let x position = 43" type of logic handle the grid for you? That way, you wouldn't have to have rules in place for all 65,536 positions, just a few groups of positions.
Of course, there's the question of whether or not it's worth doing anyway. Everything you said, plus the cost of true Arcade Analog sticks, plus the fact that the feel NOTHING like a regular digital joystick, more like flopping a wet noodle around. Even with the software restriction, the long throw and lack of resistance would probably make 2,4, & 8 way games unplayable on an analog stick.
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I think I touched on this one already earlier in the thread. But one of the major things is the cost of the stick. The other is that instead of 49-positions to manipulate, you would have 65,536 positions to parse.
Couldn't you just use some "if X position is greater than 0 and less than 85, then let x position = 43" type of logic handle the grid for you? That way, you wouldn't have to have rules in place for all 65,536 positions, just a few groups of positions.
Of course. Software already does this for analog sticks as that 255x255 grid is already expected to be in use by the controller. It's just not "tuned" to a specific one.
Of course, there's the question of whether or not it's worth doing anyway. Everything you said, plus the cost of true Arcade Analog sticks, plus the fact that the feel NOTHING like a regular digital joystick, more like flopping a wet noodle around. Even with the software restriction, the long throw and lack of resistance would probably make 2,4, & 8 way games unplayable on an analog stick.
I agree. The whole point is to use true arcade controls, the ones that are time tested and feel as you expect them to. If that wasn't the case, there are tons of PC-compatible analog sticks out there, any of which can be used right now. But do the mechanics feel like a true arcade 2/4/8-way and just as importantly perform, like them?
And if they did, they probably wouldn't feel right for real analog games because of all extra resistance. So it boil down to a "what would be the point" scenario.
RandyT
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I have spend I-donno-how-much-time to read this thread !!!
whew.... but its always good to see new products !!!
:)
I have a question.
I'm planning to put a 4 way (ball top j-stick) and a 8 way (Happs Competition) on my panel for player 1. On the Happs Comp, I'm also planning to do the "hacky-wackey-mouse-hack" (or some similar name.... means no disrespect, but I really forgot that guy's name) which is basically put the gear at the end of the stick, and hack a mouse on it to play ikari warrior.
now, from what I read here, I can combine the 4 way and the 8 way and it'll feel JUST-AS-GOOD by using the 49 way stick and this new product ? I would like to know, can I do the same hack with the 49 way stick ?? Can someone post 1 or more pics of the bottom of that 49 way stick (maybe at different angles) ??
ps: switchable is good, but I think I'll mostly enjoy the 4-8 way switch, but not too often using the 16 way, 49 way... etc.
any comments / advises for me ?? Thanks....
and thank you in advance for anyone who can post more details of this stick, and or how its mounted, .... (same drilling positions as the Happs Comp ??)
Thanks... (sorry if its kinda noob / off topic...)
;)
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Ok, just got 2 new sticks from happs today.
Now I'm just waiting for Randy to finalize the firmware.
;D
The downside.
I've got to build a new control panel (These are replacing tstick pluses.)
Later,
dabone
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I'm planning to put a 4 way (ball top j-stick) and a 8 way (Happs Competition) on my panel for player 1. On the Happs Comp, I'm also planning to do the "hacky-wackey-mouse-hack" (or some similar name.... means no disrespect, but I really forgot that guy's name) which is basically put the gear at the end of the stick, and hack a mouse on it to play ikari warrior.
now, from what I read here, I can combine the 4 way and the 8 way and it'll feel JUST-AS-GOOD by using the 49 way stick and this new product ? I would like to know, can I do the same hack with the 49 way stick ?? Can someone post 1 or more pics of the bottom of that 49 way stick (maybe at different angles) ??
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,20018.0.html
This is the hack you mean. Personally, I wouldn't recommend attempting it on a 49-way stick. Two main reasons:
1) Price - It one thing to hack a $9 Hack Comp to avoid paying $60 for an SNK plus the cost of Druin's board. It's another to hack a $33 stick to do the same thing.
2) Feel - From everthing I've read, the 49-ways feel great for analog, 4-way, 8-way, and 2-way play. I don't know that the rotary hack would affect that, but I wouldn't want to chance it.
Personally, I would just use the 49-ways on the main panel and the Comp hack on a swappable rotary joystick panel.
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Outstanding!
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Just wanted to update here. The software is coming along and it's getting close. Here is a screenshot:
(http://www.groovygamegear.com/GP-Wiz49_screenshot.jpg)
With any luck, I should be done with this by day's end. (anyone have any spare luck?? :) )
RandyT
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I have a little extra... I got some in a lot with joysticks at one of those insurance fire sales. I'll PM you with it as an attachment.
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awesome work randy. if you keep it up, i'd be willing to pay 50 bucks for one. but i'll gladly pay 35. ;D
it looks like your making it so it runs wither one joystick or the other. does it still check on startup? also, i know you've put alot of hard work into this and i really appreciate it, but what could be done about switching joysticks on the fly?
i feel really bad about posting this since you've worked so hard to make this interface already, so go easy on me with your answer. also, if you just don't want to work on anything else, i'd understand. i can always just turn the whole computer off and on. i just figured a switch would be easy, since any of us who are going to be switching joysticks while turned on would have switchable panels.
again, i am really sorry for asking, and thanks so much for all the stuff you've already give to the community.
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it looks like your making it so it runs wither one joystick or the other. does it still check on startup? also, i know you've put alot of hard work into this and i really appreciate it, but what could be done about switching joysticks on the fly?
I THINK RandyT posted earlier that it will still check at startup, but you can override that through the software, or select it through a command line flag passed to the software, so I would say he's got you covered. . .
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it looks like your making it so it runs wither one joystick or the other. does it still check on startup? also, i know you've put alot of hard work into this and i really appreciate it, but what could be done about switching joysticks on the fly?
i feel really bad about posting this since you've worked so hard to make this interface already, so go easy on me with your answer. also, if you just don't want to work on anything else, i'd understand. i can always just turn the whole computer off and on. i just figured a switch would be easy, since any of us who are going to be switching joysticks while turned on would have switchable panels.
TH has it right. The joysticks on the screen allow you to click on one or the other, and will override the default, which is sensed on startup. :)
RandyT
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AWESOME!!
hmm...now to think of how to switch it without leaving my FE...a switch would still be nice, but i'd have to wire it to my parallel port or something. maybe i'll talk to toonces. a double throw toggle switch...up for midway, down for williams. put it next to my molex connector for the whole thing, and while i'm switching panels, i'll switch the joystick setting.
thank you again randy, for all you've done. just so you know, once your done with the software, i'm thoroughly pleased and have no more ideas for perfecting the interface, since it's already perfect. also, i never even thought of you integrating the ability to switch the joystick along with the modes. ingenious randy, simply ingenious.
so what is your next project going to be, cause it's gonna have to be good to top this one...? you can pm me if you want to keep it secret... ;D
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so what is your next project going to be, cause it's gonna have to be good to top this one...?
I don't know which one will be next, and I can't spill the beans anyway, but any of the four I know of will be worth the wait, and may top this one!!!!
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Sweet! Randy, a couple of questions about this software.....
1) will there also be a command line interface for it so you can have the FE do the switching?
2) do I need the new version of the firmware to get this to work with the software?
Thanks
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Sweet! Randy, a couple of questions about this software.....
1) will there also be a command line interface for it so you can have the FE do the switching?
2) do I need the new version of the firmware to get this to work with the software?
Thanks
Yes on both counts.
RandyT
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Sweet! Randy, a couple of questions about this software.....
1) will there also be a command line interface for it so you can have the FE do the switching?
2) do I need the new version of the firmware to get this to work with the software?
Thanks
Yes on both counts.
Randy, Any chance you could add parallel port support to your app? That way people who have already bought the older versions could be supported without having to use the batch files? Everything you need to add support for direct parallel port support under Win9X/2K/XP is available at http://www.logix4u.net/. The DLL, source code samples and how to's are all there. The cable is easy to make. All that is needed is a db25 connector and 8 wires. the oldest versions can switch 7 modes directly, 8 modes using switching diodes. the second version could switch all 8 and the newest version could accomodate all.
Thanks!
Toonces
RandyT
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I must say that interface looks very slick. I'm glad you've seen the light and decided to run with the software switching idea.
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Randy, Any chance you could add parallel port support to your app? That way people who have already bought the older versions could be supported without having to use the batch files? Everything you need to add support for direct parallel port support under Win9X/2K/XP is available at http://www.logix4u.net/. The DLL, source code samples and how to's are all there. The cable is easy to make. All that is needed is a db25 connector and 8 wires. the oldest versions can switch 7 modes directly, 8 modes using switching diodes. the second version could switch all 8 and the newest version could accomodate all.
Looking at it now. May be something for a future release of the software.
RandyT
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Randy, Any chance you could add parallel port support to your app? That way people who have already bought the older versions could be supported without having to use the batch files? Everything you need to add support for direct parallel port support under Win9X/2K/XP is available at http://www.logix4u.net/. The DLL, source code samples and how to's are all there. The cable is easy to make. All that is needed is a db25 connector and 8 wires. the oldest versions can switch 7 modes directly, 8 modes using switching diodes. the second version could switch all 8 and the newest version could accomodate all.
Looking at it now. May be something for a future release of the software.
RandyT
Cool, Thanks! My batch files work but were only meant to be a crutch until a real developer stepped up and wrote something :) It is Waaaay too cool having the controls switch on loading a game. Now all I need is to work on some visual feedback (eye candy) and to lend a hand to the controls.ini project. Oh yeah, I need some balltops for Midway versions too :)
Thanks Again,
Toonces
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Hi tigerheli:
yes, that is the hack I'm talking about...
well..... I have worked on my cab for a long time, and its halfly done, and I'm not planning any rotating panels, swapping panels, or such. It'll have 1 panel (I'm trying not to make a franken panel...)
so, swapping/rotating/magically-popping panel is out of the question.
as for price, if it does work out, I'm willing to hack a $40 stick once, and put it on my panel, and save the headache so that I can play more game, and I'll have 1 less stick on my panel.
as for the feel.... hmmm... that is a question. I don't think any have tried it before, but from the willy-wacky thread, it seems like its not putting a lot of stress on the stick. So, I might want to try it after all...
Can anyone please take a camera shot of the bottom of that analog stick so that I can determine if its possible to do that hack ??
I mean, if it looks like it can, I'll actually order 1 and try it out !!!
maybe RandyT, can you do me this favor of posting some pics of the bottom of the stick ?? and the shaft ??
also, even before the stick is hacked, how does it feel to turn that stick ?? just want to make sure that the shaft is turnable....
thx for your time.
:)
I'm planning to put a 4 way (ball top j-stick) and a 8 way (Happs Competition) on my panel for player 1.
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Quick question for those who have wired this up. I'm threading wires through the axls of my rotating panel now and I want to make sure it's correct before I bolt everything into place for the umpteenth time.
1)
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Quick question for those who have wired this up. I'm threading wires through the axls of my rotating panel now and I want to make sure it's correct before I bolt everything into place for the umpteenth time.
1) If I'm going to be using two of the GP49 Max's (one for each player), and a MiniPac for the spinner and trackball panel, can I run the respective USB cables for the encoders to a 4 port USB hub and then plug that single USB to the PC? Will this create a conflict with the three separate devices running at the same time? I'd ideally like to wire everything up in the panels and then have a single USB cable run through the axl if possible.
2) Secondly, can these devices run symbiotically using some controls from the GP49 and other controls from the Mini-Pac? I'm thinking of mapping all the buttons to the GP49 (daisy-chaining redundant buttons on the other panels) and then mapping only the trackball and spinner to the Mini-Pac. How would this work in controlling movement by the trackball (via the Mini-Pac) and pressing buttons (via the GP49) at the same time? Would there be a lag or would you even be able to tell the difference?
3) Can I assign a button using the GP49 to the same keyboard press as a button assigned to the Mini Pac? I ask in the event I need to throw in another joystick on a third panel, and want to assign it to the same presses as on my primary joystick panel.
Any help would be immensely appreciated.
1. Yes, this has been working fine for me. I don't have a minipac but use a JPAC. Through my USB hub I have both GP-Wiz49's and 1 SuperJoypad (SNES to USB) and 1 Boom PS2/N64 to USB interfaces. So far this has not been a problem for Windows XP.
2. Yes. I use the GP-Wiz49's for joysticks only and my JPAC for all buttons. No operational problems here but you do need to think things out. A quick example of what I ran into is using the standard MAME mapping of the JPAC, Enter is SHift (player 1 start) and P1 Joy left. This no longer works as the JPAC is not geting joystick inputs. It's not a problem since you can define custom layouts but certainly something you need to take into account when using a "Hybrid" solution.
3. Yes & No. It's not that you can't make this happen, it's that the two use different technologies. The GP-Wiz49's buttons are seen as gamepad buttons and not keyboard keys. The IPAC/JPAC/MiniPAC are keyboard based devices so the two are just not treated the same way. Up on a GP-Wiz49 is not up arrow like it would be on the minipac. However, you could use joy2key or rbjoy to make the GP-Wiz49's buttons appear to windows to be keypresses so you can accomplish what you want. At least in theory :)
I am still mapping out my configs and keyboard mappings, etc after having the GP-Wiz's hooked up for a couple of weeks. It's not gameplay that is affected so much as it's FE navigation, etc. Most FE's support using a keyboard or gamepad but when you get into using parts of each, there are scenarios that the FE developers could not have accounted for so basic navigation may not work out of the box and you will need to remap either the FE's nav or your controller configs to make all of your functions come back.
Hope that helps,
Toonces
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Ughhh.. all this stuff is getting so complicated... it's fantastic that all these functionalities CAN happen, but so complex in HOW they happen. Configure mame, configure front end, configure CPmaker, configure CPViewer, create CP art, create multiple configs, install hardware, mod hardware, wire hardware, configure encoder & encoder software. I love tinkering, but it's really out of control.
Did I mention I love it?
I think it's almost time for a new book ;D
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Ughhh.. all this stuff is getting so complicated... it's fantastic that all these functionalities CAN happen, but so complex in HOW they happen. Configure mame, configure front end, configure CPmaker, configure CPViewer, create CP art, create multiple configs, install hardware, mod hardware, wire hardware, configure encoder & encoder software. I love tinkering, but it's really out of control.
Did I mention I love it?
I think it's almost time for a new book ;D
If you have some CP art usable by CPMaker, please LMK. I could use some better examples.
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I'll PM you.
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as i hear it, you shouldn't wire up buttons to two different encoders. you could end up frying either interface and even your computer. at least that is what i hear. i'm using a minipac and two gp interfaces, and i'm only going to wire the 49-ways to the gp interfaces, and the keys and trackball/spinner to the minipac. it saves having to configure everything twice too.
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Thanks for the answers Toonces. I'm relieved to hear it's working out in a similar manner to what I plan to do. It'll be nice that I can run the separate USAB cables to the hub in the rotating panel and still have them work at the same time. This way I only have to run one cable from the panels out the axl to the PC. It'll make things easier to work with.
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oh, and as for the multiple usb devices in a single hub, the only problem you may have is not enough power to all the interfaces. this is usually with things like usb lights and other such power hungry doodads, but just be wary.
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as i hear it, you shouldn't wire up buttons to two different encoders.
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oh, and as for the multiple usb devices in a single hub, the only problem you may have is not enough power to all the interfaces.
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if it hooks up straight to an outlet. most usb devices just get their power from the motherboard. if it goes to an outlet, i'd figure you've got nothing to worry about.
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Ok, I just finished...
(http://www.groovygamegear.com/GPWiz49cable.jpg)
This is the way I did mine.
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Randy, Any chance you could add parallel port support to your app? That way people who have already bought the older versions could be supported without having to use the batch files? Everything you need to add support for direct parallel port support under Win9X/2K/XP is available at http://www.logix4u.net/. The DLL, source code samples and how to's are all there. The cable is easy to make. All that is needed is a db25 connector and 8 wires. the oldest versions can switch 7 modes directly, 8 modes using switching diodes. the second version could switch all 8 and the newest version could accomodate all.
Looking at it now.
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i'd have to agree with the parallel port thing. it might be easy in this case, but overall, is almost dead anyways.
as for the I/O board, it sounds like something that everyone would be interested in. i'd love to get a knocker going and even get some recoil for lightguns that should be coming in the future. again, it' costly to develop, but since it costs 5 bucks to manufacture, you sell it for 25, and make back the investment in like 20 people.
hmmm...is this possibly one of randy's next projects? you could always start a new thread randy, and drop us hints. that would be a long thread, kinda like this one.
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Randy, Any chance you could add parallel port support to your app? That way people who have already bought the older versions could be supported without having to use the batch files? Everything you need to add support for direct parallel port support under Win9X/2K/XP is available at http://www.logix4u.net/. The DLL, source code samples and how to's are all there. The cable is easy to make. All that is needed is a db25 connector and 8 wires. the oldest versions can switch 7 modes directly, 8 modes using switching diodes. the second version could switch all 8 and the newest version could accomodate all.
Looking at it now. May be something for a future release of the software.
RandyT
Cool, Thanks! My batch files work but were only meant to be a crutch until a real developer stepped up and wrote something :) It is Waaaay too cool having the controls switch on loading a game. Now all I need is to work on some visual feedback (eye candy) and to lend a hand to the controls.ini project. Oh yeah, I need some balltops for Midway versions too :)
Thanks Again,
Toonces
Honestly, I wouldn't do it. parallel port and parallel port support is dying. My new computer at work only has usb and firewire.
The better solution would be to make a I/O USB board. But like RandyT said about custom hardware, it is expensive to develop. Kinda crazy but from scratch it costs like $100-$150 in equipment to develop a USB circuit that once developed costs like $5 to manufacture. HowardC and I have been looking into this for about the last two years. We want to create an output system for mame to output to a generic I/O interface. That way you can add extra LEDs, T2 gun recoil, qbert knocker, etc...
Also with parallel port you have the issue of making something that works in both windows 98 (sicne many people here use that for cabinets) and XP. That's not an easy task either.
Actually, making it work is quite easy. Take a look at the link I inluded. The same free DLL handles all versions of windows from 9X through XP using the same calls.
The support is for those units already sold and shipped. Since Randy decided to add support for changing modes via a USB command it isn't needed for new units. Only those of us that have already purchased and installed it.
You might want to look at the parallel port for the I/O board for LEDs/knockers/feedback systems. It's cheap to make the cable ($3-5). The program sources and examples are redily available and most computers do have them. Even PCI printer port cards are cheap if your computer doesn't have one already built in. You also get a variety of inupt and output pins for feedback from your circuit.
The main point is that Randy has versions of his product out that require a chip swap to be able to support mode switching via the computer with his new app. Now unless you bought the MAX version, you're pretty much SOL on getting the version that is controllable via USB. Is the lesson here don't buy the product when announced because you'll get screwed when it's updated or is it don't worry, the developer/manufacturer will support ALL versions of their product? The possibility exists for the developer in this case to support mode switching via the computer on older versions using a parallel port cable. For those that purchased the VE versions, this is the method you have available.
So you're saying the developer should just cut his losses and tell them "sorry, you bought my product before I realized how important it was for me to support that feature."?
I don't think Randy has that kind of attitude.
Toonces
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i'd have to agree with the parallel port thing. it might be easy in this case, but overall, is almost dead anyways.
as for the I/O board, it sounds like something that everyone would be interested in. i'd love to get a knocker going and even get some recoil for lightguns that should be coming in the future. again, it' costly to develop, but since it costs 5 bucks to manufacture, you sell it for 25, and make back the investment in like 20 people.
hmmm...is this possibly one of randy's next projects? you could always start a new thread randy, and drop us hints. that would be a long thread, kinda like this one.
Again, it's not for people who buy now, it's for people who've already purchased the VE versions that can't do a chip swap. It's the next best option for them and doesn't affect those that haven't bought one yet.
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Again, it's not for people who buy now, it's for people who've already purchased the VE versions that can't do a chip swap. It's the next best option for them and doesn't affect those that haven't bought one yet.
I forgot that the chip swap option was not an option on the Eco boards.
Actually, though, it's only for the people that bought the solder version, as there's a money-back guarantee on Page 2 of this thread for the other boards.
Randy has said he'll look into Parallel Port support, but if he doesn't, they can use the software you already developed, or I guess he will probably have some kind of "trade-up" offer on the new boards for previous customers.
<Let me go hide before I get flamed by Randy . . .>
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oh, i thought you wanted this implemented so people from other operating systems could use the parallel port. quite frankly, if you've got any version of the new or old board, you should still be able to use the program you created for parallel port operation, so you shouldn't need randy to make one too. and if your doing this for people who already bought one and can't swap chips, then they can use your program too.
so with all this in mind, i fail to see why randy has to implement any sort of parallel port stuff. please point out any errors in my thoguht process, becaus 'm no genious, so i might be missing something.
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so with all this in mind, i fail to see why randy has to implement any sort of parallel port stuff. please point out any errors in my thoguht process, becaus 'm no genious, so i might be missing something.
What it does is allow early version GP-Wiz49 Eco owners to use Randy's fancy point and click software, rather than having to manually send 01000000 (hex) to the parallel port.
Having said that, it seems like a huge effort for little gain, unless Randy has sold a ton of the GP-Wiz49 Eco's (which he may well have done . . .)
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Again, it's not for people who buy now, it's for people who've already purchased the VE versions that can't do a chip swap. It's the next best option for them and doesn't affect those that haven't bought one yet.
I forgot that the chip swap option was not an option on the Eco boards.
Actually, though, it's only for the people that bought the solder version, as there's a money-back guarantee on Page 2 of this thread for the other boards.
Randy has said he'll look into Parallel Port support, but if he doesn't, they can use the software you already developed, or I guess he will probably have some kind of "trade-up" offer on the new boards for previous customers.
<Let me go hide before I get flamed by Randy . . .>
Randy said he'd look at that in a future version and I'm good with that. For people who haven't already bought the product to come along and say that they wouldn't do it because the parallel port is dying...blah blah blah is rediculous. He should support all versions of the product with the same type of features if it's possible and non-cost prohibitive. In this one particular case it should be. The materials are cheap to get and the programming source is available free. It does cost some of his time though to add a feature to a program he is already writing.
Is that such an unreasonable request?
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i'm not saying it's unreasonable or that randy wont do it, it's just that he already sold the product, without the intent of having software do the switching. period. from a buisness standpoint, for a company to spend time and money to give past customers something more for free isn't intelligent. but since randy is so nice to us, and has done so much already, i'm sure he's willing to look into it.
but why? the gamex fe already suports parallel port switching, so why should randy create redundant code for the people who already have the itnerfaces? you could make a program yourself if you really wanted to have the switching feature.
anyway, after all that is said, i'm not gonna argue about it anymore. it's all up to randy anyways.
LONG LIVE THE GP-WIZ49 WITH DRS TECHNOLOGY (TM)
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oh, i thought you wanted this implemented so people from other operating systems could use the parallel port. quite frankly, if you've got any version of the new or old board, you should still be able to use the program you created for parallel port operation, so you shouldn't need randy to make one too. and if your doing this for people who already bought one and can't swap chips, then they can use your program too.
so with all this in mind, i fail to see why randy has to implement any sort of parallel port stuff. please point out any errors in my thoguht process, becaus 'm no genious, so i might be missing something.
I created the batch files as a means to accomplish something that at the time, Randy had no intentions of doing. Look through this gigantic thread. How many times was it asked about mode switching via USB or under computer control? What were Randy's answers? To paraphrase "Someone else can figure out how to make it switch automatically"
Now, he is adding support for such. A major selling point. Automatically reconfiguring controls! Those that bought the solder versions early are just SOL? Not completely. You can use the hack I threw together to accomplish it. But Randy has the opportunity to support all versions of his product using the same app he is already writing. It unifiy's support for the FE programmers too. They don't have to do anything different. They call the same app and can integrate it much tighter than if they have to let the user be able to change it to a different app in order to support the older Eco versions.
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Again, it's not for people who buy now, it's for people who've already purchased the VE versions that can't do a chip swap. It's the next best option for them and doesn't affect those that haven't bought one yet.
I forgot that the chip swap option was not an option on the Eco boards.
Actually, though, it's only for the people that bought the solder version, as there's a money-back guarantee on Page 2 of this thread for the other boards.
Randy has said he'll look into Parallel Port support, but if he doesn't, they can use the software you already developed, or I guess he will probably have some kind of "trade-up" offer on the new boards for previous customers.
<Let me go hide before I get flamed by Randy . . .>
Hehe. No flaming, but let's not get confused with the guarantee. That was a performance guarantee.
As I said, I will try to deal with this as humanely as possible. I'm just an (incorporated) guy, not a deep pocketed mega corporation. I've put a lot more work into this project, that should really be cause for a price hike, and I'm still not done. If I had to pay someone to write software for me, this would have been a sizable investment.
But hopefully at the end, it will be all things to all people and I can move onto the next project.....and no, I won't be raising the price :) .
RandyT
BTW, As long as the PPort libraries aren't too crazy, I should be able to throw "unsupported" support in for them. Someone else will have to do the testing though ;).
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i'm not saying it's unreasonable or that randy wont do it, it's just that he already sold the product, without the intent of having software do the switching. period. from a buisness standpoint, for a company to spend time and money to give past customers something more for free isn't intelligent. but since randy is so nice to us, and has done so much already, i'm sure he's willing to look into it.
but why? the gamex fe already suports parallel port switching, so why should randy create redundant code for the people who already have the itnerfaces? you could make a program yourself if you really wanted to have the switching feature.
anyway, after all that is said, i'm not gonna argue about it anymore. it's all up to randy anyways.
LONG LIVE THE GP-WIZ49 WITH DRS TECHNOLOGY (TM)
Man, how wrong is that? "Screw the past customers. We already got their money!"
It may not be true for you, but since I've built my machine, I have built or assisted 4 of my friends with theirs. Who do you think they ask what controls, etc to buy? Where do you think I send them? Up until the GP-Wiz49 it was ultimarc where they spent on average of $150 for video cards and interfaces. Now I have new controls. 1 has already used them and wants to do the same thing. Where do you think I send them? For a business not to spend their time making sure all of their customers happy isn't intelligent. To add a feature that costs only more time with an application you are already in the process of developing isn't asking a whole heck of a lot. That's how 16 way mode got into the product.
As far as Randy is concerned, I am not worried about it. He said he would look into it and possibly include it in a later version. Good enough.
Why would I want his app vs the batch files I threw together? Simple. I want the features that it offers. A nice gui and the same type of support that new purchasers get.
GameEx supports the batch files to accomplish the mode change via a run before and run after command that the user can enter for each rom. If the same app can be used in all cases, that support could be integrated into GameEx and other FE's on a tighter basis. It becomes a feature that a user can turn on rather than configure and change themselves.
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Again, it's not for people who buy now, it's for people who've already purchased the VE versions that can't do a chip swap. It's the next best option for them and doesn't affect those that haven't bought one yet.
I forgot that the chip swap option was not an option on the Eco boards.
Actually, though, it's only for the people that bought the solder version, as there's a money-back guarantee on Page 2 of this thread for the other boards.
Randy has said he'll look into Parallel Port support, but if he doesn't, they can use the software you already developed, or I guess he will probably have some kind of "trade-up" offer on the new boards for previous customers.
<Let me go hide before I get flamed by Randy . . .>
Hehe. No flaming, but let's not get confused with the guarantee. That was a performance guarantee.
As I said, I will try to deal with this as humanely as possible. I'm just an (incorporated) guy, not a deep pocketed mega corporation. I've put a lot more work into this project, that should really be cause for a price hike, and I'm still not done. If I had to pay someone to write software for me, this would have been a sizable investment.
But hopefully at the end, it will be all things to all people and I can move onto the next project.....and no, I won't be raising the price :) .
RandyT
BTW, As long as the PPort libraries aren't too crazy, I should be able to throw "unsupported" support in for them. Someone else will have to do the testing though ;).
Thanks Rany, I have no doubt that you will give it a shot and I appreciate it immensly. Support from a Company (or incorporated guy) is very important to me when I decide to return and buy more product.
Toonces
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Since your already spending too much time on this...
How about a new option for you?
Now that you have USB loading/configuring.
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Again, it's not for people who buy now, it's for people who've already purchased the VE versions that can't do a chip swap. It's the next best option for them and doesn't affect those that haven't bought one yet.
I forgot that the chip swap option was not an option on the Eco boards.
Actually, though, it's only for the people that bought the solder version, as there's a money-back guarantee on Page 2 of this thread for the other boards.
Randy has said he'll look into Parallel Port support, but if he doesn't, they can use the software you already developed, or I guess he will probably have some kind of "trade-up" offer on the new boards for previous customers.
<Let me go hide before I get flamed by Randy . . .>
Hehe. No flaming, but let's not get confused with the guarantee. That was a performance guarantee.
As I said, I will try to deal with this as humanely as possible. I'm just an (incorporated) guy, not a deep pocketed mega corporation. I've put a lot more work into this project, that should really be cause for a price hike, and I'm still not done. If I had to pay someone to write software for me, this would have been a sizable investment.
But hopefully at the end, it will be all things to all people and I can move onto the next project.....and no, I won't be raising the price :) .
RandyT
BTW, As long as the PPort libraries aren't too crazy, I should be able to throw "unsupported" support in for them. Someone else will have to do the testing though ;).
Oh, BTW, How's it coming with the balltops? Time to send Vinny over to your machinist for a little "Talk"? :) Since the Midway's don't take the same size, I may just buy a couple of the new sticks with balltops from you and use the midway's in a NeoGeo cab.
Thanks Again!
Toonces
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OKAY, THERE'VE BEEN
FIVE SEVEN REPLIES SINCE I STARTED THIS, SOMEONE LET ME POST IT!!!
Toonces, don't take this wrong, I think what you have done is great, but you have to realize something, which I will get to at the end of this reply:
Randy said he'd look at that in a future version and I'm good with that.
As you should be. . .
For people who haven't already bought the product to come along and say that they wouldn't do it because the parallel port is dying...blah blah blah is rediculous.
Not really.
He should support all versions of the product with the same type of features if it's possible and non-cost prohibitive. In this one particular case it should be. The materials are cheap to get and the programming source is available free. It does cost some of his time though to add a feature to a program he is already writing.
Is that such an unreasonable request?
Okay, now to the meat of my reply. RandyT never added support for switching modes via the parallel port to the original board. You (Toonces) figured that out b/c you found a relay board that could accept parallel port output to set the relays and figured out how to interface this with the original board. I again commend you for this.
However, you probably could have found a way to control some type of relay board using the serial port, or firewire, or bluetooth, or IDE, or Serial ATA or any number of other protocols.
Does that mean that RandyT must ensure that the new software can also communicate via any of the protocols I mentioned above, just in case some user finds a way to program an old board that way? (not to me, it doesn't).
Is it unreasonable to ask Randy to support parallel port programming, since you have working hardware that uses it? (not to me, it's not, but you've already asked that and Randy's already said he would try. And for that matter, if Randy were to say - I tried and it's not worth my trouble, then I think that's fair enough and all you can ask).
How many times was it asked about mode switching via USB or under computer control? What were Randy's answers? To paraphrase "Someone else can figure out how to make it switch automatically"
I think if you re-read the thread (I don't intend to), Randy's answers were more along the lines of "The current version does not support software switching." Which is true, and the new version will.
Now, he is adding support for such. A major selling point. Automatically reconfiguring controls! Those that bought the solder versions early are just SOL?
All manufacturers have the right to support their products and upgrade them as they see fit. The GP-Wiz49 came out after a lot of people bought P360's and/or Oscar's push/pull spinner was released right after SOMEONE bought a basic version, or discontinued right before SOMEONE ELSE would buy it. It happens, and sometimes people are SOL.
It unifiy's support for the FE programmers too. They don't have to do anything different. They call the same app and can integrate it much tighter than if they have to let the user be able to change it to a different app in order to support the older Eco versions.
Hate to bust your bubble, and it's great that GamEx added support for it, but I think all the other FE devs have been sitting on the fence, and will likely add support for Randy's software solution only and not the previous parallel port support solution.
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Hehe. No flaming, but let's not get confused with the guarantee. That was a performance guarantee.
As I said, I will try to deal with this as humanely as possible. I'm just an (incorporated) guy, not a deep pocketed mega corporation. I've put a lot more work into this project, that should really be cause for a price hike, and I'm still not done. If I had to pay someone to write software for me, this would have been a sizable investment.
But hopefully at the end, it will be all things to all people and I can move onto the next project.....and no, I won't be raising the price :) .
RandyT
BTW, As long as the PPort libraries aren't too crazy, I should be able to throw "unsupported" support in for them. Someone else will have to do the testing though ;).
Well-stated. Thanks, Randy!!!
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Hate to bust your bubble, and it's great that GamEx added support for it, but I think all the other FE devs have been sitting on the fence, and will likely add support for Randy's software solution only and not the previous parallel port support solution.
And therein lies my point. By adding support by using the free, available DLL to his app, Randy can ensure ALL of his customers that bought early have the opportunity to experience the best features of his product.
Toonces
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But hopefully at the end, it will be all things to all people and I can move onto the next project...
A one size fits all lightgun solution perhaps? (I can dream can't I?)
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So, Randy, Can I order my 2 boards now?
Later,
dabone
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So, Randy, Can I order my 2 boards now?
Sorry, my stamina ran out, and real-life (tm) kicked in yesterday.
Things are looking good, but I need to make sure there are no problems once the code hits the chip. All testing of the new code has been through the development system, and while there shouldn't be any difference, you just never know.
I also need to tweak one small thing related to the re-assignment of buttons in the "Rotary Switch" mode. Not sure if I mentioned this, but I am implementing the re-mapping of buttons for this mode as was suggested. Since the first 8 buttons are now dedicated solely to switching (in "Rotary Switch" mode only), buttons 9 through 23 will become 1 through 15.
I will announce when it's ready...hopefully later today.
RandyT
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but we also have the ability to set mode in software, right? (so why even worry about rotary anymore?)
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but we also have the ability to set mode in software, right? (so why even worry about rotary anymore?)
Yes, but I am only supporting software switching through Windows (at least at the moment.) USB can be used on a number of operating systems.
Also, believe it or not, some may want to switch manually if their applications show it to be easier to do it outsde of software. Believe me, my job would have been MUCH easier if I dropped that mode, but I made promises and I keep them where I can :)
RandyT
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Randy said he'd look at that in a future version and I'm good with that. For people who haven't already bought the product
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Have you guys ever seen this before?
It's supposed to be a 49 way with rotary.
(http://images.andale.com/f2/130/111/11335644/1111582202335_1113612643606_april_2_week_012.jpg)
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intruder, where did you see that joystick at?
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Randy said he'd look at that in a future version and I'm good with that. For people who haven't already bought the product to come along and say that they wouldn't do it because the parallel port is dying...blah blah blah is rediculous. He should support all versions of the product with the same type of features if it's possible and non-cost prohibitive. In this one particular case it should be. The materials are cheap to get and the programming source is available free. It does cost some of his time though to add a feature to a program he is already writing.
Is that such an unreasonable request?
No, it isn't unreasonable. I was just expressing my opinion that it isn't a smart decision. It may be cheap but what's it worth when it can't be used.
The last three new computers I have seen do NOT have parallel port. They have serial but not parallel port. Those computers were my new one (an athlon 64), my new work computer (a Dell pentium 4), and a friends new Duron 1.8Ghz.
Has PCs get cheaper, especially those Duron 1.8Ghz that can be less than $200, you are going to see less and less parallel ports in arcade cabients.
Why should Randy stick with the past when the future is so obvious? Why not think ahead? Look at how many parallel port devices are being created today.... why even think about it then. The hardware is being phased out. It's no different then these arcade hardware manufacturers (Randy, Andy, etc..) not supporting DOS. You just don't see it today so why take a step backwards to support a technology that is being phased out, which usually means some limitations have to be done so it will work the same in the future when a change has to be made.
You know, basically, I don't disagree with you. The only reason I do think Randy should add it to this particular app is because he put the product out there and people purchased it knowing that this was one of the only options for computer based switching. Early on, Randy said that someone would make a circuit or figure out how to accomplish switching of the modes via the computer. He was right, I didn't do anything unique and was probably not even the first to do it with the GP-Wiz49. He's now in a redesign of the firmware to make USB the "Supported" switching method (besides using the buttons or a rotary switch). If the parallel support were actually difficult I could see not adding it but with a freely available DLL that works on all Windows versions from 9X to XP, it should be fairly simple to add.
Now it may be my fault that I didn't wait months after it was released to buy, but if I and others who bought all waited, Randy probably wouldn't be adding the USB switching support now or may not even continue the product. Why carry it if it won't sell? I think from the very moment the product was announced, many people saw the opportunity and the possibilities that mode switching could be accomplished using the computer based on the information from your controls.ini project. Personally, I think once his USB switchable version of the GP-Wiz49 is available and shipping, he will see a pretty good increase in sales and you will see an increase in participation for adding new games to controls.ini.
I'm not asking him to support the past technology for the sake of using older technology but to support those people, like myself, who bought his product early on. He is already writing the app and adding "Unofficial" support for the parallel port mode goes a long way to proving that the decision they made was a good one because, like all of his products, he does his best to support them well.
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intruder, where did you see that joystick at?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=13718&item=6170164386&rd=1
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Have you guys ever seen this before?
It's supposed to be a 49 way with rotary.
(http://images.andale.com/f2/130/111/11335644/1111582202335_1113612643606_april_2_week_012.jpg)
That's just a Wico mechanical rotary. No 49-way action. Auction mislabeled.
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Have you guys ever seen this before?
It's supposed to be a 49 way with rotary.
(http://images.andale.com/f2/130/111/11335644/1111582202335_1113612643606_april_2_week_012.jpg)
A 49 way with leaf switches? it looks a lot like the joystick on this Heavy Barrel.
(http://i21.ebayimg.com/01/i/03/d4/f6/52_1_b.JPG)
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It would be so cool if it was true...
Oh well.. I just bought 4 used 49 ways so I guess me and Randy will be doing business soon
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Ok....
It's live now folks. The new firmware is ready and it works as expected. The new GPWiz-49 version is shown at the store and ready to be ordered. Sorry it took so long.
There are now three modes of operation:
Software Mode - Manual and command line operation - Button combo switching is locked out when in this mode. Switching is accomplished via the USB connection and Windows compatible software. Automatically detects and programs up to four GP-Wiz49 interface boards. Has the ability to select Williams or Happ modes "on the fly" as well.
Rotary Switch/Jumper mode - Modes can be selected via a rotary switch. Modes can also be permanantly jumpered if desired. This mode disables the shifted buttons, uses the first 8 inputs exclusively for switching, and normalizes the number of the remaining 15 buttons to 1 through 15 as expected.
Classic Mode - The original manual switching method. Holding the Joymode button (also used for shift) and pressing any of the 8 dual-purpose buttons changes the joystick mode.
Hopefully I didn't forget anything that was requested (at least the stuff that was reasonable to add)
The software is done except for the command line parsing. No surprises there, just a little elbow grease required. It'll be ready by time the boards arrive in your mailboxes. :)
Thanks again for your patience.
RandyT
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Should I buy ECO or MAX?
What's the difference?
Just the mounts?
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Randy.... What should we do if we already got the first version (MAX) and we want to get the new firmware? Do you have a plan of attack for us yet? Thank you and I will sit down and wait for my answer. ;D
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Randy.... What should we do if we already got the first version (MAX) and we want to get the new firmware? Do you have a plan of attack for us yet? Thank you and I will sit down and wait for my answer. ;D
Individuals that want the new version will need to email me. I'll deal with this on an individual basis, but users that purchased in the month of April will be updated at no charge if they contact me with the desire to do so.
There will be a reasonable charge for others, with the exception of solder Eco's. Unfortunately, there is no update path for these.
RandyT
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so for this reason should i buy the MAX?
or do you forsee any additional changes that would render the ECO obsolete?
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so for this reason should i buy the MAX?
or do you forsee any additional changes that would render the ECO obsolete?
At this point, it's pretty unlikely.
RandyT
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so for this reason should i buy the MAX?
or do you forsee any additional changes that would render the ECO obsolete?
You want the MAX because the screw terminals are WAY less work, in my opinion. True, it's $14 more than the solder version, and $11 more than the IDE header version, but how much is your time worth? How much time will you spend soldering, or hacking a cable? Those screw terminals are EASY. And when you want to un-hook it and re-wire it later on, they'll be EASY AGAIN.
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Hello, I'm a noob here to the forum, however, I have been lurking this site and several other emu sites for years (shy type). I've been playing MAME since v.36. I did dabble with bezel creation when Aaron first introduced the new Artwork format and a few of the Williams and Atari bezels on the mame.net site are still mine (not very good though as I was teaching myself Photoshop). Anyway, onto my questions. This new product is the motivation I need to build a cabinet (finally!)
1. I don't understand how 49 Raw is viewed by the computer. Is it as a low resolution analogue controller or are all 49 positions being discretely reported some how?
2. Crazy question here but, has anyone actually tried to play Atari Star Wars with a 49-way stick in 49 Raw DRS mode and how playable is it?
3. On RandyT's site, he lists the Midway version of the 49 way stick for sale. Can someone describe all of the differences between the Midway and the Happ sticks?
4. Randy, any chance that you could make a single board that would support two 49 way sticks?
5. I am interested in hacking in a fire button into the handle of a 49 way but don't really want the bulk of the Tron stick that 1UP is creating (even though that looks pretty cool!) I think that the Happ top fire joystick design is awkward at best. I am envisioning a microswitch built into the handle so I only have to thread wires down a hollow shaft. Any ideas on how to go about this?
Thanks,
Specfire
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I am only going to get into one part here.
I have played Star Wars with a 49 way, it sucks, it sucks really bad.
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<edit> Modified the Midway/Happ part.
1. I don't understand how 49 Raw is viewed by the computer. Is it as a low resolution analogue controller or are all 49 positions being discretely reported some how?
I might be wrong here, but I don't think MAME supports the 49-way sticks directly. 49-Raw is a low-res Analog controller, but it is what you would use for the true 49-way games (Sinistar, Arch Rivals, etc.) (Did I screw this up, Randy?)
3. On RandyT's site, he lists the Midway version of the 49 way stick for sale. Can someone describe all of the differences between the Midway and the Happ sticks?
Midway=Happ Happ sells Midway's design under license. RandyT is usually a little cheaper, but Happ has them on sale this month. RandyT is actually selling the Happ version AFAIK, might want to fix the webstore, Randy. The Midway and Happ function the same, but have slightly different dimensions.
Midway/Happ <> Williams - The Williams stick had a centering spider to add extra resistance in Sinistar (1Up is making a Happ repro). Also, basically I think the Williams read the center position as 0 and the Happ read it as 1, so the interface has to work differently (The GP-Wiz49 supports either one). Finally, I think the Happ has a slightly "tighter" feel, without having a better way to explain it.
4. Randy, any chance that you could make a single board that would support two 49 way sticks?
Doubtful - Was asked earlier in the thread.
5. I am envisioning a microswitch built into the handle so I only have to thread wires down a hollow shaft. Any ideas on how to go about this?
Something like this, maybe? http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,22827.0.html (Not sure if they work with the 49-way, and RayB sold out of them, but I think he documents what he did, or you might PM him about them.
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I want to add some things to clarify, but please correct me if I get it wrong.
It's live now folks. The new firmware is ready and it works as expected. The new GPWiz-49 version is shown at the store and ready to be ordered. Sorry it took so long.
Linky here (http://www.groovygamegear.com/cgi/surfshop/shop.cgi?ud=NlZaSFc3VlI1QiUlJSUlJTExMTM0NzU2NjcA&storeid=1&c=search.htm&categories=0041)
Software Mode - Manual and command line operation - Button combo switching is locked out when in this mode. Switching is accomplished via the USB connection and Windows compatible software. Automatically detects and programs up to four GP-Wiz49 interface boards. Has the ability to select Williams or Happ modes "on the fly" as well.
ASSuME manual means through the GUI.
From the description, it looks like you still get all the buttons with software switching. Is this correct? I was expecting it to drop to 15. Great job Randy, either way!
Classic Mode - The original manual switching method. Holding the Joymode button (also used for shift) and pressing any of the 8 dual-purpose buttons changes the joystick mode.
ASSuME classic mode means Toonces software works with the new boards as well.
ASSuME you are still working on supporting the PP through the new software?
Hopefully I didn't forget anything that was requested (at least the stuff that was reasonable to add)
Looks like you got about all of it (except two sticks on the same board :police: ) (j/k) Great job, Randy!
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Oh, btw Randy, the reason I've never ordered from you in the past is your refusal
to ship to a different address than the credit card statement.
To order the boards from you I'm going to use the company credit card so they will be sent to my office.
I really don't want products shipped to my house, (Where no one is at till after 7pm every night)
Any chance of you ever changing this policy?
Later,
dabone
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Oh, btw Randy, the reason I've never ordered from you in the past is your refusal
to ship to a different address than the credit card statement.
To order the boards from you I'm going to use the company credit card so they will be sent to my office.
I really don't want products shipped to my house, (Where no one is at till after 7pm every night)
Any chance of you ever changing this policy?
Later,
dabone
Lots of companies do this - www.newegg.com has a similar policy to prevent fraud. What RandyT might consider, and it might work for you - NewEgg used to have a policy that you could request that the item be held at the FedEx office and then you would go pick it up there. (Was easier for me than having the FedEx guy stop by when I wasn't home, then be re-delivering it when I tried to pick it up there, etc.)
But I'm not sure if Randy uses FedEx, or if his shipper supports this.
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Oh, btw Randy, the reason I've never ordered from you in the past is your refusal
to ship to a different address than the credit card statement.
To order the boards from you I'm going to use the company credit card so they will be sent to my office.
Just call your credit card company and have them add your work address as a legitimate delivery address.
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It's a debit card on my bank account, and they only allow the 1 address.
(Sucks but thats the way it is.)
And newegg doesn't have that policy, I've ordered from them multiple times and had it shipped to my office.
Later,
dabone
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Randy.... What should we do if we already got the first version (MAX) and we want to get the new firmware? Do you have a plan of attack for us yet? Thank you and I will sit down and wait for my answer. ;D
Individuals that want the new version will need to email me. I'll deal with this on an individual basis, but users that purchased in the month of April will be updated at no charge if they contact me with the desire to do so.
There will be a reasonable charge for others, with the exception of solder Eco's. Unfortunately, there is no update path for these.
RandyT
Well hell. I JUST got my two Ecos not all that long ago, because I can handle the wiring and figured I'd save a few bucks instead of getting screw terminals.
When you say there's no update path for the Ecos, is that just because the chip is soldered instead of socketed? Is the upgrade path for the Max simply to get a new chip and replace the one on the board? Can I just get the upgrade and a pair of 40-pin chip sockets and fix my Ecos like that, or is there something more different about the Max vs. the Eco?
If only they had flashable firmware...
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If your really worried about it. You can probably sell them for just a bit below what the new ones will sell for.
Sure the new features are REALLY cool. But there will be some people who want to save a few bucks... and don't need it to change at runtime...
But one of the disadvantages of soldered boards. Never an easy upgrade path. :(
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Randy.... What should we do if we already got the first version (MAX) and we want to get the new firmware? Do you have a plan of attack for us yet? Thank you and I will sit down and wait for my answer. ;D
Individuals that want the new version will need to email me. I'll deal with this on an individual basis, but users that purchased in the month of April will be updated at no charge if they contact me with the desire to do so.
There will be a reasonable charge for others, with the exception of solder Eco's. Unfortunately, there is no update path for these.
RandyT
Well hell. I JUST got my two Ecos not all that long ago, because I can handle the wiring and figured I'd save a few bucks instead of getting screw terminals.
When you say there's no update path for the Ecos, is that just because the chip is soldered instead of socketed? Is the upgrade path for the Max simply to get a new chip and replace the one on the board? Can I just get the upgrade and a pair of 40-pin chip sockets and fix my Ecos like that, or is there something more different about the Max vs. the Eco?
If only they had flashable firmware...
I recommend you contact RandyT directly. I am ASSuMEing that there is no upgrade path for the solder ECO's b/c Randy doesn't want to risk that you messed up the board when you soldered it, and now it won't work when he upgrades it. I would imagine if you felt up to buying (or receiving?) the replacement chip and de-soldering the existing one and soldering the replacement, that could be worked out, but I can't speak for him (well, I shouldn't, at least).
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I am only going to get into one part here.
I have played Star Wars with a 49 way, it sucks, it sucks really bad.
tell us more..
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I am only going to get into one part here.
I have played Star Wars with a 49 way, it sucks, it sucks really bad.
tell us more..
Understandable, it'd be like playing a first person shooter witha mouse that skips every 30 pixels. In a game that needs fine tune adjustments it isn't going to work well. But it makes it more playable than on an 8way.
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So what other games are going to play badly with a 49way?
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Get a list of analog joystick games that require precise movement.
That's a "well duh" situation. However, it does make them more playable than just using an 8way joystick.
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Oh, btw Randy, the reason I've never ordered from you in the past is your refusal
to ship to a different address than the credit card statement.
To order the boards from you I'm going to use the company credit card so they will be sent to my office.
I really don't want products shipped to my house, (Where no one is at till after 7pm every night)
Any chance of you ever changing this policy?
Later,
dabone
This policy is done by MOST companies and if you think about it.... its really a GOOD thing. That way if some asshat gets ahold of your credit card info he can't just order 10 plasma TV's and have it shipped to his house.
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This policy is done by MOST companies and if you think about it.... its really a GOOD thing.
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Get a list of analog joystick games that require precise movement.
That's a "well duh" situation. However, it does make them more playable than just using an 8way joystick.
I tried http://link.mywwwserver.com/~jstookey/arcade/sortinfo/index.php
but there's no option for analog that I could see :(
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try stick.
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Ace Driver (Rev. AD2, World) (acedrvrw)
Ace Driver: Victory Lap (Rev. ADV2, World) (victlapw)
After Burner (Japan) (aburner)
Air Combat (Japan) (aircombj)
Air Combat 22 (Rev. ACS1 Ver.B) (airco22b)
Air Inferno (US) (ainferno)
Air Rescue (arescue)
Alley Master (alleymas)
Alpine Racer (Rev. AR2 Ver.C) (alpinerc)
Baseball The Season II (basebal2)
Battle Shark (Japan) (bsharkj)
Big Run (11th Rallye version) (bigrun)
Blaster (blaster)
Blomby Car (blmbycar)
Bradley Trainer (bradley)
Cassette: Astro Fantasia (castfant)
Cassette: Boulder Dash (cbdash)
Cassette: Bump N Jump (cbnj)
Cassette: Burger Time (cbtime)
Cassette: Disco No.1 (cdiscon1)
Cassette: Explorer (cexplore)
Cassette: Fighting Ice Hockey (cfghtice)
Cassette: Flying Ball? (cflyball)
Cassette: Graplop (aka Cluster Buster) (set 1) (cgraplop)
Cassette: Highway Chase? (chwy)
Cassette: Lock'n'Chase (clocknch)
Cassette: Lucky Poker (cluckypo)
Cassette: Mission-X (cmissnx)
Cassette: Night Star (set 1) (cnightst)
Cassette: Peter Pepper's Ice Cream Factory (set 1) (cppicf)
Cassette: Pro Bowling (cprobowl)
Cassette: Pro Golf (cprogolf)
Cassette: Pro Soccer (cprosocc)
Cassette: Pro Tennis (cptennis)
Cassette: Rootin' Tootin' (clapapa2)
Cassette: Scrum Try (set 1) (cscrtry)
Cassette: Super Astro Fighter (csuperas)
Cassette: Terranean (cterrani)
Cassette: Test Tape (ctsttape)
Cassette: Tornado (ctornado)
Cassette: Treasure Island (set 1) (ctisland)
Cassette: Zeroize? (czeroize)
Champion Golf (crgolfc)
Change Lanes (changela)
Chequered Flag (chqflag)
Cisco Heat (cischeat)
Clay Shoot (clayshoo)
Cyber Cycles (Rev. CB2 Ver.C) (cybrcycc)
Cyber Sled (cybsled)
Dead Eye (deadeye)
Dog Patch (dogpatch)
Escape from the Planet of the Robot Monsters (set 1) (eprom)
F-1 Grand Prix Star II (f1gpstr2)
F1 Exhaust Note (f1en)
F1 Super Battle (f1superb)
F1 Super Lap (f1lap)
Flyball (flyball)
Food Fight (cocktail) (foodfc)
Golfing Greats 2 (ver JAC) (ggreats2)
Grand Prix Star (f1gpstar)
Great 1000 Miles Rally (gtmr)
Ground Effects / Super Ground Effects (Japan) (groundfx)
Gypsy Juggler (gypsyjug)
Hang-On (hangon)
Hang-On Jr. (hangonjr)
Hot Chase (hotchase)
Hydra (hydra)
I, Robot (irobot)
Line of Fire (loffire)
Metal Hawk (Japan) (metlhawk)
Moto Frenzy (motofren)
Night Striker (US) (nightstr)
Out Run (Deluxe?) (outrundx)
Outrunners (US) (orunners)
Paperboy (rev 1) (paperbr1)
Poolshark (poolshrk)
Quarterback (quarterb)
Racin' Force (ver UAB) (racinfrc)
Rad Mobile (radm)
Rad Rally (radr)
Rave Racer (Rev. RV2, World) (raveracw)
Red Baron (redbaron)
Return of the Jedi (jedi)
Ridge Racer (Rev. RR1, Japan) (ridgeraj)
Ridge Racer 2 (Rev. RRS1, Japan) (ridger2j)
Road Riot 4WD (roadriot)
Road Runner (rev 1) (roadrun1)
S.T.U.N. Runner (rev 0) (stunrun0)
Shrike Avenger (prototype) (shrike)
Sinistar (prototype version) (sinista1)
Sky Raider (skyraid)
Solvalou (Japan) (solvalou)
Space Encounters (spcenctr)
Space Harrier (sharrier)
Space Lords (spclords)
Stadium Cross (World) (scross)
Star Fire (set 1) (starfire)
Star Wars (rev 1) (starwar1)
Star Wars Arcade (swa)
Starblade (starblad)
Starship 1 (starshp1)
Steel Talons (German, rev 2) (steeltag)
Street Football (sfootbal)
Strike Zone Baseball (strkzone)
Super Baseball Double Play Home Run Derby (dblplay)
Super Hang-On (shangon)
Suzuka 8 Hours (Japan) (suzuk8hj)
Suzuka 8 Hours 2 (Japan) (suzuk8h2)
T-MEK (tmek)
Tailgunner (tailg)
The Empire Strikes Back (esb)
Thunder Blade (thndrbld)
Thunder Ceptor (tceptor)
Top Landing (World) (topland)
Tunnel Hunt (tunhunt)
Turbo Outrun (set 1) (toutrun)
Vapor TRX (vaportrx)
WEC Le Mans 24 (wecleman)
Wing War (wingwar)
Winning Run 91 (winrun91)
World Grand Prix (Japan) (wgpj)
World Series: The Season (wseries)
Total: 122
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RE: Shipping addresses
Here's MY policy (it's different from the store's)
If you are a "good guy" member of BYOAC, you get exceptions made for you.
That's it, no more complicated than that. Tell me who you are in an Email, and I'll send it to your Grandma's house if that's where you want it to go.
Easy huh :) ?
RandyT
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Ordered them with the boss's cc today.
Got 2 of the max's today.
But I'll remember that for the next order.
Later,
dabone
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Randy,
Is your software controllable by the 49-ways themselves? I may have just missed this in the thread.. Until there's more FE support, would be cool if (like in MAMEWAH) you could launch CPViewer to see the controls needed, then launch your app to select the appropriate joy. Not automatic, but easy :)
*grumble, grumble* Now I have to buy more controls and encoders *grumble, grumble*
:)
Thnx :)
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Is your software controllable by the 49-ways themselves? I may have just missed this in the thread.. Until there's more FE support, would be cool if (like in MAMEWAH) you could launch CPViewer to see the controls needed, then launch your app to select the appropriate joy. Not automatic, but easy :)
If I understand the question correctly, then no. The software is mouse/trackball driven for manual use.
I will try to take a look at what would be involved to make the stick control it, but that's not the easiest in the language it was written in.
RandyT
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This policy is done by MOST companies and if you think about it.... its really a GOOD thing.
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Folks who bought the solder-version of the Eco:
If you have to have the new version, like somebody said, sell 'em!
But, shucks, you bought it knowing you had to push two buttons to switch modes. Nothing's really changed!
If it was a PC, why upgrade to a 3.2 ghz machine when you just bought a 3.0 ghz machine? Do you really need the extra 0.2 ghz?
I've got the old firmware in my Max, and I may not bother to upgrade, as I just don't need software switching.
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Folks who bought the solder-version of the Eco:
If you have to have the new version, like somebody said, sell 'em!
Don't mind if I do! http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,35337.0.html
For me, since I'm going to go with 4 I'd rather mess with the software switching than wiring up 4 different rotary switches on the 3 sides of my cocktail.
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Folks who bought the solder-version of the Eco:
If you have to have the new version, like somebody said, sell 'em!
Don't mind if I do! http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,35337.0.html
For me, since I'm going to go with 4 I'd rather mess with the software switching than wiring up 4 different rotary switches on the 3 sides of my cocktail.
Troz,
If you are going to buy 4 of the new version, send this one back to me and I will credit you one.
Ok?
RandyT
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Troz,
If you are going to buy 4 of the new version, send this one back to me and I will credit you one.
Ok?
RandyT
Sounds like a great plan, thanks. I'll be emailing you shortly...
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<edit>modified to reflect correct software commands</edit>
Randy,
Is your software controllable by the 49-ways themselves? I may have just missed this in the thread.. Until there's more FE support, would be cool if (like in MAMEWAH) you could launch CPViewer to see the controls needed, then launch your app to select the appropriate joy. Not automatic, but easy :)
*grumble, grumble* Now I have to buy more controls and encoders *grumble, grumble*
:)
Thnx :)
If I read your question corectly, then maybe in at least five different ways -
If I understand what RandyT is doing and MameWah (which I don't use) -
Let's use PacMan as an example and assume that RandyT's software has a command-line mode with a command of
"GPWiz49.exe 4" to select 4-way mode.
Two ways to do it in software switching:
Method one - Create a batch file named pacman.bat with the following commmands:
C:\GPWIZ49\GPWiz49.exe 4
C:\MAME\mame.exe pacman
C:\GPWIZ49\GPWiz49.exe 3
Save this and modify MameWah to launch pacman.bat when you click on pacman in the gameslist. No need for CPViewer or frontend support with this method, but a pain to write 5,000 batch files.
Method two - Create a desktop shortcut named "4-Way Mode" with a target line of "C:\GPWIZ49\GPWiz49.exe 4"
Launch MameWah and CpViewer - Minimize to the desktop - click "4-way Mode" Icon, Restore Mamewah. Start Pacman.
One way using a rotary switch - Wire and label a rotary switch for each Mode. Launch Mamewah and CpViewer. Rotate Rotary Switch to 4-way position, launch PacMan.
Two methods using classic mode (Method two may not work - UPDATE - Will not work now that I think about how 49-ways are connected).
Method one - Let's assume that P1B3 with the Mode key selects 4-way mode (it might be a different button).
Launch MameWah and CPViewer. Press the Mode Button, and P1B3. Launch PacMan.
Method two - Assuming you literally meant using the sticks to select modes - limits you to 4 modes, say Raw 49, 8-way, 4-way, 2wayV. Let's again assume P1B3 selects 4-way mode. P1B1 selects Raw 49, P1B2 selects 8way, P1B4 selects 2wayV.
Wire your joystick so that UP activates P1B1, Left activates P1B2, Right activates P1B3, Down activates P1B4 (again no way to do this, I think I was thinking of the normal GPWiz at the time).
Launch Mamewah and CP Viewer - Hold the Mode button and move the joystick to the Right. Launch PacMan.
Sounded good if it would work. :P
Alternate idea - I'm not sure if the above was what you were asking or if you meant "Can I modify the graphic that CP Viewer generates so that when it says PacMan is a 4-way game, it also tells me to press the Mode button and P1B3 to select the mode?" This answer is "Yes, I'm sure you could, but I don't use CP Viewer enough to tell you how to."
Again, thanks to Randy for making such a versatile product (as usual).
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Since I've got MAMEWAH as my shell, I can't minimize to desktop :( Was looking for a way to do everything through the frontend without the frontend having to specifically support it.
And yeah, 5000 bat files would suck :)
I guess I could write my own program to look up the game in controls.ini and do it for me, but I mostly know Perl, Actionscript (if you can call it a language), and java... Maybe will have to write a java app.. hrmm...
Thanx, though.
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This is pretty off topic, but FYI...
MAMEWAH supports a "run external app automatically before launching the emulator" feature. MAMEWAH can also pass the same input info that's available in -listxml to this external app (for example, "joy8way", "joy4way", etc).
If there were an app that could program this encoder on the fly that would accept some paramter like (to use TH's example):
C:\GPWIZ49\GPWiz49_Uploader.exe -input joy4way
That would fit in perfectly with MAMEWAH.
-sab
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Minwah (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=profile;u=501) or Dave Butler (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=profile;u=2977) can fix this
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Since I've got MAMEWAH as my shell, I can't minimize to desktop :( Was looking for a way to do everything through the frontend without the frontend having to specifically support it.
And yeah, 5000 bat files would suck :)
I guess I could write my own program to look up the game in controls.ini and do it for me, but I mostly know Perl, Actionscript (if you can call it a language), and java... Maybe will have to write a java app.. hrmm...
Thanx, though.
I see what you mean. I use EmuLoader, and a desktop controller, and a Windows PC, so not familiar with MAMEWah (other than everyone raves about it).
I also can't speak for MinWah, but I can virtually guarantee that Mamewah will add support for this eventually.
What you maybe could do - See option 2 where I mention desktop shortcuts for the modes. Wouldn't there be a way to manually launch these from Mamewah (you could in EmuLoader)?
So for example, you either added a new "Emulator" called "Joystick Modes" with 8 "games" - 49way, 49wayP, 8way, 4way, etc - each game launching the shortcut to Randy's software.
So you launch CPViewer, change Emulators, launch 4Way, change Emulators, launch PacMan, etc. (Not pretty, but).
Alternately, - Again not familiar enough to know how it would work best - You create the "games" in the MAME list, maybe name them !49-Way, !4-Way, !8-Way, so they were always at the top of the list. Then you launch CP Viewer, page-up to the top of the list, (easier if MAMEwah has a one-button way to do this), scroll back down to Pac-Man (okay that might take a while, . . .)
Probably the best way to do this - Set up an 8-way emulator with only the !8-way shortcut and all the 8-way games, a 4-way emulator with only the 4-way games and the !4-way shortcut, etc. Select the "emulator", click the shortcut, play any of the games, etc. etc. This would likely take a long time to set-up, but could be expanded and would also be great for guys with swappable CP's b/c you could have "Emulator" lists with only the games that particular CP could play.
Sorry now, Randy, for essentially hi-jacking the thread.
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[
Sorry now, Randy, for essentially hi-jacking the thread.
Heh. No need to apologize. I appreciate the help. :)
I've been wrestling with this one myself, and the only way I can see for it to work is through the front-ends. They need to be able to call an executable with a command line based on information related to the game being launched, or just dump information related to a current game into a file that can be loaded and parsed by the switching software. The problem there is deciding on formats and terminology that would be standardized across FE designs, so keeping the switching as generic as possible would probably be for the best.
RandyT
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I've been wrestling with this one myself, and the only way I can see for it to work is through the front-ends. They need to be able to call an executable with a command line based on information related to the game being launched, or just dump information related to a current game into a file that can be loaded and parsed by the switching software. The problem there is deciding on formats and terminology that would be standardized across FE designs, so keeping the switching as generic as possible would probably be for the best.
Using information currently available from MAME is the most reasonable, isn't it? That would offer the easiest "upgrade path" for front ends to support running external applications natively without messing with batch files (like MAMEWAH already does).
Even using different terminology like "4way" vs. the existing MAME format of "joy4way" would mean that every front end (or anyone else that makes an external application to handle writing to the encode based on game info) would have to come up with some sort of translation.
I kind of see it as an all or nothing thing (maybe I'm wrong). If you don't go with the MAME-style, you might as well come up with your own format.. but that would potentially allow you to make it "better" by natively supporting controls.dat, for example.
-sab
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I also can't speak for MinWah, but I can virtually guarantee that Mamewah will add support for this eventually.
Did you read my post? How is this different than what's already in MAMEWAH?
-sab
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I also can't speak for MinWah, but I can virtually guarantee that Mamewah will add support for this eventually.
Did you read my post? How is this different than what's already in MAMEWAH?
-sab
Actually, I was typing when you posted it, but I did read it. :police:
I was thinking more of an option like "Use GP-Wiz49 software = Checkbox" and then MAMEwah would automagically decide what command to issue and take care of the switching (after RandyT finalizes the software of course).
I also think the data should come from controls.dat where possible as MAME is flat wrong about 30% of the time (I don't have raw data to back up that stat).
I also think Toonces had this working with GamEx using the same command structure as you mention for MAMEwah, so I think the FE devs and FE users should review what he has done to get it working (replacing the Parallel Port calls with command-lines to the GP-Wiz software).
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Minwah (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=profile;u=501) or Dave Butler (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=profile;u=2977) can fix this
...oops
sorry Mr. screaming
I didn't realise you were the "MAMEWAH config" dude
http://www.bluecamel.org/index.php?id=14
.. i think you should be able to fix it too ;D
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[
Sorry now, Randy, for essentially hi-jacking the thread.
Heh. No need to apologize. I appreciate the help. :)
I've been wrestling with this one myself, and the only way I can see for it to work is through the front-ends. They need to be able to call an executable with a command line based on information related to the game being launched, or just dump information related to a current game into a file that can be loaded and parsed by the switching software. The problem there is deciding on formats and terminology that would be standardized across FE designs, so keeping the switching as generic as possible would probably be for the best.
RandyT
The way the batch files and GameEx approaches this is by using the ability to run a program or batch file before and after each rom. Modes are passed to my batch file in a numerical format based on controls.ini. The numbers GameEx passes to my batch files are the same mode numbers Randy has already assigned:
1 = 49 Way
2 = 49 Way Progressive
3 = 8 Way
4 = 4 Way
5 = 4 Way Diagonal
6 = 2 Way Horizontal
7 = 2 Way Vertical
8 = 16 Way
So just pass the mode number to the app and it switches. This is easy for the FE and Randy's app. By using the mode numbers Randy's app doesn't have conform to the MAME terminology.
There's a reason controls.ini exists. The information in MAME is wrong or not descriptive enough for quite a few of the games. In MAME there is no differentiation between a 4 way joystick and a diagonal 4 way (Q*Bert, Congo Bongo), there's also no differentiation of 2 way controls either (Vertical vs. Horizontal) all are just joy2way (Defender, Space Invaders, etc). There are many 4 way games that have joy8way as the controller.
The only thing the FE has to do (or an external app if you want MameWah to support it right now) is parse Controls.ini and pass back 1-8 to Randy's app and the mode is switched. If a game is not in Controls.ini, add it and contribute it to the project! Of course, you could also fall back to MAME's control info but if the game is a 2 way H or V, you're not going to know which one. For GameEx, I use a default of 8 way if it's not in Controls.ini. GameEx also uses the list of all of the controller names from controls.ini as a seperate file to get it's mapping info so the end user can change the selected mode for a given controller type.
Certainly not the only way to do it but it definately works.
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Intruder did you ever get an answer on Donkey Kong?
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Thanx for all the info! A lot to digest.. Unfortunately, this is all theoretical until I get my controls :) But I love the way it's all heading!
Sorry for hijacking the thread...
Did somebody ask about Donkey Kong? :)
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Did somebody ask about Donkey Kong? :)
He heee! Intruder Alert asked about three times in a different thread how the 49-ways with Randy's interface played in Donkey Kong.
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Did somebody ask about Donkey Kong? :)
He heee! Intruder Alert asked about three times in a different thread how the 49-ways with Randy's interface played in Donkey Kong.
..yah .. and i'm still waiting >:(
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,35227.msg308358.html#msg308358
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BTW, why not just have different directories for 4 way games and a batch file like this
mame4way.bat
@config49 4way
@mame %1 %2 %3 %4 %5
@config49 8way
I don't know about mamewah but then you add an emulator mame4way and a mame8way and a mame49way (ext). Each one would only know about the specific rom directory.
anyway, just a thought.
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Did somebody ask about Donkey Kong? :)
He heee! Intruder Alert asked about three times in a different thread how the 49-ways with Randy's interface played in Donkey Kong.
..yah .. and i'm still waiting >:(
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,35227.msg308358.html#msg308358
There, I answered :)
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BTW, why not just have different directories for 4 way games and a batch file like this
mame4way.bat
@config49 4way
@mame %1 %2 %3 %4 %5
@config49 8way
I don't know about mamewah but then you add an emulator mame4way and a mame8way and a mame49way (ext). Each one would only know about the specific rom directory.
anyway, just a thought.
That would require you to go through and individually manage your sets to put them in the correct directory. The info in Controls.ini is perfect for making the decision on which mode to use. As a backup, the output from MAME is ok until you hit 2 way or 4 way diagonal controls. Not to mention games where it's just wrong. So far, I have found using controls.ini with 8 way as a backup if it's not in there to be pretty darn good.
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I'm going to have to buy 4 of these babys!
The $15 premium for the MAX version is going to end up costing me $60.. ouch
How hard is it so rig up a cable for the ECO?
Should I just bite the bullet and go with 4 MAXs?
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I'm going to have to buy 4 of these babys!
The $15 premium for the MAX version is going to end up costing me $60.. ouch
How hard is it so rig up a cable for the ECO?
Should I just bite the bullet and go with 4 MAXs?
How comfortable are you with soldering and or crimping? I used the solder version and 12 pin .100 connectors to make the cables. Pretty easy to do and it came out very nice. You can also go the solderless version and use a floppy cable per Randy's diagrams but for me that is actually more difficult. Mainly because I always miscount the damn things :) The 12 pin connectors fit perfectly and it's easy to follow the wiring when you're doing it one wire at a time.
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Well.. I don't mind soldering but I kind of like the idea of having a quick disconnect cable too
If that's the only difference I guess I'll go with the ECOs
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Well.. I don't mind soldering but I kind of like the idea of having a quick disconnect cable too
If that's the only difference I guess I'll go with the ECOs
I think it's probably safe to do so. I can't imagine that Randy is going to be updating the firmware anymore :)
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Anyone who wants to check out the software, please go to this (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,35511.0.html) thread.
You can download a copy and play with it even if you don't have a GP-Wiz49. There is documentation incuded that may be of value to front-end writers if they are interested in supporting it.
Please direct any software questions to that thread as well.....this one is too deep.... :)
Thanks,
RandyT
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Have you guys ever seen this before?
It's supposed to be a 49 way with rotary.
(http://images.andale.com/f2/130/111/11335644/1111582202335_1113612643606_april_2_week_012.jpg)
I've been working on an adapter to mate the midway 49-way with the rotary switches used in Happ's rotary joys.
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Have you guys ever seen this before?
It's supposed to be a 49 way with rotary.
(http://images.andale.com/f2/130/111/11335644/1111582202335_1113612643606_april_2_week_012.jpg)
I've been working on an adapter to mate the midway 49-way with the rotary switches used in Happ's rotary joys.
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Cool! I'm very interested in the rotary 49-way. You should place this in a separate thread so that it doesn't get buried under 15 pages of other stuff...
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A rotary 49 way? I'm well on my way to narrowing everything down to one pannel!
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I've been working on an adapter to mate the midway 49-way with the rotary switches used in Happ's rotary joys. I have a working prototype but before I proceed with having them produced in mass, I'd like to see if others have any interest.
Please reply to this if you'd like an adapter that could mate the shaft of your midway 49-way joy to a 12 position rotary switch.
You can see in the picture that the adapter replaces the usually e-clipped adapter on the shaft of the midway joystick.
12 position?
is that like the SNK stick?
Someone told me that the WICO stick that I was asking about is actually 49 position rotary
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Cool!
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12 position?
is that like the SNK stick?
Someone told me that the WICO stick that I was asking about is actually 49 position rotary
IA - Your WICO stick is an 8-way 12-position rotary - 8 stick positions and 12 rotation positions. Fl0yd is making an adapter to add the rotary portion of your stick to the Happ/Atari 49-way sticks that work with the GP-Wiz49 interface.
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Yahooo!!!
I got my 4 GP-Wiz49s yesterday!!!
I was reading the instruction sheet this morning..
I thought this thing was just for the joystick ONLY
I completely missed this before:
- 23 additional inputs, including 5 that are "shiftable", for conventional Joysticks, buttons or similar switch based devices. (in Manual and Software Modes. Rotary Switch/Jumper mode disables "Shift-mode" buttons and provides 15 usable buttons)
So with these 4 units I could have 92 buttons on my CP :o
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- 23 additional inputs, including 5 that are "shiftable", for conventional Joysticks, buttons or similar switch based devices. (in Manual and Software Modes. Rotary Switch/Jumper mode disables "Shift-mode" buttons and provides 15 usable buttons)
So with these 4 units I could have 92 buttons on my CP :o
Actually 108 if you use something like RandyT's one-click Shazaaam! adapters. (But I think that's a bit of overkill).
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The funny part is when you go into the game controller screen in windows to test it there are 23 buttons there. hehe
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So who's got the current record for CP buttons?
I'd love to see a CP with 100+ buttons lol
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Anyone for a 4-player mahjong panel? ;D
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I finally hooked up one of my interfaces today to play with.
Found 1 more bug in the software.
I have a 1 & 2 adapters, and I hooked up the #2 device.
Software would load up then crash.
After I connected the first board the software ran fine afterwards.
Later,
dabone
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I finally hooked up one of my interfaces today to play with.
Found 1 more bug in the software.
I have a 1 & 2 adapters, and I hooked up the #2 device.
Software would load up then crash.
After I connected the first board the software ran fine afterwards.
Later,
dabone
You need the latest version of the software. See the end of this thread.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,35511.40.html
And if you still have problems, post in that thread . . .
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For configuration I considered creating a control panel with a full keyboard of arcade buttons... But when I started realizing how much it would cost, and how useful it would be... the urge pasted.
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... the urge pasted.
???
I don't want any more buttons than necessary.
If I have the software automatically choose the correct mode for each game then I won't really need the 4 JoyMode buttons will I?
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... the urge pasted.
???
He means passed.
I don't want any more buttons than necessary.
If I have the software automatically choose the correct mode for each game then I won't really need the 4 JoyMode buttons will I?
Ummn, if you have the software chose the correct mode for each game, you won't need any buttons, but some games will be hard to play.
Okay, I thought you meant 4 JoyMode buttons per interface, but I figured it out. No, you won't need them.
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you won't need any buttons, but some games will be hard to play.
lol
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What's the report on the following games...
Q-bert, Congo Bongo (other diagonal games)
Zaxxon
Crazy Climber, Robotron (other dual 8-way games)
Tail Gunner
720 degrees
Sinistar
Gyruss
Especially curious about Gyruss, Qbert, and Tail Gunner.
Darryl
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All games take a little getting used to. Even though the total throw of the joystick is long, you only have to move it a little to make the Sprite move.
Dual joystick games like Robotron & Crazy Climber work great (8-way mode).
Q-bert works well in Diagonals (must map in MAME, but easy).
You didn't ask, but in Donkey Kong I find it hard to make Mario stop. If he's moving right and you let go of the stick, he keeps going. 1up mentioned something similar and theorized that this was due to the joystick grommet not being broken in. Same type of effect in 1944 Loopmaster (plane keeps moving around).
Pacman works GREAT in 4-way mode. Absolutely wonderful.
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Q-bert works well in Diagonals (must map in MAME, but easy).
I thought I read earlier that Q-bert should NOT be mapped in MAME and then you selected diagonal 4-way mode.
/me hangs head in shame and sentences self to 15-minutes in corner for posting inaccurate information on board.
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Q-bert works well in Diagonals (must map in MAME, but easy).
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How about Gyruss?
I found it played well enough with regular 8-ways. Is it improved with the 49 way?
Darryl
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Q-bert works well in Diagonals (must map in MAME, but easy).
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so wait...we still need to map input for the diagonal games even when the joystick is in diagonal mode? i thoguht the point of diagonal mode was to solve this problem...am i just lost?
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so wait...we still need to map input for the diagonal games even when the joystick is in diagonal mode? i thoguht the point of diagonal mode was to solve this problem...am i just lost?
Addressing MAME's (TM) odd way of describing controls for diagonal games was not the idea behind the diagonal mode . MAME sees controls for diagonal games as a regular 4-way, just mounted differently, apparently rotated 45degrees clockwise.
The GP-Wiz49 is not exclusively a MAME controller, so this was not the goal. If you consider what must be done on an 8-way stick to effect a diagonal, you will see that you would need to position the stick properly to close the 2 switches simultaneously, and do this at every move. With a Prodigy joystick in 8-way mode this works pretty well due to the squareish mechanical restriction. But if you try it with a non-restricted 8-way. you will quickly understand the benefits of the GP-Wiz49's diagonal mode.
You need to set up the game as you would for use with an 8-way. If you do this with the diagonal mode activated, it's very easy to do. But keep in mind that the set up is where the similarity ends.
RandyT
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You didn't ask, but in Donkey Kong I find it hard to make Mario stop. If he's moving right and you let go of the stick, he keeps going. 1up mentioned something similar and theorized that this was due to the joystick grommet not being broken in. Same type of effect in 1944 Loopmaster (plane keeps moving around).
When 1UP first mentioned this I thought he was loopy. The reason is that the first sticks I started experimenting with were original Midway sticks straight out of old arcade machines. They didn't show any of this type of behavior as they had been well broken in.
I have since verified this to be the case on the brand new sticks and could see them slowly crawl back to center after extending them in a direction.
The answer? Be rough on them :) They are built to take it, so torque them around for a while, or play a nice long game of Gyruss (and Darryl, the answer to your question is definitely, Yes). That will take care of the situation nicely ;)
RandyT
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How about Gyruss?
I found it played well enough with regular 8-ways. Is it improved with the 49 way?
Darryl
It ought to play well enough with regular 8-ways! That's what Gyrus originally came with in the arcades! (It'll also play great with a 49-way in either 49-way mode or in 8-way mode.)
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You didn't ask, but in Donkey Kong I find it hard to make Mario stop.
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Mame sees 49-ways connected through a GP49 as an analog joystick at all times, regardless of which mode the GP49 is in. So yes, deadzone could help with that.
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Not nessesarily. The stick may look like an analog to the OS (and thus to MAME), but that doesn't mean it will act like one. The four way mode, I imagine, only ever reports 4 different analog positions, so adjusting the deadzone in mame would do nothing. Any deadzone adjustment would have to be done in the firmware of the GPWiz49.
In other words, just beat the hell out of it until works. Thats how I always deal with technology problems anyway.
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Good point. I hereby retract my support of a deadzone fix.
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So when's MinWah coming back to see about this anyway?
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So when's MinWah coming back to see about this anyway?
MrSalty came up with something that works in the meantime here (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,35927.0.html)..
-sab
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Randy T,
I plan on running a 49 way stick with Flloyd's rotary adapter into a Druin interface board and then into your GPWiz49. We were discussing this on another thread and saw that the Druin needs 5 volts of power. Could i run a second wire from the Wiz49 into the Druin?
Thanks,
Steve
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I was looking at the spec sheet of the holes for the 49-way, and it looks like it will drop right into a Street Fighter Anniversary edition stick. Seeing that that stick has quick disconnects, its should be pretty easy to wire up. A guide to taking it apart is at:
http://www.arcadestickmonk.com/SFACmod.html
Most EBgames still has these sticks for $60. So that plus $30 for the 49-way and $20 for the eco gpwiz will give you one heck of a joystick for $110 ($10 more than X-arcade). I think this is gonna be my first project (yey, no more keyboard playing)
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We were discussing this on another thread and saw that the Druin needs 5 volts of power. Could i run a second wire from the Wiz49 into the Druin?
It depends on the current draw. But I'll say that it should be fine.
RandyT
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um, you need more than quick disconnects to hook up the 49-way. i hope you don't think you can just unhook the current joystick and stick the new one in. if you do end up doing this project, you'll end up with two wires coming out, one for the 49-way/gpwiz, and the second for the original hookup. or i guess you could use the gpwiz for the buttons and still have only one cord...
good luck anyways.
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I was looking at the spec sheet of the holes for the 49-way, and it looks like it will drop right into a Street Fighter Anniversary edition stick. Seeing that that stick has quick disconnects, its should be pretty easy to wire up. A guide to taking it apart is at:
http://www.arcadestickmonk.com/SFACmod.html
Most EBgames still has these sticks for $60. So that plus $30 for the 49-way and $20 for the eco gpwiz will give you one heck of a joystick for $110 ($10 more than X-arcade). I think this is gonna be my first project (yey, no more keyboard playing)
Yep, what Flinkly said, you'll have to scrap the original SFAE guts and it won't work with the PS2 anymore, but it should be a cool mod. BTW, you might need a larger center hole, see the mounting template thread elsewhere on this forum.
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Most EBgames still has these sticks for $60. So that plus $30 for the 49-way and $20 for the eco gpwiz will give you one heck of a joystick for $110 ($10 more than X-arcade). I think this is gonna be my first project (yey, no more keyboard playing)
Don't forget your rotary adapter ;)
I must say that Randy really has made an interface for a stick that can finally serve all my purposes. I know others have asked for ball tops, but I'm more than happy with a 49-way, a GP-Wiz, and a rotary adapter. I don't have to open my CP anymore to switch modes.
Thank you Randy.
<bows to Randy>
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RandyT,
Where is my ball top replacement, dammit?
KenToad
*Edit* Patiently Waiting, like for everything else good in life.
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Where is my ball top replacement, dammit?
Waiting for a quote. Should come in Monday, at which time I get to decide on how many to stick my neck out for.
In other words, they are still coming, just not as quickly as I would like. :(
RandyT
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If you put out a ball top for the 49-Way, what is left for you to do?
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Yeah, that'd be amazing.
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Where are the balltops? ;)
So, for my next cab, all I need are 2 49-way sticks and the GPWiz? No IPAC needed? The GPWiz has enough extra inputs for all my buttons/coin door/etc?
Anyone try the rotary interface yet? Does it work with an Opti-Pac?
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Where are the balltops?
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How do you love it markrvp?
I'm itchin' for the Retroblast review. I wish I could put my 49way+rotary together now, then I'd write the review! :o
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That rotary adapter is great. Personally, I feel it's one of the best things to come along in the joystick world. Every joystick has it's pros and cons but this adapter has advantages that far outweigh the petty cons I've seen come across this board. This along with the wiz, really does do away with the need for modular, multiple joystick setups. Get a balltop with a trigger and you've got the most versatile joystick out there (though as of this moment, the 49-way with the wiz and the rotary adapter is pretty darn close). I'll put it to you this way, I'm gonna have quite a few things to put up on the BST boards in the next couple of days...
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How do you love it markrvp?
I'm itchin' for the Retroblast review.
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Where are the balltops? ;)
So, for my next cab, all I need are 2 49-way sticks and the GPWiz? No IPAC needed? The GPWiz has enough extra inputs for all my buttons/coin door/etc?
Anyone try the rotary interface yet? Does it work with an Opti-Pac?
You need two (2) GP-Wiz 49s, one for each joystick. Each one has 23 additional non-shifted inputs, so that gives you 46 buttons you can add to the panel with no keyboard encoder needed.
Fl0yd's rotary adapter works well. It is a mechanical rotary adapter instead of optical rotary, so it does not interface to the Optipac. To interface it you will need a Druin's Interface Board (which is what most of us have done) or use analog MAME and wire each rotary lead to its own input on the GP-Wiz 49 (which I understand won't actually work with Ikari Warriors).
Thanks for the reply! Now i just to figure out what the difference is between the Eco and Max version. The website has the exact same description for both! ???
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I have a few impressions over on my project thread, the Gargantuan Multi-Williams inspired Bartop with Dual Rotary 49-Ways. I'm still in the testing phase, so nothing final yet.
Cheers,
KenToad
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Thanks for the reply! Now i just to figure out what the difference is between the Eco and Max version. The website has the exact same description for both!
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After spending 2 hours reading this thread...has anyone come to a solution for automatic mode switching with the midway 49way and mamewah?...Maybe I missed it, but at this point my eyes are foggy :P
Thanks in advance...
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After spending 2 hours reading this thread...has anyone come to a solution for automatic mode switching with the midway 49way and mamewah?...Maybe I missed it, but at this point my eyes are foggy :P
Thanks in advance...
Only things I've seen:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,35927.0.html
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,35681.0.html